Ball Vs. Hollow Points


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grayhambone
August 22, 2011, 08:39 PM
I want some good opinions here. During winter months where people pile on clothes, would you rather cary ball or hollow point ammo. People pack on the clothes and with a big caliber, like a 45 acp is ball ammo the right choice? 9mm, 357 sig. Feedback on all calibers would be nice to have feedback.
Also, has anyone had any problems with there gun not feeding square end hollow points? I've even heard of people mix and matching in a hi capacity magazine (not really just thought about it).

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kimbershot
August 22, 2011, 09:04 PM
i use ball ammo all the time. 1911 was designed for it, it works, no sense reinventing the wheel. :what:

Pyro
August 22, 2011, 09:06 PM
Hornady Critical Defense works great against soft barriers such as clothing, as does Corbon Powrball. The latest JHP designs take into account a clothing barrier, since it appears to be one of the major factors of whether a JHP bullet will perform as it is designed or not.

I'd take the JHP, even if it clogs and performs as a ball it will still do the damage a ball round can do.

wlewisiii
August 22, 2011, 09:11 PM
158 gr LSWCHP either .38 Special +P or .357 Magnum. Unless winter coats where you come from are made of Kevlar, that will do just fine summer or winter.

Rail Driver
August 22, 2011, 09:12 PM
I use lead SWC in my 1911, HP in my Glock 9mm, and ball in my .25 BUG

Deaf Smith
August 22, 2011, 09:12 PM
I'll use ball if I can pack a .75 cal 1911 or Glock.

Yes Seventy Five caliber.

Don't make one?

Well then I'll stick to good JHPs then.

Deaf

jmr40
August 22, 2011, 09:44 PM
45 hard ball is a poor performer when heavy clothes or barriers are encountered. Good 9mm or 357 Sig are better choices in this situation. Hollow points are prefered in all situations. We no longer live in the 1800's.

481
August 22, 2011, 09:47 PM
This document-

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005garm/tuesday/hudgins.pdf

-presents a mathematical model having an extraordinarily high correlation for predicting the residual velocity of a bullet after it passes through both skin and clothing (of a specified weight).

Even heavily-layered winter clothing is highly unlikely to stop a large caliber FMJ or JHP with a correspondingly large cross-sectional presentation area.

Using the proposed model, a .45ACP 230 gr. FMJ @ 835 fps (or an unexpanded JHP of the same weight) would experience a loss of 46 fps after passing through four layers of 8 ounce denim (as used in the FBI "heavy clothing" test protocol) and would exit that barrier with a velocity of 789 fps.

At that velocity, a .45ACP 230 gr. FMJ is still capable of producing more than two feet of soft tissue penetration. :what:

snooperman
August 22, 2011, 09:49 PM
have given us quite a few great choices in Hollowpoint ammo that will penetrate clothing and still expand adequately. Winchester Ranger, and PDX1, Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot, Corbon and others have passed through several layers of clothing and more than 12" of Ballistic gel in tests performed so as to pass the FBI requirements. This new ammo is by far superior to what most of law enforcement was using 20 years ago and the good news it is available to us too. I personally carry the Winchester Ranger and Gold dot because I want the largest wound channel possible.

PT92
August 22, 2011, 09:51 PM
Personally, I use ball in my 1911 with utter confidence. Yet if I am packing a 9, I will use Federal Expanding FMJ because I think that 9MM can just about match the effectiveness of the 45 with the proper load but not just regular 9mm ball FMJ (just my opinion).

-Cheers

snooperman
August 22, 2011, 09:58 PM
is less effective in stopping power. Most often the FMJ bullet will go completely through the body and may endanger someone else.

jscott
August 22, 2011, 10:32 PM
As a trainer of law enforcement and police, people are often a bit surprised when I don't have a staunch opinion of bullet type. I do have a preference for high quality defensive ammunition, whether it be for a handgun, carbine, or shotgun. However, I am not religious about it.

As an illustration, I am perfectly content leaving a competitive match with the ammunition I used during the match, quite often 115 grain jacketed 9mm rounds. When I get home and have an opportunity to clean the weapon I replace the defensive purpose ammo, but I do not feel undergunned with the target rounds.

I believe that success lies much more in speed and shot placement combined with sound tactics than it does in the particular ammunition loaded in the weapon. That being said, I have a thorough understanding of ballistics and I am a proponent of a defensive caliber (I carry only 9mm or larger). I just do not depend on the design of a round to make the difference to the point of paranoia.

Mike1234567
August 22, 2011, 10:44 PM
The worst that can happen with HP ammo is it will fill with material and not expand... so it acts like ball ammo. At least with HP it "might" expand. That stated, there are calibers for which one may never want to us HP ammo. For instance, I probably would never us HP ammo with a .380 because it might not penetrate deeply enough whereas FMJ probably will. I will with 9mm though.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 22, 2011, 10:45 PM
i use ball ammo all the time. 1911 was designed for it, it works, no sense reinventing the wheel.

Most modern 1911s have already been "reinvented" to use JHP, don't use something inferior.

MedWheeler
August 22, 2011, 11:03 PM
When carrying my PF-9: 115-grain JHP year-round. When carrying a .38 snub (rare): 140-grain JFN. When carrying my Bersa Thunder .380: 88-grain JHP summer months, 95-grain SJFN during the one winter month. When carrying my P-32: 71-grain JFN year-round.

JFN: jacketed flat-nose
SJFN: semi-jacketed flat-nose
JHP: jacketed hollow-point.

Carter
August 22, 2011, 11:05 PM
I'd carry fmj if I didn't have anything else, but I really don't like the idea of using my 9mm ranger nato fmj in public.

I trust my hst hollowpoints to perform. Or else I wouldn't carry them.

PT92
August 22, 2011, 11:11 PM
When carrying my PF-9: 115-grain JHP year-round. When carrying a .38 snub (rare): 140-grain JFN. When carrying my Bersa Thunder .380: 88-grain JHP summer months, 95-grain SJFN during the one winter month. When carrying my P-32: 71-grain JFN year-round.

JFN: jacketed flat-nose
SJFN: semi-jacketed flat-nose
JHP: jacketed hollow-point.
Wow--Kudos for the elaborate research in your ammo selection.

-Cheers

WinThePennant
August 22, 2011, 11:20 PM
I always use FMJ.

My guns are high-quality Sigs, but I still leave nothing to chance. I always want my defense pistols to shoot.

Besides, I like penetration. Break into my house, and hiding behind a wall isn't going to save you.

JTQ
August 22, 2011, 11:36 PM
I think modern hollow points are superior to ball.

However, the guy to your left doesn't carry a gun, the guy to your right has a pocket .380. Just about anything you have in your 9MM, .40S&W, or .45ACP is better than what they have.

Loosedhorse
August 22, 2011, 11:47 PM
During winter months where people pile on clothes, would you rather cary ball or hollow point ammo.Common misconception. With heavy clothing, as simulated by the FBI's 4-layer denim test, most hollow points clog, and act like FMJ in terms of no expansion, and thorough-to-excessive penetration. (Yes, I am aware that some feel there is no such thing as excessive penetration).

To me, the change that Winter asks for is in caliber choice, or projectile-weight choice. I might feel pretty good about a .380 HP or 10mm 125gr load in the summer; I might up that to a 38 Special +P HP and 10mm 175gr load in the winter.i use ball ammo all the time. 1911 was designed for itAnd if you're using a 1911 built in 1911 for SD (:what:), ball is probably the right choice. But 1911s and their ammo have changed just a tad in the last 100 years, so I'm not sure why I'd decide to ignore those advances with my life on the line.

Perhaps those who use the .357 should stick with 158gr SWCs: that's the load that the .357 was designed around. ;)

Jason_G
August 22, 2011, 11:54 PM
I use JHP for carry (.45 ACP 1911). Always. Choosing to use ball is like choosing to go the prom with your sister. There are better options.

There are some obvious situations where ball is better suited to certain tasks, but I can't think of any that apply to CCW.

Example: When slaughtering pigs, I will use ball because I know it will penetrate the skull well, but I have all day to make a perfect shot on the hog that is in the trap and has nowhere to go. In a CCW encounter, you would be aiming for COM on a moving target where time is of the essence, and you would want expansion on your side for every hit you make. It might only be a minor help, but in that situation, you want all the help you can get.

Jason

CraigC
August 23, 2011, 12:09 AM
Hardball is a pitiful stopper and terrible for self defense. Nobody who ever put one through flesh would carry it for self defense. The military uses it because they have to, not because it's the best choice.

RevolvingGarbage
August 23, 2011, 05:12 AM
I carry Winchester PDX1 in .45ACP because it is available, I know it is a hot load, and as a great bonus, it has exhibited picture perfect expansion in all of the testing ive done. The .38 Special PDX1 loading also works excellently, and I have kept the gun loaded with it in the past, but I don't have any right now so my .38 is loaded with my own load, a 125gr hardcast FP over 4.1gr bullseye.

If I need to use either gun to defend myself, I am equally confident that any of the loads mentioned would be quite effective enough, regardless of the time of year/thickness of clothing my attacker might be wearing (excluding body armor, obviously).

scythefwd
August 23, 2011, 06:16 AM
snooperman - If you are shooting just about anything 9mm and up you're going to run into that issue. My .40 s&w has that issue. One of the best ways to stop someone is a cns hit... the next best way is blood loss... You want more holes (entry and BIG exit) to bleed out more quickly. Any caliber whose bullets reliably stop inside a bad gun isn't going to be a reliable stopper.

Darebear
August 23, 2011, 06:38 AM
How's the saying go? "They all fall to .45 hardball". Lol, not true but pretty catchy.

My 2 cents. Keep it simple. I don't think changes in season should bring about anxiety in your carry load. The FBI tests HP with 4 layers of denim... I'd say they know what they are doing. If you're worried go with the nastiest meanest stuff on the market which I think is Corbon.

My carry load. 8+1 rounds of Winchester Ranger 230 grain JHP (Hk45c). I recently stumbled upon a box of Winchester Ranger +P 230 grain loads and brought it just cause. Maybe I'll switch to that later. Does anyone know anything about the 230grain +P Ranger?

snooperman
August 23, 2011, 08:49 AM
that stays in the body does not cause enough bleeding". Really? I beg to differ. Just the opposite is true. Hollowpoint bullets make a larger wound channel that crushes body tissue and causes more bleeding, hence will stop the attacker faster. I stand firm in that statement supported by much evidence. Ball ammo willl not prooduce a larger wound cavity and will often punch a small hole through the body with very little bleeding taking place unless it hits a major internal blood vessel. Also you have a greater chance of hittinng an innocent bystander when the bullet overpenetrates with ball ammo. The military uses ball because they have to.

Don357
August 23, 2011, 09:15 AM
I personally carry a mag of each and have practiced "quick reloading". If there's a need for extensive penetration, I drop the mag loaded with HP's and insert a mag loaded with FMJ's. I carry a FEG GKK .45acp and/or a Kel-Tec P-11 9mm.

CraigC
August 23, 2011, 10:17 AM
Just the opposite is true.
Two holes bleed better than one. Period. You just don't want a narrow hole poked with hardball. A bullet that exits will almost always incapacitate quicker than one that does not.

mdauben
August 23, 2011, 11:00 AM
Two holes bleed better than one. Period.
Ever heard of "internal bleeding"? People die from that all the time, often quite quickly. Aside from that, blood loss is not the only mechanism that causes an agressor to stop attacking (which is after all the whole point of defensive shooting)

A bullet that exits will almost always incapacitate quicker than one that does not.
Do you have anything to back this up, other than your personal opinion? Almost every piece of experimental and anechdotal evidence I have ever seen says otherwise.

USAF_Vet
August 23, 2011, 11:07 AM
Right now I have 114 gr JHP in my S&W 469. I'm upgrading to 124gr after this box is used up. I don't hate FMJ, I use it as my practice ammo. I ran a few tests on some scrap Kevlar last week, and the 114gr JHP did not penetrate, where the FMJ blew clean through it, the plywood upright and into the dirt berm behind it all.

I know not a lot of muggers are running around in Kevlar, but it made me stop and think.

I'm sticking with JHP in my carry 9mm, but keeping a mag of FMJ in the back-up.
Same with my .45

Mike1234567
August 23, 2011, 11:39 AM
Right now I have 114 gr JHP in my S&W 469. I'm upgrading to 124gr after this box is used up. I don't hate FMJ, I use it as my practice ammo. I ran a few tests on some scrap Kevlar last week, and the 114gr JHP did not penetrate, where the FMJ blew clean through it, the plywood upright and into the dirt berm behind it all.

I know not a lot of muggers are running around in Kevlar, but it made me stop and think.

I'm sticking with JHP in my carry 9mm, but keeping a mag of FMJ in the back-up.
Same with my .45
Makes good sense to me.

CraigC
August 23, 2011, 11:58 AM
Almost every piece of experimental and anechdotal evidence I have ever seen says otherwise.
Ever shot a hog, only to have the entry wound close up while you watch him run half a mile into the swamp??? We hunt with cast bullets not because they are cheap but because they are almost guaranteed to work. Why? Because two holes bleed better than one. The body is a vaccuum. Make a hole, it will bleed. Make two holes, it will bleed more. You know the old trick of pouring oil out of a metal oil can? Two holes. Same concept.


Aside from that, blood loss is not the only mechanism that causes an agressor to stop attacking...
Are we talking about brain shots or baseball bats now???

481
August 23, 2011, 12:23 PM
Why? Because two holes bleed better than one. The body is a vaccuum. Make a hole, it will bleed. Make two holes, it will bleed more. You know the old trick of pouring oil out of a metal oil can? Two holes. Same concept.


Actually, the human body (specifically the vascular system) is a pressurized system.

Once you breach or violate the containment of the system with a penetrating or lacerating wound, blood will be forced out under that pressure unless something like subcutaneous fat or another soft/hard tissue or coagulation obstructs the flow and halts the process of exsanguination (bleeding out).

Depending upon where a wound occurs, surrounding tissue may displace and obstruct blood flow at both the point of projectile entry and/or exit. Internal bleeding may continue despite this mechanism especially if a highly vascularized organ (e.g.: the liver, kidneys) or large vessel (e.g.: aorta, illiac artery) is struck.

medic-rod
August 23, 2011, 12:24 PM
Aguila 45 acp iq ammo. 117gr. Super high velocity over 1400 fps and devastating on soft target. In my p-90 i would never use ball for s.d.

snooperman
August 23, 2011, 12:31 PM
There is much evidence to prove that 2 holes from one FMJ bullet does not cause more bleeding. As far as hunting goes I have killed hundreds of deer and wild boar on my farmland and know full well that statement about 2 holes is nonsense talk. A proper designed hollowpoint bullet for hunting will kill game quicker and cleaner than a bullet that goes completely through the animal. Why? Because all the energy from that hollowpoint bullet stays in the animal making a larger wound channel while crushing everything in its path.

Loosedhorse
August 23, 2011, 12:35 PM
Two holes bleed better than one. Period.

Ever heard of "internal bleeding"?Biggest animal I've hunted fell after a 70 yard run, hit by an HP that didn't exit. Stone dead when I walked up to him. When we dressed him, we found a massive blood clot that had replaced (compressed) most of both lungs. Hemothorax.

You don't need two holes to bleed out quickly. What you need is a big hole in a big vessel, or in the heart.

CraigC
August 23, 2011, 12:38 PM
Actually, the human body (specifically the vascular system) is a pressurized system.
The vascular system is pressurized. The body cavity is not. Poke a hole in your organs and they will bleed. Give that blood somewhere to go, outside the body, and they will bleed much more profusely.


There is much evidence to prove that 2 holes from one FMJ bullet does not cause more bleeding.
I'm not talking about two holes from FMJ's. I'm talking about two holes in general. Whether it's cast bullets with a wide meplat or expanding jacketed bullets.


Because all the energy from that hollowpoint bullet stays in the animal...
And we're back to the old "energy kills" nonsense.


PS, oh and we're not discussing rifles so statements about exploding hearts from hits with a 7mm Mag, while interesting, are pretty much irrelevant. Handgun cartridges simply do not have the velocity to kill in such a way.

Hoppe
August 23, 2011, 12:47 PM
The reason the military has to use FMJ is it is easyer for the doctors to patch up those types of wounds. The Geniva convention ruled expanding bullets crule because they caused too much damage and medic could not stop the bleeding. Any energy used to leave the target is wasted energy as far as I am concerned.

dprice3844444
August 23, 2011, 12:49 PM
i alternate,hollow point,hardball

481
August 23, 2011, 01:01 PM
Actually, the human body (specifically the vascular system) is a pressurized system.


The vascular system is pressurized. The body cavity is not. Poke a hole in your organs and they will bleed. Give that blood somewhere to go, outside the body, and they will bleed much more profusely.

Yes, I know. That is why I said, (specifically the vascular system), in the portion of my post that you quoted above.

Because of the pressure differential that exists between the vascular system and the thoracic and abdominal cavities there is no need for blood to actually "go outside the body" in order for one to bleed to death.

scythefwd
August 23, 2011, 01:19 PM
snooper, I didn't say I recommended either. I stated that two holes are better than one. I also stated that the exit hole should be large, which is generally what happens, even more so with a hollow point.

Show me the evidence where the bullet that DOESNT exit is more lethal than one that goes through and through.

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 23, 2011, 02:42 PM
Right now I have 114 gr JHP in my S&W 469. I'm upgrading to 124gr after this box is used up. I don't hate FMJ, I use it as my practice ammo. I ran a few tests on some scrap Kevlar last week, and the 114gr JHP did not penetrate, where the FMJ blew clean through it, the plywood upright and into the dirt berm behind it all.

Kevelar needs something wearing it to work properly, did you just hang it or did you actually put it on a mannequin?

I always use FMJ.

My guns are high-quality Sigs, but I still leave nothing to chance. I always want my defense pistols to shoot.

Besides, I like penetration. Break into my house, and hiding behind a wall isn't going to save you.

All new SIGs are designed to use JHP and they will just fine. Its not a matter of some surplus pistol from some random country, its pistol that law enforcement carries everyday loaded with JHP without a problem. Using JHP is fine.

Also a simple wall in a home WILL NOT stop a JHP round.

snooperman
August 23, 2011, 03:05 PM
such as the 357 magnum would be very lethal if it shot clean through with a large exit hole. The evidence for using hollowpoints over FMJ is well documented by FBI Institute, Mashall & Sanow, as well as Masad Ayoob and many others because such bullets give a greater wound cavity diameter. If this were not true the FBI and Law enforcement would not use them. Punching 2 clean small holes through someone with a full metal jacketbullet does not guarantee release of more blood from the body. That is just Poppycock talk.

snooperman
August 23, 2011, 03:45 PM
for self defense over FMJ bullets. For those of you who insist that the FMJ is superior because of your "Two hole" theory of more blood loss, let us see the scientific evidence to support your idea. Otherwise , like I said before , it is nonsense or poppycock talk.

CraigC
August 23, 2011, 04:02 PM
For those of you who insist that the FMJ is superior because of your "Two hole" theory...
READ THE POSTS!!! Nobody is suggesting that FMJ's are superior because they make two holes.

fastbolt
August 23, 2011, 04:19 PM
I've often shuddered to think that some gun owners might actually base their ammunition choices upon what they see on TV or in the Movies, or read in fiction. :scrutiny:

Anyway, as a LE firearms instructor of 20+ years experience, I don't load my pistol magazines (or revolver cylinders) differently based upon the season or whatever clothing some attacker might be wearing someday.

I do invest a fair amount of time practicing my skillset, though, and maintaining (as an armorer) the firearms which are carried as lawful defensive weapons. Take care of your equipment so it can take care of you, if ever needed (even under adverse conditions).

I also prefer, whenever possible, to use one of the more modern hollowpoint designs available in the various caliber weapons I carry.

Cemo
August 23, 2011, 04:53 PM
I call ball if I'm carrying a .45, Critical Defense in smaller cal.

fastbolt
August 23, 2011, 05:17 PM
Does anyone know anything about the 230grain +P Ranger?

If you're referring to the RA45TP, or T-Series in +P, it's acquired a good reputation over the years.

Yes, it's going to have some additional felt recoil and probably some attendant muzzle whip, but whether that's an issue is going to depend on the individual shooter (experience, skillset, sensitivity to felt recoil, etc) and pistol. I can notice it when I mix it in my magazines, and I've observed other shooters - even experienced instructors - react a bit when it comes up under the hammer (or striker firing pin) in their pistols while they're completing some course of fire. Some react more than others, of course.

It's been observed by another gentleman (for whom I have some respect) that the slight increase in velocity might sometime mean the difference in achieving expansion, depending on circumstances. (Such as if the cutter used to score the nose cavity's jacket petals were to have become dull without the computer catching it during manufacturing.)

Who can predict such things, though? Missing the intended target means even the "best performing" bullet design isn't going to do what the shooter desires (although it's going to hit something when it misses the intended target).

Here's a couple of images from some 4-layer denim/gel shots done in a hosted gel event, done using standard pressure and +P SXT/T-Series .45 loads. They were fired guns with a 3.25" and 4.25" barrel. The standard pressure is on the left and the +P is on the right in the pictures. Notice how the one bullet didn't robustly, fully expand after having been fired from the 4.25" barrel ... but the one fired through the inch shorter barrel did? Things happen ... or not.

3.25" barrel:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/fastbolt/CS45sideview.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/fastbolt/CS45T-seriestopview.jpg

4.25" barrel:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/fastbolt/Commanderangled.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/fastbolt/Commander.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/fastbolt/4.jpg

Now, who can say whether these same, isolated gel results would be seen in other test shots, on different days, using other guns and other production lots? While I obviously would like to have the most consistently, robustly expanding modern hollowpoint load I can use, I still place shot placement a bit higher on my list of critical factors to consider.

While I have a fair supply of the +P SXT/T-Series & newer T-Series (no more reference to SXT on the box end flap) .45 loads, I usually carry the standard pressure loads and reserve the +P for my larger and heavier .45's. I have .45's with barrel lengths ranging among 3.25", 3.5", 3.75", 4.25", 4.5" & 5". I'm thinking about adding another one with a 4" barrel to the mix, just to fill out the numbers. ;)

snooperman
August 23, 2011, 05:43 PM
Good stuff. I also carry the Ranger brand when I can get.

USAF_Vet
August 23, 2011, 06:03 PM
Kevelar needs something wearing it to work properly, did you just hang it or did you actually put it on a mannequin?



No mannequin, but placed tightly against a 1/4" plywood board in front of the back stop. Each piece was 4 layers of kevlar. 114gr JHP penetrated the first layer, but was stopped by the second. FMJ of the same weight blew clean through. Granted, not scientific by any real standards. Also, I'm well aware that Kevlar is not a good analog for human tissue.

fastbolt
August 23, 2011, 06:08 PM
Fastbolt, thanks for the photos and info on the +P SXT ammo..
Good stuff. I also carry the Ranger brand when I can get.

De nada.

These photos are several years old, now, taken back when the change was occurring from the SXT (RA45SXTP, etc) to the T-Series (RA45TP).

The last bunch of .45 +P I received (they were out of stock of the standard pressure load) was the newest revision of the T-Series, but I don't have any images from the last test shots done at a gel event using either the.45 +P T-Series or the Bonded load. I have some data buried somewhere in my computer from that last session ... :scrutiny:

The Ranger line is just their LE/Gov product line, meaning the T-Series is just one product offered within that line. The other stuff might be similar to something offered in the Supreme or USA ("white box") line, at times. One of the Ranger Handgun 180gr JHP duty loads in .40 - the RA40180HP - is listed as producing 10fps more velocity than it's USA cousin - USA40JHP - at least in the specs, but I've seen the USA version delivered to replace a contract order for the RA40180HP, upon occasion ... and it's still listed under both the USA and the Subsonic Centerfire Duty Handgun product lines. :D

FWIW, the current RA40T 180gr T-Series is listed at producing 990fps, and the Ranger Bonded Handgun RA40B 180gr load shows 1025fps. It would seem each load has been optimized in the way of velocity for the design of the particular bullet being used.

I've been using a lot of Remington GS in the last several years, because it was available at the range for duty/qual/practice ammo, but if I was spending my own money for carry ammo I'd focus my efforts on either T-Series or Gold Dot. I can't offer any definitive data sets to support that personal preference, but that's how I'd spend my own money at the present time. I wouldn't jump through hoops to look for the T-Series, though, or pay through the nose for it, even though it seems to be pretty good stuff. I'd look for deals on the over-the-counter Speer GDHP and still sleep well at night (as long as it continued to feed well in my guns, when being fired in my hands, of course). I tend to look at the smaller custom ammo company offerings as being a bit prohibitive when it comes to the cost involved to periodically buy their products in quantities involving multiple boxes (or a case, or more).

I also sort of look at QC issues for the major companies as being something that seems to produce some "ebb & flow" over time.

Madcap_Magician
August 24, 2011, 01:53 PM
Jacketed hollow points are the way to go 100% of the time in any caliber above .32 ACP.

Modern JHPs are meant to expand even after passing through heavy clothing. If they fail to expand, you're no worse off than if you had hardball, but hardball will never expand, so there's no benefit to using it over JHPs unless your gun doesn't function with JHPs, in which case you need new ammo or a new gun.

FMJ ammo has a tendency to make wounds smaller than the caliber that overpenetrate. There is less tissue damage and more likelihood of hitting bystanders.

Ben86
August 25, 2011, 12:54 AM
Will this misconception ever die?

JHPs are absolutely the way to go for 9mm and above. They are not going to get stopped simply by a thick jacket or other clothing and due to advanced modern designs most likely won't clog either. Even if they do clog you have a hotly loaded FMJ. There really is no downside as long as your gun can feed them reliably.

jiminhobesound
August 25, 2011, 01:31 AM
If you are concerned about penetration you MUST have a 7.62x25

Prosser
August 25, 2011, 02:01 AM
I want some good opinions here. During winter months where people pile on clothes, would you rather cary ball or hollow point ammo. People pack on the clothes and with a big caliber, like a 45 acp is ball ammo the right choice? 9mm, 357 sig. Feedback on all calibers would be nice to have feedback.
Also, has anyone had any problems with there gun not feeding square end hollow points? I've even heard of people mix and matching in a hi capacity magazine (not really just thought about it).

You need to be more specific, and use a wound channel calculator. I don't like most HP ammo, since it's too light for caliber, but there are exceptions.

There are two ways to get wound channel: use a flat point, of LFN, and use the velocity of the pretty much non-expanding bullet to create wound channel. When you get over 1200 fps, that LFN might become an expanding bullet. That's pretty much revolvers but, it can be done with .45 Super, etc.
This gives you a cavity all the way through.

The other is to use a HP, but, they tend to expand quickly, do a lot of damage at the start, but fail to penetrate fully, and, in the end of their penetration, slow down so much the damage is not much.

It is possible to find heavy for caliber hollow points that penetrate and expand, along with creating a full length wound channel.

jbrown50
August 25, 2011, 12:00 PM
Todays hollowpoints and especially the bonded hollowpoints will easily penetrate heavy clothing. The real concern is with the bullet's performance/penetration capabilities after encountering heavy clothing. There are a few rare reports in the past of bullets stopping on heavy outer garments like those thick goose down jackets. The cause of these failures have been traced to defective ammo and not to the bullet itself being defective.

I don't consider those FBI tests to be the "be all end all". I do use them though as a tool to help me decide what hollowpoints perform best in the various self defense situations that i'm likely to encounter. I then choose those hollowpionts according to their reliability and shootability in my gun.

Up until yesterday i'd been carrying 147gr. PDX1's in my short barreled 9mm. Yesterday I switched back to the Corbon 115 gr. DPX, not because the PDX1 isn't a good SD round, but because the DPX shoots right at POA in my gun just like the 124 gr. FMJFP's that I usually train with. Both the PDX1 and DPX cycle reliably and penetrate deep enough and expand reliably according to the tests that i've seen. It's just that I have more confidence in my ability to hit exactly on target in a stressful situation with the DPX.

snooperman
August 25, 2011, 02:05 PM
The average chest diameter of a Large human male, 6ft and heavy build, is about 12 inches , according to the FBI stats. The FBI requires that their ammo meets that requirement of at least 12" penetration and .5" expansion in ballistic gel for 9mm after passing through 4 layers of heavy denim. There is hollowpoint ammo produced by the major American ammo companies that exceed that requirement. There are also requirements that the FBI has for other calibers as well. All of this was a result of the shootout in Miami, FL where a gunman killed FBI agents after being shot several times by less effective ammo, more than 20 years ago. Because of the FBI demands, the ammo companies have responded

snooperman
August 25, 2011, 02:22 PM
perform through a certain type of clothing, regarding penetration and expansion, would be for you to do your own tests using that clothing and ballistic gel.Heavy clothing such as goose down will obviously have a different outcome than the 4 layers of denim specified by the FBI etc, etc. There can not be 100% guarantee of how ammo will perform unless all of the variables used are the same. I too take the FBI stats as a starting point and guide for that reason.

481
August 25, 2011, 02:27 PM
Besides ensuring that the bullet reaches vital organs in a wide variety of scenarios and possible body types, greater JHP penetration depth also means that the expanded JHP is moving faster at every point of travel during penetration than an expanded JHP that reaches a shallower penetration depth.

I believe that such an attribute is a desirable thing to have and look for JHPs that expand and offer an average penetration depth of 15 inches.

481
August 25, 2011, 02:38 PM
Up until yesterday i'd been carrying 147gr. PDX1's in my short barreled 9mm. Yesterday I switched back to the Corbon 115 gr. DPX, not because the PDX1 isn't a good SD round, but because the DPX shoots right at POA in my gun just like the 124 gr. FMJFP's that I usually train with. Both the PDX1 and DPX cycle reliably and penetrate deep enough and expand reliably according to the tests that i've seen. It's just that I have more confidence in my ability to hit exactly on target in a stressful situation with the DPX.

Good on you. :) That's an important aspect of SD that many seem to take for granted.

Remember, it ain't the "arrows", it's the "indian".

ZVP
August 25, 2011, 02:56 PM
Round balls worked well for Hickock with the "puney" (?) .36 Colt and he had to penetrate natural materials such as heavy wool and animal hides.
I'd say go with "Ball" ammo no matter what the gun is it'll get through materials.
ZVP

CraigC
August 25, 2011, 03:43 PM
I'd say go with "Ball" ammo no matter what the gun is it'll get through materials.
Big difference between soft lead roundball and hardball. Lead roundball flattens out and creates nasty wounds. Last .54cal roundball I recovered from a whitetail was flattened out over 1" in diameter. Hardball, not so much. They tend to zip right through with very little tissue disruption.

AlexM
August 25, 2011, 04:07 PM
There have always been questions about things like this. I actually wrote something on a blog that was very similar to the question and think it'll help you. As far as clothing goes I won't say it doesn't play a part but it won't play as big a role as I think you might be assuming it will.

Bottom line for Self-Defense I carry hollow points. Here's the link to the blog if you're interested.

http://www.thegunholsterstore.com/blog/?p=43

snooperman
August 25, 2011, 05:46 PM
and they do expand very well. I have killed a number of deer with 128gr lead round ball in 45cal percussion "poor boy" southern Mt rifle and the penetration is very adequate with 75gr of FFG black powder. That said, I see no reason why lead bullets could not be used with good effect in modern revolvers or pistols for self defense.

Prosser
August 25, 2011, 07:06 PM
Buffalobore has a 158 grain soft lead HP Plus P .38 that goes 1040 fps out of my snub. It's currently loaded with that.

Couple ways to a wound channel: First meplat. Second velocity, third bullet expansion. Problem with most service calibers is they can't get the HP's to penetrate enough if said bad guy is very large, or has his arms pointed at you, to shoot you.

Also, at a certain velocity point, say 1350 fps, LFN bullets start turning into expanding bullets.

Ball can be designed to tumble as well, increasing wound channel.

For service calibers I've often wondered why they didn't go with a lighter, LFN
type bullet, going faster. More reliable, and you get penetration from bullet design and velocity, along with a large wound channel.

By the way, you don't need .75" of expansion to put a big hole in something. .475-.510" works FAR better then the numeric increase in size indicates.

snooperman
August 26, 2011, 08:45 AM
and in single shot rifles and single action revolvers have taken many wild boar on my farmland with them. And, as Craig mentioned, the diameter of the bullets sometimes doubles in size when removed from the animal. There is no doubt in my mind that if these bullets can perform that well in such large thick-hide animals with heavy coat of hair it could be equally deadly to humans with clothing. I still carry the old lead hollowpoint FBI load in my snubby revolvers and so do many LEO for backup. Buffalo Bore is about as good as it gets in this type of manufactured ammo.

Prosser
August 26, 2011, 01:52 PM
IIRC, the original John Browning design was for a 200 grain LFN bullet, .45 ACP, at 950 fps or faster. The LFN design would give you a straight, penetrating round, and the velocity a pretty decent wound channel. If that's not correct, it might have been ball ammo. I wonder if a 200 grain .45 ACP ball bullet would tumble? Don't know.

That said, shooting .45 ACP ball mil surplus in the woods I was amazed by a couple things.
First, it was pretty much slow enough so you could see the glint on the bullet as it went through the forest, and two, that it penetrated like the energizer bunny, going through 12" trees, etc. and, it just kept on going.

Ben86
August 26, 2011, 05:31 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that if these bullets can perform that well in such large thick-hide animals with heavy coat of hair it could be equally deadly to humans with clothing.

The less resistance you get from a human body may likely result in less expansion and more penetration.

jeepmor
August 27, 2011, 05:17 AM
Study FBI data, no opinions there. Also, boxotruth does a good job of showing real data to judge for yourself.

waidmann
August 28, 2011, 01:34 AM
I think Madcap touched on a real issue. The marginals are where the discussion gets hypercritical, .32's and .380's.

The other area is I see for expanding the debate is shooting at/into automobiles.

DenaliPark
August 28, 2011, 01:49 AM
It's interesting, DocGKR, has noted that a perfectly performing JHP at best, bumps terminal performance by about 5%. He has also noted that medical examiners, and trauma surgeons, have difficulty in distinguishing one wound from another delivered by typical service caliber's.

Shot placement is crucial, ball v JHP not so!

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