What Grain of V-Max


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CJK8
August 24, 2011, 01:19 AM
Shooting .223 with 1:9 twist. I am inclined to go with 60 grain v-max. would 50 or 55 grain be better? Talking accuracy of course. Thanks.

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sourdough44
August 24, 2011, 06:33 AM
I'd try 55 grains, then 60.

cfullgraf
August 24, 2011, 07:57 AM
Try them both and use the one that shoots the best in your rifle.

Walkalong
August 24, 2011, 10:36 AM
It will stabilize either one, but, as posted, your rifle may prefer one over the other.

CJK8
August 24, 2011, 11:03 AM
when we say a a rifle may prefer one over the other, what amount of group size difference does that usually mean?

Walkalong
August 24, 2011, 11:56 AM
Sometimes is it small, and sometimes it will cut groups by up to a third, assuming both are quality bullets.

rcmodel
August 24, 2011, 12:25 PM
I shoot 55 grain V-Max in my 1/12 Colt carbine, as well as my 1/12 CZ-527.
Under MOA with either one is the norm when I have a good day at the bench.

They will do as well with 60 grain HP, but not so much with the longer plastic-tip 60 grain bullets.

You can just about pick your poison with a 1/9 barrel.
A 1:9 twist will stabilize bullet lengths equivalent to lead-core bullets of 40 to 73 grains in weight.

Remember, it's not the weight of the bullet, but the length of the bulllet that determines whether or not a 1/?? twist will stabilize it.
Plastic-Tip, VLD, and solid copper bullets are longer for any giving weight.

rc

CJK8
August 24, 2011, 12:57 PM
A 1:9 twist will stabilize bullet lengths equivalent to lead-core bullets of 40 to 73 grains in weight.

Remember, it's not the weight of the bullet, but the length of the bulllet that determines whether or not a 1/?? twist will stabilize it.
Plastic-Tip, VLD, and solid copper bullets are longer for any giving weight.

rc

Okay, that went right over my head. I have been set of 60 gr V-Max because it is a heavier grain and thought it would work better with a 1:9 twist. But it seems like you are saying ignore the weight and look at the length? I need a little more education on that please. How do I know the length of the bullet when only gr is listed? thanks.

MightyTygart
August 24, 2011, 01:11 PM
RC Model and CJK8 both make great points. After all the hours I've spent on these forums I have never heard of bullet length being the factor of stabilization. I'll stay tuned.

Walkalong
August 24, 2011, 01:24 PM
It is the length that matters, although we usually talk about bullet weight, not length. Most lead alloy copper jacketed bullets of the same weight are very similar in length, but not all, and when you get into specialty bullets with a lot of copper in them, it makes a difference.

cfullgraf
August 24, 2011, 03:45 PM
There are a couple of formulas out there that calculate what twist rate will stabilize a particular bullet. Bullet weight is not part of either of them by bullet length is.

The Greenhill formula is one and I forget the other(s).

wingman
August 24, 2011, 06:01 PM
I have 3 rifles 1/9 twist(223) all prefer the 52 gr bullet while they group several weights good the best is 52.

Jim Watson
August 24, 2011, 06:13 PM
Ed Harris pointed that out several years ago.
His 9 twist .223 would stabilize the 68-69 gr boattails, then the longest made, but it was still more accurate with the 52 gr benchrest type. That at 100 yards. If the range is long, wind gets to be more important than +/- .1 moa at 100.

wingman
August 24, 2011, 07:18 PM
Ed Harris pointed that out several years ago.
His 9 twist .223 would stabilize the 68-69 gr boattails, then the longest made, but it was still more accurate with the 52 gr benchrest type. That at 100 yards. If the range is long, wind gets to be more important than +/- .1 moa at 100.

Bingo and I was not clear as I was speaking of 100 yards only....

CJK8
August 24, 2011, 07:59 PM
So, before reading this, I was thinking the heavier the bullet the better up to about 75 gr in a 1:9 twist. Now, I throw weight out and focus on length. What length is best for a 1:9 twist and is longer better? And how do I find out what the length of a particular bullet is before actualy buying some and measuring them? In addition to understanding this for the long run, I want to try and make the right purchase the first time when I select two bullets to try for my first loads. Thanks.

wingman
August 25, 2011, 10:00 AM
As posted above consider distance your shooting,again at 100 yards a 52gr match, Sierra,Berger is difficult to beat but if reaching out 300 yards + then heavier bullets make a difference, most of my shooting I'm limited to 100yards and I've tried most of the bullets sold plus powder combinations.
Sample packs would be the answer but most manufactures won't play that game.;)

It's difficult to predict what will work in your rifle, I fired thousands of rounds of various combinations but that is part of the sport of reloading/shooting. I see a new powder or bullet come out got to have it somewhat like a golfer finding a new club on the market.

Funshooter45
August 25, 2011, 12:45 PM
The formulae are just guidelines, not gospel. Yeah, with a 1/9 twist you should be good to go on everything from 50-70 grains. But you still won't know what works the best until you buy a box and try them. That is why I have about 5-8 boxes of bullets for each cartridge I shoot just sitting on the shelf with about 25-30 bullets missing. Some of them shot terrible and those remaining 70 bullets in each box will likely sit there until I die. Some of the others were kind of mediocre and they sit there hoping that I buy a different rifle in that caliber that might work better. Or I might have a buddy who wants to experiment with them.

But that's just the way it goes. So in the meantiime, I have probably 25-30 partial boxes of bullets sitting on the shelf and my wife doesn't understand why I need to buy MORE bullets every month.

Do pay attention on these forums to some of the tried and true bullets that others have found. While it's true that each rifle is unique, it is also true that there are certain bullets that seem to work every time in about every rifle. Those reputations are well deserved. For instance, the 52 gr Hornady AMax in .224 cal and the 168 gr Sierra Match King in .308 caliber are legendary. And there are others. Those are the types of bullets that a feller wants to start with and compare the others to.

OldmanFCSA
August 25, 2011, 01:01 PM
I have a re-chambered 222 to 223 with a 1:14 twist - it likes 40gr
the 2 Ruger #1's with a 1:12 twist likes 53-55 gr - 1 likes 45grBT's
the Howa and Savage like the 60grHP's - unsure of twist rates
the Mini-14 with a 1:10 twist shoots anything very in-accurately (many thousands of bullets thru this rifle)
the 1 AR with a 24" barrel (twist???) likes 55fmj surplus >>>????????<<<
the 2 AR's with the 1:9 twists like 69gr
the 1 AR with a 1:8 twist likes 60-69gr
the 1 AR wilth a 1:7 twist likes single loadings with a 77-80gr

CJK8
August 25, 2011, 06:16 PM
I looked at the Load data for the 60 Grain V-Max in Horandy's book for Varget for .223. It shows min load of 21.7 gr and max load of 24.9 gr. Hodgdon's reloading data center shows min load of 25.0 gr and max load of 27.0. So, Hodgdon's website shows a staring load in excess of Hornady's max load. I spoke to Hodgdon and they first explained that Hornady uses Remington brass that has a smaller powder capacity than the Winchester brass that Hodgdon uses. But then I told them that Hornady's manual says it uses Winchester brass. They didn't know what to say about Hornady's data after that but just said their loads are tested and fine. So, what data do I use? Thanks.

CJK8
August 25, 2011, 07:50 PM
I looked at some of Sierra's load data and compared it to Hodgdon's. Sierra has a start load for Varget of 19.9. Hodgdon has starting load of 24.0. So, again I am confused as to where to start. I read you should not start below min load. Thanks.

cfullgraf
August 25, 2011, 10:26 PM
I looked at some of Sierra's load data and compared it to Hodgdon's. Sierra has a start load for Varget of 19.9. Hodgdon has starting load of 24.0. So, again I am confused as to where to start. I read you should not start below min load. Thanks.

Ah, one of the joys of reloading. Confusing data.

Yes, it is safest to not go below a published minimum, but if one company has a minimum below another, then it is safe to go to the lower number. The company with the lower minimum found it to be safe.

max loads are a different story as the there are many factors that affect whether a load is safe or not in YOUR rifle. Work up to max loads safely.

I have some rifles that I would not even attempt to go to max load as i feel i am reaching higher pressure before reaching the published value.

Some powders like W296/H110 are less tolerant to safe operation below minimum loads but even the published data between companies varies.

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