[MicroBalrog]

Did you note that last half-century had more weird hobbyists than ever before?

Bikers, plane modelists, re-enactors, role-players, goths, cellphone-throwers, gun nuts, wargamers, filksters, trekkies, and so on.

Now, weirdos, hobbyists and geeks are in my experience more tolerant and freedom-loving than the average Joe.

Do you think this tendency is good news for freedom?

[dischord]

1) Most of the things you mention are not weird (and some of the weird ones are not hobbies, but I quibble).

2) How do you know that weird hobbies increased? Have you studied the hobbies of earlier time and compared the number of hobbies and number of participants? Try reading about some of the avocations of even the supposedly stuffy Victorians -- some pretty outlandish stuff.

3) I've met some pretty intolerant geeks and weirdoes in my time.

4) Welfare still is evil theft and anyone who supports it is an enemy of liberty, no matter how weird her hobby. ;)

[MicroBalrog]

1) Most of the things you mention are not weird (and some of the weird ones are not hobbies, but I quibble).


Never even claimed all of these are hobbies. All of those are weird/non-mainstream.


Try reading about some of the avocations of even the supposedly stuffy Victorians -- some pretty outlandish stuff.

With the "stuffy Victorians" it was mostly restricted to the ruling class IIRC.


3) I've met some pretty intolerant geeks and weirdoes in my time.

I'm now trying to write a book about all the various geeks I met.


4) Welfare still is evil theft and anyone who supports it is an enemy of liberty, no matter how weird her hobby.

Merci.
:evil:

[dischord]

All of those are weird/non-mainstream. No they are not. Making model planes, for example, is downright Boy Scout-ish. But the question remains: on what do you base your premise that weird avocations have increased?

[Balog]

What exactly is a "cellphone-thrower" or a "filkster?"

[MicroBalrog]

Cellphone throwing - an organised sport in which the winner is the one who can throw a Cellphone a bigger distance. The world championship is held in Finland annually.

Filkster - one who listens to filk (NOT folk) music.

Dischord - not so if you're 20+ and let it take over half your income.

My premise is based on the size of the companies that cater to those hobbies and the size of clubs, etc.

Consider: The amount of companies selling role-playing sourcebooks, the amount of magazines on the various hobbies/lifestyels, and some of the partial evidence on the amount of paricipants.

(The first annual LARPG in Russia (the Hobbit Games 1990) attracted 127 participants. In 1998 a comparative event (HG-1998 attracted 1500 people and from 750-1050 came in 2000 as the organisers ran the game with an extremely limited amount of participants. No numbers are available for years 99 to 2003. Russian gamers have gotten to where they almost have their own culture. According to some experts, they will eventually evolve into a sub-nation like the Cossaks)

(In 2004, the Anthrocon-2004 (subgenre of gamin I think) convention hits record attendance of 1949 people)

(
Biker convention has record attendance (http://www.motorcycle-network.com/motorcyclenewsdetail/id=178/newsarticle178.htm) )

[Balog]

I've played quite a few RPG's here and there. Known a good many computer nerds too. For the most part, they don't care about politics or freedom. As long as the fed.gov isn't interfering with them pretending to kill orcs they are apathetic. Tho I suppose the "Tax the internet" type proposals might shake em up.

[geekWithA.45]

Kopel and Reynolds on geeks, wargames, liberty and guns:

http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel100101.shtml

Military history is widely admired among geeks. So is skill with firearms. As an article in Salon noted a while back, geeks tend to be strong gun-rights enthusiasts, regarding both computers and firearms as technologies that empower the individual. Geeks, who know that they can program their VCR, also believe themselves capable of cleaning a gun safely.

The simple fact is that those who are "geeks" tend also to be concentrations of any of a number of competencies, and history is largely influenced by the competent.

[dischord]

Micro,

Growing popularity of RPGs is not evidence that there are more weird hobbies than in the past. It may simply be that one weird avocation is taking over another weird avocation.

(Incidentally, I have the original soft-cover D&D instructions (circa 1975) by Gary Gygax somewhere in a box in the basement. They predate even the simple boxed game and use only six sided dice. The pages are only 4-1/4 by 11 and total only about 50 pages for all three books.)

[Ian]

Computer afficionados at least are IMO a growing pro-freedom group (and have been for years). For details, see A Portrait of J. Random Hacker (http://www.camtp.uni-mb.si/books/jargon/html/appendixb.html).

[MicroBalrog]

Growing popularity of RPGs is not evidence that there are more weird hobbies than in the past

This was only one of the examples given (and the Russian "gaming" community involves more than just gamers).

See also the keyboard/cellphone-throwers, goths, heavy-metal types, neo-druids, neo-pagans, Hackers (thanks, Ian), pornographers, etc.

[dischord]

Once again, you really haven't answered the question: On what do you base your premise that odd avocations have increased?

The growing size of companies/clubs may simply be due to growning population.

Also you haven't factored in -- or even investigated AFAIK -- odd avocations that have waned. Perhaps the growth simply reflects the shift from one weird pasttime to another. Maybe the guys who 40 years ago would have spent hours in the garage tinkering with not-so-street-legal hotrods now are hacking. Maybe the dope-smoking, zoot-suit wearing hepcats simply begat hippies who begat goths.

[BigG]

Could it also be a function of more free time and more disposable income?

[MicroBalrog]

Russia's population is not growing fast enough for an x10 increase.

And hippies still exist.:D

Of course my research is very rough, but it just looks that way. :D

[MicroBalrog]

Could it also be a function of more free time and more disposable
income?

That is my suspicion, but what will be the result of it?

[Oleg Volk]

Well, filking alternative-lifestyle sysadmining weirdos did have a lot with me getting into guns...

[dischord]

Russia's population is not growing fast enough for an x10 increase. Make sure you are not looking for a single cause where many may be behind the phenomenon. Perhaps Russians simply have moved in droves from underground naked Cossack-dancing-in-Jello clubs to RPG clubs. Fads change.

Also make sure you are not confusing the direction of cause and effect. Assuming that your premise of increased loopy behavior is correct (it may not be) is more freedom allowing more odd behavior or is more odd behavior pushing the envelope of freedom?

Similarly, make sure you are not forgetting “closeting.” Perhaps people are just more open about odd behavior, but the numbers of practioners remain the same.And hippies still exist. So do dope-smoking, zoot-suit wearing hepcats, but they and the hippies are waning as the goths and whatnot are waxing. The new replaces the old, but maybe the numbers remain the same.Of course my research is very rough, but it just looks that way. Many Americans believe the U.S. has a growing violence problem despite 10 years of amazing decline in violence (some categories cut nearly in half). My point? People's perception can get skewed by increasing media attention to things that actually are declining or stable. The number of media outlets exploded in the past decade or two. News that sells = violence and man-bites-dog stories (such as odd pastimes). Certainly the number of TV shows celebrating the bizarre have proliferated in the past five years or so.

Perhaps we're simply more aware of the odd behavior than in the past, but it doesn't really occur with greater frequency.

[MicroBalrog]

is more freedom allowing more odd behavior or is more odd behavior pushing the envelope of freedom?

We DON'T have more freedom now than in 1933, now do we?:banghead:


Perhaps Russians simply have moved in droves from underground naked Cossack-dancing-in-Jello clubs to RPG clubs. Fads change.

Because very little "weird activities" existed in pre-1990 USSR?:neener:

Perhaps we're simply more aware of the odd behavior than in the past, but it doesn't really occur with greater frequency.

How would we find out?

[dischord]

We DON'T have more freedom now than in 1933, now do we? Well, it depends on the activity. I cannot easily buy an NFA weapon, but I can go down to the local bookstore and buy a copy of James Joyce's Finnegan's Wake (or was it his Ulysses that was banned in the U.S.?). I no longer can give an unlimited sum to the candidate of my choice, but I can date a black woman without fear of retribution (well ... I could before I got married ... there'd be plenty of retribution now no matter my date's skin color.);)Because very little "weird activities" existed in pre-1990 USSR? Sez who? What's your evidence?How would we find out? Research. Lots and lots of research.

Sources like Ripley's Believe It or Not and Guinness Book of World Records might be starting points.

Also look for books/websites describing old fads. Few swallow goldfish anymore, but they did in droves in the 1920s and it certainly was odd. Perhaps the goldfish swallowers are the grandparents of the cellphone throwers.

Also considers outlet for odd behavior other than just pastimes -- In the U.S. at least, we used to have a lot of bizarre religious practices, running the gamut from Qu/Shakers to snake handlers. Don't forget such people in your search for the weird in the past. Mayhap the snake handlers begat the neo-druids.

[MicroBalrog]

Few swallow goldfish anymore, but they did in droves in the 1920s and it certainly was odd

From what I've read, goldfish-swallowing (and lobster-walking) was an affair for the rich and affluent only.

Sez who? What's your evidence?

Joseph Brodsky's memoirs, my father's accounts, and the Grand Dictionary of Soviet Slang.

[dischord]

Joseph Brodsky's memoirs, my father's accounts, and the Grand Dictionary of Soviet Slang. The first two are merely anecdotal. I'm not sure what slang has to do with evidence of odd behavior. From what I've read, goldfish-swallowing (and lobster-walking) was an affair for the rich and affluent only. Well, if true, then their poor cousins were snake handling. My point about shifting weird fads still stands no matter the differences between the quirks of the rich and the quirks of the poor. It looks like you've got a lot of researh ahead of you.

[mtnbkr]

Now, weirdos, hobbyists and geeks are in my experience more tolerant and freedom-loving than the average Joe

Not my experience. Geeks as a whole only support freedom that allows them to continue whatever hobby/activity they've discovered, not freedom that allows YOU to live as you want.

For example, the geek community over at Slashdot (I have been a member so long, I have a 4 digit ID number) wants Freedom of Speech for ideas they agree with , but disagree with them and they'll shout you down like any other Democrat.

They believe in Freedom from Religion. Unless it's paganism or athiesm, religion is oppression.

Don't even start on the 2nd Amendment...

No, not everyone over there is like that, but you get my point.

Chris

[Werewolf]

Bikers, plane modelists, re-enactors, role-players, goths, cellphone-throwers, gun nuts, wargamers, filksters, trekkies, and so on.

Micro - with all due respect and no flame intended - BITE ME!

During my 52 years on the planet I've been a Biker, a plane modelist, a role player, a gun nut and a wargamer. I still regularly participate in 3 of the aforementioned activities.

I can assure you that I'm no geek - unless you can define someone who makes more money than 75% of the population of the US, has never commited a crime, has impacted the business practices of an international corporation, has raised 3 daughters each of whom is a fine adult, served his nation for 13 years in the armed forces and is happier than all get out with his current state of affairs as a geek.

I submit you've got a funny idea of what makes someone a geek and what types of activities are weird.

Tell us - what hobbies and activities you indulge in so we can all judge you.

[fix]

For example, the geek community over at Slashdot (I have been a member so long, I have a 4 digit ID number) wants Freedom of Speech for ideas they agree with , but disagree with them and they'll shout you down like any other Democrat.

Bingo. Haven't been to /. in over a year because of this. It's not much more than a high tech DU.

[MicroBalrog]

Tell us - what hobbies and activities you indulge in so we can all judge you.

Role-player (LARPs, too!)
Gun nut
Modern history afficionado
Music collector (Russian military)
ex-AFV modelist (due to inavaliability of model kits)
Internet addict

[MicroBalrog]

I'm not sure what slang has to do with evidence of odd behavior

Language reflects society.:D

[Hal]

Language reflects society
Plato phrased it a bit differently.

"So Damon tells me, and I can quite believe him; he says that when modes of music change, the fundamental laws of the State always change with them..."

Plato - The Republic Part 4"

Same concept though I guess.

[The Scandinavian]

I imagine it's more to do with the fact that people seem to relate to smaller communities more easily.

In a society of many millions, forming smaller 'tribal' groups, creates systems more like those which humans are naturally comfortable to deal with.

It's huge cities where no-one knows their neighbour that are the REALLY wierd thing.

T.S.

[dischord]

Language reflects society. But it is a non sequitur to say that slang is evidence of odd behavior. Or – to your point about the Russian slang dictionary – that lack of slang is evidence of lack of weird avocations.

For example, wealthy Victorians had little slang AFAIK, but lots of odd behavior as you noted. OTOH, working-class Cockney folk had rich slang, but did this go along with bizarre pastimes? I don’t know.

You've responded more than once that weird pastimes 75+ years ago were the perview of the elite. Yet the elite 75+ years ago were the ones least likely to have slang -- or, at least, they had much less slang.