[Matt_B]

Hello everyone,

I'm a new member to this board but I've been posting for a little while over at AR15.com and HK Pro.com. Now that I've introduced myself, on to business.

I've been shooting for about a little over a year now (AR15, HK94A3, USP-45, USP-9 and 92FS). I'm going to be getting my first bolt action rifle in a month or two and I've decided on a Remington 700P in .308. Most of the time I'll be bench shooting this rifle at 100 yds but will probably work my way up to 200 then 300 yds (the max at my range). My shooting buddy has pretty much the same rifle (Remington 700VS) and it's a damn accurate rifle out of the box. Then again, he's been shooting for about half his live (13-14 yrs).

Now, I know enough to know that a more accurate rifle is not going to make me a better shooter. Only trigger time will do that. That's why I've been hitting the range every 2 weeks for 3.5 hours (it's an hour drive each way so I have to make it count). I had planned on ordering my rifle through Impact Guns out of Utah. They offer an accurizing package for bolt action rifles. Here's a link to show exactly what's included in that package:

http://www.impactguns.com/store/accurizing_package.html

To be blunt, I don't know what some of that stuff really does. And, I should mention, I probably don't want a 2 lb trigger. I don't know what the factory trigger pull is on the 700P but my HK-94 is 4.25 lbs ( done by Williams Trigger Specialties) and that's about as light as I would want it to be.

So, what do you more experienced bolt-action shooters think of this package? Based upon what I've told you, do you think it's worth it or not?

Thanks in advance,

Matt B.

[bogie]

Package includes:
True up the action, bolt and recoil lug
Check all threads and clean up as needed
Pillar bed (or glass bed if the gun has an aluminum block)
Trigger work, 2 lbs
Set back barrrel and re-chamber with Match reamer
Check crown with scope and re-crown if necessary

Truing the action will help.

Pillar bedding is good.

Replace the trigger. Trust me. 2 pounds is HEAVY.

The orginal barrel will not be greatly improved, if at all, by a new chamber. A recrowning will generally help, but again, it's a factory barrel.

Look at the accuracy gunsmiths at www.benchrest.com. I was you, I'd save some more, and get a truing job that includes a barrel replacement with a match grade barrel.

Arnold Jewell's triggers really rock.

[Matt_B]

Thanks for the response bogie.

From your response, it seems like some of the package is worth it and some it has little value.

I've actually got a Jewell trigger in my AR-15 and I love it. I had planned on getting one in the Remington somewhere down the line but not right off the bat. To be blunt, I don't know what the pull weight on my AR is but I do know that it surprises me more often than not :)

I don't think I'd bother replacing the barrel until either:
A - I notice it's inherent inaccuracy

or

B - I wear out the original.

Again, thanks for the info. Much appreciated. I may just skip the accurizing package and get a Jewell trigger installed instead. At least that way, I know what I'm getting for the money.

[redneck2]

trying to get the most accuracy out of a 700 Sendero

Talked with quite a few guys, including Charlie Sisk, who makes some pretty good rifles

Charlie sez...shoot it first. If it shoots great, go with it. If not, start spending some money. His advice was that you can true the action, and it may help, but the limiting factor is typically the barrel

FWIW...there is probably no one here (or most other places) that know more about accuracy than Bogie.

[echo3mike]

I'll try to tell you a little about what the stuff they offer does and then get into my experience (FWIW).

Trueing the action (often called blueprinting) will decrease the tolerances of the reciever and barrel for a more exact fit between the two. The same goes for the bolt and reciever. Often the factory assembly process is a little off, and the result is less accuracy. Lately, the Rem plant seems to be letting some rifles off the line with questionable QC.

Setting the bbl back and recutting the chamber means just that...they'll take a little off the chamber area (which might be a problem if the Remy's didn't have such a long throat to begin with) and then make the chamber match SAMMI guidlines more exactly than the factory bbl.

Checking and recutting the crown will also do just what it says...they'll look at the crown and recut it if there is any deformity noted. A poorly cut or damaged muzzle crown can have a serious impact on accuracy.

Bedding the stock will insure a more precise fit between the reciever group and the stock by using a layer of fiberglass or other material, even if the stock has an aluminium bedding block. A loose fit between the two will hinder repeatability and consistant POI.


My experience with tune ups occured about a year ago, when I sent a fairly new VS to Iron Brigade Armory for their tune up package. I posted the results on TFL as a kind of reveiw about the experience and the results of the upgrades. At the time, it seemed to be a good idea and I was pleased with the results.

After a while, I kind of realized that all the alterations that IBA did (and did exceptionally well, BTW) weren't really needed. The trigger group on the VS was crud and they relaced / repaired the faulty parts. They didn't perform any of the "blueprinting" type accurizing, or recut the bbl threads and on a bbl that's already mated to a reciever, it's probably just as well since it has the potential to alter the fit between the two. The scope mount offered was again top of the line, but for the type of shooting I was doing at the time, a little over the top.

I answered this kind of question on a thread at Sniper's Hide (http://216.219.200.59/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=17&t=000078) (with links to IBA and the original TFL topic) , but to sumarize, the package really didn't alter the accuracy of an already accurate rifle. The difference in group size before and after was statistically insignificant and the remaining work had no notable effect on either accuracy or overall performance. In short, the only thing needed was a trigger job.

IMHO, I would strongly suggest that unless your out-of-the-box rifle is really a looser, I might do a little trigger work and invest the money in ammo, range time and maybe a trip to Badlands or Storm Mountain. Shoot the bbl out and THEN go for an accurizing package (or have Jeff Hicks (http://members.tripod.com/Hicksdesigns) or George Gardner (http://www.gaprecision.net/index.html) install a new bbl along with a package). By that point, the rifle will need some work anyway, you'll know what the rifle and you are capable of shooting, and you'll have learned how to shoot better.

The Rem700 PSS / VS is usually a good shooter. You can find one plus a decent scope and mounts for alot less than what IG is probably asking. Take it out, break it in, and shoot the holy livin' heck out of it. From my experience, I think I would have been better served in investing in becoming a better Marksman than having an "accurized" accurate rifle.

YMMV
S.

[Matt_B]

echomike3, thank you for the very detailed response.

It sounds like I can just have the smith at my local range go over the rifle to make sure nothing is inherently wrong with it that will make it less accurate. Essentially, just have him do a final QC on it.

Beyond that, I know I want a lighter trigger than the factory job but a Jewell trigger would probably be overkill at this point. My AR-15 came with it stock - I didn't ask for it but it sure is nice. I figure if I get the trigger weight (of the Remington_ dropped down to 2.5-3 lbs, I will be good to go. The funny thing is I just found out the pull weight of the Jewell trigger on my AR-15 is 4 lbs. The pull weight on my HK-94 is 4.25 but it feels a heck of a lot more stiff then the AR. I guess that's why the Jewell trigger runs around $200 :)

Now, as far as a scope goes, I've got that covered with a Leupold Vari-X III 3.5x10x40 "Tactical" model (it's tactical because it's flat black...woo hoo!!!) with a duplex reticle. I know some day I will probably want a mil-dot reticle but I'll worry about that when I get there. Probably more scope than I need but from what I hear, you shouldn't skimp on optics...so I didn't.

As far as price goes, Impact seems to be in the ballpark ($720-$760) of other dealers or at least the ones I have checked into. I was planning on sending them my scope, having them bore sight the rifle, give it a trigger job and ship it to my local FFL. If you know of a reputable dealer with a better price, please let me know.

Again, thank you for the info. I can go to bed now because I have learned something today :)

[echo3mike]

No, your scope is fine. In fact, it's the same scope I had on my VS for a couple of years. Had a couple of issues, but overall a pretty decent scope. When you're ready, have Premier Reticles, Ltd. (http://www.premierreticles.com) change the reticle from the duplex to their Gen II reticle...I had them change out the duplex on my scope: excellent quality, insanly fast turn around time, fair price. And they're Leupold "certified": any work done by PR won't negate the warranty.

If you're planning on doing any long range, you'll need a mount with additional elevation machined into the base. Mounts like the Badger Ordnance Picatinney rail type base, Ken Farrell's rail, or IBA's Unertl type mount. The Vari-X III only has about 50 MOA ele adjustment, and you'll use up alot of this on a flat mount.

You can probably go to Gun Finder (http://www.gunfinder.net) and get a better price: dealer cost +10%. Or if you're patient or don't mind a used rifle, try Guns America (http://www.gunsamerica.com) . Found my VS NIB for $550. Hard to complain about that. The scope mounting and sighting in you can do yourself, and probably the trigger work too, although someone with more experience doing the trigger work might not be a bad idea. I think you'll find 2.5 - 3.5 lbs plenty light, especially if its a good crisp break.

After that, just the recommended Remington break-in, then spend the next few months shooting the barrel out. Then you can replace the barrel with one that doesn't stink and get all the bells and whistles at the same time.


Regards,
S.

[BHP9]

To be blunt, I don't know what some of that stuff really does. And, I should mention, I probably don't want a 2 lb trigger. I don't know what the factory trigger pull is on the 700P but my HK-94 is 4.25 lbs ( done by Williams Trigger Specialties) and that's about as light as I would want it to be.

So, what do you more experienced bolt-action shooters think of this package? Based upon what I've told you, do you think it's worth it or not?

First let me state that any trigger over 2 ounces is way to heavy in a bolt gun. My Ar15 is set at 6 ounces but this is as light as I can go in an automatic. My bolt guns all have 2 ounce triggers.

Don't get sucked into buying the special tactical rifle. You can save a lot of money and get as good as accuracy out of an ordindary run of the mill no frills heavy barrel rifle. All you need is a good glass bedding job, a light trigger and a high quality scope like you already possess.

Lets face it the average Joe is a sand bag shooter not a rifleman. For ths type of plinking you do not need a fancy tactical stock.

Now on the other hand if you plan on becoming a real rifleman then you will need an adjustable stock and you will need to shoot in NRA national match 3 position competition. Believe me it will be for more interesting and satsifying than plinking off of sand bags. Although tactical style rifles can be used in this type of competition you will soon find out from fellow shooters what options are really needed to shoot in the field without using a bipod for a crutch. An adjustable hand stop and rail are a must. The custom or semi-custom match rifle is really the way to go because it can be used as a tactical rifle if needed where as the tactical rifle is often not suted for the really demanding type of shooting that requires one to shoot offand, sitting and prone without the aid of a bi-pod although a bi-pod can be added to it. ONce you are a real rifleman you probably will not even want a bipod or have any use for one.

Just remember the no frills Savage, Remington, or Winchester heavy barrel has all the inherent accuracy you will ever need or want and they shoot every bit as accurate as the exotic tactital rifles with all of their bells and whistles. I have seen some people spend as high as $3,000 dollars for some of these foreign prima donna rifles and they shot no better than the traditional American standby's.

Just remember you must feed the rifle in question match grade ammo. It is of no use to spend money on a great rifle and then feed it something like military surplus garbage.

I have seen more than one person become bored very fast when shooting off of sand bags but when put to the supreme challenge of shooting in the standing, sitting and prone positions their interest in this type of shooting often lasts a lifetime and they do not even think of trading off their rifle for the lastest and greatest new wonder rifle that just hit the market.

By the way Remington does make National Match style rifles (40x) for three position shooting that are ready to go but they do cost a lot more money than their standard grade heavy barrel rifle which can be modified for way less money if one plans on using them in competition.

[Matt_B]

Wow, my head is spinning. So much info, so little brainpower :)

Anyway, from the sounds of it, a 2-3 lb trigger will be fine for me now. I would rather err on the side of safety and get a trigger that's a little too heavy than a little too light. I'm still used to shooting DA pistols with 11 lbs triggers so 2-3 lbs will feel like nothing.

I know ammo is going to make a big difference so I planned on getting some good match grade stuff. Hadn't looked into anything specific but Federal comes to mind. Nothing too expensive and nothing too cheap.

I've already got a couple of tactical rifles (my AR and HK) so I definitely wasn't planning on making a bolt-action tac rifle :) I just like the 700P because it's all black. Sounds stupid but it's true. I just want a simple rifle that's a little more accurate than I am so I can grow into a bit. The reasons for all my questions is I want to make sure I know what to look for and avoid any problems. I just want to make sure the rifle doesn't cause me to shoot worse.

BHP9, I had looked at some of those $3000 dollar custom rifles myself and realized that I definitely didn't need anything like that. I couldn't tell the difference between 99% of the custom features so I stopped looking at those real quick.

So, I'm going to look at the Remington 700VS. That's exactly what my shooting buddy has and it seems like more than enough rifle for me without being overkill. Echo3mike, thanks for the heads up on Gun Finder. I couldn't find a 700P there but I did find the 700VS for $667. As far as a used rifle, I think I would rather spend the extra money and get a new one. At least I'll know where it's been :)

Again, thanks to all of you for the all the great info. I have a lot to think about.

[Steve Smith]

That 700 ought to work really well for you. I used to suggest people look into Savages as well, but I don't anymore. Sure, they're at least as accurate as the 700s on average, but the way the bolt cams really bothers me...just a personal thing. If it doesn't bother you, consder a Savage as well and plan to put a better stock on it and bed it.

The last two paragraphs of E3M's post couldn't be written better. Shoot your rifle a lot, and take each shot seriously. By the time that you can tell that your accuracy is degrading, you'll be ready for a better barrel.

[bogie]

Hey, you're looking to spend some money, and get better accuracy, right?

Buy the *()^)(*^ Jewell trigger, and install it. Don't do anything else.

Spend $100 on shooting, and keep dropping the pull weight. You'll be VERY surprised.

Then, call Brownell's, and order their Steel Bed kit. Rough up the bedding block (that stock _does_ have one, right?), and put on a skim coat. Do it yourself. It ain't that hard.

The trigger ain't gonna "go bad," and it should last you a good long time. You can transfer it to other rifles.

After you get tired of the current barrel/chambering, have it rebarreled, while at the same time having the action trued.

[Matt_B]

Thanks for the advice Bogie. I guess if I have a Jewell trigger in my AR (which groups well but I don't consider it a precision rifle), I should probably have one in my bolt-action rifle which I would consider a precision rifle.

[bogie]

With position shooting (or just about any shooting) a clean and consistent trigger is often the determining factor as to whether a particular shooter can do the job. From an accuracy standpoint, a true receiver and match grade barrel.

Do you handload? If not, take the cash that you woulda spent, buy the trigger and a minimalistic reloading kit, and go from there.

[Matt_B]

Actually, I do not reload and at this point, I don't think I want to get into it. I really need to get in some more trigger time before I start loading my own ammo.