Question on Bullets


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rori
August 25, 2011, 04:09 PM
I've been hunting with my own reloads for over 40 years and still don't understand why I would want a bullet that loses weight( think nosler partision) over a bullet that retains all its weight and drives right thru the heaviest muscle (think barnes tsx). I used the noslers for years and had good results with them but I also had good results with sierra and remington. When I had a hornady blow up on an elk I switched to Barnes tsx and have never looked back. Total or very near total weight retention and on a broadside on Roosevelt's elk complete pass thru with massive tissue damage. Never came close with a nosler. Not looking to bum rap any company just dont understand why a bullet that sheds a large amount of its weight can be desireable. FRJ

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Friendly, Don't Fire!
August 25, 2011, 04:14 PM
Are you referring to the Partition bullet?
That is supposed to retain the bottom half, plus most of the nose, I believe. If you are talking just a standard soft-point jacketed lead core bullet, you are correct, in my opinion, the Barnes TSX Solid Copper has them beat!

You can hunt with typically the next-size lower weight than you would typically hunt with when you use the Terminal-Shock X Bullet, as you stated, massive devastation and the bullet retains nearly 100% original weight, typically plowing through bone, muscle, etc, many times even all the way through an animal LENGTH-WISE!:eek:

Cop Bob
August 25, 2011, 04:20 PM
For your situation, and game, you are spot on.. I agree with you totally..

However I am one of those guys that is after absolute accuracy, But for Varmints, of several different types and species ... Meat is not the object, not hunting for hide... and each shot must be surgical in precision..

I love my A-max bullets for their excellent accuracy, under 1/2 MOA, and the explosive hydrostatic shock values of its terminal ballistics are just what the doctor ordered...

But If I were and Elk, Antelope, Mule Deer, Bear hunter, I too would be loading the Barnes, or the Nosler Partition...

CoRoMo
August 25, 2011, 04:22 PM
...dont understand why a bullet that sheds a large amount of its weight can be desireable.
Two words... prairie dogs.

rori
August 25, 2011, 04:55 PM
Sorry I misspelled Partition, but that is what I'm talking about. And the question is what is so good about a bullet that sheds a large amount of its weight? My TSX's shed little or none and thus all else being equal should and do penetrate farther than a partition thats shedding weight. I would never again use partitions. FRJ

gamestalker
August 25, 2011, 05:27 PM
I too have been hand loading for several decades and have as well noticed these performance variations. Most bullets have a prefered purpose, such is the case with a Nosler Ballistic Tip. Those have not performed well for me on big game, but do much better with target shooting. My experience with a 130 grain Speer PSP BT Hot Core was really good on elk in .270 win.. But other PSP bullets haven't done so well. You've no doubt discovered the Barnes is made for the task of big game hunting. Back when Barnes was first introduced I didn't care for them, mostly because there was little known about the reloading process with them. They are longer than a lead core bullet, and that concerned me regarding pressures at velocities obtainable with lead core bullets.

ants
August 25, 2011, 06:19 PM
"Why would I want a bullet that sheds weight."
No, not for elk you don't. But don't blame the bullet.

The terminal performance of any bullet is relative to its velocity, and the game it impacts.

A thinly jacketed bullet won't lose weight at modest velocity, when used on light game.
Heavier game and higher velocity requires a different bullet.
Although the Nosler Partition is a good bullet,
clearly you used it at higher velocity on a heavier target than it could handle.




My tiny and dumb little opinion, you can ignore it if you want:
If your choice of bullet is blowing up, you are either impacting at excessive velocity or shooting at game heavier than the bullet is designed. It wouldn't be the fault of bullet design, just the wrong selection for your velocity and game.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
August 25, 2011, 06:41 PM
I load Speer TNT's, 50g in my 22-250 and the speed is 3,990FPS. As soon as that bullet touches a blade of grass, the animal's fur, a drop of rain, etc, the centrifugal force of the projectile spinning at over 100,000 RPM's causes the bullet to violently self-destruct into tiny pieces of shrapnel which does wonders on woodchucks! There is literally a red vapor as the bullet vaporizes where I hit him. It typically takes about half of the opposite side off, with a huge opening!

I had shot a coyote about 20 years ago from about 30 feet, it happened to walk into the area on a corner of a field that I was hunting for 'chucks! I placed the crosshairs on his right side, just behind his right-front leg socket. The bullet blew a hole in the animal's side, where his heart was, and the hole was about as large as my fist (about 3.5" diameter and about 4" deep) -- the bullet and any shrapnel did NOT exit the other side!

Needless to say, it took his heart right out. He suddenly turned his head to the left and started to trot away from me, making a kind of semi-circle and limping badly, and was losing whatever blood he had fast! I am surprised he did not have an aneurism from the deadly blow to the heart!

He went perhaps 15 feet and dropped "deader than a doornail." If I use anything on coyotes again, it may just be a Remington 55g Soft Point Spire for a bit more penetration. However, my rifle is so accurate I can take off a woodchuck's head at 200 yards (Harris Bipod, prone, with sling).

kingmt
August 25, 2011, 06:53 PM
Ants
That can't really be add to or taken away from. Just well said.

I don't want a bullet to just punch through & spend all of its energy into the ground. I like my deer DRT(Dead Right Then). No idea about how you need load for elk tho.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
August 25, 2011, 07:04 PM
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/06/video-reveals-hunting-bullet-performance-in-super-slow-motion/

You can also check out the TSX Barnes at the Barnes site, on this page of slo-mo videos going into gelatin:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/high-speed-video/

41 Mag
August 25, 2011, 07:10 PM
For the most part bullets that shed weight have been dropping game for about as long as the powder has been around to drive them.

Like Ants mentioned, you can drive any bullet fast enough, and into something solid enough, that even your precious Barnes will shed the petals and drop weight.

Personally I gave the Barnes a good going over years ago, and moved on finding they offered me nothing any more spectacular than what the standard C&C bullets costing half their price offered.

While I have not shot a bull elk, I have shot a cow, and did so with standard C&C 180gr factory load, and total distance from bullet impacting shoulder, to shoulder impacting ground, was about 30'. Might have just been a fluke but the insides looked like strawberry jello to me.

I have shot hundreds of deer and hogs with all types of bullets, and not found that the higher dollar bullets work any better overall. Put the shot where it is supposed to be, and nothing but jello from either of them. Now I will freely admit that there is a place for them and that is usually with a high octane round pushing them out at over 3200fps from the get go. I used the 115gr Partition almost exclusively in my 25-06 as it worked as good at 10yds as it did at 400, whether it shed the frontal portion or not. It didn't blow a huge bloody mess into the side of a deer that I had to trim and toss. I also admit that the 115gr Barnes X worked equally as well, but at the time they also cost more and were harder to find.

In another example, I used the .308-130gr TSX for a reduced load for my grandson. It served the suited purpose perfectly. It had enough weight to penetrate, and being built the way it is, it held together just fine.

Now if one shoots 50 rounds a year some of the high dollar fancy bullets might be worth it to them for a bit of added insurance, but spending the same money on twice the amount of cheaper bullets, and using half of them for practice, will go much further in the field. I'm not knocking the premium bullets as they do have and serve a purpose, but they aren't the end all king of anything that shoots. As for making up for a bad shot, I admit they penetrate, but if you have to rely on that much penetration for medium or big game, you might need to reconsider the shot to begin with, unless your hunting stuff that might hunt you back.

Skyshot
August 25, 2011, 08:27 PM
I'll try all the bullets I can in a particular loading. If the Barnes give the best accuracy then I'll shoot them. But sometimes other bullets even cheap one's out shoot the Barnes, so I'll use them, I just want the best accuracy I can achieve in my loadings. I can't complain about any of the bonded core bullets as compared to the Barnes TSX's. If the shot placement is correct, the animal falls over. I don't really care about weight retention, they all seem to do the job. Some critters will run and some don't after a good vital hit and don't blame the bullet if that happens and I think It happens with all bullets.

1stmarine
August 25, 2011, 11:24 PM
The softness of the bullet should be chosen depending on target soft/hard animal and range speed of impact.
It is hard to go wrong with barnes TSX never failed me once.
In long distance situation with a soft target you might want something softer that expands faster.
Don't discount bergers hunting VLDs with the advantage of match grade BCs.
There are some good others. Right now I am testing the e-tips.

788Ham
August 25, 2011, 11:43 PM
Hornady 165 gr. Spire Points will give you that jelloe'd look inside too. Have shot a few elk with them, always has given them the staggers before finally piling up also, then DRT !

Friendly, Don't Fire!
August 26, 2011, 11:09 AM
I took a black bear with Hornady .270 Win 130g Spire handloads. The bear was about forty feet away and I shot him sideways into the base of his head.

The bullet broke his neck and he fell like a ton of bricks. By the looks of him, he certainly didn't feel much.

I had the bear butchered, so the butcher most likely found the projectile as I don't recall there being an exit-wound.

brickeyee
August 26, 2011, 03:18 PM
…don't understand why I would want a bullet that loses weight( think nosler partision) over a bullet that retains all its weight and drives right thru the heaviest muscle (think barnes tsx).

I never considered a Nosler Partition as "designed to" lose weight.

It is designed so that if it strikes at very high velocity it retains the weight in the rear instead of simply coming completely apart.

If you are close enough that the front disintegrates, you probably have enough weight left in the back.

Solid copper bullets are more expensive and may not be required for lighter game.
They give up some weight using copper instead of lead from the lower density, but copper is also significantly harder than lead (and pure lead is normally what is in jacketed bullets).

The bullet can be made longer to gain back the weight, but that means twist rate may need to increase.

One reason for using very lightly built bullets on varmints is that they are normally not very large and you want to avoid a more strongly built bullet penetrating and continuing across the range.

rori
August 26, 2011, 03:33 PM
The reason I first started using the Barnes TSX was because I had one Hornady 180 gr interlock blow up on the side of an elk. I had killed several with the same batch of bullets with no problem. One is too many when we are talking about all the time and money that is spent to get that shot on an elk. I may not have had any problem with them again but I won't take the chance. Frank

rori
August 26, 2011, 03:46 PM
Skyshot, if all your looking for in a bullet is accuracy, you are not looking at the whole picture. If I can keep them into 2" at 100yrds I've got a bullet that is way good enough to hunt big game. What's more important is the terminal balistics of that bullet and there are many very accurate bullets that will not perform well on tissue actually Sierra makes a whole line of them that are very accurate but don't work well on tissue and are not designed to.
The Partition bullet is designed to shed a large amount of the frontal weight and I have several that were recovered from deer that did just that. For me that is not desireable and I wont use them. Especially since they call them premium bullets and charge a lot for them. Far as I'm concerned they are a joke. Frank

AK_Maine_iac
August 26, 2011, 05:34 PM
I have picked up some Barns 180 gr and Barns Banded Solid 165 gr to load in my 30.06.

Also a box of Barns 225 gr tsx fb for my 35Whelen.

What would you recommend for powder, I have Varget, Reloader15, and IMR4064 on hand at this time.
Also thinking about the 180's for my AR10 (308)

1stmarine
August 26, 2011, 08:18 PM
Black bear, hogs and large deer have been taken with .223 barnes TSX in 70gr. No matter what caliber they are lethal with proper neck/vitals placement.
I am not saying do this but potentially any good bullet with the good placement is totally lethal.
I wouldn't try unless within the 200 yards or so.

Skyshot
August 26, 2011, 08:44 PM
Skyshot, if all your looking for in a bullet is accuracy, you are not looking at the whole picture. If I can keep them into 2" at 100yrds I've got a bullet that is way good enough to hunt big game. What's more important is the terminal balistics of that bullet and there are many very accurate bullets that will not perform well on tissue actually Sierra makes a whole line of them that are very accurate but don't work well on tissue and are not designed to.
The Partition bullet is designed to shed a large amount of the frontal weight and I have several that were recovered from deer that did just that. For me that is not desireable and I wont use them. Especially since they call them premium bullets and charge a lot for them. Far as I'm concerned they are a joke. Frank
I'll have to disagree, If can obtain the best accuracy with a given bullet and if it's of good structure then thats what I go with. I'm not big fan of the partition but if it flies the best I'll use it. So far the Accubond has out performed the Partition hands down. I have several rifles from .223 to .375 caliber. I have quite a good stock of bullets from all the manufactures. I do like the TSX in my .223 and .243 but in the .243 I like the Sierra GMK which you claim is bad on tissue. I have taken at least 50 whitetails and several blackbears with the Sierra GMK. All where 1 shot kills with the exception of a bear that took a follow-up shot. All the deer hits passed through with nice quarter size exit holes. This works for me.

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