Cheapest 1/2 MOA .308


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bjs1187
August 25, 2011, 03:56 PM
Hi Everyone, what would you say is the cheapest .5 MOA gun on the market? Cheapest reliable optics to go with it?

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rehorne
August 25, 2011, 04:03 PM
AAAAAHHHH, .5 moa ? That has a lot to do with the nut behind the stock. There are a lot of bolt guns on the market now that will do that with a Nikon or Bushnell 3x9

CoRoMo
August 25, 2011, 04:07 PM
I agree. Even a $300 rifle might have that type of potential with a scope of half that price.

Robert
August 25, 2011, 04:12 PM
Why do you need .5 MOA? Are you looking to compete with this rifle or just for plinking? Do you want a semi auto or bolt action? I assume that you are on a tight budget since you are asking for the cheapest rifle available. Savage/ Stevens seem to be pretty dang good right our of the box. So in the mean time, Howda Pistol...

PreMod70
August 25, 2011, 04:12 PM
There ain't one.

C-grunt
August 25, 2011, 04:15 PM
Any manufacturere will put out a rifle that is capable of occasional .5 moa groups. If you want a consistant .5 moa rifle you are gonna spend some money.

Not sure why you need a .5 moa rifle becasue if you had the ability to shoot it that well you would already know the answer.

W.E.G.
August 25, 2011, 04:15 PM
I agree. Even a $300 rifle might have that type of potential with a scope of half that price.

Let us know when you find that $450 half-minute rig.
We won't even count the cost of the rings or the bases in the total cost.

100 yards
Two targets
5 shots each target
Each target fired one right after the other
5-shot groups must measure no more than half-inch, center-to-center

Yeah, I want to see that.

bjs1187
August 25, 2011, 04:26 PM
All of you are right. I'm not capable of 1/2 MOA accuracy. And I'm not going to be able to spend $1000 this year it doesn't look like. The reason then that I want something that shoots that way, is that in my experience with other things, it is easier to learn to do something with a good tool, than a poor one. .5 MOA is just something that I came up with for the sake of it. Also, and yes I would like to compete someday. Probably not in the couple of years though.

Funshooter45
August 25, 2011, 04:30 PM
Going to 0.5 MOA raises the bar considerably. There are a lot of fairly cheap rifles out there that can deliver consistent groups less than 1 MOA. I venture to say that a $300 Stevens with a $150 Nitrex (at Natchez while they last folks) will shoot less than 1" all day long. A couple years ago I would say the same about a Marlin XS7. And there are other fairly cheap rifles like Tikka, Weatherby Vanguard, TC Venture that will all give less than 1 MOA with a suitable handload.

But the question is 0.5 MOA. That's different territory for sure. And not just everybody can take a great half minute rifle and start shooting half inch groups. It takes a lot of practice to shoot those kinds of groups every time.

b7tac
August 25, 2011, 04:48 PM
Most "accuracy problems" with rifles are user induced, as are .5 moa groups. "What is the CHEAPEST .5 moa rifle" is just such an odd question.

Btw to answer your question... Probably a Remington 770:rolleyes:

C-grunt
August 25, 2011, 04:55 PM
All of you are right. I'm not capable of 1/2 MOA accuracy. And I'm not going to be able to spend $1000 this year it doesn't look like. The reason then that I want something that shoots that way, is that in my experience with other things, it is easier to learn to do something with a good tool, than a poor one. .5 MOA is just something that I came up with for the sake of it. Also, and yes I would like to compete someday. Probably not in the couple of years though.
You are probably gonna have to spend a good bit more than 1k to get a true .5 moa rifle. If I was in the market for a .5 moa rifle I would be looking at Surgeon rifles or a comparable maker. If you want a true .5 moa rifle you are looking at spending a few grand on the rifle.

RickMD
August 25, 2011, 05:24 PM
There ain't one.

Agreed. I've owned over one hundred bolt action rifles during my lifetime and the only two factory guns that shot .5 MOA were Remington 40X's. I spend a lot of time at the local club with some highly accomplished riflemen and never saw anyone constantly shoot .5" groups with any factory, sporting weight rifle. The greatest group shrinking device known to man seems to be a computer keyboard.

Redlg155
August 25, 2011, 05:48 PM
lets not forget load development. Shooters often spend a lot of time and money fine tuning the right combination of brass, bullet, powder, case OAL, bullet seating depth...and the list goes on.

A .5 MOA shooter with factory ammo?..that' s a special rifle and rifleman.

b7tac
August 25, 2011, 06:55 PM
The greatest group shrinking device known to man seems to be a computer keyboard.

Well said my friend.

BoilerUP
August 25, 2011, 09:36 PM
Its not the arrow, its the indian.

That said, taking the time to develop a handload a given rifle likes can make half-MOA groups substantially more likely from a factory rifle...cuz you ain't gonna do it with green-box Rem or silver-box Win soft points.

nathan
August 25, 2011, 10:10 PM
remington police sniper.

benzy2
August 25, 2011, 10:15 PM
Doesn't Wilson come with a .5 MOA guarantee? Also, if you are willing to deal with 3/4 MOA, RRA's float tube models all come with a 3/4 MOA guarantee.

greyling22
August 25, 2011, 10:32 PM
probably a savage. they make a very accurate gun.

when I was looking at the savage axis a bit I found a couple of gun mag type tests where they were getting under 3/4 inch groups. that's both accurate and about the cheapest rifle I can think of.

optics wise, redfield and vortex are good vaues. I have a 6-20 nitrex, and the glass is good, but the eye relief and position are not. if I was going to get a high powered scope on teh cheap I'd look for the simmons whitetail midway puts on for around 100 bucks. they might even still have the $20 rebate on those.

sarduy
August 25, 2011, 10:36 PM
Let us know when you find that $450 half-minute rig.
We won't even count the cost of the rings or the bases in the total cost.

100 yards
Two targets
5 shots each target
Each target fired one right after the other
5-shot groups must measure no more than half-inch, center-to-center

Yeah, I want to see that.
not a .308 but....there you gohttp://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=savage+96701&gs_upl=1232l5049l0l5727l8l8l0l1l1l1l617l2127l0.3.2.5-2l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=819&bih=502&wrapid=tlif131432264758310&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=18130811216250292164&sa=X&ei=QPlWTuDWL6bc0QG-xtXADA&ved=0CEQQ8wIwAA#

Badlander
August 25, 2011, 10:41 PM
If you believe what is posted on the net nearly every model of rifle shoots .5" for someone. .5" is asking A lot.

1stmarine
August 26, 2011, 12:13 AM
Remington SPS / police.
Savage 110 Police.

Scopes, it depends if you want mils or you want bullet drop/comp.
Not so expensive scopes.. don't like cheap ones....

Burris Fulfield/others
Redfield (made by leupold here in the USA!)

Vortex Viper
Nikon Monarch (others might do too)

If you want to get dirt cheap then get a mossberg 4x4 with a burris timberline scope. Will not do the above but will not be too far behind.

sansone
August 26, 2011, 05:22 AM
group size claims are like fish stories..
"It was THIS big" ..LOL

Racinready300ex
August 26, 2011, 01:47 PM
I have a savage I got for about 300 bucks. While I've had it I put several different barrels on it, all could agg .5" at 100 yards with hand loads. The gun now has a shilen barrel that can typ. do .5 MOA at 600 yards with only 500 dollars in the gun.

JoeMal
August 26, 2011, 01:54 PM
I agree with the Savage. Have one in .223 and it can do under 1 MOA when I do my part with factory ammo. .5 MOA? I HAVE done it, but certainly not on a regular basis.

helotaxi
August 26, 2011, 02:38 PM
Best potential for the least money would probably be a Savage action with an aftermarket barrel. The optics don't have to be spectacular, only consistent. The role of the rings and bases are, IMO, greatly overstated. They need to be straight and hold the scope solidly. Neither of those requirements are cosmic or cost a ton of money to do right.

svaz
August 26, 2011, 05:09 PM
IMHO, the best value for the fewest greenbacks would be a Savage 110 w/ a Burris Fullfield II 3x9. Is it .5 MOA? Luck of the draw, but it'll be ~ 1 MOA and that should be good enough to practice on until you know you can outshoot the gun. Of course, that'll take more $ in ammo than you put into the rig to begin with, but it's a place to start. Good luck.

Andrew Wyatt
August 26, 2011, 05:13 PM
I spent 1600 on mine, all up, including rings and scope and case. lemmie know if you can find one for less.

jon_in_wv
August 26, 2011, 05:16 PM
Are we looking at .5 MOA at 100 yards or further out? My Savage FCPK with a Millet TRS-1 would drop put five shots into one little cloverleaf at 100Y with my handloads but it didn't seem to hold quite that tight the further out I went. Most of that was probably me but that Savage was way more accurate than I was. To shoot up to its potential further out was all about skill, not the rifle at that point and I think more expensive optics and a more stable shooting platform than my shoulder.

1stmarine
August 26, 2011, 09:45 PM
Sansone,
I guess there are a lot of fish stories out there LOL!!...

Last SPS out of the box still untouched. 1st day break in....

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/REM_700_SPS_TAC/100_6562bb.jpg

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/fotoeiro/REM_700_SPS_TAC/100_6580b.jpg

In line with most folks are getting... Here is another 'fish story' LOL!...
http://www.snipercentral.com/spstactical.htm



..

sixgunner455
August 26, 2011, 09:57 PM
Cheapest doesn't mean you're going to do it cheaply. And, it ain't likely that you're ever gonna do it with a sporter-weight, off the shelf 500 dollar rifle. 1MOA? Sure. .5 MOA? Stars gotta align just right for that.

But, you can do it, if you're willing to put in a bit of effort, and some more money (just like racing cars). Put a lapped, match barrel on a Savage action - that's cheaper than putting the same barrel on any other action, since you can do it yourself instead of paying a gunsmith to true, install, and headspace it. Put that barreled action in a solid stock, like a McMillan or something. Put some solid mounts and rings on it. Put a good scope on it - this is the only place you MIGHT save some money, because you might be able to get away with something less expensive than a $300 SuperSniper, like a $150 Redfield or Nikon. No, none of those is a Zeiss Conquest, but we're talking about doing this w/o spending the kids' college money.

So, the Shilen (or pick your favorite) barrel = $345, chrome moly match
The McMillan stock = $500, fully inlet, add more money if you have to have a cheekpiece saddle or spacers.
If you already have a donor rifle for the action, then you just have to put it together. If you need to buy an action, or a donor rifle, then you have to add that in. A Stevens 200 rifle is about $300. If you want your rifle to have an Accutrigger, then you have to pay more.
Super Sniper scope is $300, Nikon or Redfield is about $150.
345+500+300+300=$1445 with the Super Sniper, $1295.

That rig will probably get you close to .5MOA, especially if you skim bed the action. That is, of course, assuming that you can shoot half-minute groups.

Not cheap, but definitely doable.

About $1500 bucks.

BK
August 26, 2011, 10:27 PM
Someone needs to go ahead and make a wager here.

scythefwd
August 26, 2011, 10:30 PM
c-grunt - you are aware there was a .5 moa gun that was built by RWDale here that was around 1k. Several thousand on a rifle may a little bit overkill.

I believe he was using
SSS recoil lug
stevens 200 action
custom bolt face (7.62x39)
Match barrel, don't remember the maker
choate stock with aluminum bedding block
forget the maker of the trigger

He posted pics of <.4 inch groups and I believe he was fairly consistent at <1 inch at 200y

1stmarine
August 26, 2011, 10:44 PM
Going to the gun shop.. 4 bucks (gas)
Pickup up a Remington SPS Tactical AAC ...700 dollars
Pickup 50 rounds of M118LR or SMK reloads... 20 bucks
Go to the range and pick up a coke at the bar... $3 gas. $1coke
Shooting between 1/4 and 1/2 MOA all day... priceless.

LOL

klutchless
August 26, 2011, 10:55 PM
.5 MOA at 100 yards I did that free hand with my 1911 last week.:what:No I realy didn't but a savage 110 action with a aftermarket barrel is usualy the easiest and cheapest way to go.Most importantly is to shoot your gun until you can out shoot it.Then work your way up a good trigger, bedded barrel, good rest good scope, good stock, good barrel.I shoot a savage 110 270 win with a factory barrel had the action and barrel bedded with the factory stock and hopefully a nice nikon to replace my old redfield soon and have yet to out shoot the rifle.Only about 1200 invested in the gun so far on hard parts and about 4000 in ammo and handloading equipment.I can get 1 inch groups out to 200 yards consistantly but the rifle is capable of better and have yet to get a new barrel , or bolt.Most of your money will go into working up handloads not normaly in the rifle.

1stmarine
August 26, 2011, 11:02 PM
klutchless,
I agree for the most part but with the latest Rem SPS and Savage 110 tactical I find the triggers to be right on. Adjustable too. A bit rough action on the SPS but I don't care and in the end the results speak by themselves.
Everyone knows they both are great baselines and you are right about they are great for upgrades with huge aftermarket but as per these two I am going to leave the Savage untouched and the SPS above might only upgrade the stock. We'll see. That's it.
When the barrel is shot I might replace with the original or with a shilen or a LH/etc.. but I couldn't ask for more on that price range.

357_
August 27, 2011, 12:17 AM
I have this feeling that if you need to ask that question the limiting factor in .5 moa will be you. And just so you don't think I'm picking on you, I can't do it either!

Otherwise, look at T/C. They seem to have some good value on their new bolt actions.

Damon555
August 27, 2011, 01:18 AM
As already stated....every internet gun is a .5 moa gun. Digging though gun classifieds should net you a .5 gun easily....well at least that's what the ads all say.

Example...copied and pasted from another forum.....


Rem 700 22-250 cal. w/Swift 8-32x50 and Harris Bipod
OK, I have to sell my long range Remington 700, 22-250. This rifle is in like new condition, only 20 rounds shot through it while sighted in after being upgraded. She has a beautiful laminated monti carlo style stock, jeweled bolt, glassed action and bedded bull barrel, weaver mounts and rings, Swift 8-32x50 scope w/sunshade and lense caps, Harris bipod and black soft rifle case. All is included, ready to shoot. This rifle will shoot 1/2" to 1" groups at a 1/4 mile and is by far the most accurate rifle I have ever shot. I'm prior service Army, expert qualified and grew up Hunting and long range target shooting so, I know a little something about accuracy. This is an exceptional rifle and meant for taking out and using, not showing off to your buddies in your living room and putting back in the safe. I'm asking $1750.00 OBO (serious offers please) shipped to your FFL, I'll accept Money order, Pay Pal or Cashiers check. If you like, you can pick the FFL dealer in my area, send the payment and I will let him know it has arrived (and cleared) and he can send it out to your FFL dealer. No funny stuff with me, I protect myself and your protecting yourself. I'm working on photos now...
Thanks,
FISHBOY
PICTURES - Rem 700, 22-250
Last edited 08-20-2011 at 09:05 PM.

TonyAngel
August 27, 2011, 04:40 AM
Bone stock Remington SPS Tactical in .308 at 100 yards.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/ajangelettejr/Groups/DSC_0005-2.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/ajangelettejr/Groups/DSC_0006-2.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/ajangelettejr/Groups/DSC_0007.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s265/ajangelettejr/Groups/DSC_0008.jpg

I feel that considering the technologies available to manufacturers these days, it isn't hard to get a rifle that shoots well. Although my present rifle doesn't have anything on it made by Remington except the receiver, I didn't build the custom rig for increased accuracy. I had it built because I wanted a tighter chamber for more velocity, a smoother bore so that I could shoot hundreds of rounds before I had to remove copper fouling, and I wanted the rifle to maintain its accuracy as the barrel got hot. A Krieger barrel and a good smith gave me these things; but if I got an increase in accuracy, I'm not a good enough shooter to see it.

Spartan Gladiator
August 27, 2011, 04:50 AM
I would agree and say savage followed by remington.

kemper
August 27, 2011, 05:17 AM
Let us know when you find that $450 half-minute rig.
We won't even count the cost of the rings or the bases in the total cost.

100 yards
Two targets
5 shots each target
Each target fired one right after the other
5-shot groups must measure no more than half-inch, center-to-center

Yeah, I want to see that.
What about a 3 shot group as you described instead of 5. Would that count ? How much easier would it be to shoot .5 moa with only a 3 shot group ?

coloradokevin
August 27, 2011, 07:04 AM
Agreed. I've owned over one hundred bolt action rifles during my lifetime and the only two factory guns that shot .5 MOA were Remington 40X's. I spend a lot of time at the local club with some highly accomplished riflemen and never saw anyone constantly shoot .5" groups with any factory, sporting weight rifle. The greatest group shrinking device known to man seems to be a computer keyboard.

But, I doubt you'll find any sporting weight custom guns that do that "constantly" either, unless they're in the hands of an extremely accomplished shooter. The trigger puller makes a huge difference when we're talking about 1/2 moa accuracy, and even with a good shooter it is hard to claim that the gun will "constantly" do anything.

There are certainly factory guns that can shoot 0.5 MOA fairly consistently, but I think there is a lot more variation between guns in this pricing category (in other words, two identical guns of a given make/model may result in one that is barely 1 moa, and a second gun that can drive it to under 0.5 moa).

As I've mentioned in other posts, my Tikka T3 regularly (but NOT constantly) shoots half inch 3 or 5-shot groups at 100 yards when I do what I'm supposed to, and it was an $800 off the shelf gun. According to my log book I've recorded groups of this size at least 12 times since I got this rifle last year (mostly 5 shot groups), and the gun has only had about 225 rounds down the pipe total (a lot of which was either during load development, or while shooting at longer range steel without recording group sizes).

I've also known a number of folks who own Remington 700P models that shoot dimes at 100 yards all day long, and I have a friend with a Remington 700 SPS Tactical AAC that will also shoot half inch groups with much more surprising regularity than I would have expected from that "value priced" tactical gun. I know some strong supporters of Savage rifles, but haven't witnessed their performance firsthand.

There are a lot of factors that go into making an accurate shot, and I don't think the true accuracy potential of many guns ever truly gets realized. For example, the Tikka I mentioned above was shooting just under 1" groups with Gold Medal Match ammunition, which is obviously a very popular factory match load. But, when I started handloading that very same bullet I shrunk the group sizes dramatically, and most recently shot two back-to-back five shot groups at 100 yards that measured 0.305" and 0.334" CTC.

But, while my Tikka has been a great shooter, I doubt the company could guarantee that every rifle of the same model would perform as well as mine has (they do, however, guarantee 3-shots into 1" at 100 yards, which is still a nice statement about their rifles).

RickMD
August 27, 2011, 10:16 AM
The criteria used by the NRA in all of their rifle tests is five, five shot groups fired sequentially at 100 yards. Not one group here and another there and certainly not three shot groups.

BoilerUP
August 27, 2011, 10:25 AM
Again...its the indian, not the arrow.

bjs1187
August 27, 2011, 10:56 AM
Thanks to all of you for your input. I think I have decided to wait a few months and save a few hundred more dollars. That said, I don't think I'm going custom or anything close, because I'm not sure the Indian can handle that bow.

Thanks,
Ben

1stmarine
August 27, 2011, 01:18 PM
The criteria of the NRA is one of many.
3 wholes in rapid fire and get out of there is another one. The most practical in the real world, even including hunting.
There are several reasons why to avoid more shots ...

Train as you fight.

coloradokevin
August 27, 2011, 01:30 PM
The criteria used by the NRA in all of their rifle tests is five, five shot groups fired sequentially at 100 yards. Not one group here and another there and certainly not three shot groups.

Well, you bring up a valid point here, which is establishing a uniform set of standards for testing. The NRA may not have the same standard as another organization, or another shooter. If we aren't all on the same page, then it is easy to say that someone is exaggerating a claim that they aren't (incidentally, all of my groups have been witnessed by more than one other shooter, and the targets have been saved).

Personally, I can tell you that I haven't yet shot the 5 back-to-back five-shot groups you mentioned. But, I haven't tried to do that, either, since it just seems like dumping ammo at a project that didn't really have any meaning to me at the time. Maybe my gun could do it, and maybe it couldn't. Maybe I could do it, maybe I couldn't. I don't know, but I can say that in my instance my gun shoots groups of this size on a fairly regular basis, as I explained in detail in my last post (and, I do have the two back to back 5-shot groups in the 0.3's that I mentioned).

The point I was really trying to highlight, though, is that some guns are capable of class-leading accuracy, even if they were "cheap". But, the issue of finding a capable individual within a given model becomes harder. And, other issues such as ammo choice also play a significant role.

helotaxi
August 27, 2011, 03:33 PM
The criteria of the NRA is one of many.
3 wholes in rapid fire and get out of there is another one. The most practical in the real world, even including hunting.
There are several reasons why to avoid more shots ...

Train as you fight.

Group size has almost nothing to do with fighting...but, since you want to go that route. Benchrest shooting deals with group size and is pretty much the only "fight" that does. 5 shot groups are the benchrest standard. High-power requires an accurate rifle and calls for 10+ shot strings.

3 shots lacks statistical significance. The degree of confidence from a 3-shot group is very low. 7 shots is about the min to get a reasonable degree of confidence.

cacoltguy
August 27, 2011, 06:32 PM
Since nobody has mentioned it yet I'll through my vote in for a Weatherby Vanguard Sub-MOA. They all ship with factory test targets (3 shot groups FWIW) Maybe you can shop around for the best test target. Mine came with a test target of exactly .5 inches and I have found the claim to be accurate. I get 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards somewhat regularly with Federal GMM and when I don't its not because of the rifle. I recently started a load workup with Varget and Sierra 175 matchkings and had some groups at just over a 1/4 inch. I couldn't be happier with the rifle. (Scope is a Leupold Mk 4 10x) In this price range I feel comfortable recommending the Weatherby. Savage would be a good choice as well. Personally I'd choose either of them over a Remington 700 these days. Remington Quality Control seems to be hit or miss the last few years.

coloradokevin
August 27, 2011, 07:53 PM
Group size has almost nothing to do with fighting...but, since you want to go that route. Benchrest shooting deals with group size and is pretty much the only "fight" that does. 5 shot groups are the benchrest standard. High-power requires an accurate rifle and calls for 10+ shot strings.

3 shots lacks statistical significance. The degree of confidence from a 3-shot group is very low. 7 shots is about the min to get a reasonable degree of confidence.

But, of course, nothing is ever set in stone when deciding how one chooses to gauge accuracy. A 3-shot group may provide less statistical confidence than a 7-shot group, but that doesn't mean that you aren't getting valuable information from those groups. If a gun can consistently shoot a .5 inch 3-shot group, group after group, I'd say we could be pretty confident in that rifle's ability to shoot 3-shots into that group size in the future.

In my mind benchrest competitors definitely have the most stringent definitions of accuracy, since their game really does push the limits of such things. In many other disciplines (particularly among recreational shooters who are asking for an accurate gun) a nice 3-shot group meets their definition of required accuracy.

For me, a 5-shot group will do, and for others it counts for nothing unless a 10-shot group is posted!

slowr1der
August 27, 2011, 08:18 PM
Savage 10 or 110 with some good handloads that the gun likes can probably get you fairly close. Heck, I shot under .5" groups at 100 yards with a stock Savage Model 10 .243 with handloads it liked and the Simmons scope that comes packaged on it from Walmart. Now, they might not all shoot that well, but everyone I've seen has shot well under 1" groups.

Let us know when you find that $450 half-minute rig.
We won't even count the cost of the rings or the bases in the total cost.

100 yards
Two targets
5 shots each target
Each target fired one right after the other
5-shot groups must measure no more than half-inch, center-to-center

Yeah, I want to see that.The only part of this it would have had a problem with would be the 5 shot groups on each target one right after the other. The barrel seemed to heat up after 5 rounds to the point where you needed to let it cool or groups would start opening up. If you fired a 5 shot group and then let it cool before the next group, I have no doubt it could do this.


That being said, I'd upgrade the cheap scope they come with as soon as you can afford it, but they seem to get you by until you can afford something better.

1stmarine
August 27, 2011, 08:19 PM
unfortunately, always the same story.

benzy2
August 28, 2011, 12:24 AM
We aren't talking about hunting nor combat. We are talking about paper punching. Paper doesn't run away. Paper doesn't require you to reposition. All of this BS about it has NOTHING to do with the thread or comments made in it.

As for five 3 shots groups being the same as 3 five shot groups, it isn't. Would 15 one shot groups be the same as 1 fifteen shot group? Nope. When you look at it statistically, three close shots are fairly likely to happen. The more you shots in a group, the closer to the rifles true ability you see. It follows the bell shaped curve.

Because we only look at the two furthest points, all others but those mean nothing. If you're rifle shoots say 2/3rds or the rounds fired into .5MOA diameter from center, 1/6ths of the rounds into 1MOA, and the last 1/6th into 1.5MOA group size means a lot. Lets, just for fun, say that the point of aim was at the center of a bullseye. Lets say the 10 ring is .5MOA big, the 9 ring is 1MOA, and the 8 ring is 1.5MOA.

Taking the above, the rifle would put 20 rounds into the 10 ring, 5 rounds into the 9 ring, and 5 rounds into the 8 ring. Now with that visual, lets look at what things look like on target. If you shot 10 three shot groups, you could expect to see some groups with all three shots in the center 10 ring (there are 20 rounds that landed there). Now, when you shoot and have two in the 10 ring and one in the 9, your group is only the distance from the two furthest shots. The 9 was statistically expected from the group and could have landed at any point in the 9 ring. So rather than seeing the group as the diameter of the 9 ring outside to outside, we see it as the distance from the round in the 9 ring and the furthest round in the 10 ring. When we look at the groups with hits in the 8 ring, the same is true. If we have a 9 and an 8 in the same group as well as a 10 you can potentially ignore the 9 as the 8-10 distance could be the furthest two points. So you show 6 or so great groups, 2 good groups, and 2 ok groups. When you average them out, you end up closer to great than either good or ok. On the other hand, if you took all 30 and took the two furthest points, you would say you had a much worse shooter, yet the only thing that changes is the way you look classify each shot.

I'll try to get a few pictures up shortly to show what I mean as a visual makes this much easier to understand.

Here are pics of the target where 5 are in the 8 ring, 5 are in the 9 ring, and 20 are in the 10 ring.

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/7241/target1a.jpg

Now, its colored broken into three shot groups to show what a given 3 shot group shows. Most 3 shot groups would fit in the 10 ring but that isn't how they hit.

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/552/target2.jpg

Now it's broken down to 6 shot groups. The average for group size is up quite a bit from the 3 shot groups. All that was done was two 3 shot groups were merged.

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7262/target3.jpg

Now it's broken down into two 15 shot groups. Each of the two groups is close to the total 30 round group size.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3885/target4.jpg

And again the complete 30 round group.

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/7241/target1a.jpg

What does this show? It shows that 3 round groups don't always tell the full story. It shows that more shots in a group gets you closer to the true capability of the rifle. It also shows why shooting for score is a good option to test the ability of a rifle setup.

Not that this has to do with the best rifle for the money, but it gets old hearing 10 three shot groups mean as much as 3 ten shot groups.

Smokey in PHX
August 28, 2011, 12:53 PM
I have shot rifles all my life like many here. Periodicly I do testing of rifles for different agencies. Primarily for basic function checks and accuracy. These rifles are designed for short range accuracy [400 yards and less for the most part]. There are three of us that shoot and I have come to the conclusion that all of you guys or many at least shoot much better than we do. We just do not get the groups that you do. We get MOA but not all the time and .5 MOA is rare in a five shot group, actually very rare in what we are shooting. These are not competion target rifles but are rifles designed for better than normal accuracy.

If my hunting rifle gets an average 5 shot group at 1.5 to 2 MOA I am happy.

coloradokevin
August 28, 2011, 02:44 PM
Smokey,

Your post has one thing that stands out to me that might explain the difference in group sizes you're experiencing: "I do testing of rifles for different agencies. Primarily for basic function checks and accuracy."

I assume by that statement that you mean you are using factory ammo, as we do in all of our work rifles as well. My rifle isn't shooting 1/2 MOA with factory ammo, but does so on a fairly regular basis with handloads (again, NOT every single time). Typical accuracy with factory match ammo appears to be in the .75 MOA range, with less consistency than my handloads (some factory loaded groups have been down to the .5's, others around 1-inch).

If you are using agency ammo, you probably aren't going to see the true potential out of those rifles, even if they are still fairly accurate!


5-shot group with Tikka, at 100 yards (rifle was zeroed for 200 yards at that time, I believe):

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=139839&d=1301896382


Coin shots at 100 yards. Note: three other shots were taken at coins in this sequence, with two non-center hits on one penny, and another hit on a different penny. Those shots didn't pass cleanly through the coin like these, which is why they aren't pictured:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=141340&d=1304161118



And, as you mentioned, required accuracy for hunting is not as tight as it is for target shooting.

Redneck with a 40
August 28, 2011, 03:28 PM
I've got a Remington 700 SPS Tactical in .308, 20" bull barrel, Nikon 3-9x40 prostaff scope. Shooting prone from a bipod, I can consistently get 1" (5) shot groups at 100 yards. I would say about 1 out of 4 of my groups are between .5-.75".

Last weekend was my best shooting day yet with this rifle, I did (3) 5 shot groups, the first was 5/8 of an inch, the second was 7/8 of an inch, and third was back at 5/8 of an inch. Now for the last two groups, they were 1" and 1.25". I now know the rifle is fully capable of making .75" groups, which I'm thrilled with. It only took me about a year of shooting to perfect my handload, get it below MOA, lol!

Smokey in PHX
August 28, 2011, 10:16 PM
coloradokevin, you are correct handloads would probably reduce our groups. We do not use handloads.

Good target shooting, very impessive groups. I like the coins - nice.

M1key
August 29, 2011, 01:27 AM
40X....but it sure ain't no 300 dollar rifle.


M

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