[Cal-gun Fan]

Hey guys, mini rant I guess.

I've been saving up for a specific Russian scope for my Arsenal AK rifle for a while now, and one finally popped up a bit ago up a decent price on Ebay. In the description, the seller has listed something like "No shipping to California because I do not support communist Anti-Gun states." This kinda ticked me off to be honest. I emailed the seller and he never responded. It isn't my fault that California has bad gun laws, so why would selling to me be "supporting" an anti-gun state?

I've seen other sites/auctions with similar lines. What do you guys think? Am I being a whiner or does this seem wrong to you guys too?

[KingMedicine]

Ya know, some people are just so anti cal policy that they wont ship even non guns there. Its there option to ship or not ship whereever they want... I wouldent get too annoyed by it. Its pretty common around here.

[gennro]

Me personally I wouldn't support that state at all. Comes to if I would sell items to a person in that state meaning that person would stay in that state supporting its function with taxes. I haven't really seen this yet, but not living in CA I don't look for it.

[Vaarok]

I always thought it was punishing the victims. I try to support my shooty friends in CA however I can.

[roadchoad]

By selling something to that state, you take money out of it... :uhoh:

[Josh45]

IMHO,

I think he should sell to PRO 2A People. Not by their state. He's a shooter, Your a shooter. Both of you are Pro-2A.....

[1911fan]

As seller, I have the option of selling to whom I please. If I choose not to sell to those who live in the State of Franklin and you happen to live in Franklin, there ain't a single thing you can do about it except to try and change my mind--which is probably pretty much already made up.

The next thing you can do is quit whining:banghead: and find someone who WILL sell to Franklinites.

Or move.:what:

ed

[medalguy]

I'd opt to move :D.

[AlexanderA]

Here's the great irony: in the original post, it was stated that the item was found on ebay. How can the seller patronize a notoriously anti-gun site like ebay, and then refuse to sell to California? After all, individual gun owners in California are not responsible for their state's laws, but the seller is very much responsible for supporting the policies of ebay, with his business.

Historically, politically-motivated boycotts never work. Who now remembers the boycotts of California grapes and lettuce, on behalf of the farm workers? Gigantic flops.

[Bubbles]

1) I thought eBay had its corporate HQ in CA?

2) From my company policies:
California
EFI, LLC has registered with the DoJ CFLC program and we will sell any product that we legally can to the public. We will not, under any circumstances, sell any of our products to law-enforcement or state agencies until the California legislature repeals the gun control laws that have been enacted, as these entities have lobbied in favor of statewide gun bans.

[BeerSleeper]

This clown's got it backwards.

I live in a state adjacent to the Peoples Republik of Illinois. I'm not happy about it. When I have to drive across it, I get gas and food before crossing the border of the adjacent state (gotta lock up that gun in the trunk anyway), and don't stop until I'm across. Maybe it's my own little silly thing that only I care about, but I'm not unfairly picking on a citizen of that state, I'm just abstaining from spending money there. If given the opportunity, I would sell any IL resident anything they can legally have (more than happy to take their money).

[MikeNice]

I always thought it was punishing the victims. I try to support my shooty friends in CA however I can.

+1

That even includes occasionally addressing articles in CA newspapers and commenting on blogs from CA. I know it doesn't do much but I figure every little bit helps.

[sansone]

I always thought it was punishing the victims. I try to support my shooty friends in CA however I can.
I agree we should support our own kind, sure they should move, but we gotta stick together

[Kliegl]

Heh, I drive my old car into Illinois on occasion. I work on how to comply with Illinois laws yet be able to get a gun into action soon. An unloaded pistol with slide racked back in a plastic gun case on the floor of the passenger footwell and a loaded mag on the seat seem to be the best move. The gun is "unloaded, in a suitable container" but can still rock and roll in 3 seconds.

[VT Deer Hunter]

So many places wont ship gun things or guns and such to Cali. it is not fair for them.

[Danb1215]

I don't think it is right not to ship to California out of a misplaced desire not to support the state. Selling someone who lives in that prison-state a gun isn't exactly helping the state.

I do think it is right not to ship to California for fear of running afoul of some stupid law there and then finding out that you're next to be shipped there.

[TennJed]

Here's the great irony: in the original post, it was stated that the item was found on ebay. How can the seller patronize a notoriously anti-gun site like ebay, and then refuse to sell to California? After all, individual gun owners in California are not responsible for their state's laws, but the seller is very much responsible for supporting the policies of ebay, with his business.

Historically, politically-motivated boycotts never work. Who now remembers the boycotts of California grapes and lettuce, on behalf of the farm workers? Gigantic flops.

I admit I do not know much about Ebay and the gun rules but I hear a lot about them being anti gun. I do know they sell gun holster, safes, grips, sights and about any other assesory you can think of.

I would like to know in detail what they have done toearn this reputation. I am not doubting you at all. I honestly want to know because I will consider not shopping from them if I know all the details I am just uninformed.

Thanks

[steelerdude99]

| Danb1215
| I do think it is right not to ship to California for fear of running afoul of
| some stupid law there and then finding out that you're next to be shipped
| there.

When I sell on Gunbroker (even BB guns), violating a recipient’s state law is my concern. Did anyone know BB guns sent to NJ residents must be sent via an FFL?

Chuck

[dallascj]

I agree with the concern of breaking a state law. He might sell to you and get a bill from the state for sales tax or find out he broke some stupid anti-gun law. **********ns need to take control or move, IMO.

[Mike1234567]

That seller is a small-minded, closed-minded jerk. I don't deal with jerks. My gut feeling is he would have cheated you anyway. Keep looking... elsewhere.

[ants]

Let's take it back 235 years. Another oppressive government holding down its people.

What if France and the rest of Europe refused to support the American colonists because of Britain's oppressive rule? "We hate the totalitarian British monarchy, so we refuse to send aid, including arms and ammunition, to the Colonies in their struggle against that totalitarian monarch."

Now, that would have done us no good. Nope.


I think this example is very instructive. It reminds us of the difference between an oppressive government and the people so oppressed. Hurting the latter does nothing to fight against the former. Bubbles has a good idea back in Post #10. Go right to the heart of the problem. Don't hurt the victims worse, thinking that you're hurting their oppressor.

[SaxonPig]

This is a continuing argument on the GunBroker Forum. Some want to blame CA gun owners for the bad laws and I keep trying to explain to these dolts that the good people in CA are simply outnumbered by the liberals when the elections come around.

My signature line on that forum sums it up. "Blaming CA gun owners for the bad laws there is like kicking your dog because you don't like the leash law."

I think CA residents should go ahead and bid on items with this statement in the text. Make these boneheaded sellers keep explaining to the auction site owner why they keep refusing to complete transactions.

[svaz]

Could be the seller doesn't want to deal with the hassle of navigating CA's seemingly incomprehensible guns laws so he simply refuses to deal w/ CA at all.

Could be he just hates CA or CA's guns laws so much he's willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Either way, getting mad at him isn't going to get you your merchandise; find a new seller.

[snubbies]

Many responses call for the poster to move from california. How impractical is that as a solution. Keep looking. If I run into one I will let you know.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

You say its not your fault.

Have you worked to organize a valid opposition to your rulers?---Have you made plans to move?

Personally, I'd move and let the Communists and their enabling freeloaders collaspe on themselves---the more productive citizens that move away, the less of other peoples money they have to spend---the faster the collaspe comes and the sooner things can reset to their proper order.

[Apocalypse-Now]

that sucks. it is the seller's decision though. a lot of them are probably worried about violating some bizarre ************ anti gun law. i probably would be.

[snubbies]

What scope are you looking for. I am sure people here will help you find it outside of California

[mr_dove]

I don't support california either. We will be driving down to disney world rather than going to the much closer Disney Land. I just can't stomach giving any of my money to that state.

[CraigC]

If it's your property, you may ship it wherever you choose. Just like a seller can ask any price he wishes for his property. Nuff said. Doesn't do you any good to get bent outta shape because you can't do anything about it.

[PreMod70]

You should file a civil suit against this guy, before long he and others will get the idea that they do as they please with their property(with sarcasm). Face it fellow you live in world that the rest of us know will be the model for the rest of our country and there are some of us that don't like the way things are going in California so move or change the laws if you wish to be treated the same.

[RightCoastBiased]

that's like not selling condoms to a rape victim.

[orionengnr]

Having lived in CT (18 years), CA (20 years) and IL (a mere 3 years), yes, I am going to blame the victims.

The people of your states are actively and/or passively supporting statism.

If you don't like that, work from within to change it.

that's like not selling condoms to a rape victim.
If you can state one instance of a rape victim offering a condom to a rapist with a positive result, I will re-consider your argument.

Until then, I will dismiss it as idiotic rhetoric.

Subscribing, and holding my breath.

Not.

[SaxonPig]

It's very easy to say "move."

YOU try it. It means leaving your job, your friends, your extended family, the familiar surroundings, and leaping into the unknown. It's very, very difficult to pack up and move.

I know because i did it in 1992. I grew up in California. It was home. But the politics leaned further and further to the left and with the myriad of anti-gun laws coming along in the late 1980s I knew I had to get out or go crazy. I could do it. I didn't have children who would be uprooted from friends and school. But it was STILL a tremendously hard thing to do.

I quit my job of 14 years, sold my house, and moved. I spent the next 10 years unemployed or underemployed. I missed my friends. I missed my family. After 19 years it's still tough.

I felt I had to do it, and I chose to do it. Most folks cannot due to jobs, family, etc. Some compassion would be nice rather than blaming them for bad laws that they fight as much as they can but are simply overwhelmed at the polls.

You know, I could point out that national gun laws are bad. What's wrong with all of you living in the US? Why don't YOU rise up and overthrow that anti-gun government? Why are YOU allowing these laws to be passed, and remain in force? maybe I won't do business with all of YOU until YOU fix the federal laws!!!

Makes about as much sense...

[Mike1234567]

I agree, it's easy to "say". Most of us are essentially stuck in one area for one or many reasons. I'm stuck in Texas until I can afford to retire. It would be really stoopid of me to walk away from my pension after so many years in. TG Texas ain't no kommie state but I'd still be stuck here even if it became one.

[bergmen]

Saxonpig has it correct.

I was born in California in 1949. Lived here ever since except for a four year excursion to Japan in the late 50's, early 60's.

To say that just because we live here we support the idiotic laws that are passed against our will is prejudicial beyond description. The residents of this state are not being represented by the elected, the special interests are. There is nothing most of us can do about it no matter how hard we try.

Take a look at this county voting map from 2004:

http://inlinethumb41.webshots.com/47976/2251489940053667879S600x600Q85.jpg

The media (local, national and international) completely ignore the number of red counties. Most people are astonished to learn that there are conservatives actually living here.

Believe me, we are doing our damndest to change things but those in power do not listen to us since the power is generally centralized in the San Francisco and Los Angeles areas.

If a business chooses not to sell me anything strictly because I live in California that is a direct assault on me, not my state of residence. It would behoove that business to recognize that we are on your side and doing business with us (and actually going out of your way to help us with any firearms related purchases) goes a long, long way towards empowering us to try to change things (NOT in an armed manner, mind you). We need your support.

You turn your backs on us, you are supporting an anti-gun stance just like the state government is.

And as for me, you will be treated just the same as I treat the state government, and that is with disdain and complete lack of trust and respect. In my mind, you are finished as a source of anything - forever. You choose not to do business with me because of my state of residence you are banned from consideration by me in the future - no reconsideration on my part, you're no better than the Governers office.

Kel-Tec (as I understand it) chooses not to sell any firearms in California as a protest to the stupid and restrictive gun laws here. They can do what they want but who are they hurting? The state government? The state-gov couldn't care less and would chalk this up as a victory. No, they are hurting law abiding gun owners by their idiotic political stance. Kel-Tec stands to gain far more if they stand behind us and help us to take advantage of their fine products. They could use our support and we could use theres. Guess where Kel-Tec resides on my preferred supplier list.

And speaking of moving, I did. To a county that is ignored by state politicians because we don't toe the political line. We have a Sheriff's office here that recognizes RKBA and issues CCW permits because it is our right. My wife and I have held ours for ten + years.

So go ahead and not sell to me. You are only burning yourselves at the stake if I have anything to say about it.

Dan

[Sunray]

"...patronize a notoriously anti-gun site like ebay..." Yep. Buying or selling there gives money to the like of the Brady Bunch. Mind you, the seller may be too, um, dim to know that.

[EddieNFL]

Kel-Tec (as I understand it) chooses not to sell any firearms in California as a protest to the stupid and restrictive gun laws here. They can do what they want but who are they hurting? The state government? The state-gov couldn't care less and would chalk this up as a victory. No, they are hurting law abiding gun owners by their idiotic political stance. Kel-Tec stands to gain far more if they stand behind us and help us to take advantage of their fine products. They could use our support and we could use theres. Guess where Kel-Tec resides on my preferred supplier list.

So go ahead and not sell to me. You are only burning yourselves at the stake if I have anything to say about it.

Some folks put principal ahead of money.

Go ahead and spout all the little sound bites about eating principal, but I can think of a number of men who could have taken the easy way out, but chose to do what they felt was right. Had it not been for those men, and many others, we probably would not be discussing RKBA...there wouldn't be any right.

[KodiakBeer]

The wording he uses is condescending, but I have to agree with the sentiment. I wouldn't sell firearm accessories to California (or a half dozen other states) either, just because I don't want to get caught up in the web of legal issues it presents. Something as innocuous as a magazine or a folding stock or even a scope could violate some California law. Do they charge me with some arcane postal regulation about transferring prohibited items? Am I expected to refund the money to the buyer if it's confiscated? Who needs that kind of headache?

[Mike1234567]

The wording he uses is condescending, but I have to agree with the sentiment. I wouldn't sell firearm accessories to California (or a half dozen other states) either, just because I don't want to get caught up in the web of legal issues it presents. Something as innocuous as a magazine or a folding stock or even a scope could violate some California law. Do they charge me with some arcane postal regulation about transferring prohibited items? Am I expected to refund the money to the buyer if it's confiscated? Who needs that kind of headache?
^^^ This is the appropriate reasoning. I wouldn't bother with the headaches either but it would have nothing to do with those unfortunate folks who live in those states.

[Cal-gun Fan]

Having lived in CT (18 years), CA (20 years) and IL (a mere 3 years), yes, I am going to blame the victims.

The people of your states are actively and/or passively supporting statism.

If you don't like that, work from within to change it.


If you can state one instance of a rape victim offering a condom to a rapist with a positive result, I will re-consider your argument.

Until then, I will dismiss it as idiotic rhetoric.

Subscribing, and holding my breath.

Not.

I detest this logic. I was born in California. In the future I hope to leave, but as of now I am in High School and thus leaving is impossible. Our laws are not our fault and we DO try to change them. The problem is, California is not ready for change. We accept this and throw the bullet buttons and magazine locks on our guns to make them legal etc.

Please elaborate on why exactly you think Californians should be discriminated against for buying their groceries or anything else in the state.

@Mike1234567
How would a scope be violating California law? There are no laws restricting them.


@Bergmen
I completely agree with this. Well said!

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

You should file a civil suit against this guy, before long he and others will get the idea that they do as they please with their property(with sarcasm). Face it fellow you live in world that the rest of us know will be the model for the rest of our country and there are some of us that don't like the way things are going in California so move or change the laws if you wish to be treated the same.

On a case of what? Living in California is not a protected class which would make such a lawsuit, frivolous.

[Mike1234567]

@ Cal-gun Fan... I was agreeing with KodiakBeer who stated he wouldn't sell to individuals in California NOT because of them but because of the PITA and possible legal repercussions the state of CA makes it to do so.

[Cal-gun Fan]

Ahh ok, gotcha.

[stanger04]

I sell on Ebay and rarely will I sell to someone from Cali. It isn't because of you but for my safety. Cali has so many laws that it is best to leave well enough alone.

[Danb1215]

Yeah the guy definitely worded that stupidly, but if I were selling a gun/certain accessories online I would also not ship to California.
Absolutely nothing to do with making a statement or with some misplaced principle, it's simple self preservation. I'm not going to learn California's gun laws for a few potential sales, and I'd like to avoid being extradited there.

[Cal-gun Fan]

A scope is an innocuous item and doesn't violate any laws. Hi-Cap magazines and possible folding or retractable stocks I can understand not wanting to ship, but I just don't see why somebody would not ship a scope.

[Iramo94]

"We hate the totalitarian British monarchy, so we refuse to send aid, including arms and ammunition, to the Colonies in their struggle against that totalitarian monarch."
+1 for learning from history. That is exactly what is happening in Kommiefornia. And it's a crying shame.

[stanger04]

To you it may sound like a little thing but imagine you live in Alabama and can buy just about anything you want. For all we know there is an appendix c paragraph 43 indention 2001 that says no this or that that may be imported or exported.

[Danb1215]

Even being that California doesn't have such a law, I absolutely guarantee you that there are jurisdictions somewhere that regulate rifle scopes. Shipping a scope wouldn't worry me personally, I would sell one to someone in California. That said, I can understand why some would be hesitant.


It's sad but if you go under the assumption that if a given act is illegal anywhere it is probably illegal in California, you will be right way more often than not.

[stanger04]

I am all for helping uphold our rights but I will not go to prison for Johnny, sorry. Ignorance is no excuse to the law and violating laws makes the fight harder.

[bergmen]

Some folks put principal ahead of money.

Go ahead and spout all the little sound bites about eating principal, but I can think of a number of men who could have taken the easy way out, but chose to do what they felt was right. Had it not been for those men, and many others, we probably would not be discussing RKBA...there wouldn't be any right.

They can put principal ahead of money all they want to. What they are doing is looking me in the face and giving me the finger. I am not the enemy or the source of their problem so they can have the finger right back.

The state of California wins if those that choose not to do business here because of the gun laws decide to forget us. That is their goal and the Kel-Tec types are sucking right up to it. California government just checks one in the plus column for every firearms related business that decides not to cater to customers here.

The laws can be understood and dealt with by those that care. Dozens of suppliers do from ammo to magazines to every other possible accessory that us gun owners need. There is a short list of banned items, an eighth grader could decipher it easily.

I just received a 58 pound package of M1A ammo from out of state. Eezee peezee, no problem. Also a large box full of 10 round M1A magazines - piece-o-cake. These from businesses who honor our patronage. A CMP Garand is on it's way soon to be on my doorstep, CMP has no problem doing business with us. Neither does Cabelas, Midway, Berry's Bullets, Hodgden powders, etc, etc. the list goes on and on.

These are my opinions only but I can tell you for certain I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Dan

[MikeNice]

The state of California wins if those that choose not to do business here because of the gun laws decide to forget us.

+10

[cacoltguy]

It's the sellers property and he is free to sell (or not sell) to whomever he chooses. I don't get the philosophy however. Why would you not sell items to people of your own kind living here and how is doing so a sign of support for the anti-gun politicians of CA? I say to defeat the system you need to flood the state with as many legally owned guns and legal gun owners as possible. When you refuse to sell firearms or firearm accessories to CA, you are only doing what Brown, Pelosi and the rest of the regime want you to do. Furthermore, when I buy online from an out of state buyer I don't give these fools my money in the form of sales tax which they will promptly donate to illegal immigrants or other freeloaders.

As far as telling those of us that live here to move, get real. I don't like the politics of this state but I relocated here because that is what my job dictated. With 10% unemployment and only the fast food industry hiring, I'm not about to leave a secure well paying job and start collecting unemployment to make a political statement about gun rights. I will continue to utilize my vote to speak for my feelings and encourage others to do the same.

[Murphy4570]

A CMP Garand is on it's way soon to be on my doorstep, CMP has no problem doing business with us.

They're a little special. There's a reason why the CMP can ship via mail a rifle with ammo straight to your doorstep, where all other firearms sellers must ship to an FFL to transfer it to you.

[Norrick]

Yes lets just relocate our families jobs and homes so that we don't have to deal with out of state salesman who make it a point to punish the pro gunners. Makes GREAT sense.

Anyone who thinks california is '************' doesn't deserve our cash to begin with. I'll happily give it to the entrepeneurs who realize it is an untapped market.

Ignore the ads that preach, if they make no mention then just ask politely. Some just dont sell to here because of the hassle, not any personal ideology. Probably not a wise move to rant on here either since there is very little sympathy towards Californians. Have you been to calguns website?

[ErikO]

Oh by the way, the '************' gun laws were started when some non-whites came to the state offices with their rifles and shotguns and scared Gov. Reagan into starting the draconian laws there.

Just saying.

[USAF_Vet]

Not selling to California only helps enforce their anti-gun angenda. Less guns in the state is a win to them. Thet Kel-Tec refuses to do business in california is a world class mistake. If I were them, I'd stick it to the man and sell guns for less in California than I do elsewhere. Increase supply and demand, lower prices of guns and related items, and really tick off Big Brother.

Move? Easy to sit there and say that. In reality, not so easy. If no one has noticed, unemployment is high, home sales are low and the economy is grinding to a stand still. Yeah, I can see where one can quit a job, sell a house, uproot their family and start over completely all over a bunch of restrictive gun laws. Sure.

I was stationed in California for three years. I hated everything about it, but what bothered me the least out of all the nonsense were the gun laws.

The leftist regime is so entrenched in that state, the coast is going to have to break off and drift into the Pacific, get flooded by a massive tsunami, or get shoved under Nevada before real, positive, pro 2A changes can be made. I feel sorry for the pro 2A citizens of ************. Keep on keepin' on.

[Mike1234567]

They can put principal ahead of money all they want to. What they are doing is looking me in the face and giving me the finger. I am not the enemy or the source of their problem so they can have the finger right back.

The state of California wins if those that choose not to do business here because of the gun laws decide to forget us. That is their goal and the Kel-Tec types are sucking right up to it. California government just checks one in the plus column for every firearms related business that decides not to cater to customers here.

The laws can be understood and dealt with by those that care. Dozens of suppliers do from ammo to magazines to every other possible accessory that us gun owners need. There is a short list of banned items, an eighth grader could decipher it easily.

I just received a 58 pound package of M1A ammo from out of state. Eezee peezee, no problem. Also a large box full of 10 round M1A magazines - piece-o-cake. These from businesses who honor our patronage. A CMP Garand is on it's way soon to be on my doorstep, CMP has no problem doing business with us. Neither does Cabelas, Midway, Berry's Bullets, Hodgden powders, etc, etc. the list goes on and on.

These are my opinions only but I can tell you for certain I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Dan

I feel for you, Dan. But, looking at your arguement from the flip-side, maybe Californians will become so incredibly ticked off that they'll begin to fight hard for their 2A rights. Sometimes it's a matter of that... one... last... unfriendly... shove... to start a real brawl.;):)

[Cal-gun Fan]

We DO fight hard, mike! But honestly, the state has bigger problems than gun rights right now.

[bergmen]

I feel for you, Dan. But, looking at your arguement from the flip-side, maybe Californians will become so incredibly ticked off that they'll begin to fight hard for their 2A rights. Sometimes it's a matter of that... one... last... unfriendly... shove... to start a real brawl.;):)

Not supporting our 2A rights weakens us. This is NOT to say that we need to be armed to resist, that is not my point at all.

I do have to say that I have understanding for the smaller operations and individual sellers who consider it way too much of a hassle to sell anything firearms related to Californians. But we can help. Many times the "barriers" are not really preventative as much as a few layers of red tape. Most of us don't want to bend or break the law to make a point and often we can be worked with. When I look at GunBrokers.com I see many, many blanket statements indicating "no sales to California" for things like .22 rifles. I would encourage those who make this statement to reconsider. I know it is easier just to scratch us off your list but as I indicated earlier, we are on your side.

I have been a shooter and hunter here for more than 50 years. Lifetime member of the California Rifle and Pistol Association. BTW, CRPA is fighting the gun laws in Cal tooth and nail. They are bringing in the big guns (NRA/ILA) to file serious lawsuits in the wake of Heller - and they are winning in several key areas. The tide is beginning to turn and the various city, county and state administrations know this and even though some are putting up a fight (gotta keep those blue constituents) they are not gaining ground, they are losing it.

I have taken many people (some who have never actually SEEN a firearm up close) to the range to shoot after about a 2 hour safety course at my house. All have enjoyed it, the majority have visited gun shops and many are new owners (and members of the local gun club). I continue to do this as the opportunities present themselves. The only people I trained and shot with who couldn't consider buying handguns were my good friends from Sweden. I couldn't do anything about that but that didn't keep the lot of them from drooling all over the counter glass at every gun shop between our little farm and SFO.

Oh, and one other thing. California may be a stinking cesspool politically but it still is one of the most fantastic places on earth to live for all of the reasons that most already know about. This is MY state and this where I will breath my last breath.

Dan

[Mike1234567]

We need a sticky with state laws/regs and current links (updated regularly) for owning, buying, and selling firearms. No, I can't do it because I'm no longer able to.

[Tallinar]

Could be the seller doesn't want to deal with the hassle of navigating CA's seemingly incomprehensible guns laws so he simply refuses to deal w/ CA at all.

Call me heartless or narrow-minded, but this is my stance when I sell guns online.

I feel bad for the gun owners in California - really, I do. I would not think for a moment to fault the individuals who had nothing to do with the law. And as others have pointed out, those of us who say "Just move to another state" really don't realize how huge of a deal that is. But frankly, I don't believe that I - an Iowa resident - should have to feel an obligation to become a scholar on California's state laws so that I can ship a gun to you without fear of repurcussion or a botched transaction. Likewise, I don't believe you should have to feel the same way if you want to ship something to my state.

I'm confused by CA gun laws - what little I know about them. I'm sure with a bit of deliberate research I could figure it out. But honestly I get so resentful of the fact that I need to figure it out that I don't care to. I'm a private citizen and a family man. When I sell guns, it's typically because I need cash at the time to make ends meet. I'm going to sell my gun where I can have the confidence of a smooth transaction without fear of unnecessary hassle. Good, bad, or indifferent, that's just kinda the way it is.

Hopefully things turn around soon for my brothers in California. :(

[bergmen]

Call me heartless or narrow-minded, but this is my stance when I sell guns online.

I feel bad for the gun owners in California - really, I do. I would not think for a moment to fault the individuals who had nothing to do with the law. And as others have pointed out, those of us who say "Just move to another state" really don't realize how huge of a deal that is. But frankly, I don't believe that I - an Iowa resident - should have to feel an obligation to become a scholar on California's state laws so that I can ship a gun to you without fear of repurcussion or a botched transaction. Likewise, I don't believe you should have to feel the same way if you want to ship something to my state.

I'm confused by CA gun laws - what little I know about them. I'm sure with a bit of deliberate research I could figure it out. But honestly I get so resentful of the fact that I need to figure it out that I don't care to. I'm a private citizen and a family man. When I sell guns, it's typically because I need cash at the time to make ends meet. I'm going to sell my gun where I can have the confidence of a smooth transaction without fear of unnecessary hassle. Good, bad, or indifferent, that's just kinda the way it is.

Hopefully things turn around soon for my brothers in California. :(

No, I understand completely and have no quarrel with your position. Handgun laws here are a mess, even LEO's and county DA's don't understand them.

Long arms are a different story. Outside of the evil assault weapons charade, it is just a matter of transfer to an FFL.

We have our dukes up and we're swinging. The bar stools are going to get thrown through the front window pretty soon and it will develop into a knock-down drag-out brawl. They're backing up more than we are and I'm grabbing for my can of spinach.

Dan

[Tallinar]

They're backing up more than we are and I'm grabbing for my can of spinach.

Glad to hear it. I admire your resolve. Let me know if you need me to ship you some extra spinach! Hopefully I can ship it legally. :D

[KodiakBeer]

Let me know if you need me to ship you some extra spinach! Hopefully I can ship it legally.

Be careful! At each crossing point into California there is an agricultural product inspection station that must be passed. There is a maze of regulations detailing which fruits, vegetables and plants may enter the state from which areas and what inspection hoops they must have already jumped through before entering California. Ridiculous, but true!

It is this regulatory maze on every product that makes people hesitant to do business in California. It's not just guns...

[bergmen]

Glad to hear it. I admire your resolve. Let me know if you need me to ship you some extra spinach! Hopefully I can ship it legally. :D

Canned food is okay as long as it doesn't have a pistol grip welded onto it.

Dan

[Mike1234567]

Canned food is okay as long as it doesn't have a pistol grip welded onto it.

Dan
No, no, no... it's the high capacity cans that are the problem. Ten ounces or LESS!!

[evan price]

IMHO every time California makes some stupid law the companies that are affected should turn their backs on that state like Ronnie Barrett did. Want fitted sheets required in hotels? Presto, no hotels working in San Fran. Want to deny the right to own a gun without microstamping? Poof, nobody sells guns or ammo including to LEOs. Want to require extra-special-clean cars? Poof, no cars in Cali including LEOs and EMS.

Let them secede and see how much better the otehr 49 states are.

[CoRoMo]

Our laws are not our fault...
I can't agree. Imagine reading those six words on a bumper sticker. I certainly don't fault you with the laws that have been enacted there. But using the collective terms 'we' and 'us', I have to say that only we are at fault for the infringements that we have allowed. There are a number of anti-gun laws here in Colorado. As much as I would want to say that they are due to the influx of ex-Californians who are moving here to escape that state, only to continue voting the way they always did and turn this state into that one, I would also say that those of us who were here first have allowed these laws to pass. We are all at fault here; some certainly bear more of the blame than others. I probably have not done enough to prevent current laws here, and for that, I'm at fault.
...the state has bigger problems than gun rights right now.
I think this is how California got to where it is today. There have always been "more important" issues to deal with at every moment throughout the last couple generations. So those issues were dealt with and RKBA suffered greatly. Until raw liberty is placed at the top of the 'to do' list, shouldn't we expect more of the same? I know for many Californians, there is nothing higher in priority than RKBA. I feel for them.

[Cal-gun Fan]

IMHO every time California makes some stupid law the companies that are affected should turn their backs on that state like Ronnie Barrett did. Want fitted sheets required in hotels? Presto, no hotels working in San Fran. Want to deny the right to own a gun without microstamping? Poof, nobody sells guns or ammo including to LEOs. Want to require extra-special-clean cars? Poof, no cars in Cali including LEOs and EMS.

Let them secede and see how much better the otehr 49 states are.
Thats awful logic. Thats punishing the victim for getting robbed.

[KodiakBeer]

Thats awful logic. Thats punishing the victim for getting robbed.

No, it's more akin to volunteering to be the victim. California has onerous requirements for gun manufacturers, including "drop tests" and so forth where a manufacture must essentially donate numerous examples of their product to some agency and then pay for the testing. They can't even get the products back to sell on the used market after the testing. The guns are destroyed after testing. That's why so many guns commonly available elsewhere are not sold in California.

A similar dance exists for people trying to sell accessories. What little guy can possibly be expected to wend their way through this maze, especially when failure may bring criminal prosecution?

You guys need to clean up your own house, but I don't see that happening since people like you are heavily outnumbered.

[CoRoMo]

Thats punishing the victim for getting robbed.
Certainly you would agree that many robbery victims don't do enough to prevent becoming a victim. Some robbery victims put themselves in the wrong situation and open themselves up to the unfair treatment. Sometimes they bear a little responsibility for the way things turned out. They are not entirely to blame, but in a few instances, they could have done more to avoid the situation.

[Cal-gun Fan]

I certainly wouldn't agree that robberies are the fault of victims at all, not even a little. Well, perhaps in the case of a drug rip or something. But someone filling up his car at the gas station, or from a few years ago in my city, a man robbed and shot in a parking garage on a date. Even yesterday, a man robbed in a grocery store parking lot and shot in front of his 6 year old son. I don't think you can argue that "many robbery victims don't do enough to prevent themselves from becoming victims".

California gun owners fight very hard for their rights, much harder than people in any other state I would bet. However, we are the proverbial internal Afghanistan for the US. No matter how hard we fight, the place is not ready for change.

[CoRoMo]

I certainly wouldn't agree that robberies are the fault of victims at all, not even a little. Well, perhaps...
Yes perhaps... of course. :rolleyes:
I don't think you can argue that "many robbery victims don't do enough to prevent themselves from becoming victims".
Oh I certainly can and will. This of course is not the topic of your thread, but it is your thread. Discuss whatever you want. Here are a few facts: Many robbery victims don't carry a firearm. Many robbery victims don't avoid the worst parts of their own town. Many robbery victims continue in a lifestyle that carries too much risk of being a victim of crime. Many robbery victims don't maintain an optimum level of situational awareness. Many robbery victims don't consider the probability of being robbed. Many robbery victims never put thought toward a plan in the event that they get robbed. Many robbery victims never thought it would happen to them.

They didn't do enough to prevent themselves from becoming a victim. Read through some of the threads in S&T that contain the word 'interview' in the title. Many robbery victims never knew they were being 'interviewed' (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/interview.htm) until it was too late.
California gun owners fight very hard for their rights...
Not all of them. I have to believe that some aren't overly concerned about what is going on. Other social issues take up the majority of their time. Ever heard the term 'fudd'? While many California gun owners ARE fighting very hard for their rights and everyone else's rights, not all of them are so motivated.
...much harder than people in any other state...
Citation please. Just kidding, I know that there's no way to back that up. But you mentioned earlier that you are hoping to leave California some day. How is that going to help the cause?

Look, we're not on the opposite sides of this issue. I'm having a little fun with you because you keep making broad sweeping statements that are not completely accurate. I know gun a lot of owners who are more than willing to put up with ever encroaching infringements as long as their shotgun is still legal to own. That's the problem here and that's what went wrong there. I want your state to be as free as Arizona, but there are too many people there that refuse to do anything about it. A lot of them are in fact gun owners too. It's a difficult battle to fight. All the best to you though.

[EddieNFL]

What they are doing is looking me in the face and giving me the finger.

File a hurt feelings report. Life ain't fair.

[KodiakBeer]

Hey, I live in Alaska and the stupid HazMat laws make it almost impossible to ship live ammo up here. So, please pick up a couple thousand rounds of milsurp .762 NATO for me and stick it in a UPS box and ship it up to me. After all, I'm a "victim" and you should be willing to risk fines and imprisonment to help a brother out.

Cal-gun? Cal-gun? Did we lose our connection? Hello...?

[Cal-gun Fan]

Yes perhaps... of course. :rolleyes:
Wanna post the FULL sentence? I said:

Well, perhaps in the case of a drug rip or something.


Not all of them. I have to believe that some aren't overly concerned about what is going on. Other social issues take up the majority of their time. Ever heard the term 'fudd'? While many California gun owners ARE fighting very hard for their rights and everyone else's rights, not all of them are so motivated.

Citation please. Just kidding, I know that there's no way to back that up. But you mentioned earlier that you are hoping to leave California some day. How is that going to help the cause?

Look, we're not on the opposite sides of this issue. I'm having a little fun with you because you keep making broad sweeping statements that are not completely accurate. I know gun a lot of owners who are more than willing to put up with ever encroaching infringements as long as their shotgun is still legal to own. That's the problem here and that's what went wrong there. I want your state to be as free as Arizona, but there are too many people there that refuse to do anything about it. A lot of them are in fact gun owners too. It's a difficult battle to fight. All the best to you though.

California gun owners have to try harder to get their rights. Someone in Nevada, Texas, Georgia, Virginia, etc can just take hi-cap magazines and NFA stuff for granted. My leaving California doesn't necessarily have to do with gun rights or any type of useless activism, there are just other places I want to live.
The problem is that there just isn't that much that can be done about it right now. California isn't ready for change and it is no fault of ours, but the fault of a a sedentary anti-gun sentiment in our state government.

[Cal-gun Fan]

Hey, I live in Alaska and the stupid HazMat laws make it almost impossible to ship live ammo up here. So, please pick up a couple thousand rounds of milsurp .762 NATO for me and stick it in a UPS box and ship it up to me. After all, I'm a "victim" and you should be willing to risk fines and imprisonment to help a brother out.

Cal-gun? Cal-gun? Did we lose our connection? Hello...?

That sucks Kodiak, sorry about that! I wish people would ship ammunition to Alaska. Wasn't aware that it was that hard to order it, but then again I would imagine shipping costs would be terribly high as well.

[KodiakBeer]

Not to worry, I'll reimburse you fully for the shipping costs. When can I expect the ammo?

[Bojangles7]

California isn't ready for change and it is no fault of ours, but the fault of a sedentary anti-gun sentiment in our state government.

:confused: You guys don't vote for your state government officials?

[Cal-gun Fan]

Not to worry, I'll reimburse you fully for the shipping costs. When can I expect the ammo?
If I were to do so I would also need the money for the ammunition up front. I would be fully willing to do this, but I am 15, and my mother would frown upon it.

Hit me up in 3 more years :)

@Bojangles: Cali is a VERY liberal state. We can vote, but we aren't the majority.

[Bojangles7]

I know, I was just being a bit facetious. I was stationed at Camp Pendleton for a few years and really enjoyed my time there. I would not move back there as a civilian though because of the very reason you stated. I understand your frustration but I see the other side's point of view as well. Good luck finding the scope you want.

[bergmen]

:confused: You guys don't vote for your state government officials?

We vote, we join organizations that fight for sane California gun laws (CRPA Life Member), we contribute to said efforts, we tell friends and take non-shooters to the range, we promote shooting activities, contact fish and game to make sure hunting laws are not watered down, assist the County Sheriff in getting our National Forest lands safe for hunting, join local gun clubs that are politically active in local and state firearms affairs, obtain CCW licenses, join and contribute to forums such as these, buy guns and ammo from those that choose to allow us to patronize their businesses (resident or out of state), bring our sons and daughters (and their friends) into the shooting fraternity and empower them to be active (two sons and one daughter), become NRA Life member, write letters to local newspapers and club newsletters, Join IDPA, explain firearms ownership and safety to liberals who will listen, stock up on ammo and reloading supplies as a regular activity, the list can go on and on indefinitely.

Voting in this state (especially by those of us who are victims of the lefty juggernaut) is about as effective as hurling ping pong balls at a three foot thick, twelve foot high brick fortress and expecting to knock it down.

You got any other constructive suggestions?

Dan

[bergmen]

I would be fully willing to do this, but I am 15, and my mother would frown upon it.



You are far wiser than your 15 year age would suggest. I hope there are more like you where you live, you are the future of this state and my hat is off to you.

Dan

[Cal-gun Fan]

I appreciate that Bergmen, I try to be informed about firearm laws and the opposite points of view from anti's. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as I would like to be, but the High Road is a great place to debate and learn.

You live in Ukiah-ever go up to Pillsbury?

[bergmen]

I appreciate that Bergmen, I try to be informed about firearm laws and the opposite points of view from anti's. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as I would like to be, but the High Road is a great place to debate and learn.

You live in Ukiah-ever go up to Pillsbury?

Oh yeah, that is a favorite place for my two boys (22 & 23 y.o.). It is a great place to have fun with guns, lots and lots of shooting up there.

I belong to the Ukiah Gun Club that has a fine facility just northeast of town. My youngest son is receiving his CMP Garand tomorrow morning at 10:30 when FedEx comes a knockin'. We are going to go sight it in tomorrow the instant he gets off work. I'll bring my M1A so we can have a little fun.

Sorry to go O.T.

Dan

[Cal-gun Fan]

Oh yeah, that is a favorite place for my two boys (22 & 23 y.o.). It is a great place to have fun with guns, lots and lots of shooting up there.

I belong to the Ukiah Gun Club that has a fine facility just northeast of town. My youngest son is receiving his CMP Garand tomorrow morning at 10:30 when FedEx comes a knockin'. We are going to go sight it in tomorrow the instant he gets off work. I'll bring my M1A so we can have a little fun.

Sorry to go O.T.

Dan

NP, Ill PM you.

[orionengnr]

I detest this logic. I was born in California. In the future I hope to leave, but as of now I am in High School and thus leaving is impossible. Our laws are not our fault and we DO try to change them. The problem is, California is not ready for change. We accept this and throw the bullet buttons and magazine locks on our guns to make them legal etc.

Detest what you like. As I said earlier, I spent 20 years in CA--10 in the Bay area and 10 in the LA area.

When they made my AR an orphan with one stroke of a pen in '90 (register it with the state or become a felon overnight) I sent it to live in AL, where it stayed until I made it to Texas in '04.

And yes, I moved. I started applying for jobs within my company in places other than CA, and eventually my wish was granted. I was transferred to IL in 2001. It wasn't much of an improvement gun-law wise, but I'll tell you one thing:

I met more gun owners and 2A supporters in three years in the anti-2A Chicago area than I met in 20 years in CA.

I never met a Californian who fought for his rights, or who cared very much for the rights of others. I met many who wanted to keep their shotgun or Rem 700 and couldn't care less about someone else's right to own an AR or a handgun. FUDDs describes it perfectly.

I had to stay in IL for three years but actually enjoyed it. In spite of their corrupt politicians and ludicrous laws, the people of IL had a far better grasp of the 2A.

In 2004 I finally made it to Texas.

Yes, it was 90* when I woke up this morning, and it's been 100*+ 60 days this summer so far, including today and likely tomorrow. We don't have beaches or mountains. But we have freedom, and we value it and work to expand it.

After seven years, I still meet another shooter and 2A supporter about once a week. And I take new shooters to the range about once a month--people who have never fired a handgun but are open minded enough to give it a try.

We have elected idiots too. Plenty of them, as a matter of fact. They are supported by people who are ill-informed, or gullible, or who have come here from Blue states, and are trying to turn their new state into a mirror image of their old one. (Google "Californicate Oregon", Wyoming, Colorado, etc...)

Our laws are getting better because of the relentless efforts of 2A supporters here. Our Legislature only meets every two years, which is a mixed blessing. We get "Parking Lot" protection 1 September. We will keep working for Campus Carry and Open Carry.

[bergmen]

IMHO every time California makes some stupid law the companies that are affected should turn their backs on that state like Ronnie Barrett did. Want fitted sheets required in hotels? Presto, no hotels working in San Fran. Want to deny the right to own a gun without microstamping? Poof, nobody sells guns or ammo including to LEOs. Want to require extra-special-clean cars? Poof, no cars in Cali including LEOs and EMS.

Let them secede and see how much better the otehr 49 states are.

Barrett turned his back on the LAPD for supporting the 50 BMG rifle ban in California after they requested service for their own 50 BMG rifle. I supported his cause then and do so today to expose the utter hypocrisy of the poilitical position of some LEO departments.

Collusion (which is what this position would require) NEVER works, it only provides opportunities for those who will do an end-around to make a sale. In the meantime, it is US who will suffer, not the state. They could not give less of a damn, believe me.

With an economy that ranks about 6th or 7th in the world, all countries counted, it would be suicide to ignore us as a consumer force. If anyone sticks their nose up and decides not to do business with us, there are boat loads of companies and distributors that will step right in and take their place.

No, we NEED YOUR SUPPORT, your continued pressure against the norm by navigating around the maze and HELPING US OUT.

Freedoms are not granted, they are recognized and keeping them requires constant vigilance and tough effort against the opposition. We cannot do this if we are abandoned. The 2A in this country will die if people just walk away from intransigence by the authorities. They win, we lose.

You have to biff it out. That is how we got here, not by people in the late 1700's deciding to boycott the British and hope they would get the message.

Dan

[cacoltguy]

You guys don't vote for your state government officials?

Of course we do. Did you vote in the last presidential election? Do you get my point here? Gun owners in California are no more responsible for the anti-gun laws of CA than people like you are for the current administration in the White House. (Assuming you're opposed to the current policies of this administration) I vote, I support gun rights and I live in California.

Like I said earlier, I fully support any sellers right to do (or not do) business with whoever he pleases. But refusing sale to CA residents based strictly on a bizarre philosophical belief that you are "sticking it to the communist left wing anti gun regime" is ridiculous. All you are doing is withdrawing support for people of your own kind who live in enemy territory and try to keep the U.S. Constitution alive in a place where it is on life support.

[Bobson]

You say its not your fault.

Have you worked to organize a valid opposition to your rulers?---Have you made plans to move?
My thoughts exactly.

By living in a certain state, you're supporting the people elected to represent you, especially if you're not actively involved in politics. Today's Americans who refuse to become actively involved in politics are taking a knee to their elected officials and saying:

"Rule over me! I lack the passion and interest to do my duty as an American, and don't care to ensure that this democracy functions as it was intended to."

That's really all there is to it. You can claim to be a voting supporter of pro-gun legislation and conservative views, but if you think voting is good enough... take a look around. Obviously it's not good enough. What else can you do about it? Go ask a member of congress - they weren't born into positions of power. They were born naked, bloody, crying, and helpless, just like everyone else. This isn't 1102 England, it's 2011 America. The people who make the decisions are the people who cared enough to make their voices heard.

[Maple_City_Woodsman]

Logic does not apply to firearms.

[cacoltguy]

By living in a certain state, you're supporting the people elected to represent you

So Bobson, by living in the United States I can only assume, by your logic, you are a supporter of the current left-wing administration. Baffling. I'm glad you are fortunate enough to be living (and I assume employed) in a pro-gun state. I still cannot comprehend the how the idea of trying to relocating gun owners and guns from California does anything to improve gun ownership conditions here in CA or the U.S. as a whole.

[Bobson]

It does nothing to improve conditions for people in California. I readily agree. The goal isn't to make things better for the ignorant masses, the goal is to make things better for my family. I love California. I was born there, I love the weather and scenery. But I'll never live there, because I can't stand the average political opinion, and realize that one man among a mass can't change anything.

And yes, as an American citizen who's taxes pay our President's salary, I am a supporter, whether I voted for him or not.

[ants]

This post isn't meant to insult anyone, but rather to motivate.

Afraid to ship an accessory because you don't know the laws?
You certainly can learn the law if you want to.
For the vast majority of gun accessories, it isn't hard at all.
If you have a really weird or unusual accessory and the law is vague on it,
maybe you just don't chance it.
But the rules for common accessories are well known.

Look at the TENS of thousands of businesses and people who state in their advertisements that they DO ship firearms accessories and supplies to California. Because they're idiots and don't know what they're messing with? No, they looked it up and confirmed the legal requirement for the item they sell.

Can I sell a telescopic sight in California? -Well, I can go look it up.
Can I sell my pistol to a Californian? -Well, I'll go find out. Maybe, maybe not.
Can I sell anything in California? -It depends upon what it is. Let's find out.
The laws are not kept secret from me.

Now you say, "Well, it's just not that easy... these things are complicated."

But the sellers who sell to Californians found out that it is easy.
If they care to find out, the information is readily available.
Trouble comes to those who don't find out, but ship anyway.
If you get true information from the official source, and run the
straight and true line, you won't flirt with extradition.

Exception: Some people really aren't very capable, some are illiterate, some aren't book smart. Often that is honestly the case. And I certainly don't disparage the person with insufficient intelligence to discover the buying and selling laws in any state. I give those guys the benefit of the doubt, they better not even try. But I read our articulate posts on this thread, and I realize that many of us CAN find out about shipping a telescopic sight to California, or any other goods. Some goods can be shipped, some cannot. We should make the effort to go find out.


NOTE: This post is not meant to insult anyone. If so, I sincerely apologize.

I'm just saying that we (too often) avoid doing things
because we just don't take the time to find out.
This post is intended to motivate all of us to try harder.



I'm still wondering what scope the OP wants. If one is available here in my home town, I'll check the price for him. Then I'll go verify that it can be shipped legally, and I'll help the OP get his scope.

[Cal-gun Fan]

My thoughts exactly.

By living in a certain state, you're supporting the people elected to represent you, especially if you're not actively involved in politics. Today's Americans who refuse to become actively involved in politics are taking a knee to their elected officials and saying:

"Rule over me! I lack the passion and interest to do my duty as an American, and don't care to ensure that this democracy functions as it was intended to."

That's really all there is to it. You can claim to be a voting supporter of pro-gun legislation and conservative views, but if you think voting is good enough... take a look around. Obviously it's not good enough. What else can you do about it? Go ask a member of congress - they weren't born into positions of power. They were born naked, bloody, crying, and helpless, just like everyone else. This isn't 1102 England, it's 2011 America. The people who make the decisions are the people who cared enough to make their voices heard.

I was born in California. I like it here, though I do plan to move out after I turn 18 for reasons that have nothing to do with guns, I would simply like to see the country. To tell me to move is highly narrow minded. To insinuate that I should get up and leave my friends and family, my school or my job, to go to a state that has better gun rights so as not to support the ************ns is just ignorance.
I am a supporter of pro-gun legislation and conservative views. Do I think voting is enough? No. Do I need to get elected to be a member of congress? I wouldn't do that if my life depended on it. I won't go down the road of arguing about that and turn this into a partisan debate either though.

[Mike1234567]

IMHO every time California makes some stupid law the companies that are affected should turn their backs on that state like Ronnie Barrett did. Want fitted sheets required in hotels? Presto, no hotels working in San Fran. Want to deny the right to own a gun without microstamping? Poof, nobody sells guns or ammo including to LEOs. Want to require extra-special-clean cars? Poof, no cars in Cali including LEOs and EMS.

Let them secede and see how much better the otehr 49 states are.

I'd agree with not selling to any state agency but why not sell to individuals?

[Mike1234567]

I'll just address the issue of "researching California laws" in order to sell there.

It's certainly worthwhile for a company do so and probably is for an individual who makes all or part of his living at such. However, for us folk who may only sell gun-related items occasionally, it's just not cost-effective. As much as I do care about the plight of California citizens I simply won't spend my time looking up CA law, or other state laws, because there are 40+ states for which I don't need to bother with that. Call me lazy or uncaring or whatever but it just ain't gonna happen.

Now, if we had the "State Laws" sticky I mentioned in an earlier post then I'd be more inclined to sell in those states. The problem with said sticky is it would place THR squarely on the culpibility hot-seat and I don't see why the good folks here would take that chance.

[rellascout]

I'm just saying that we (too often) avoid doing things
because we just don't take the time to find out.
This post is intended to motivate all of us to try harder

Sorry but IMHO this mentality and statement comes from someone who has never run a small business. Time = money. If I have XXX Scope and can sell it to 49 other states without hassle and do it regularly why would I feel the need to wade into the murky waters of CA or any other heavily regulated area.

If it takes more time and exposes you to more risk you have to ask yourself is it worth the time and extra risk. Its may or may not be about laziness. The tone and scope of your post does not take into consideration that this may simply be a smart business decision and as I think you already know the tone of your post is insulting pre-apoligizing does not mitagate that. :(

[cacoltguy]

I can understand not shipping to California due to the confusion of the states gun laws (Although I really don't think a great deal of research or intelligence is needed to learn them. The laws are pretty easy to understand even if they are anti-American in nature) However, the original poster was discussing an individual who refused to sell based off of some idiotic rhetoric about supporting a communist regime if he sold to a CA resident. Hogwash. You are selling to and supporting individuals who are opposed to the "Kommiefornia gustapo" Either way, its his right to sell to whoever he wants. The philosophy is just plain ignorant, misguided and wrong.

[ants]

Our friend rellascout said:Sorry but IMHO this mentality and statement comes from someone who has never run a small business.

Sorry, rellascout my friend, but I run TWO small businesses.
Sole proprietor of an architecture firm, and I own a sushi restaurant.

I totally understand your 'time is money' phrase. Absolutely.

I'm truly encouraging us to be motivated to improve our world.
Not asking you to go broke doing it.
By opening up your market to California with a little research,
you can make the ideal 'time is money' work for you.

Been there, done that. It works if you want to make it work.

[Mike1234567]

I agree that the rhetoric the seller used is inflamatory, rude, closed-minded, worthless nonesense.

[rellascout]

I'm truly encouraging us to be motivated to improve our world.
Not asking you to go broke doing it.
By opening up your market to California with a little research,
you can make the ideal 'time is money' work for you.

Been there, done that. It works if you want to make it work.

I am sorry but complying with the BS rules and regs of CA does not and will not improve the world. IMHO doing the exact opposite will have a better impact. Each time you comply you infact strength them. Sorry but that is the reality. I feel bad for people who live there but we all make choices in life. My wife was offered a high paying job in a dry county in KY. You had to drive 20 minutes to get a beer in a resturant and over an hour to get to a liquor store. We have choosen not to relocate there because the values expressed in their laws do not reflect ours. I feel the same way about gun laws. I grew up in MD but would have a hard time moving back there because of their restrictions. Choices choices choices thankfully we still get to make some.

Maybe for you and your business the equation makes sense but that does not necessarily translate to someone elses. Again if I am already seemlessly selling and shipping my products to areas without heavy regulation why do I need to go into a heavily regulated higher risk area? I am going to sell at the same profit margin but one is going to cost me more? How is that maximizing my business? It seems like you are suggesting businesses do it out of altruism? Is that the way you runs your business? Do you take less profit and accept more risk to make the world a better place? If you do that is great. I love to hear different perspectives other small business owners.

To the OP if you don't like the verbiage that the seller is using then don't bid. I do not buy things from people who do not support me and my values whenever possible.

[Jon_Snow]

[Moving] does nothing to improve conditions for people in California. I readily agree. The goal isn't to make things better for the ignorant masses, the goal is to make things better for my family. I love California. I was born there, I love the weather and scenery. But I'll never live there, because I can't stand the average political opinion, and realize that one man among a mass can't change anything.

The problem with that reasoning is that, in the end it isn't better for your family. Politics is a game of precedents. Once you get something in place somewhere, it's much easier to get it implemented elsewhere. CA in particular has been and will continue to be a politically trend-setting state. Do you really want to cede it to the anti's? If you do you can guarantee that pretty soon you'll be seeing similar bans proposed in your home state.

What people don't realize is that the CA pro-gun rights lobby is VERY active. They have to be to keep things from getting much worse. And thanks to things like the Heller decision, we're finally able to push back some. Now would be the worst time for us to back out. We're fighting the root of the problem.

Anti thought is like a disease, if part of you is sick you don't ignore it or lop it off, you treat it. Don't think that if you leave CA or any state to the 'ignorant masses' that they'll be content to let you enjoy your freedoms. Sooner or later they'll decide they want to live near you and they'll bring their politics with them. The solution is to educate them. Don't like ex-Californians coming to your state and messing things up? Take them shooting. Ignorant masses threatening your way of life? Show them that guns aren't the scary baby murdering objects they think they are. Take people on the fence shooting. Show them that the BS spouted by the Brady's is just that, BS. Introducing people to our passion is the single most effective way to protect it and it's something everyone can do, regardless of background or political aspirations.

[tntwatt]

Blows me away how so many people keep saying "victim" and "they aren't responsible" when refering to those living in anti-2a states.....If it isn't their fault, whose is it? They are the people who continue to vote in their politicians, they are the people who sit back and whine and do nothing as their rights are stripped away..... It's attitudes like this that have caused us to loose so many rights already....

[Jon_Snow]

Blows me away how so many people keep saying "victim" and "they aren't responsible" when refering to those living in anti-2a states.....If it isn't their fault, whose is it? They are the people who continue to vote in their politicians, they are the people who sit back and whine and do nothing as their rights are stripped away..... It's attitudes like this that have caused us to loose so many rights already....

I DIDN'T vote for the current politicians. Elections are not unanimous. I didn't vote for the ammo regulations, or the lead-free BS or any of that stuff. I voted AGAINST them. I told my friends and family to vote against them. I explained why they are bad ideas. Most of the people I talked to agreed with me and I believe most did vote against them. I'm a member of the NRA, the CRPA and the GOA. I donate money to all of the above in addition to my membership dues. I'm an active member of my local gun club. I take new people shooting on a regular basis, people who have never handled a gun before. The vast majority of them keep coming back. Many of them are now gun-owners themselves. So tell me, how is this my fault? What more am I supposed to do? How much more do I need to do so that you don't think I'm 'sitting back and whining'?

[Jon_Snow]

One more thing: several people have mentioned Kel-Tec as not selling to CA. I don't think that's true although there may be other companies that choose not to. I say this because I used to own a Kel-Tec SU-16CA, which is a version of their SU-16C made specifically to comply w/ the CA AWB. If you're looking to get mad at someone, Kel-Tec isn't the right target.

[mljdeckard]

I wouldn't have used the word communist, but I might have said something like; "I refuse to ship to California until their restrictions of gun rights are lifted", or something to that effect. I fully support STI and Ronnie Barrett in being tough and not selling in California.

Even if it's not the fault of Californian gun owners that these laws exist, it is THE RESPONSIBILITY of Californian gun owners to get them repealed. The gun community refusing to do business there is about all we can do to help.

[Strykervet]

Look in Shotgun News. I have one from a few months ago and I saw one in there that was $99. Not illuminated. You can find them from time to time, 4x to 6x, with or without illumination, seldom for more than $200-$300. They turn up at gunshows too.

Keep your eye out, they also make a sight for the AK that is like a Trilux, and another that looks like that but fits RPG's (don't know if the mount is the same).

I just recall all this from memory, I wasn't even looking for them, but they do pop up quite often.

I've seen the "won't ship to Cali" before. Don't understand it save not wanting to run afoul of some stupid law (in which case I still don't understand it!).

[Cal-gun Fan]

That actually was the scope, Strykervet, the 1P29.

[bergmen]

I wouldn't have used the word communist, but I might have said something like; "I refuse to ship to California until their restrictions of gun rights are lifted", or something to that effect. I fully support STI and Ronnie Barrett in being tough and not selling in California.

Even if it's not the fault of Californian gun owners that these laws exist, it is THE RESPONSIBILITY of Californian gun owners to get them repealed. The gun community refusing to do business there is about all we can do to help.

Thanks for your support. Have a nice day.

Dan

[mljdeckard]

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't true.

[Bobson]

I DIDN'T vote for the current politicians. Elections are not unanimous. I didn't vote for the ammo regulations, or the lead-free BS or any of that stuff. I voted AGAINST them. I told my friends and family to vote against them. I explained why they are bad ideas. Most of the people I talked to agreed with me and I believe most did vote against them. I'm a member of the NRA, the CRPA and the GOA. I donate money to all of the above in addition to my membership dues. I'm an active member of my local gun club. I take new people shooting on a regular basis, people who have never handled a gun before. The vast majority of them keep coming back. Many of them are now gun-owners themselves. So tell me, how is this my fault? What more am I supposed to do? How much more do I need to do so that you don't think I'm 'sitting back and whining'?
You need to get up and leave. Do what you can to change things that shouldn't be happening. When you've done all you feel you can do, and you aren't successful in changing anything, you don't shrug your shoulders and say, "Oh well, I tried." Nobody cares if you tried. If people did that, this world would be a ****tier place than it already is.

Instead, you take the next step. Otherwise, you're sitting there whining. My two cents.

[WardenWolf]

People who say this need to understand one thing: their refusal to do business with California residents is exactly what California's government wants, and that attitude lets them win. Being unwilling to jump through the hoops allows California's lawmakers to succeed at their goal: depriving their law-abiding citizens of guns.

[MikeNice]

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't true.
So, by giving the anti-gun people what they want you defeat them? Is that a Jedi mind trick?

[mljdeckard]

I don't know at all that it is what they want.

[Mike1234567]

You need to get up and leave. Do what you can to change things that shouldn't be happening. When you've done all you feel you can do, and you aren't successful in changing anything, you don't shrug your shoulders and say, "Oh well, I tried." Nobody cares if you tried. If people did that, this world would be a ****tier place than it already is.

Instead, you take the next step. Otherwise, you're sitting there whining. My two cents.
No offense, sir. And speaking of doing something to fight for our rights... what have you done, or any of us for that matter, to deal with our messed up Federal Laws/Regs that encroach on the 2A?

[Jon_Snow]

You need to get up and leave. Do what you can to change things that shouldn't be happening. When you've done all you feel you can do, and you aren't successful in changing anything, you don't shrug your shoulders and say, "Oh well, I tried." Nobody cares if you tried. If people did that, this world would be a ****tier place than it already is.

Instead, you take the next step. Otherwise, you're sitting there whining. My two cents.

I think you're missing my point. What I'm trying to say is that Ca's gun owners are active and fighting tooth and nail. We have to be to keep things from getting worse. And they haven't been lately, despite the efforts of a whole mess of anti-politicians. We're not done yet either, I've still got plenty of fight left.

You think Ca's laws are bad now? It's a paradise compared to what the anti's want and would have if we all pulled up stakes and did as you suggest. The anti's want to force us out, which is all the more reason I should stay. This isn't a kids' game where you just walk away if you don't like the rules, this is a battle where retreating means giving ground to the enemy. It means giving them a stable base where they can reinfornce their broken ideas and launch assaults on neighboring states (Your home state of Arizona for example). I don't want to run away. I'm going to stay and continue spending my money and time fighting their adgenda.

[Jon_Snow]

I wouldn't have used the word communist, but I might have said something like; "I refuse to ship to California until their restrictions of gun rights are lifted", or something to that effect. I fully support STI and Ronnie Barrett in being tough and not selling in California.

Let's get one thing clear here. Barrett's boycott is not against the citizens of Ca. Barrett refused to sell to Ca state agencies because they supported the .50 BMG ban. Barrett does sell their rifles in other calibers to civilians here. For that reason I also support Barrett's decision. He's specifically refusing to sell to people with a contrary political belief. That's a big difference from stopping all sales to Ca. He's saying: "I'm not going to supply the enemy until they change sides." You're saying: "I'm not going to supply my allies until they give up." The anti's want fewer gun and gun owners in Ca, telling me to move and not selling me guns because of where I live is exactly what they want.

ETA: Link (http://www.wmsa.net/news/CNSNews/cns-030609_barrett_boycott.htm) to details on Barrett's boycott. I dug around and found out that STI is boycotting all of Ca, although some sources say they are now selling to LE and they do list one FFL in Ca as a distributor and dealer. Basically, they're doing the opposite of Barrett, supporting those that trample our rights and shafting the people who want to make things better.

[Asherdan]

What the dickens is up with all you guys telling us California boys we should quit and run away? The heck with that noise.

[blakeci]

so ,
if the pro gun people leave Cali and the anti's win, how does that help our gun rights in the rest of the country? The anti's will see that as a victory, and it will embolden them to try it in another state. It will energize them for years.

I, however, would rather support my Cali brethren in their fight and give encouragement. Rather than telling them to be cowards and slink away into the night with their tails between their legs.

Maybe the reason why gun rights in certain states is the way it is, has to do with people with attitudes like y'alls that basically say "F*** 'em they made their bed, now they can lie in it." Shouldn't we stand together?

[Bobson]

I, however, would rather support my Cali brethren in their fight and give encouragement.
Selling a gun to someone isn't supporting him, and telling him to roll over and take it where the Sun doesn't shine isn't encouraging. What I'm doing is encouraging. Encouraging people who actually believe the Constitution means something to tell their politicians to piss off. Encouraging them to realize that since they can't change the opinions of the masses, to join the rest of us in areas where we are the masses. Were our founding fathers cowards for leaving Europe and forming America? No, they realized they couldn't sway the common opinion, and decided to "stand together," as you put it, and here we are. Maybe it's time we stand together once again.

I'm all for standing together, as long as the people I'm standing with have enough dedication to the cause to continue the fight. Leaving a land of oppression isn't giving up, it's forcing the idiots to fend for themselves.

If all the pro-2A people in Cali left for states where reps actually believe the Constitution means something, instead of crying about how they're being oppressed by the idiots who run that state, where would California be? The entire state would be left with all the morons who call shots in cities like San Francisco (where residents can't legally own ANY guns, but visitors are free to bring them). It won't take much time for that situation to show voters that they need to turn things around. Frankly, I believe nothing less that will work to bring about that change.

If you're a California resident and you disagree, well... I'm sorry. You can choose to remain there and live with it, but make sure you know that nobody else has the power to change anything. It's entirely up to you and your neighbors. If your efforts aren't working, then I guess you're SOL. Feel free to keep working to change things, with the knowledge that you may never be successful; or come join us in the real America - where the Bill of Rights is enforced, instead of ignored.

[rori]

I won't sell or buy anything from California or Texas. For my own reasons and it may not be rational but thats what makes the USA great is we still have a little free choice. Frank

[cacoltguy]

Cowards leave when the going gets tough. I urge all you arm-chair quarterbacks living in places like Texas and Arizona to grow a pair and move to CA and put your money where your mouth is. Its easy to lecture from a pedestal when you can enjoy your 2nd amendment rights with no effort whatsoever. You did nothing to fight for those rights you enjoy, those states were conservative and pro-gun way before most of you were even born so don't tell me that I need to look to people such as yourselves for leadership and take responsibility for CA politics.

Ceding control and moving away from a problem does nothing to improve and ensure our Second Amendment rights. Those of you that advocate ignoring CA or moving away to solve the problem are 100% delusional and the NRA doesn't agree with your philosophy one iota. They spend quite a bit of money and resources here (backed by Cali NRA members) fighting the left-wing regime.

But seriously, stop lecturing us about how we need to relocate our families and give up good jobs and stop telling us we are the reason for the problem because we live here. If every gun owner relocated to Texas and AZ guess what would happen to gun rights for the rest of the states? It wouldn't be good and if you think that is the best course of action you are doing a huge disservice to the 2nd Amendment and gun owners everywhere.

Like I said, back up you mouth with action and come here to CA to fight for our rights if you feel so strongly against the situation here. Don't lecture us from your gun owners utopia like AZ that you most likely enjoy by default and had nothing to do with creating. I vote for the same type of people you do but unfortunately I don't enjoy the luxury of having the majority of the population in my favor. You should be moving here to create a better CA and a better USA as a whole. I'm here in enemy territory fighting for my rights as a gun-owner, where are you? But go ahead, don't sell to the gun-owner living in CA because his job took him there or maybe he is there serving in the military. That will really solve the problem and make you feel like you are sticking it to the left (sarcasm intended)

[cacoltguy]

I am sorry but complying with the BS rules and regs of CA does not and will not improve the world. IMHO doing the exact opposite will have a better impact. Each time you comply you infact strength them. Sorry but that is the reality.

I can't help but feel there is a serious disconnect between the philosophy and reality of what you are saying. How could you possibly comply more with CA's anti-gun laws than refusing to send guns and gun accessories to CA? Do you not realize that this is the very intent of the laws? The more guns and gun owners that flood the state the harder it is for them to restrict our rights.

[Diggers]

So why is it always CA? :confused: I live in CA and we are fighting the anti laws and have had some good wins in the recent past.

I think CA is gets yapped about SO much in gun forums such as THIS that people out there have a somewhat skewed idea of reality here in CA.

Yes, CA has some strict gun laws in some specific areas but so do other states and often times other states laws are actually more strict than CA’s!

Why don’t I ever see a blanket statement of --No sales to NJ or IL or Mass.-- posted on gun broker or other sites??

I think CA has become the whipping boy for this issue and people hear about it so much they just are running scared.

I recently bought a nice Kentucky black powder rifle from cabela’s and had it shipped to my house no problem.

Good thing I don't live in HI, IL, MA, MI, NJ or NY because I couldn't of done that in those states.

The folks in those states should probably move here. ;)

[lizziedog1]

There are many subjects on this forum that I know little or nothing about. That is one reason I am a member here and visit here as often as possible, to learn stuff!

One area I do know something about is California. I was born there and spent the first ninety percent of my life there. I was convinced I was going to be buried there. For the last few years I have lived in the bordering state. I didn't move because of gun laws, but the change in gun laws and gun attitudes sure makes this place nice.

Even though some of my reponses here pick on the Golden State and its folks, I really support their progun people and wish them all the luck in the world.

Some folks here mention that the gun owners of California should not be blamed or punished for the laws enacted there. I do agree, but not one hundred precent. Some California gun owners do have some blame to shoulder.

I used to frequent a trap club there. That is when the Evil Black Rifle laws were making their way through the system. Some of the trap shooters were actually in favor of these laws, they figured Perazzi and Browning Shotguns were safe. When California went to limit magazine capacities, again, I knew some gun owners there that either supported or didn't care, it didn't affect their particular shooting hobby.

Also, if you think only laws related to guns make California a poor place to live, guess again. I mentioned this before.

In downtown Sacramento they have the state law library. They have laws books from all the states. Most of the states have a shelf or two dedicated to their laws books. A whole section of the library is dedicated to California law books.

I apologize for this ranting and raving. I do support gun owners from any state. I do pray that the good people in California can get things turned around, not just for guns, but everything. But, some of the gun owners there do have to share some of the blame for the laws they have to live under.

[whalerman]

This is a great debate. I understand both sides. As a NYer, I'm tempted to side with the defenders of California gun owners who say they should not be held to blame for the Nazi-like gun laws that are proliferating in that state. But I can't. Whether we live in MA, NY, NJ, CA, IL, or any of the other states that have trampled the Constitution we bear responsibility for the government we elect. Our ignorance and lack of involvement has encouraged this. How many of us own guns, but aren't NRA members, who shoot or hunt, but don't vote regularly, who own guns for defense of our family, but have never written a letter to the editor or made a campaign contribution? We have been lazy and have allowed others to fight for our rights. Then we're quick to complain with these rights are limited. Perhaps the greatest failure of the citizens and gun owners of these problem states is the way they have allowed their schools to be taken over by anti-gun zealots. This has ensured an atmosphere where winning elections gets more difficult all the time. No, I'd like to say it isn't the fault of gun owners, but I believe it is. It is our resposibility to educate more people with facts and principles.

[lizziedog1]

Mr. Whalerman, great reply!

This is going to sound even goofier.

There are many folks here that moved here from California. They moved for many reasons. There is a little bit more freedom here. Also, the taxes are a bit easier on the pocketbook.

But here is the goofy part. They move here from California, then they start to want to change the laws here to replicate the ones they left behind. Come on, look who we send to Washington.

I was out in the desert one day just plinking away into the side of a hill. Some older dude walked up to me and asked if I was concerned about putting lead into the environment. I asked him where do you think lead comes from? He had just moved here from California. I assume he moved here to get away from the goofiness there. Yet, he wants to spread it here.

Californians are not totally faultless for the problems they have there.

[EddieNFL]

I recently bought a nice Kentucky black powder rifle from cabela’s and had it shipped to my house no problem.

Bought any 30 round AR mags lately?

[orionengnr]

To tell me to move is highly narrow minded. To insinuate that I should get up and leave my friends and family, my school or my job, to go to a state that has better gun rights so as not to support the ************ns is just ignorance.
Actually, it is the essence of prioritizing and decision-making. Decide what really matters to you, and act accordingly. Life is tough, and some decisions are exceedingly tough. Part of being an adult.
I used to frequent a trap club there. That is when the Evil Black Rifle laws were making their way through the system. Some of the trap shooters were actually in favor of these laws, they figured Perazzi and Browning Shotguns were safe. When California went to limit magazine capacities, again, I knew some gun owners there that either supported or didn't care, it didn't affect their particular shooting hobby.
Bingo. From my post #88:
And yes, I moved. I started applying for jobs within my company in places other than CA, and eventually my wish was granted. I was transferred to IL in 2001. It wasn't much of an improvement gun-law wise, but I'll tell you one thing:

I met more gun owners and 2A supporters in three years in the anti-2A Chicago area than I met in 20 years in CA.

I never met a Californian who fought for his rights, or who cared very much for the rights of others. I met many who wanted to keep their shotgun or Rem 700 and couldn't care less about someone else's right to own an AR or a handgun. FUDDs describes it perfectly.

I had to stay in IL for three years but actually enjoyed it. In spite of their corrupt politicians and ludicrous laws, the people of IL had a far better grasp of the 2A.

CA gun owners are their own worst enemy. In my 20 years in CA (more time than the OP has spent on this Earth), I never met one NRA member. Not...one. And yes, I was one back then. :)

[rori]

Moving isn't the answer unless your a coward!!!!!!!! The only option is to stay and fight for your God given rights even if it means dying for them.Stay there and fight the Ba0000ds to the death.

[MattTheHat]

Moving isn't the answer unless your a coward!!!!!!!!

Coward? How about being a realist?


-Matt

[Mike1234567]

Actually, if they could all afford to move and did en mass and within a relatively short time (a few years) and cited why they were moving the message would be very clear. It would hit the kingpins right where it hurts... in their wallets. The loss in tax revenues would be extreme and they would have little choice but to rethink their 2A destruction. But this is just a pipe dream... it's just not practical.

[Diggers]

Quote:
I recently bought a nice Kentucky black powder rifle from cabela’s and had it shipped to my house no problem.

Bought any 30 round AR mags lately?

Those mags make my Kentucky rifle look funny. :rolleyes:

[cacoltguy]

CA gun owners are their own worst enemy. In my 20 years in CA (more time than the OP has spent on this Earth), I never met one NRA member. Not...one. And yes, I was one back then.

Unless you were looking in San Francisco or downtown LA I find that hard to believe. I've only been here 4 years and know quite a few. My local shooting club has a nice facility out in the desert with several pistol ranges, separate 200 and 300 yard ranges as well as a 1000 yard range. Every week from Sept to May (the rest of the year is unbearably hot) there are matches. Most of the attendees are NRA members. Many of my co-workers are gun enthusiasts. Most of us also came from other states to work here. Believe me, I would love to live somewhere more conservative and gun friendly but I'm here shooting, reloading, shooting some more and trying to further my cause as an American. I am politically to the right and vote accordingly. I have taken several people in town here shooting for the first time in their lives and they love it. Care to guess how many military are stationed in CA? Quite a few and plenty of them are gun enthusiasts also. Most of us here are enjoying shooting too much to be worried about whether some looneytoon will refuse to sell us a rifle accessory online for fear that we will flip it for a profit and donate the proceeds to Nancy Pelosi's reelection campaign. But hey, whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night.

Now if you want to experience a gun owners worst nightmare try living in New Jersey. It makes California look like Arizona.

[CoRoMo]

I used to frequent a trap club there. That is when the Evil Black Rifle laws were making their way through the system. Some of the trap shooters were actually in favor of these laws, they figured Perazzi and Browning Shotguns were safe. When California went to limit magazine capacities, again, I knew some gun owners there that either supported or didn't care, it didn't affect their particular shooting hobby.
That's the primary problem. People in other states are not the problem.

[Bobson]

Moving isn't the answer unless your a coward!!!!!!!!
Coward? How about being a realist?
Agreed. Was George Washington a coward when he left England? How about Thomas Jefferson? Paul Revere? Each one left his home to seek a better life for his family, and each fought for his rights. Not a single coward among them.

A man who's dedicated enough to move from what he knows to a strange new place is anything but a coward. I'd sooner call you a coward for choosing to stay in a land of oppression. And let's face it, that's what California is. You live in America and you're being denied the rights every American is supposed to have, and the rights most other Americans do have.

[ljnowell]

Agreed. Was George Washington a coward when he left England? How about Thomas Jefferson? Paul Revere? Each one left his home to seek a better life for his family, and each fought for his rights. Not a single coward among them.



Actually, not to be a jerk, but those guys were all born in the 13 colonies, they were not from England. In fact I think it was two from virginia and one from massachusets

[Bobson]

My mistake then, thanks for the correction. And yeah, I really should have figured that myself, since pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock in what... 1640? Way before 1776..

Anyway, my point remains. I wouldn't call the pilgrims cowards, I'd lean toward calling the people who stayed behind the cowards.