"Sawed Off" .410 double barrel?


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addedpulp
August 25, 2011, 05:07 PM
Let me be clear. This wouldn't technically be a shotgun, it'd be a handgun, like the Leinad .410/.45LC double barrel derringers. I'm wondering why no one hasn't made a more authentic-looking double barrel handgun similar to the Road Warrior gun. I realize it's uses would be limited, but people still buy the Judge, the Leinads, the Mare's Leg, etc, just because of their cultural influence. Does anyone but Leinad make them?

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moonpie
August 25, 2011, 05:36 PM
the judge kicked it off but the 410 craze seems to have a cult standing. personally i'd like to see a return of the old 1930s Auto Burglar for sentimental reasons.

Tallinar
August 25, 2011, 05:48 PM
Why stop at .410? I'd like to see one like you're describing but in 16 or 20 guage.

USAF_Vet
August 25, 2011, 05:52 PM
16 or 20 gauge would put it over .50 caliber, therefore making it NOT a hand gun.

A double barrel .410 "sawn-off" would have to have rifled barrels to stay in the realm of hand gun, making any kind of shot less effective (unless you are shooting doughnuts).

too many drawbacks to make it anything but a novelty. Still, I'd be down for it shooting slugs.

hardluk1
August 25, 2011, 07:34 PM
ITHICA made several models back in the teens and twenties called Auto&Burglar. 20 ga, 16ga and 12 ga. Our local sherrif had a couple of them back in the 70's in collier county florida. No rifleing in them barrels and now very illegal today.

DWFan
August 25, 2011, 08:09 PM
Tallinar, Dixie Gun Works has you covered with their Howdah reproduction. Side by side rifled 50 cal or 20ga smoothbore. Yes, it's black-powder, but an excellent excuse to go to, as they say, "the dark side".

DWFan
August 25, 2011, 08:28 PM
Middlesex has both a flint-lock and cap-lock SxS 20ga.
http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/DoublePistols.shtml

forindooruseonly
August 25, 2011, 08:40 PM
ITHICA made several models back in the teens and twenties called Auto&Burglar. 20 ga, 16ga and 12 ga. Our local sherrif had a couple of them back in the 70's in collier county florida. No rifleing in them barrels and now very illegal today.

There are Ithaca Auto & Burglars out there in private hands, they fall under NFA rules as an AOW. The real prohibiting factor on those is the price. The last one I saw went at auction for over 8 thousand dollars. I should have bought one a long time ago when I thought 2 grand was waaay too high, but I foolishly didn't.

il_10
August 25, 2011, 08:43 PM
I'd love to have something like this, actually. The novelty would be really cool. Does anyone know of any place that sells virgin SxS shotgun receivers? I think this could be built pretty easily. Just order the receiver, built it like you would the standard SBS, but sleeve the shotgun barrels permanently with the rifled .410/.45lc barrels. Should be able to come out fairly cheaply using, say, a mix of stoeger and leinad parts.

hardluk1
August 26, 2011, 09:01 AM
Boy thats a pile of money for one. Most also look new. I got to shot the 16ga version. Makes a nice fire ball at night and recoil was very stout. grip over the top with other hand before shooting. The recoil did push to the rear as much as back , guess the grip helped to control it. Not small pistols for sure.

mdauben
August 26, 2011, 11:27 AM
16 or 20 gauge would put it over .50 caliber, therefore making it NOT a hand gun.
Taurus was showing a 20ga version of their 'Judge' revolvers at a show not too long ago.

http://helablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/taurus_28_hand_shotgun_1.jpg

It was probably initially just meant as a publicity stunt, but tumor is that BATF shot down (if you will pardon the pun) the idea of acutally producing and selling this monster.

The Lone Haranguer
August 26, 2011, 01:37 PM
Even with the "doughnut hole" pattern from a rifled barrel, I wouldn't want to stand in front of the three-pellet buckshot load, nor especially the slug load. :uhoh:

hardluk1
August 26, 2011, 03:02 PM
mdauben Look it up then look at the picture then call it what you want. IT was a handgun made in the mid teens in to the twenties. Some dumby today may not call it that but thats what it is.

Guess you could not figure out a missing T

addedpulp
August 26, 2011, 06:05 PM
There are Ithaca Auto & Burglars out there in private hands, they fall under NFA rules as an AOW. The real prohibiting factor on those is the price. The last one I saw went at auction for over 8 thousand dollars. I should have bought one a long time ago when I thought 2 grand was waaay too high, but I foolishly didn't.

If i were going to spend cash on the NFA tax, I'd just saw down an old 12ga.

mdauben
August 26, 2011, 06:37 PM
mdauben Look it up then look at the picture then call it what you want. I was a handgun made in the mid teens in to the twenties. Some dumby today may not call it that but thats what it is.
Huh? :confused:

Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say. :uhoh:

I double checked, and that gun was actually 28 guage (not 20) but still. If anyone is more interested, there's a video from Shot 2011 showcasing the monster.

Taurus demos Raging Judge 28-gauge Handgun (http://youtu.be/gNfZ1Xo_B64)

addedpulp
August 26, 2011, 06:42 PM
Huh? :confused:

Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say. :uhoh:

I believe he's trying to tell you it's definitely not a handgun by legal definitions... I really didn't take his meaning either, and there's no reason to call someone a "dumby."

mdauben
August 26, 2011, 06:45 PM
there's no reason to call someone a "dumby."
Huh, again. :confused:

Who called who a "dumby"? All I said was I didn't understand what he was trying to say.

addedpulp
August 26, 2011, 06:47 PM
Huh, again. :confused:

Who called who a "dumby"? All I said was I didn't understand what he was trying to say.

Some dumby today may not call it that but thats what it is.

I just assumed you were "some dumby" by his definition.

But the 28 gauge was ruled out as being a handgun round, so that model will not longer take off because each sale would require a $200 tax stamp.

CoRoMo
August 26, 2011, 06:52 PM
Posted by mdauben
... I was a handgun made in the mid teens in to the twenties. ...
Posted by mdauben
Huh?

Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say.
He was a handgun. He used to be a firearm, almost a century ago.

forindooruseonly
August 26, 2011, 07:52 PM
If i were going to spend cash on the NFA tax, I'd just saw down an old 12ga.

Yeah. That's what I did. But it just isn't the same... What I have is a sawed-off double barreled Ithaca, as opposed to an authentic Ithaca Auto & Burglar. Not nearly as cool, IMO. The rarity, the historical aspect, the fact that it was made like that by the factory, not by somebody chopping on a perfectly good side by side, makes a huge difference to me. Different strokes for different folks. I want the original.

There are a couple of major differences between a sawed off gun and the Auto & Burglar, particularly in the grip. The tang, triggers and wood sweep down an a steeper angle on the Auto & Burglar, giving it much more of a pistol grip.

addedpulp
August 26, 2011, 07:55 PM
Yeah. That's what I did. But it just isn't the same... What I have is a sawed-off double barreled Ithaca, as opposed to an authentic Ithaca Auto & Burglar. Not nearly as cool, IMO. The rarity, the historical aspect, the fact that it was made like that by the factory, not by somebody chopping on a perfectly good side by side, makes a huge difference to me. Different strokes for different folks. I want the original.

There are a couple of major differences between a sawed off gun and the Auto & Burglar, particularly in the grip. The tang, triggers and wood sweep down an a steeper angle on the Auto & Burglar, giving it much more of a pistol grip.

I just couldn't justify a $8k purchase.

hardluk1
August 27, 2011, 09:20 AM
mdauben Guess you couldn't figure out the missing T in the word ( it ). Not every one can type 100

addedpulp Even if the ithica is a 100 years old it was a handgun when and now just waaay to costly if you could find one and not easy to make legal. Just a cool old handgun. Only ones I have seen are no longer side by side . They were american and bond derringers and one company Spuper Commche made a single barrel boot gun type, longer barrel that sells for 175 bucks if still in business. sone-in-laws dad bought one a couple weeks back.

addedpulp
August 27, 2011, 11:58 AM
mdauben Guess you couldn't figure out the missing T in the word ( it ). Not every one can type 100

Even an explanation is difficult to understand.

It might be worth noting, mdauben wasn't the one making fun of you for saying "I" rather than "it." May want to check who you're responding to before unleashing the snark, especially when your posts have such difficulty making snese.

addedpulp Even if the ithica is a 100 years old it was a handgun when and now just waaay to costly if you could find one and not easy to make legal. Just a cool old handgun. Only ones I have seen are no longer side by side . They were american and bond derringers and one company Spuper Commche made a single barrel boot gun type, longer barrel that sells for 175 bucks if still in business. sone-in-laws dad bought one a couple weeks back.

http://www.missouriwhitetails.com/forums/files.php?pid=1881752&aid=146152

They also make an 11" version. The issue is it looks more like a cheap tool than a decent firearm.

waidmann
August 28, 2011, 01:20 AM
The SS Comanche with its 3" chamber and wad-lock is likely as good as you'll find off the shelf, legally, affordably.................

303tom
August 28, 2011, 01:56 AM
http://www.google.com/search?q=double+barrel+pistol&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=dfD&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=mslZTqGgAonGgAfVp5WWDA&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1680&bih=870

Kliegl
August 28, 2011, 02:32 AM
According to a Taurus rep there's no plans for a 28 gauge Raging Judge being sold here.

A Judge is a .45 Colt Pistol. It can shoot .410, but it is a pistol. A pistol must be .50 cal or less, else it becomes a Destructive Device. Thus, a 28 gauge pistol, 55 caliber, cannot exist, because it is too short to be a shotgun, and too big bored to be a pistol.

Yes, the law is stupid, but making a gun that would have to be AOW stamped, or SBS, I don't know which way you'd go, to be legal is not commercially viable.

I wouldn't want to shoot it either, would crank the wrist something fierce.

USAF_Vet
August 28, 2011, 11:09 AM
Since it's not designed to be fired from the shoulder, it can't be an SBS. If this thing were to be produced and sold in the US (which it isn't, apparently) it would be sold as an AOW. With the Tax Stamp required, and the number of states who don't allow NFA items, and the low demand for them to begin with, Taurus made the right call in scrapping the plans for US distribution.

moonpie
August 28, 2011, 12:08 PM
i should auto burglar concept because stevens once had a share of the market to.http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Manufacturers/Stevens/410%20Single-Shot%20Shotgun%20Pistol/410%20Single-Shot%20Shotgun%20Pistol.html

addedpulp
August 30, 2011, 10:13 AM
I'm surprised noone has ever fought the "AOW" restrictions. They're arbitrary, hardly have anything to do with "public safety," and the fact that simply paying your government $200 makes you somehow any less dangerous with one to the point of now making it legal basically just says "hey, if you want something cool, you have to pay us."

il_10
August 30, 2011, 12:58 PM
addedpulp: it's a tax. That's how taxes work. All of the NFA restrictions are arbitrary, with the POSSIBLE exception of machine guns, and even then the machine guns in use at the time were mostly stolen from government caches. The only reason SBS's and SBR's are in the thing is because pistols were originally going to be restricted, and they didn't want cut-down rifles and shotguns to be the next concealable go-to. It really doesn't make sense when you think about it, and when you look at the hughes amendment you start noticing blatant constitutional issues as well. The NFA was the result of a knee-jerk reaction to gangsters, and more specifically, gangster movies and public perception of gangsters. It's like banning switchblades. They're "scary," but still less effective and slower to get into action than a fixed blade knife. Sawed off shotguns are "scary," but still less effective and less concealable than a decent handgun until you get to living-room range.

The NFA is somewhere in the list of things to fight in gaining our full rights back, but it's a little ways on down the list. CCW in all states, preferably permitless CCW, takes first priority. Then Title-2 restrictions ("assault" weapon bans, etc.). Once legal guns are legally carried by legal owners in all states and federal districts, we can start attacking arbitrary unconstitutional laws like the hughes amendment. After that, we can start going after the NFA restrictions.

addedpulp
August 30, 2011, 02:29 PM
I understand taxes, thank you. At least most taxes feign purpose. Demonizing something to the point that the general public assumes something is "illegal," but it's simply a "pay your government to screw off" basis is where I find issue. THAT feels a bit more arbitrary and invasive than most.

Pfletch83
August 30, 2011, 04:15 PM
Does any company make exposed hammer side by sides in .410 these days?

Because that would be the ticket for a modern remake of the "Auto-Burglar" pistol (with all legal federal regulations met btw)

il_10
August 30, 2011, 05:13 PM
I didn't mean to be patronizing in the least; my apologies if you took it that way. I was bemoaning the fact that taxes and legislation have gotten to the point that things like this seem normal, and the satire apparently didn't come across in text.

Keep in mind that the NFA was originally implemented to stem the tide of prohibition era gang activity, and as far as the public at large was concerned, that was a good enough reason for the government to enact the legislation. Still, though a tax on a constitutionally backed right is awful, an altogether ban is worse, which is why I hold that working to abolish the Hughes amendment to FOPA is the more appropriate course of action for 2a folks in the short term.

But the FIRST thing that needs to be done, in my opinion, is to make sure that everyone in the union can legally own and carry even the "mundane" title II guns, and that's the fight we're fighting right now in D.C., Chicago, New York, New Jersey, and California. But battles like this need public support, and Sawed off shotguns, rifles, suppressors, and machine guns aren't going to gain that support easily in the minds of people who don't really get the 2a argument.

Fortunately, this is the internet age. That has done wonders for NFA possession, because the information that makes it possible to posses them legally is widely available, and the myth of "illegality" is being largely debunked. That information is a huge step in the right direction for us.

But I digress. I'm fairly sure I'll be hitting politics too soon and to a higher degree than is acceptable at THR, and I really am interested in a .410/.45lc SxS "sawed off," and any input others may have on that. That in mind, I'm happy to carry on this conversation in PM if you'd like, otherwise know that we're on basically the exact same page in terms of level of disgust with the NFA and similar legislation. I just see more prevalent threats to 2a that need to be addressed in the short term before the NFA becomes an opponent that we can successfully deal with.

il_10
September 6, 2011, 02:58 AM
This: http://www.rossiusa.com/product-details.cfm?id=218&category=3&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=

with some wood grips would be about as close as we could get for a production gun. I'd love to see a double, but this might have to suffice.

addedpulp
September 6, 2011, 10:46 AM
Like I said, there's this:

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/2091113608/9967453/pix1562338265.jpg_thumbnail1.jpg

But... doesn't look like a real double much.

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