if you absolutely had to use a .22 for self defense?


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haplesshero
August 23, 2011, 01:39 PM
I have muscular dystrophy, severely limited hand and arm strength that will progressively get worse. I have spent over 2000 rounds behind my Walther P22 in the last month, countless hours playing with the internals (polished trigger and hammer, feed ramp, trigger bar ears, etc.), and have modified my magazines to allow 12+1 capability(which I practice with and works reliably, every time). I am capable of rapid fire, currently scoring 4-5 bullseye and the rest in the 9-10 range from a single mag at 10-15 ft without the use of a front post sight. I am comfortable with this weapon as a CCW.

I do not care to hear the inadequacy of my choice of round. I have fired 9mm from a full size polymer, and although i scored one bullseye out of four shots, I was uncomfortable with the recoil, follow up ability, and the sheer stress on my muscles afterward.

I currently keep the weapon loaded with CCI Stingers (I score the hollow points with a small phillips head screwdriver.) As soon as the opportunity presents itself, I plan to do some independent ballistics testing.

In the meantime, what round would you use, if you absolutely had to use a .22 for self defense? In addition, are there any modifications to the rounds that may increase their limited expansion, penetration, or fragmentation capabilities (while still remaining within the bounds of the law)?

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gunsablazin
August 23, 2011, 01:52 PM
Your choice of CCI Stingers is a good one. Obviously, reliability is extremely important in a self defense pistol, and the round you are using is a "premium" .22LR round. The extra quality control used in their production reduces the chance of a mis-fire, like you commonly see with the cheaper "plinking" ammo you buy in bricks. If I were in your condition, I would not feel unarmed with a good .22, while not the best choice, in the hands of a competent shooter,it can be effective.

RickMD
August 23, 2011, 01:58 PM
A lot of people have been killed quite dead with a 22 LR. I've personally seen more than a few. If you can shoot it well stick with it. A well placed shot with a 22 will beat a miss with a larger caliber any day. Remember that most felons prefer not to be shot with anything.

Claude Clay
August 23, 2011, 02:02 PM
i feel much the same as you but with a Sig Trailside and CCI Stingers.

i practice 3 shoot groups and at 21' a quarter will often cover each group.
when i play this game ( arthritis is developing) i also practice with my Ace 4-derringer.

Scimmia
August 23, 2011, 02:08 PM
The Stinger is a good round, my only question would be penetration. Would this be a situation where ball ammo might be superior?

481
August 23, 2011, 02:14 PM
I have muscular dystrophy, severely limited hand and arm strength that will progressively get worse. I have spent over 2000 rounds behind my Walther P22 in the last month, countless hours playing with the internals (polished trigger and hammer, feed ramp, trigger bar ears, etc.), and have modified my magazines to allow 12+1 capability(which I practice with and works reliably, every time). I am capable of rapid fire, currently scoring 4-5 bullseye and the rest in the 9-10 range from a single mag at 10-15 ft without the use of a front post sight. I am comfortable with this weapon as a CCW.

I do not care to hear the inadequacy of my choice of round. I have fired 9mm from a full size polymer, and although i scored one bullseye out of four shots, I was uncomfortable with the recoil, follow up ability, and the sheer stress on my muscles afterward.

I currently keep the weapon loaded with CCI Stingers (I score the hollow points with a small phillips head screwdriver.) As soon as the opportunity presents itself, I plan to do some independent ballistics testing.

In the meantime, what round would you use, if you absolutely had to use a .22 for self defense? In addition, are there any modifications to the rounds that may increase their limited expansion, penetration, or fragmentation capabilities (while still remaining within the bounds of the law)?

To answer your question, if I was constrained to the use of a .22LR handgun for SD, I would use the fastest, yet heaviest practical (in .22 that would be 40 grain) plated RN bullet that I could find in order to insure adequate penetration. That accomplished, I would then train to place as many bullets into the vital zone of an assailant(s) in the shortest time possible.

The reason I say this is that hollow point bullets in .22 are notorious for under-expanding (and failing to expand) even under the most optimal circumstances and usually don't weigh a full 40 grains to begin with. When .22 HPs do expand, that expansion is typically unimpressive at handgun velocities (the .22 isn't big to begin with) even with scoring the noses and what little penetration ability the .22 has is reduced by the braking forces induced by the expanded HP if it expands in the first place.

ForumSurfer
August 23, 2011, 02:21 PM
The Stinger is a good round, my only question would be penetration. Would this be a situation where ball ammo might be superior?

I tend to agree with this. I was shot with a 22 CCI Stinger when I was 17. It fragmented and caused little damage other than a broken bone. I often wonder what would have happened if it had been an FMJ with just a teeny bit more penetration capability to get to the squishy stuff on the other side of said bone. Take that fwiw but if it were me, I'd be carrying some fast moving FMJ and save the stingers for small critters.

56hawk
August 23, 2011, 02:34 PM
Yellow Jackets are the only 22s I have ever had any luck with. Of course this is with shooting small animals. Don't know how effective they would be on people.

haplesshero
August 23, 2011, 02:37 PM
To answer your question, if I was constrained to the use of a .22LR handgun for SD, I would use the fastest, yet heaviest practical (in .22 that would be 40 grain) plated RN bullet that I could find in order to insure adequate penetration. That accomplished, I would then train to place as many bullets into the vital zone of an assailant(s) in the shortest time possible.

The reason I say this is that hollow point bullets in .22 are notorious for under-expanding (and failing to expand) even under the most optimal circumstances and usually don't weigh a full 40 grains to begin with. When .22 HPs do expand, that expansion is typically unimpressive at handgun velocities (the .22 isn't big to begin with) even with scoring the noses and what little penetration ability the .22 has is reduced by the braking forces induced by the expanded HP if it expands in the first place.

Thank you much, this was the sort of answer I was looking for, as penetration is my primary concern with .22 center mass shots. Luckily, minimags are also the most accurate round out of my weapon.

Thanks again.

Sky
August 23, 2011, 02:47 PM
I am capable of rapid fire, currently scoring 4-5 bullseye and the rest in the 9-10 range from a single mag at 10-15 ft without the use of a front post sight. I am comfortable with this weapon as a CCW

That is pretty good shooten with the P-22.

I had an uncle shot in the back when he was 10 years old from approx 50 yards with a 22fmj. He spent the rest of his life in a wheel chair.

Personally knew a girl who shot a guy with a .22HP who had broken into her house. He was hit in the chest and ran outside where he fell over to rise no more.

With the way you are approaching your self defense and the work you are putting into acquiring the skills necessary to protect yourself I have nothing but praise for you. Let us all hope we never have to fire a weapon in SD or out of anger.

KodiakBeer
August 23, 2011, 02:48 PM
You might consider a 10/22 for home defense. You can buy 30 and 50 round magazines for them. There are also a lot of aftermarket mods available like folding stocks, etc. For most people such mods are toys, but for you it might make the best home defense system.

http://cdn.armslist.com/images/posts/6343095331606856062ljwn4q4.jpg

JoeMal
August 23, 2011, 02:48 PM
Getting shot in the nose/eye/mouth would not feel pleasant, even coming from a .22. I think shot placement may be the bigger concern than ammo choice; FMJ or hollow point, being shot is going to make the BG think twice

haplesshero
August 23, 2011, 03:00 PM
You might consider a 10/22 for home defense. You can buy 30 and 50 round magazines for them. There are also a lot of aftermarket mods available like folding stocks, etc. For most people such mods are toys, but for you it might make the best home defense system.

http://cdn.armslist.com/images/posts/6343095331606856062ljwn4q4.jpg
For home defense, I am considering a Saiga in 5.45x39. The action is smooth enough from factory, and i plan on polishing it a bit. Besides, with my interest in taking things apart, i feel it would be a fun project weapon and good survival choice, as well.

Thank you though, the 10/22 is number three on my rifle list.

481
August 23, 2011, 03:06 PM
Thank you much, this was the sort of answer I was looking for, as penetration is my primary concern with .22 center mass shots. Luckily, minimags are also the most accurate round out of my weapon.

Thanks again.

Glad that I could help. :)

You must be able to read minds also. :D After your last response, I realized that I had actually failed to name the round that I was describing in my response to you, but you nailed it anyway. :cool:

From a 3.4" P22 barrel you can expect a muzzle velocity of 850-900 fps depending upon how your pistol barrel performs with that load.

Have you had the opportunity to chronograph the CCI 40 gr. Minimags from your P22 yet?

Chuck Dye
August 23, 2011, 03:09 PM
On the ammo choice, Aguila Interceptor is touted as a 40 grain bullet, either solid or hollow point, at 1470 fps, presumably from a rifle barrel. I have yet to connect with any but have seen it on several vendors' web sites.

KZinOKC
August 23, 2011, 03:11 PM
You may find this interesting for the .22 It claims to improve accuracy and stopping power.

http://www.gunblast.com/Paco.htm
http://www.leverguns.com/store/acurzr.html

KodiakBeer
August 23, 2011, 03:16 PM
For home defense, I am considering a Saiga in 5.45x39.

That would be a better choice. I just assumed you'd need rimfire in a long gun also.

Lawdawg45
August 23, 2011, 03:26 PM
haplesshero,

If your wife is a good cook and can do biscuits and gravy some southern justice, I'll be your bodyguard 24/7:D

Just wanted to give you a chuckle and let you know you're amongst friends. I was recently diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis, and while I'm not in your position, I've had to make some caliber and weapon adjustments. Hang in there and keep smiling!

LD45

Geckgo
August 23, 2011, 03:36 PM
+1 for 40g solid minimags. Aguilla makes a 60gr bullet but they have problems in some weapons. Definitely test them first. I believe you can get them in solids.

Most HP 22s will still have pretty adequate penetration for home defense, but I would vote no on the stingers. If you want a HP, get a velociter and call it good. Just my opinion.

berettaprofessor
August 23, 2011, 03:46 PM
I'm sure that Robert Kennedy would not argue with the choice of a 22 for lethality.

Rexster
August 23, 2011, 03:47 PM
With nerve damage in my formerly strong hand, I have thought about this. The Beretta Cheetah has my attention.

As for reliability, the Colt Ace I owned in the 1980's was flawlessly reliable in igniting .22 LR ammo, for many, many hundreds of rounds, perhaps into the thousands. I wish I could recall the brand, but it was NOT the cheap stuff. If I use a .22 LR for defense in the future, the CCI Mini-Mags will be on my short list of ammo choices, if the gun is accurate with it. As far as I can recall, my S&W Model 17 revolver, that I use for low-cost training, has ignited every Mini-Mag tried in it.

Uniquedot
August 23, 2011, 04:09 PM
get a velociter and call it good

This would be my choice in the .22 lr. I have been pretty impressed with their small game performance when fired from rifles, but don't recall using them in a handgun.

David E
August 23, 2011, 04:14 PM
If the DA first shot of the P22 isn't a strength concern and yours is reliable, then it's a good choice.

I'd load it with Stingers or CCI's SGB.

I knew a guy who got shot in the leg with a .22 solid. The only reason he didn't load it with Stingers was because he forgot them. It was a thru and thru wound, causing very little damage. He was glad he forgot the Stingers.

But I would not "score them with a screwdriver" for a couple reasons.

The most critical element in this exercise is smart training. Being able to hit slowfire means little in a rapidly progressing defensive situation.

Were it me, I'd practice rapid-fire hits to the high upper chest/neck/face area. I'd go for 4-5 hits per second in a grapefruit size group from 5-7 yards. Then add a second, then third target. Then add movement.

If you could put 4 shots each into the head of 3 IPSC targets at 5 yds while moving in 5-6 seconds from start signal to last shot (holstered start) you'd be very formidable indeed.

ForumSurfer
August 23, 2011, 04:19 PM
Getting shot in the nose/eye/mouth would not feel pleasant, even coming from a .22. I think shot placement may be the bigger concern than ammo choice; FMJ or hollow point, being shot is going to make the BG think twiceEveryone seems to always say this. It is all a matter of luck when it comes to the shot. Some say it hurts like stink, others never felt a thing.

I will say that when I was shot with a 22, I honestly didn't know I was hit. If I had been committed to attacking someone, it wouldn't have slowed me down.

I'm not doubting the caliber, I'm just stressing the importance of multiple, well placed rounds.

Mike1234567
August 23, 2011, 04:19 PM
For home defense, I am considering a Saiga in 5.45x39. The action is smooth enough from factory, and i plan on polishing it a bit. Besides, with my interest in taking things apart, i feel it would be a fun project weapon and good survival choice, as well.

Thank you though, the 10/22 is number three on my rifle list.
If you can handle a Saiga 5.45x39 then you might consider the .223 instead. Weight is the same and recoil should be about the same but ammo is more abundant with more variety... this is probably going to be even more so in the future. Remember those cheap Russian mil-surp calibers that the supplies dried up, e.g. 7.62x25, 7.62x54R?

R.W.Dale
August 23, 2011, 04:23 PM
easy if it's a revolver I'd use the 60g Agulia SSS

http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/large/135/135961.jpg

Marginally stable at handgun ranges these bullets tumble and keyhole the instant they hit something, I've shot a lot of critters with a handgun in 22lr NOTHING and I mean NOTHING kills with the authority of this round.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page3032.htm

from a carbine in gel

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Aguila%20Sniper%20SubSonic%2060%20grain%20lead%20round%20nose.html

mljdeckard
August 23, 2011, 04:25 PM
First of all, I wouldn't.

But if there were really no choice, I would use my 1911/.22 conversion kit with 15 rd magazines, and put as many Stingers as possible in center of mass. I really think that dithering over the TYPE of .22 round you use is a lot of VERY fine hair-splitting. I think how MANY hits you can get is much more relevant than the type of bullet.

SharpsDressedMan
August 23, 2011, 06:57 PM
If you simply MUST use a .22..................:D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQEb6DPPVtU&NR=1

kludge
August 23, 2011, 07:02 PM
In a handgun... with rimfire ammo I would recommend a double-action revolver for MANY reasons... however the ones I've seen lately have miserable triggers, not recommended for someone in your condition without trigger work... and then I would go with a .22 WMR revolver, the longer the barrel the better. HOWEVER (and that's a BIG however) double action revolvers can require a good amount of finger strength and practice to shoot effectively.

If solely for home defense than I would choose a rifle, where recoil is not as much of a concern, and you could get a much more potent round. The .30 Carbine is light, powerful, and easy to use. Recoil is minimal. Plus it is downright fun to shoot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine

In a handgun I would try something heavier, like the Kel-Tec PMR30 and uses the .22 WMR (aka .22 Magnum) or maybe an FN FiveSeven 5.7mm.

It's also worth trying a Browning BDA in .380 ACP, heavier than your typical .380 and a WIDE grip to help spread out the recoil.

In .22LR I would shoot the fastest 40 solids I could find or the 60gr SSS.

rondog
August 23, 2011, 07:09 PM
I'd like to see some photos of these .22lr "FMJ's" people keep mentioning. I've never seen a full metal jacketed .22lr before, is there such a thing?

Magoo
August 23, 2011, 07:15 PM
If you're up for (lots of) experimentation and playing with penetration/expansion tests, there's a fella over on rimfirecentral (I think his userid is "Paco") that sells bullet sizer/shaping kits. You could play around a good bit (indefinitely) with various factory loads resizing (accuracy and reliability) and reshaping them (penetration/expansion, assuming good A and R).

The only folks I really hear of using them are benchrest shooters trying to squeeze that last bit of accuracy from their rimfires. But some of the profiles he offers are definitely hunting inspired.

Best of luck choosing on your cartridge. I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear what and why you end up with what you do.

haplesshero
August 23, 2011, 07:58 PM
Thank you all for the responses. As of this time, I will continue my training regimen (100 round range time, 3-4 days a week) and intensify scenarios as has been suggested. I have recently purchased an Uncle Mike's IWB holster, but it rides a little high for carry, so I will be modifying my pants to make it work in the meantime.

As for bullet choice, I will switch to 13 rounds of mini-mags, (velocitors when I find them) since I stumbled across a short barreled gelatin test that did not bode well for stinger penetration (although they did expand uniformly.)

I agree that this discussion is like splitting hairs, but if my ass is on the line, and my beautiful girlfriend's sweet ass is on the line, I require the best defense that I can achieve.

See you all in rifle discussion.

woad_yurt
August 23, 2011, 08:46 PM
To test for penetration qualities, I once shot Stingers, Velocitors, Supermaximums, Mini-Mags, bulk cheap-os, etc, at a 2X4, all from the same 3 guns and same distance. The Supermaximums did best followed by the Velocitors. The Supermaximums were way deeper than the Velocitors with a 2.5" barrel, a bit deeper with the 4 incher but they were almost even with a 6" barrel, the Aguilas being only slightly deeper. See if your gun feeds Aguila Supermaximums; if not get some Velocitors.

For defense, don't squander any penetration with .22LR hollowpoints; you can't afford to give up any. Go with solid points.

Brian Williams
August 23, 2011, 09:54 PM
Get one of these and modify the nose a little more accurately.
http://www.leverguns.com/store/acurzr.html

Mike1234567
August 23, 2011, 11:36 PM
The best thing about the .22LR bullet modifiers isn't really the increased accuracy, IMHO. It's modifying bullets like the Aguila SSS 60gr into very effective hollow points.

Mr.357Sig
August 24, 2011, 12:06 AM
CCI or Remington Yellow Jacket HPs will get the job done.

pikid89
August 24, 2011, 12:26 AM
I'd like to see some photos of these .22lr "FMJ's" people keep mentioning. I've never seen a full metal jacketed .22lr before, is there such a thing?
They did in fact exist, however most FMJ looking .22 LR is just copper washed lead
http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy141/pikid89/M24001.jpg

TennJed
August 24, 2011, 12:46 AM
Not Trying to change your caliber choice but have you considered this?

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6198/6075012911_e31c7d4968.jpg

Kel Tec PMR-30.....30 round .22 mag handgun

Maple_City_Woodsman
August 24, 2011, 01:16 AM
I have used a P-22 for CCW in the past as well. I did all of the 'Bible' mods on mine, like it seems you have. The gun ran very well for me. It was flawless with CCI ammunition.

If you are not already aware, Brass Fetcher has done fairly extensive ballistic gelatin testing on the Walther P-22 with various types of ammunition, including CCI.

Long story short - Many types of ammunition will give you adequate penetration with your P-22, but none of them will expand. If they did, then you would not get sufficient penetration.

"Experts" say that trained shooters will experience something like a 30% reduction in accuracy under stress. IF that is true, then the accuracy you are getting from your P-22 at the range should be sufficient.

If I were in your shoes, I would just keep shooting the P-22, and keep stoking it with CCI velocitors.

Ruddie
August 24, 2011, 01:23 AM
Funny story about a .22 pistol and my Father-N-Laws. He carries a little .22 revolver in his pocket at all times. Now he's retired army and a "retired" marine plus he's been in law enforcement longer than I've been alive.
He showed it to me one day and I jokingly asked was he afraid of being attacked by a rodent... I quickly learned his logic behind it. With a strait face he told me if we were to get in a fight, he would get me in a headlock, place the barrel in the first available hole and let the gun do the rest.... I haven't said anything about the gun since....
I think the .22 is a very capable round. I don't want to get shot with it......anywhere, ever...

Cactus Jack Arizona
August 24, 2011, 02:11 AM
Stingers are my choice for self-defense when I carry my little Bersa Thunder22, or at least it will be. It's currently on lay-a-way. Shot placement is king. I decided to go with the light weight .22LR for those days when my back pain is unbearable. I have Scoliosis and Artheritis (as Fred G. Sanford would say).

It sounds as though you put a lot of work into your P22. It ought to be quite the hot little pistol. I probably should have stayed with the P22 since it is a few ounces lighter. However, we'll see how the Bersa goes. If need be, I'll pick up a P22 at a later time.

Good luck.

230therapy
August 24, 2011, 02:44 AM
What about trying 22 Magnum? Keltec has that pistol with very high capacity and there are a variety of revolvers that are chambered in 22 Magnum.

Also take a look at the various 32 calibers. Avoid little guns. Maybe take a look at the Ruger SP101 in 327 Federal Magnum. I think you can load it with various rimmed 32 rounds.

Odd Job
August 24, 2011, 03:00 AM
(I score the hollow points with a small phillips head screwdriver.)

I wouldn't do that. It might complicate a legal proceeding even if it is a good shoot.

The main gripe about the .22 for defense (in my opinion) is the less reliable ignition. If it was me I would go for a revolver with CCI Mini-mag ammo.

kayak-man
August 24, 2011, 03:15 AM
Mindset>Skillset>Toolset.

If I had to use a .22, I'd put a lot of work into the mindset and skillset before I started thinking about the ammo. Since you're asking this question, and you take the time the practice, you probably have the Mindset, and it sounds like your skillset is pretty good too. When I was reading your post, the one thing that stood out was that you were shooting from the bench. I'd practise as much as I could shooting from different positions and distances. Since .22 ammo is less expensive than most rounds, you should be able to get a good deal of practice in.

If it was me, I would strive to become proficient in:
-clearing manfunctions
-point shooting/indexing/instinctive/ whatever you want to call fast close range shooting
-shooting smaller targets at a longer than average distance (greater than 25 yards)
- engaging multiple targets.
-engaging multiple targets at varying distances.
-reloading (Especially since the Walther has that [to me] funky mag release in the trigger guard)
-clearing malfunctions.

Your own list of skills that need work may be different, but that is what I feel is important when talking about using a .22 in a gunfight.

As far as ammo choices go, I'd look for reliability, then penetration, then expansion. I don't care if the ammo expands to several inches in diameter if it doesn't penetrate enough to actually do anything, and ballistics are a moot point if your gun doesn't go bang.

I'd also look into using a .22 magnum, if that is at all possible. I think Kel Tec makes one called the PMR-30, that might suit your needs quite nicely. http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/pmr-30/

Hope this helps some,

Funny story about a .22 pistol and my Father-N-Laws. He carries a little .22 revolver in his pocket at all times. Now he's retired army and a "retired" marine plus he's been in law enforcement longer than I've been alive.
He showed it to me one day and I jokingly asked was he afraid of being attacked by a rodent... I quickly learned his logic behind it. With a strait face he told me if we were to get in a fight, he would get me in a headlock, place the barrel in the first available hole and let the gun do the rest.... I haven't said anything about the gun since....

And you're his son. I'd hate to see what he'd do to someone who isn't family :uhoh: :what:

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

tarosean
August 24, 2011, 06:15 AM
22LR still tops FBI's most deadly calibers list.

gschoelles
August 24, 2011, 11:06 AM
As with any gun I would pull the trigger until the threat ceased to exist period. Else go for hollow points and be aware that your 22 will pass through several walls before stopping if you miss.

haplesshero
August 24, 2011, 11:27 AM
Mindset>Skillset>Toolset.

If I had to use a .22, I'd put a lot of work into the mindset and skillset before I started thinking about the ammo. Since you're asking this question, and you take the time the practice, you probably have the Mindset, and it sounds like your skillset is pretty good too. When I was reading your post, the one thing that stood out was that you were shooting from the bench. I'd practise as much as I could shooting from different positions and distances. Since .22 ammo is less expensive than most rounds, you should be able to get a good deal of practice in.

If it was me, I would strive to become proficient in:
-clearing manfunctions
-point shooting/indexing/instinctive/ whatever you want to call fast close range shooting
-shooting smaller targets at a longer than average distance (greater than 25 yards)
- engaging multiple targets.
-engaging multiple targets at varying distances.
-reloading (Especially since the Walther has that [to me] funky mag release in the trigger guard)
-clearing malfunctions.

Your own list of skills that need work may be different, but that is what I feel is important when talking about using a .22 in a gunfight.

As far as ammo choices go, I'd look for reliability, then penetration, then expansion. I don't care if the ammo expands to several inches in diameter if it doesn't penetrate enough to actually do anything, and ballistics are a moot point if your gun doesn't go bang.

I'd also look into using a .22 magnum, if that is at all possible. I think Kel Tec makes one called the PMR-30, that might suit your needs quite nicely. http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pistols/pmr-30/

Hope this helps some,



And you're his son. I'd hate to see what he'd do to someone who isn't family :uhoh: :what:

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
Thank you very much.

msparks
August 24, 2011, 11:57 AM
If it were me, I would not carry stingers. They are great for rodents but I would worry about pentration. Take a look at the SGB (small game bullet) which is a solid with a flat point. This would be a great round.

10 head shots with a .22 is better than a missed shot with some other rounds.

Think about this. Isn't a 12Ga with buck shot something like 6 or .22 round balls? If those work, sending 10-12 downrange in a 15 second time frame is just as deadly.

PS, scoring, or changing any rounds could work against you in court.
"Your honor, this gentleman increased the deadliness of a round by "scoring" you see he really was premeditated on killing someone. "

Just something to think about.

The small game bullet.
Your defense attorney, Your honor, this guy was in fear of his life and used what he had available, including the small game bullet he uses for hunting (if you hunt) which show he had no "intention" of killing poor Mr. SoandSo Scumbag.

Mike1234567
August 24, 2011, 12:10 PM
^^^ To add to the above post... this isn't precise by any means but .22 sized pellets from a 12ga 2-3/4 inch shell would be more like 20-30 pellets in one shot.

But we digress from the OP's needs.

.45Guy
August 24, 2011, 08:56 PM
I don't know about ballistics gel and all that, but I "know someone" that shot large critters with stingers, that have rather muscular bodies, rather thicker than most human's thoracic cavity. Penetration was outstanding, and he never went hungry.

leadcounsel
August 24, 2011, 09:07 PM
There are actually many benefits of the .22LR as I see it. Shot placement and quick follow-ups on the same spot.

You could easily unload 10 or 20 rounds quickly and without much recoil. Using the right HPs, that would be devestating to a person (chest, skull, etc.).

While not my tops in choices, I would not feel undergunned for your normal home/self defense.

22-rimfire
August 24, 2011, 09:26 PM
I would use either CCI Velocitors or Mini Mag solids as long as your gun functions well with them. Penetration is important and either should give you good penetration under normal circumstances.

I also have no problem using a 22 for self defense. I don't recommend it for self defense, but I personally would use a 22LR confidently.

orionengnr
August 24, 2011, 11:33 PM
He showed it to me one day and I jokingly asked was he afraid of being attacked by a rodent... I quickly learned his logic behind it. With a strait face he told me if we were to get in a fight, he would get me in a headlock, place the barrel in the first available hole and let the gun do the rest....

First off, he is assuming he could put someone in a headlock. If not, he might be the subject of the autopsy tomorrow morning.

Now assuming his "Plan A" worked out well, he has the aggressor under control. But he puts one or more rounds into his head point-blank? He would probably spend the remainder of his natural life in prison. Sounds an awful lot like premeditated murder to me...and a jury might agree. Especially if the prosecution could access a post like this one.

antiquus
August 24, 2011, 11:44 PM
I go with what a lot have people posted here, the fastest 40gr round I could find, or the 60gr Aguila SSS. CCI, Aguila and now Winchester make 1435 to 1470 FPS 40 grain rounds.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2WNXHV22LR-1.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM065-5.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/64738-5.html

Scimmia
August 25, 2011, 12:22 AM
I don't know about ballistics gel and all that, but I "know someone" that shot large critters with stingers, that have rather muscular bodies, rather thicker than most human's thoracic cavity. Penetration was outstanding, and he never went hungry.

Nobody said a Stinger couldn't be effective, in many/most cases they'd work fine. We're talking self defence, though, so you want to give yourself the maximum chance of the bullet being effective, and the Stingers have more of a chance of underpenetration than a regular round nose round.

Let's say the Stinger was effective 80% of the time and the RN bullet was effective 85% of the time, which would you choose? Yes, the RN doesn't have much more chance of being effective, but if my life counted on it, I would want that extra 5%.

doc2rn
August 25, 2011, 03:26 AM
When .22 is going to be your primary round due to medical condition carry the best you can. For me that is a .22WMR, out of a S&W 351PD. Better all around round that can be had in a variety of premium thin skinned game rounds including the Hornandy V-Max.

Super Sneaky Steve
August 25, 2011, 10:54 PM
Of everything I've tested the Stingers were the most reliable and delivered the most power. I carry it in my Bobcat.

firemanstrickland
August 25, 2011, 11:03 PM
personally in the summer time stingers would be fine, in the winter i would probly load up some cci round nose

harmon rabb
August 25, 2011, 11:19 PM
For home defense, I am considering a Saiga in 5.45x39. The action is smooth enough from factory, and i plan on polishing it a bit. Besides, with my interest in taking things apart, i feel it would be a fun project weapon and good survival choice, as well.

Thank you though, the 10/22 is number three on my rifle list.
No. Not a Saiga. My buddy has a Saiga 5.45x39 and it is actually snappy. My bulgy ak-74, on the other hand, while firing the same round, is as soft as a 22. Apparently that muzzle brake (that is not on the Saigas) works well.

Get an AK-74 for a HD weapon. Super soft shooting. I have literally seen an 8 year old shoot mine and enjoy it.

jojo200517
August 25, 2011, 11:21 PM
Well it seems everyone else covered the bullet selection pretty well, I just wanted to throw in a few things. If you are considering the AK type rifle for home defense still I highly recommend http://www.themakogroup.com/product_p/sbt-k47fk.htm to help soften recoil. Also a good quality rear grip with some give like the houge or other brands will be helpful to your hand. I found the factory AK grips to be pretty thin and a big fatter over moulded grip may be just the thing.

Just another thought, teach your girlfriend to shoot if she doesn't.

harmon rabb
August 25, 2011, 11:23 PM
There are actually many benefits of the .22LR as I see it. Shot placement and quick follow-ups on the same spot.

You could easily unload 10 or 20 rounds quickly and without much recoil. Using the right HPs, that would be devestating to a person (chest, skull, etc.).

While not my tops in choices, I would not feel undergunned for your normal home/self defense.
There's something to be said for that. I can empty an entire mag from my 22/45, accurately, in probably a second or two. Would never think to use it for SD, but if I for some reason ever did, my strategy would definitely be to utilize how quickly i can fire it while remaining on target as compared to any other gun.

Deltaboy
August 25, 2011, 11:33 PM
10-22 will be the ticket just keep shooting till the perp drops.

Dr.Rob
August 26, 2011, 12:11 AM
I'd say CCI stingers as well.

There was an old Gun Digest that did soap and clay tests with various 22LR loads from rifles and pistols, the CCI was the stand out.

The most importatnt thing in any self defense arm is reliabilty, you MUST practice clearing jams as rimfires are far more prone to misfiring.

I would NOT rely on a home-modified magazine in a defense situation.

kayak-man
August 26, 2011, 12:30 AM
No. Not a Saiga. My buddy has a Saiga 5.45x39 and it is actually snappy. My bulgy ak-74, on the other hand, while firing the same round, is as soft as a 22. Apparently that muzzle brake (that is not on the Saigas) works well.

As far as I know, a Saiga in 5.45x39 IS an AK74. Once you make it 922R compliant, there is very little to stop you from adding the muzzle brake. (although that is a matter for another thread)

To the OP: I'm under the impression that you allready have the P22. If so, you should try and find a range nearby that has some kind of .22 friendly competition. Shooting a match would be good way to practice shooting under pressure.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

svaz
August 26, 2011, 03:10 AM
I trust my wife's life to 40gr solid Minimags in a Bersa 23. So far the combination has been 99% reliable. As long as it goes bang, eject, reload when she sqeezes the trigger, I trust her to take care of the rest of the equation.

The 36gr hp's have hung up on me a few times, BTW.

RickMD
August 26, 2011, 09:16 AM
I trust my wife's life to 40gr solid Minimags in a Bersa 23.

I'd like to trust my ex-wife's life to a rusted Jennings with a broken extractor...

tinygnat219
August 26, 2011, 09:23 AM
To the OP: Good on you for making the best of a bad situation and then practicing. For .22LR ammo, I'd stick with the CCI brand. I've seen that this ammo tends to have the least amount of misfires.

There's another gun I'd recommend to you: the Kel-Tec PMR. 30 rounds of .22 Magnum might be a better bet than the .22LR. The gun is pretty light as well. If the P22 is your carry rig, then I'd say you're set and pretty well prepared.

PreMod70
August 26, 2011, 04:48 PM
I can't say for handguns but in a rifle a Stinger is lacking when compared to the Mini-Mags for killing ability, JMHO. When they first came out my shooting buddy and I tried killing groundhogs, we shot about a dozen from 40 to 100 yards and the ones killed were the ones shot by the Mini-Mags, all the wounded were by the Stinger. When I say wounded I mean most made it back to the hole which we considered wounded to die later, not the way one wishes to do an animal. They may work in a revolver but I doubt it, Mini-Mags gets my vote.

Owen Sparks
August 26, 2011, 05:01 PM
22LR still tops FBI's most deadly calibers list.

Then why does the FBI not arm its agents with .22's?

The reason is because you want to STOP your opponant. Any deep puncture wound, no matter how small can eventually kill. That is not the object of a gun fight. A man in my town was stabbed with an ice pick in a bar fight and still beat the crap out of the guy who stabbed him. Being drunk and rather harry he could not find the wound as small punctures tend to be self sealing so he thought he would be alright. He died in his sleep later that night.

pazz
August 26, 2011, 06:27 PM
I have muscular dystrophy, severely limited hand and arm strength

If it had to be a .22 I would much rather have a Ruger 10\22 with Stingers than the Walther p22 You are going to lose a lot of 00mph out of that short barrel.

How about a Ruger charger?? It's halfway between a pistol and rifle.

searcher451
August 26, 2011, 06:55 PM
If worse came to worse, and it would have to for me to consider carrying a .22 as my primary carry piece, it would have to be a Walther PP, loaded with Mini-mags. And I say that only because I shoot this pistol more accurately than just about anything else I own and regularly take to the range. I can also load it, unload it, and strip it down blindfolded or in a pitch-black room, if necessary. I just wouldn't want to be caught in a situation where I'd have to depend on it, however.

Ben86
August 26, 2011, 11:58 PM
If I had to use .22 for SD I'd go with CCI Velocitors. It's a nice 40 grain hollow point humming along at faster than usual speeds. I also wouldn't mind using federal bulk pack hollow points. These have performed very well for me at the range and while hunting small game.

There are some things you should know about using a .22 for SD. The hollow points generally don't expand from a pistol barrel, they aren't going fast enough. Keep the gun clean as a whistle, .22s get dirty much faster than center fire pistols. .22 ammo is more prone to misfire and malfunction by nature of design, do malfunction drills often.

It is a tiny bullet, do your best to keep it in the heart or brain area. Fast, accurate hits are what you need. Then again that's true with all practical pistol calibers, just more so when you have even less to work with.

Don't let the fact that it's a .22 keep you from being confident with it. It can get the job done if you are up to it.

stanger04
August 27, 2011, 12:29 AM
I may have missed the post and I may be wrong but using a screw driver to alter you ammo is a no-no. I see your point in it and would do the same but it is not somethong to advertise.

I keep tracer rounds in my .22 at least if it under penetrates it will burn like crazy.

tarosean
August 27, 2011, 02:25 AM
Then why does the FBI not arm its agents with .22's?

I would imagine its listing is based on sheer numbers. more people are probably shot with 22's due to their inexpensive cost to operate. therefore more people die from 22 wounds.

While a 22 wouldnt be my first choice the OP has a reason for wanting it and it sure beats having nothing...

hhb
August 27, 2011, 12:50 PM
I've noticed that the people that condemn the .22RF for self defense won't let me shoot at their new pickup truck or their pet dog with a,22

NMGonzo
August 27, 2011, 12:58 PM
If you have to, make it rain.

th1229
August 27, 2011, 01:57 PM
The wife carries a .22 just because that is what she feels more comfortable with. She is also an excellent shot. I can't stand to hear people say that it is a weak or ineffective round. Keep using what you are comfortable with.

Jorg Nysgerrig
August 27, 2011, 04:14 PM
You could easily unload 10 or 20 rounds quickly and without much recoil
I'd hate to have to explain why I shot someone 20 times in self-defense. :eek:

I've noticed that the people that condemn the .22RF for self defense won't let me shoot at their new pickup truck or their pet dog with a,22
I won't let you throw a nerf bat, cow pie, or a dirt clod at my truck or dog and I don't think any of those are good self defense options either.

You're knowingly presenting a fallacious argument that borders on asinine. Why can't it be enough to say that if the .22 is the best choice given someone's circumstances, then they should go ahead and use it? Why make the ridiculous argument?

Shawn Dodson
August 27, 2011, 04:50 PM
I suggest CCI SGB (Small Bame Bullet). See - http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=2&loadNo=0058

An expanding .22 LR bullet will underpenetrate.

Good luck.

303tom
August 28, 2011, 01:48 AM
I do, Automag II on the night stand, Mini-mag in my pocket.

Cactus Jack Arizona
August 29, 2011, 01:15 AM
I posted earlier that I had a Bersa Thunder22 on Lay-a-way. Since then I changed my mind. I elected to go with the Walther P22 myself. Now, I'm not sure that I'm going to have all the improvements done that you did to your P22, but I do know that my P22 just loves CCI Mini-Mags and Stingers.

stanger04
August 29, 2011, 01:48 AM
I carried a .22LR for a long time. It was never used in a time of need but I would have had no doubt to use it, if I had to. If I had a choice between a .22 or nothing then I would take a .22.

The biggest thing to know is that the sight and sound of a gun will actually save you quicker than anything else. This isn't always but the majority of the time. Most want to rob and go same as home robberies, little or no confrontation.

kayak-man
August 29, 2011, 04:01 AM
origanally posted by Stranger04The biggest thing to know is that the sight and sound of a gun will actually save you quicker than anything else. This isn't always but the majority of the time. Most want to rob and go same as home robberies, little or no confrontation.

Stranger04, I respectfully dissagree. That may be true statistically, but I think its foolish to assume so. Last week, I shot a match at the range, and got to talking with a guy. Lets call him Borris. Borris was involved in a shooting fairly recently, (Heres the link to the news article: http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2011/jul/05/investigators-continue-to-probe-bainbridge/?partner=RSS).

The sight of the gun did not deter the BG. He actually noticed the gun before aproaching Borris.

You NEED to have a plan that goes beyond "badguy sees gun and runs away." It isn't over when the badguy leaves, or is carried away by the EMTs, or arrested. Its over when the DA says its over, and if your plan doesn't go that far, you could be up the creek with no form of propulsion.

As to everyone saying that a ".22 is just fine for SD" I stand by my origanal statement: A .22 is fine if you have the skills and tactics to make it work! Calliber is no substitute for training. Its less about the calliber being effective, than it is about the shooter using the calliber effectively.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

mljdeckard
August 29, 2011, 06:18 AM
If I believed that the sight and sound of a gun were an effective deterrent, I wouldn't load it at all.

Shawn Dodson
August 29, 2011, 09:25 AM
The biggest thing to know is that the sight and sound of a gun will actually save you quicker than anything else. This isn't always but the majority of the time. Most want to rob and go same as home robberies, little or no confrontation.

Then there are the drunks, druggies and mentals who don't react as a rational person would. The sight/sound of a gun may actually attract them to you. They may not appreciate the danger to themselves when you aim it at them.

And gangbangers who'll menace and harrass you just for kicks and giggles - knowing full well that, as a law abiding citizen, you're going to play by the rules and be at a disadvantage.

Ben86
August 29, 2011, 03:55 PM
The biggest thing to know is that the sight and sound of a gun will actually save you quicker than anything else. This isn't always but the majority of the time. Most want to rob and go same as home robberies, little or no confrontation.

Statistically it is true that the presentation of the gun is mostly all that is needed. Most criminals just want an easy score, not a fight. However, this should not be relied upon. When push comes to shove, or presentation to firing, you need something that is readily capable of a quick stop.

RetDep310
August 29, 2011, 04:16 PM
Just read in one of the gun mags that Speer now has a .22 Magnum Short-Barrel round that is good for pistols/revolvers. Believe it was an article in Combat Handguns.

zxcvbob
August 29, 2011, 04:25 PM
In the meantime, what round would you use, if you absolutely had to use a .22 for self defense?
CCI Mini-mags. They are the only .22's I've found that go Bang! every time in any properly-functioning gun.

svaz
August 29, 2011, 11:42 PM
For a time, before standardizing all of my .22LR ammo on Minimags, I loaded my wife's Bersa w/ whichever reliable ammo made the biggest fireball. Since this was home defense, most scenarios would likely happen within our home or on our property and probably in low light. The tactical advantage is hers, so why not use the bright flash to her psychological advantage? Some of those cartridges are really impressive and light the place up as if you were using a hand howitzer. The .22 being what it is, any advantage should be used.

Ben86
August 29, 2011, 11:50 PM
I loaded my wife's Bersa w/ whichever reliable ammo made the biggest fireball. Since this was home defense, most scenarios would likely happen within our home or on our property and probably in low light. The tactical advantage is hers, so why not use the bright flash to her psychological advantage?

What? You plan to use your gun as a flashlight?

arthury
August 30, 2011, 01:28 PM
It's all about shot placement. All ammo can kill.

Good guy killed by .22
http://www.ajc.com/news/clayton/police-have-video-of-1149887.html

Bad guy killed by .22
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/27850534/detail.html

Celebrity killed by .22
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kennedy_assassination

The ammo does not discriminate.

David E
August 30, 2011, 01:54 PM
What? You plan to use your gun as a flashlight?

That's not even close to what he said.

He thinks a bigger muzzle flash might make the badguy think he's being shot/shot at with something more powerful than a .22 rimfire.

That might make a .02% difference, but the best way to dissuade a badguy with a .22 is to place rapid hits to the face. If you can, and will, do that, the badguy won't have time to consider the size of the muzzle flash.

arthury
August 30, 2011, 02:22 PM
CCI Mini-mags are also what I found to be most reliable.

Deaf Smith
August 30, 2011, 09:29 PM
I have muscular dystrophy, severely limited hand and arm strength that will progressively get worse. I have spent over 2000 rounds behind my Walther P22 in the last month, countless hours playing with the internals (polished trigger and hammer, feed ramp, trigger bar ears, etc.), and have modified my magazines to allow 12+1 capability(which I practice with and works reliably, every time). I am capable of rapid fire, currently scoring 4-5 bullseye and the rest in the 9-10 range from a single mag at 10-15 ft without the use of a front post sight. I am comfortable with this weapon as a CCW.

I do not care to hear the inadequacy of my choice of round. I have fired 9mm from a full size polymer, and although i scored one bullseye out of four shots, I was uncomfortable with the recoil, follow up ability, and the sheer stress on my muscles afterward.

I currently keep the weapon loaded with CCI Stingers (I score the hollow points with a small phillips head screwdriver.) As soon as the opportunity presents itself, I plan to do some independent ballistics testing.

In the meantime, what round would you use, if you absolutely had to use a .22 for self defense? In addition, are there any modifications to the rounds that may increase their limited expansion, penetration, or fragmentation capabilities (while still remaining within the bounds of the law)?

Plain old .22 round nose like a Remington Golden Bullet or Winchester or CCI.

I would get the best high speed but nothing else fancy.

And then I'd shoot and shoot and shoot till I could hit a coke cap at 7 yards fast. A good .22 pistol will do that.

And then all my shots would be head shots. All I would practice for would be for the head. The .22 just isn't a big stopper. Aim for an eye socket!

Deaf

PT92
August 30, 2011, 09:53 PM
haplesshero,

Absent any question whatsoever:

CCI STINGERS

Don't look back.

-Cheers

Fishman777
August 31, 2011, 01:21 AM
People that don't think that .22 lr is effective need to watch the show "Swamp People". These folks take down hundreds of aligators, each year, with .22 rimfire rifles. If these hunters consistently take down a 800 pound aligators with a well placed .22 lr round, that "enemic" round should also be able to do the trick with human predators.

Heck, one guy even took down a gator with a single shot revolver that probably had a barrel less than 2 inches. He was pulled into the water and had the revolver as a backup in his pocket. One well placed shot was all it took with that gun.

I'd prefer to use a legitimate centerfire handgun, but even one well placed .22 lr round will do the trick. If someone struggles to accurately shoot a centerfire gun, I'd recommend a .22 magnum or even a .22 lr. It's better to hit with a rimfire than to miss with a centerfire round.

gofastman
August 31, 2011, 07:24 PM
what round would you use, if you absolutely had to use a .22 for self defense?
CCI Velocitors, CCI SGB, or Aguila Interceptors.
you need penetration with a .22LR, not expansion or "shock"
not in any order, whatever works best in your gun

CharlesT
August 31, 2011, 07:41 PM
This sounds goofy but you could load Stinger/minimag/stinger/minimag in the magazine. You would have the shock that the stingers deliver and the penetration of the minimags..

gyvel
September 1, 2011, 05:35 AM
Sadly, one of the best .22s is out of production: The Smith & Wesson 2206. It is flat, 100% reliable and superbly accurate. Also, as an added bonus, it can use either the 10 or 12 round Model 41 mags.

Hk Dan
September 1, 2011, 10:32 AM
Great advice David--you stole my post. Fact is, in a defensive situation you likely won't notice the heavier recoil of a bigger gun, and sore muscles won't be a mitigating factor if you live to tell of it. I'd go with at least a 9mm and keep [racticiing with the .22.

Ely might be a good choice...but they do make dies for uniforming your .22 rounds. Those might also be a good choice. I would NOT score the hollow points. You're asking for a fight that doesn't need to be fought; not a problem if the shooting is black and white but if there is a tiny little gray area or your DA is anti gun, stand by.

PT92
September 1, 2011, 11:10 AM
CharlesT wrote:

This sounds goofy but you could load Stinger/minimag/stinger/minimag in the magazine. You would have the shock that the stingers deliver and the penetration of the minimags..

Sure you could provided you have made sure your gun will cycle all the different rounds reliably.

-Cheers

ForumSurfer
September 1, 2011, 11:15 AM
CharlesT wrote:

This sounds goofy but you could load Stinger/minimag/stinger/minimag in the magazine. You would have the shock that the stingers deliver and the penetration of the minimags..


Mixing ammo is about the only way I can get any of my autoloaders (in any caliber) to not feed reliably. I've actually done that just to failures. Start mixing case types (brass, steel and aluminum in one mag) and you are almost guaranteed to get a few failures from time to time.

ForumSurfer
September 1, 2011, 11:23 AM
Fact is, in a defensive situation you likely won't notice the heavier recoil of a bigger gun, and sore muscles won't be a mitigating factor if you live to tell of it. I'd go with at least a 9mm and keep [racticiing with the .22.

Actually....


I have muscular dystrophy, severely limited hand and arm strength that will progressively get worse.

Having seen a family member with the same condition, I wouldn't recommend 9mm. The OP rcognizes his situation and obviously doesn't feel comfortable with 9mm. That is very realistic of him as this isn't a situation where someone is just recoil shy or sensitive.

I agree on the fact that scoring them is bad. I'd stick with any fast moving, non hollow point cci round.

CharlesT
September 1, 2011, 11:07 PM
I said what I said because in my Ruger MKIII I can put the "assorted .22lr box" in it and fire with no problems. By assorted .22lr box I mean it's a myriad of ammos all in one box, left overs if you will.

danez71
September 1, 2011, 11:55 PM
There may be better choices on paper but I have carried and will carry with plain ol' CCI mini mags.

They arent just reliable, the round/recoil is very comfortable to me. It may sound silly when talking .22lr but the super rounds dont feel like the gun cycles as smoothly to me as compared to the minimags.

YMMV

haplesshero
September 4, 2011, 02:05 PM
Thank you, everyone!

Looking at a heavier .32acp now, specifically the colt 1903 Hammerless :D.

However, this information will be very useful as my condition worsens (as it has and will), and for my girlfriend (Yes, i taught her to shoot. Yes, she loves it. Yes, she's a better shot than I am.)

And for doubters, not trying to start a war here, but if you put the time into it, the Walther P22 is a reliable, naturally pointing, and FUN gun (especially loaded with 13 HV's) with an admittedly bad trigger.

Deltaboy
September 5, 2011, 12:17 AM
A 327 mag will shoot all 32 cal ammo.

MattTheHat
September 5, 2011, 01:51 AM
The '03 Colt is one if my favorite pistols. I own a couple of them as well as the '08 version in 380 ACP, and carry them from time to time.

Heads-up, though. It's not a design that tolerates being dropped while cocked and loaded very well. They've been known to fire when dropped.

-Matt

toivo
September 5, 2011, 02:44 AM
Looking at a heavier .32acp now, specifically the colt 1903 Hammerless .

Good general idea, and a very nice gun, but maybe a trifle long in the tooth to be relied on for self-defense. For an excellent new-production handgun in .32 ACP, I would recommend a CZ-83:

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-83/

The .32 version holds 15 rounds. It's a hefty, all-steel gun. The .32 round in a heavier gun like this is the ticket to low-recoil happiness.The available .32 ammo is mostly honest-to-goodness FMJ, which is what I'd use. Load up a couple of extra magazines, and you will have 45 rounds of FMJ centerfire at your fingertips, with no more felt recoil than .22 rimfire out of a mousegun. They can be run as DA/SA, or as a SA using the cocked-and-locked capability. And they have a decent trigger.

They can be a little hard to find -- everyone wants the .380 -- but you should be able to locate one on the Internet somewhere.

As for .22, another vote for CCI round-nose solid Mini-Mags.

sm
September 5, 2011, 08:37 AM
haplesshero,

First off the ammo has to feed, extract, repeat with any mags you have.

Second, I prefer standard velocity, 40 gr lead round nose.

303tom
September 5, 2011, 09:38 AM
A 327 mag will shoot all 32 cal ammo.
No it will not, it will not shoot .32 ACP or will it shoot .32 NAA !

trikster
September 5, 2011, 06:26 PM
Very interesting read. Glad it has not degenerated into "don't use it, get this instead"... Pros and cons and suggestions, makes for a good read.

I have a similar issue with my wrists, broke them both when I was young. My hand likes to pop out of it's socket all the time and I could see it happening to me in a critical stage. As such, been looking at the .380, but mostly the .22. I had a J frame that I was going to buy for HD but am letting it go for 2 reasons. I had an opportunity to fire one with standard pressure .38 148g bullet. The recoil wasn't a lot, but on the third and fifth shot, the recoil popped my wrist out. Add that with a second look at the rifling (which is practically non existent, didn't have a bore light the first time around) made this a bad choice for me.

So to the OP, thanks for throwing this question out there in a way that has sparked good discussion. I hope you come to a good decision and share your experience with us.

leeroy71
November 9, 2011, 02:49 PM
Finally a .22lr thread with no bickering! I am of the opinion that ANY caliberis going to be effective at barstool distance. I knew a 250 lb man who was double tapped to chest...he was DRT. Not funny, I know. Just saying .22lr IS a lethal round in the hands of a lethal person ( ie: willing to pull the trigger til the threat is over).

theicemanmpls
November 9, 2011, 03:40 PM
I often pocket carry a Beretta 21A. CCI mini mags. It is an up close and very personal weapon. No more then 21 feet. At that range I can put em where I want em. I practice once per week on FBI targets. Two shots to the melon. Two shots to the boy parts/thighs of the perp. I know COM hits with a .22 lr don't have any where near the same effect of a centerfire round. However the 21A is what I carry, and what I will use if God forbid the situation calls for use deadly force to defend myself.
My other carry firearm is a S&W 442 loaded +p HP's.

Maple_City_Woodsman
November 9, 2011, 10:00 PM
I've been rethinking this topic a lot recently for a host of reasons my self. There is a practical list of criteria that a .22 defensive gun would need:

1) Minimum barrel length of 4" - to ensure adequate penetration

2) Compact design - for use in confined spaces

3) Good inherent stability - aid in instinctive shooting

4) Reliable high capacity magazines - in case statistical stop is not immediately achieved


If I were in OPs position, I would want something fairly light that I could still get both hands on. One of the 'PDW' type training pistols would be Ideal for that.

The magazine requirement essentially limits the choices to things that take 10/22, Black Dog, or GSG mags. These would be:
* KelTec PLR-22
* S&W M&P 15-22P
* GSG5 PK
* Ruger Charger
* Excel X-22P
* Tec-22

Of course this assumes that any one of those selections work, or could be made to work, well with various kinds of ammo.

230therapy
November 9, 2011, 11:46 PM
I would carry at least one revolver in case a round doesn't ignite. I'd probably go with a pair of S&W 317's modified with night sights, chamfered cylinders, beveled cylinder front, trigger job and boot grips.

Ash_J_Williams
November 10, 2011, 01:14 AM
CCI seems just fine. More people are killed by .22 every year than any other rounds, I believe.

joedotnet
November 10, 2011, 01:39 AM
I just got the new m&p 22lr. I love it because the ergonomics so closely match my 9mm version. If needed I'd feel comfortable carrying it. Nice accuracy. Very nice actually.

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Maple_City_Woodsman
November 10, 2011, 12:21 PM
I'd try to get a close in ambush hit on the threat, press the muzzle up against my opponent's head, and then fire repeatedly. It maximizes the probability that I score an incapacitaion hit while under stress with a low caliber weapon.

IMO that is the worst advice thus far in this thread. Talk about indefensible actions! :what:

Have fun in prison.

Justin
November 10, 2011, 12:26 PM
Agreed. That advice is just utterly terrible for both tactical and legal reasons.

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earplug
November 10, 2011, 12:39 PM
Federal Bulk pack 22 LR is working well for me and the other 22 shooters that I compete with. It cost less then CCI and has good reliablity with numerous types of 22 pistols.
Steel Challange might be a fun training game for you.

David E
November 10, 2011, 01:09 PM
I'd try to get a close in ambush hit on the threat, press the muzzle up against my opponent's head, and then fire repeatedly. It maximizes the probability that I score an incapacitaion hit while under stress with a low caliber weapon.

Apparently, you thought that "self defense" meant "mafia assassin"........:rolleyes:

Sky
November 10, 2011, 02:49 PM
Yep it seems the old federal bulk this last year has improved; or my weapons have?

Ben86
November 10, 2011, 05:47 PM
Apparently, you thought that "self defense" meant "mafia assassin"........

That's hilarious. I'd like to suggest making a get away by either throwing a smoke grenade and slinking into the darkness or using a grappling hook gun to reach a high roof and get away leaping from roof top to roof top with a full moon as your backdrop.

Federal bulk pack is fantastic, but doesn't seem to expand much from my experience. That only matters if you want to use it for hunting.

PO2Hammer
November 10, 2011, 09:37 PM
FWIW, CCI Velocitors only clock about 1,050 fps out of my 5" revolver, the same speed as Mini Mags, so I don't see any advantage to them in a handgun.

Velocitors run 1,380 fps from a 16" rifle though, pretty darn good for a full 40 grain load.

In an auto pistol I would choose Stingers for the reliable CCI priming, extra recoil to operate the gun reliably, the nickel plated cases for easy extraction and the speed out of a handgun for power/expansion.

If I were in the OP's shoes I would consider a 10/22 youth carbine and Velocitors.
Youtube video of Velocitor in gel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEDo_PbAvJc)

Dogguy
November 13, 2011, 12:22 PM
Given your limitations and choices and the fact that your gun appears to function perfectly and accurately, I would load it up with CCI Stingers as you are doing and consider myself as well-armed as possible.

PT92
November 13, 2011, 12:57 PM
I'd try to get a close in ambush hit on the threat, press the muzzle up against my opponent's head, and then fire repeatedly. It maximizes the probability that I score an incapacitaion hit while under stress with a low caliber weapon. Admittedly, it's a terrible piece of advice, but if I am in a situation where a 22lr pistol is my only means of defense, I don't think cartridge choice is going to matter that much.
I agree that a .22lr is not a first choice for HD/CCW, but one loaded up with CCI Stingers makes me "feel" rather secure. My BUG is a Beretta 21A Bobcat and it's entirely reliable cycling this load.

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt163/markewall/21a-1.jpg

-Cheers

Justin
November 13, 2011, 11:19 PM
I know it's outside of the scope of what the OP asked for in this thread, but something worth considering might be one of the FN FiveSeven pistols.

It's a centerfire round, which means it will be more reliable than the vast majority of rimfire ammunition on the market.

Ballistically, the round achieves the same velocities from a handgun that you'd get from a rifle firing .22 magnum.

It has extremely low recoil, easily the least felt recoil of any centerfire handgun I've shot.

And the standard magazine capacity is 20 rounds, which is nothing to sneeze at.

The only thing that might be an issue is that the FiveSeven is a service-size handgun, and therefore might be a bit too bulky for concealed carry.

Pyro
November 13, 2011, 11:33 PM
I'd go for a premium CCI lrn .22 bullet.
I wouldn't go for the HP bullets because of the lighter weights.

lloveless
November 14, 2011, 05:05 PM
One other problem with scoring your bullets is that they might not feed as well.
ll

FIVETWOSEVEN
November 14, 2011, 11:49 PM
Even though it has already been mentioned, the FiveseveN is a good choice if it's recoil doesn't bother you and you can afford it. With the right rounds, it is up to .45 ACP in wounding capabilities.

Ben86
November 15, 2011, 03:03 PM
Has anyone checked out the RIA micro mag .22 tcm? If you are into 1911s and wanted something in .22 that is one bad little caliber. From what I've read it gets better velocity from a pistol than 5.7x28 does. It probably costs a pretty penny though.

Maple_City_Woodsman
November 15, 2011, 08:18 PM
FWIW, CCI Velocitors only clock about 1,050 fps out of my 5" revolver, the same speed as Mini Mags, so I don't see any advantage to them in a handgun.

I agree. The problem is there is only so much powder that can be burned in a 5" barrel. The Mini Mags seem to be the best option - you get twice as many for the same price, and the handgun performance is essentially the same.

I know it's outside of the scope of what the OP asked for in this thread, but something worth considering might be one of the FN FiveSeven pistols.


That is a good suggestion. I own a FiveSeven, and I overlooked it for one important reason - Price! The performance is certainly superior to a 22Lr for a similar level of recoil ... but at $1,000 for the gun and $.50 per round, its cost of operation is several orders of magnitude above any rimfire - an entirely different tier of investment.

pioneer461
November 15, 2011, 08:39 PM
CCI cranks out quality ammo, and they have a wide selection. Most of my .22 lr firearms perform best with CCI Mini-Mag ammo.

We do the best we can with what we have. As I enter the autumn of my life, I often reflect on which handgun I will ultimately be able to shoot best if recoil should become a problem for me. I've seen friends and colleagues who have had to quit shooting because of such things as arthritis. I may be in the early stages in my support hand.

I own 3 twenty-two caliber handguns. One is an antique (1908) Iver-Johnson, 8 shot revolver with 6 inch barrel. It has a very long and heavy double action trigger, but firing single action is manageable.

I also own a Sig Arms Mosquito. A very accurate and dependable pistol when cleaned and lubed properly. A joy to shoot.

Finally, I own a NAA Mini-revolver, with both .22 lr and .22 magnum cylinders. Being such a small pistol, the NAA would not be my first choice as it can be difficult to shoot accurately. The model I have has no rear sight, and there is a lot of pressure loss due to the extremely short barrel (1-1/8"). It's what my neighbor calls a "Get the f**k off of me gun."

There has been a lot of development in .22 ammo lately, mainly in the magnum loads. Ammo makers are loading magnums with jacketed, controlled expansion bullets, such as Speer Gold Dot, Federal TNT and Hornady Critical Defense. I expect they will be making some long rifle loads with those bullet options before too long.

In my personal unscientific tests, I have fired the magnum Federal rounds that expand to about 9mm and penetrate about 12 inches of water and the Gold Dots with a bit less expansion, although still impressive, with 15 inches penetration. I haven't had a chance to shoot the Hornady stuff yet, but I like their design concept. The jacketed bullets blossom nicely as they expand, unlike the lumps-o-lead we see in traditional .22 HP bullets.

Ask anyone who scoffs at the lowly .22 if they would like to be shot with one.

45crittergitter
November 19, 2011, 11:54 PM
In .22 LR, I'd most likely use the CCI Velociter (1145 fps from my Ruger pistol) or CCI Mini Mag +V (1286 fps from the Ruger pistol). But, consider a .22 Magnum.

Pyro
November 20, 2011, 12:26 AM
If it could feed em reliably, I'd make sure my .22 was broken in with this bullet. (http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/100rds-22lr-aguila-interceptor-40gr-solid-point-ammo/cName/22-long-rifle-ammo-solid-point)

Justin
November 20, 2011, 04:58 AM
That is a good suggestion. I own a FiveSeven, and I overlooked it for one important reason - Price! The performance is certainly superior to a 22Lr for a similar level of recoil ... but at $1,000 for the gun and $.50 per round, its cost of operation is several orders of magnitude above any rimfire - an entirely different tier of investment.

Regardless of the caliber, .22 LR will always be cheaper than just about any centerfire gun. But, yeah, I agree, the 5.7mm ammo is spendy, that is for sure and for certain.

FMF Doc
November 20, 2011, 10:33 PM
My aunt carries a Beretta 21A and likes the CCI Stinger in 37gr. If that feeds in your pistol, I would give it a try. Honestly, 12 rounds of anything into an attackers head will get the job done. To be honest, the first one of two probably get it done...the last 10 are just for good measure.

Sparelink
November 20, 2011, 11:14 PM
here is a video some 22lr rounds effectiveness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAkOzr6cDx0

epijunkie67
November 21, 2011, 12:02 PM
I notice you asked about which .22 to use for self defense because of your health issues. When I read that what I really see is someone who has problems with recoil due to health issues, and that is a whole different focus.

If you can fire a .22 pistol then you can lift the gun and pull the trigger. So a different question to ask would be "What light, low recoil pistols could I get that would be effective at self defense".

Yes, .22lr is an option but you really should investigate the .22mag pistol from Kel-Tec and the FN57. I own the FN and it truly does have the recoil of a .22lr.

When my wife wanted a self defense pistol for herself here at home (I work nights and she is alone a lot) I let her shoot quite a few. She turned out to be the most recoil adverse person I've ever known. She liked my .22 Buckmark target but hated everything else. 1911, 9mm, 45lc with cowboy loads, full sized steel frame .357 mag shooting .38 special, everything. She hated all of them.

I saved the FN57 for last. 3 rounds out of it and she turns to me and says,"Hey, I like this. It doesn't kick!" She then proceeds to chew a ragged hole into the center of the target with the remaining 17 rounds in about 12 seconds, tables the gun and says, "I just want you to know this is mine now. You can buy another one if you want but this one is going on my side of the bed." And there it has stayed ever since.

By all means use the .22lr if it truly is the only thing you can shoot or if the other options are too expensive. But please consider at least exploring other options that might still work well for you and be better self defense options as well.

chhodge69
November 21, 2011, 12:16 PM
Were I in your position I would choose a 38 special revolver loaded with target rounds. The weight, recoil and method are all virtually identical to a 22 but the effectiveness would be improved greatly.

PT92
November 22, 2011, 08:19 AM
My aunt carries a Beretta 21A and likes the CCI Stinger in 37gr. If that feeds in your pistol, I would give it a try. Honestly, 12 rounds of anything into an attackers head will get the job done. To be honest, the first one of two probably get it done...the last 10 are just for good measure.
This very rig/load is my BUG. I have total confidence in its cycling capability (absolutely critical when thinking of using rimfire in a semi) and while not so much in its stopping power, I feel rather confident if the need ever rose to deploy it.

-Happy Holidays

horsearcherwannabe
November 22, 2011, 06:47 PM
My grandfather was a itinerant country bucher. One christmass I gave him a 100 round box of the CCI minimag HP. For the next few years he used that box up shooting cattle with a bolt action rifle. There were no misfires and only one cow took a second shot. The cow that took a second shot was a cream white colored herford brahmin cross that had a wierd shaped head. I think gramps hit her a little to high.
I have a ruger 10-22 rifle that rides around behind my truck seat. I will let you guess what I have in the clip. BTW the rifle box is locked and attached to the truck by a cable. The clip is hidden seperatly. I had one widow smash and grab all ready. I don't want some SOB useing one of my guns on some one.

gofastman
November 22, 2011, 10:19 PM
I have had better luck with Aguila than CCI in the reliability department, not to say CCI is bad by any means.

just my $.02

Quaamik
November 23, 2011, 10:28 PM
I'd stick with Stingers if they are reliable and accurate.

For .22 LR reliability is the most important, accuracy second, penetration third and expansion should be an afterthought.

The .22 LR out of a pistol does not have energy to spare. It has to use much if its energy to penetrate. 9 inches of penetration (the minimum of the FBI protocals) is going to be a pipe dream for many versions of it. 9 inches of penetration and effective expansion? Forget about it - there isn't enough energy there to do both.

Practice a "failure to stop drill" (two in the chest followed by one in the head) until it becomes second nature.

Quaamik
November 23, 2011, 10:47 PM
A few others mentioned the possibiltiy ofother low recoil calibers. If you are financialy in the position to look at a different pistol (in my experiance finances aren't usually great when medical problems are in the picture) there are several good choices:

Ruger GP100 or SP101. These are heavy revolvers in .357 but have litteraly no recoil when loaded with .38 target loads. Depedning ont he medical issure, the gun weight may be too heavy though.

Taurus Titanium Tracker is also a .357 but a lot lighter than the Rugers. Loaded with .38 special target loads, the felt recoil of the tracker should be around that of a .22 LR in your Walther. Size is going to be larger though (not sure if you want to carry it).

The Kel-Tek PMR-30 is a .22 Magnum semi auto with a 4 1/2" barrel and a 30 round capacity. Recoild isn't much more than the .22 LR yet the added effectivness and number of rounds on tap make it a much better choice.

The FN FiveSeven is a semi auto in 5.7x28 witha 20 round magazine. Recoil is about the same as the PMR30 (22 mag) but the centerfire ignition is more reliable an the cartridge packs a bit more punch out of a pistol than the .22 mag and more wounding power than the .38 special. It's downside is the expense of the gun and ammo.

Out of them all, the PMR-30 would be the one I'd look at hardest. Both the gun and the ammo are inexpensive (as such things go). Recoil should be manageable. Performance will be better than the .22LR. Last but not least, 30 rounds in the magazine is comforting.

wlewisiii
November 23, 2011, 11:58 PM
Had to? My wife's Colt Woodsman can't be beat as a .22 pistol. Put any decent round in it and it will do the trick if any .22 can.

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