Caliber vs Capacity- What's more valuable in a CCW?


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St.Pete7
August 27, 2011, 03:09 AM
Cartridge vs Capacity- I'm shopping for a new carry gun: with the flood of smaller, easily concealable pistols of all types and calibers on the market, deciding on a suitable compromize has been a daunting task. Currently, I pocket a S&W Model 37 with the addition of a bianchi speed-strip should I need to reload. But, with all the footage on real-world gun fights, I kinda feel like I'm straddling the minimum performance threshold with a 5-shot revolver chambered in .38spl.
Florida's growing trend of multi-thug home invasions and robberies prompted me to seek-out a pistol with proven stopping-power, as well as the on-board capacity to engage multiple threats. I just don't know if there's a happy-median of power vs capacity that I should look for at the gun shop. Any direction or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
-St.Pete7

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PRM
August 27, 2011, 04:09 AM
Gotta remember this is an internet forum and with your question, you are going to get every answer across the spectrum.

There is nothing wrong with what you have (.38 special). Nothing wrong with adding a shotgun in your home or larger caliber in your handgun, or higher capacity if that is what you feel you need. I personally would rather have a J frame on me, than bigger in a nightstand or somewhere other than where I am.

When all the posts are finished, you and you alone will have to decide what works for you.

MrBorland
August 27, 2011, 04:10 AM
Caliber vs Capacity- What's more valuable in a CCW?

Proficiency.

plateshooter
August 27, 2011, 06:16 AM
I choose capacity. For one threat, my j frame is fine, but for multiple threats, I like lots of bullets without having to stop and reload. My favorite is my M&P9c with full size 17 round magazine.

Snowdog
August 27, 2011, 06:38 AM
Not to dive into the capacity vs cartridge debate, I agree that proficiency plays a role far more vital than either.

Perhaps mistakenly so, I subscribe to the idea that anyone attempting to rob me would be a simple thug type as I am not exactly a high-profile target. An attack against me would likely be classified as a crime of opportunity and not something that has been thoroughly thought-out and rehearsed.

Because of this, I believe if there indeed are multiple attackers, they would most likely scatter after the first couple shots remove some gray matter from one of their "associates", choosing not to dig in and fight it out until police arrive.
So my priority is to be able to quickly produce the pistol and put a couple rounds where the they need to go.

PabloJ
August 27, 2011, 06:56 AM
Cartridge vs Capacity- I'm shopping for a new carry gun: with the flood of smaller, easily concealable pistols of all types and calibers on the market, deciding on a suitable compromize has been a daunting task. Currently, I pocket a S&W Model 37 with the addition of a bianchi speed-strip should I need to reload. But, with all the footage on real-world gun fights, I kinda feel like I'm straddling the minimum performance threshold with a 5-shot revolver chambered in .38spl.
Florida's growing trend of multi-thug home invasions and robberies prompted me to seek-out a pistol with proven stopping-power, as well as the on-board capacity to engage multiple threats. I just don't know if there's a happy-median of power vs capacity that I should look for at the gun shop. Any direction or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
-St.Pete7
If you're worried perhaps it's time to get BOTH. I would say you're about ready to start drinking KOOL AID.

Loosedhorse
August 27, 2011, 07:12 AM
Agree with both. Consider:

30+1 .22WMR
17+1 9mm
7+1 .45ACP

I might easily want more effective shots rather than just more shots, so the 9mm looks pretty good.

Then again, if I like .45, maybe I should just carry spare mags and learn to reload fast? :D

hardluk1
August 27, 2011, 07:22 AM
Hard to find anything with higher capacity that is close to the same size and weight of your 37 when loaded, 24oz, right. IF a extra firearm is still wanted AND you have a better half they may also have the need to shot it, size and grip need to fit and control for her too. Nothing wrong with the 37. I carried a 5 shot for 22 years. and today still don't carry a high cap pistol but do have an alternative at home. One of the lowest price house /high cap pistols would a s&w sigma in 9mm. They can be bought under 300 dollars all day long ,trigger will be like DA on your 37 and grip could be ok for small hands. Or look to a 20 ga shot gun ,something that a non-shooting spouce can learn to be profisient with. Both can be under that 300 dollar price. If only one pistol is wanted just try what you can for fit and size like a XD, glock or m&p used to save a few bucks. I know theres other too. Thee no perfect pistol for all of us.

PabloJ
August 27, 2011, 07:49 AM
....and I thought Glock Perfection Model 19 was for all of us? Getting Sigma is like dressing up with clothing from Walmart.:barf:

Lawdawg45
August 27, 2011, 08:00 AM
Your post actually asked 2 different questions, one about concealed carry and the other about home defense, so I'll reply with 2 answers. For concealed carry, a proven round like the .38/.357 or 9mm is sufficient for most situations, and with lower capacity weapons reloading is paramount, so either go with a semi-auto or really work on speed reloads with your revolver. Home defense gives you 10X the selection of weapons, so if multiple suspects are a reality I'd go with a high capacity semi-auto or a shotgun with a magazine extension. If I had to choose one gun for both situations, I'd probably go with a Glock 19 or 26, which would give you 12 to 16 shots.;)

LD45

Geckgo
August 27, 2011, 08:02 AM
I'm confused, the post says CCW but you are talking about home invasions with multiple assailants. These are not the same thing.

as far as caliber vs. capacity??

For the house, that means shotgun vs carbine
for a pistol, it means 9mm vs 45 (usually)

Seeing as how you already have a .38, which will do fine for CCW, consider a rifle and a security system for home defense, and maybe a dog too.

Think about, if you HAVE to fire more than 5 shots... um... how many more do you think you will need and can you squeeze them off quick enough to make a difference in that situation. Maybe training might be a better way to spend the money, but I'm just playing devil's advocate on that one.

Just my two cents, ymmv

hardluk1
August 27, 2011, 08:02 AM
Works well for a lower cost house gun if you have some at home that might need a firearm when alone.

HAY, I buy from wally world!!!!!
Glocks are fine but don't allways fit small worth a poop. I have a glock 17 and a sigma among many others. Guess which my wife shoots. I have reworked the trigger pull to 6 lb's for 4 bucks cost and some time. She likes it. I also payed 289 new from local gun shop.

Loyalist Dave
August 27, 2011, 08:28 AM
Once you have a suitable cartridge, and an accurate firearm to launch it, I'm gonna have to go with proficiency. If you can hit the badguy between the eyes every time with a .22 caliber Walther P22, but can't hit squat with a .45 caliber 1911A1 sporting a drum magazine..., then you need to use the .22 pistol.

Granted that's a grossly overt illustration, but seriously, if you have a tough time hitting your target with a certain handgun, the caliber choice is moot.

Proficiency means not only being able to quickly reload, under stress, as well as clear jams..., it means you have thought about, and even done a walk-through in your dwelling, of how you would defend yourself, where you'd make use of cover, who else in the house you'd need to protect, etc.

LD

mavracer
August 27, 2011, 08:46 AM
Accuracy

357 Terms
August 27, 2011, 08:58 AM
Shot placement! I feel very well armed with my 5 shot sp101 for CC, in a SD situation chances are you are gonna run out of time before you run out of rounds. If your first round hits its mark your need for 15 more is greatly diminished.

Hangingrock
August 27, 2011, 09:57 AM
There are those that talk proficiency/shoot-placement. The problem is the pucker factor which may void all preconceived notions. Staying cool, calm, and collected may or may not occur. In the end the choices we make may not determine the out come and no one promises you tomorrow.

My observation which may or may not be correct is that people walk around mentally fat, dumb, and happy. Random selection/target of opportunity occurs when we are in our biosphere being oblivious to the world around us. This is much like people that pick their noses:what:while driving thinking no one is going to notice their preoccupation.

I’m not getting into the caliber/capacity discourse. I’ve made my selections that I’m comfortable with.

RickMD
August 27, 2011, 10:13 AM
Quite a few years ago I was working in Houston and had some free time on my hands. I walked into a gun shop where a grizzled, old, retired, Texas Ranger was working behind the counter. I told him I was in the market for a 9mm. He gruffly said, "What do you want it for?" I sheepishly told him that I had a 1911 but wanted something with more capacity.

His reply was, "You ever been in a gun fight boy"? I muttered no. He snarled, "If you ever gotta fire more than seven shots in a gun fight, my money says you're a dead man anyway".

I did walk out with a Browning Hi-Power...

481
August 27, 2011, 11:26 AM
Speaking strictly to the question as it relates to individual concealed carry, I'd go with "capacity" over "caliber" since the difference between calibers these days is pretty minimal given the high quality JHP ammunition available to us all should we elect to use it.

I have no problem carrying a 9mm as a "minimum" SD caliber- did it for years as a sworn LEO and never felt "undergunned" since I relied on my training to see me through some very bad experiences.

When it comes right down to it, if I am carrying concealed, I am likely all by myself as I am now retired, have no "back-up" (can't call for it on the radio) and no partner to rely on if "outnumbered" so the more doses of "felon repellent" that my gun (a Glock 17 loaded with a total of 18 rounds) has on board, the better I feel about being on my own. At least one (two is better) extra 17 round magazine is also a "must have", IMO.

As for home defense, the answer is a rifle and the Arsenal SAS M7 is always nearby and loaded with a 30 round mag full of 7.62x39 124 gr. FMJs.

NMGonzo
August 27, 2011, 11:28 AM
Proficiency.
Set and Match.

Close this thread; it's over.

Loosedhorse
August 27, 2011, 12:00 PM
Proficiency? So, proficiency trumps capacity and caliber?

Huh. I take it then you carry a .22 CB single-shot pistol...but are very proficient! :D

I think that even proficiency is aided by good caliber choice, or by good capacity...or both.

R.W.Dale
August 27, 2011, 12:14 PM
Proficiency? So, proficiency trumps capacity and caliber?

Huh. I take it then you carry a .22 CB single-shot pistol...but are very proficient! :D

I think that even proficiency is aided by good caliber choice, or by good capacity...or both.

PROFICIENCY AND ACCURACY TRUMP EVERYTHING

If that's all you can make hits with then yes you'd better carry a 22cb. After all a 22 to the pinky is still more effective than a 45 fired into the wall.


Now in the 21'st century handgun ammo is so good than with similar cartridge classes there really is no longer a debate about which cartridge is better.

32 vs 45 sure there's a difference. But 9mm vs 45? Pfft! There's only one kind of dead


---
- Tapatalk post via IPhone.

mavracer
August 27, 2011, 12:17 PM
Huh. I take it then you carry a .22 CB single-shot pistol...but are very proficient!

Sometimes I don't even carry a gun. proficiency to me includes stuff like situational awareness. the easiest way to survive a gun fight is avoidance. :scrutiny:

brickeyee
August 27, 2011, 12:27 PM
Only hits count, you cannot miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

Rexster
August 27, 2011, 12:51 PM
If all I had was an Airweight J-frame, and liked it, but wanted more ammo capacity, I might want to add a second J-frame, if street carry was the goal. Indeed, I frequently do carry multiple SP101s.

In one's home, where light weight and concealment are not needed, the weapon choice should be based upon one's defensive plan, and the environment. If the plan is to stay in place, and repel intruders, I cannot think of a better weapon than a shotgun, in most environments. If one must move about the home while defending, such as might be important if one must defend others in other parts of the home, the shotgun may not be a good choice, due to length and handling characteristics. (I do search interiors of homes with a shotgun in my hands, as part of a team.)

There is nothing wrong with a large pistol that feeds from a double-stack magazine, if one has the proficiency and self-discipline to use the ammo wisely, to good effect. Fourteen to twenty quick misses is a recipe for disaster, especially if there are unintended targets downrange.

Loosedhorse
August 27, 2011, 01:30 PM
PROFICIENCY AND ACCURACY TRUMP EVERYTHING

If that's all you can make hits with then yes you'd better carry a 22cb. After all a 22 to the pinky...Oh. It wasn't clear to me before that the definition of proficiency and accuracy was the ability (while presumably aiming COM) to hit the pinkie!

That's what I would call broad side of a barn "accuracy." Yeah, I guess that level of proficiency is important--good point! :p:rolleyes:

Now, just limiting the discussion to all those who have attained that high bar of proficiency: which is more important, caliber or capacity?

;):Dsituational awarenessIt's funny, in a way: the OP asks of A and B, which is more important? The question as stated would logically allow three possible answers: A, B, or both are equally important.

But I guess some feel the correct answer is C, or Z...or anything except what the question actually asked about. :D:banghead:

buck460XVR
August 27, 2011, 01:32 PM
Proficiency is paramount....as far as capacity, I go with the "rule of 3 to 5s".



OVER 90% OF GUNFIGHTS, BOTH CIVILIAN & LAW ENFORCEMENT, FOLLOW THE RULE OF "3-TO-5s"

MOST TAKE PLACE AT A DISTANCE OF THREE TO FIVE FEET
THREE TO FIVE ROUNDS ARE DISCHARGED
THEY ARE OVER IN THREE TO FIVE SECONDS

2zulu1
August 27, 2011, 01:33 PM
For IWB CCW I like 1911s in either .45 auto or .38Super, depends if I'm at my place or in town. Square Glock slides rub on my hip bone and become uncomfortable to carry.

Browning Hi-Power is the sleeper for me, more comfortable IWB than the 1911 for extended periods of time, working, sitting or driving.

Having said this, there's always a M686+/6" nearby in the pick-up or bedroom loaded with 158gr JHPs. Home invaders also have to deal with a German Shepherd service dog and whatever else is available. :)

I always like the .22lr vs .45auto comparisons that always seem to be a part of these kind of threads. Personally, I'd take a .45auto high center chest vs a .22lr round that bounces off the skull, YMMV.

Bob

Resist Evil
August 27, 2011, 01:58 PM
For CCW, I prefer caliber over capacity. I use a 1911. To improve my proficiency under stress, I compete.

As for the home, the fear of and preparation for a multi-thug home invasion, to my mind, calls for a rifle or shotgun.

Get training when you can afford it and practice.

mavracer
August 27, 2011, 02:03 PM
it's funny, in a way: The op asks of a and b, which is more important? The question as stated would logically allow three possible answers: A, b, or both are equally important.
d: None of the above

Loosedhorse
August 27, 2011, 02:19 PM
It seems we have replaced logic with mutiple-choice testmanship. I guess it's no surprise.

But no. Again, as stated, this question has only three logical answers. To the extent that there is an additional, "outside the question" answer, it would be: "the question is nonsensical" (as would be the case with, for example, "Which feels smoother: purple or green?").

But nonsensical questions have no answer--not some other answer.

tlatoani
August 27, 2011, 03:29 PM
Green is obviously smoother.

mavracer
August 27, 2011, 03:32 PM
But no. Again, as stated, this question has only three logical answers. To the extent that there is an additional, "outside the question" answer, it would be: "the question is nonsensical" (as would be the case with, for example, "Which feels smoother: purple or green?").

Just as you can't answer
"Which feels smoother: purple or green?"
without knowing what object is purple and what object is green
You can't answer.
"Caliber vs Capacity- What's more valuable in a CCW? "
Without knowing the parameters of the gunfight.

so like I said D: none of the above. because the question as stated is nonsensical.

Rexster
August 27, 2011, 04:09 PM
The OP may have indeed asked an A versus B question, but we do him a disservice if we answer A or B, when it seems that he did not know enough realize that there are vital considerations other than A or B.

The .38 Special is probably enough, especially for a beginner. My wife has a shiny gold-tone badge, investigates death scene, and has an M.D. after her name. She is content with an Airlite snubby loaded with .38+P, though it holds seven rounds, not five. (Yes, one of those buffalo-humped L-frames that did not last very long on the market.)

Whether or not five rounds, plus a rather slow second five, is enough capacity, may be
more difficult to answer, but it probably will be enough, if one is proficient enough, and
calm enough, to make hits.

Any caliber is enough, until it isn't. Any number of cartridges is enough, until it isn't. Proficiency helps ensure that any given cartridge and/or capacity IS enough.

chhodge69
August 27, 2011, 05:19 PM
Without knowing the parameters of the gunfight.
not sure thats even possible in a civilian SD situation... best we can do is an educated guess. see "rule of 3's above"

I think caliber trumps capacity but I'd prefer to have both. It's a subjective balancing act. I would not choose a .45 2-shot derringer over a .38 spl snubby revolver, but I WOULD take a 4-shot 12ga over any handgun in any capacity. And I can't even tell you why.... go figure.

Old krow
August 27, 2011, 06:23 PM
Personally I would take whichever I was the best with. Since that wasn't really the question, I'll assume ceteris paribus and say that any of the common caliber will have enough power. After that, I'd go for the most that I could carry comfortably.

You've obviously been watching the crime trends in your area. Before the increase in the number of assailants you trusted a .38 spl to protect you? Given that there isn't all that much difference in a 9mm and a .38 spl I'd think that the "power" part of the equation has already been solved. Any 9mm (assuming a reliable gun and good ammo) with a higher capacity would be at a minimum an increase in capacity while maintaining nearly the same power. In a semi-auto that's where I would set my lower threshold... personally.

GLOOB
August 27, 2011, 06:29 PM
+! Accuracy! I'd rather have a 5 shot 32SW revolver with a good trigger than a 50 shot LCP.

JohnBiltz
August 27, 2011, 07:27 PM
I've got a minimum floor to both capacity and caliber where I'm not going below. I've got a comfort zone in a range for both where I'm comfortable carrying. I'm not worried about exceeding my comfort zone for every day carry. That would be for when I go looking for trouble and I don't do that since Uncle Sam put me out to pasture. The floor is .380 with 7 rounds and either a spare magazine or even better another .380 with 7 rounds. I've never carried at the floor but if I needed to I would do it. My comfort zone is 10-13 rounds of 9 mm. With or without a spare magazine.

For home defense. I favor caliber, give me a shotgun if I have a choice. Five in the tube and another five on the stock.

Aiko492
August 27, 2011, 10:00 PM
Would be good to set up a poll maybe to analyze your question. In CC, with an average shooter (not LEO or military) I am voting capacity. Those with more training and experience... caliber.

Loosedhorse
August 27, 2011, 10:24 PM
Just as you can't answer
"Which feels smoother: purple or green?"
without knowing what object is purple and what object is green
You can't answer.
"Caliber vs Capacity- What's more valuable in a CCW? "
Without knowing the parameters of the gunfight.No. I find your response purposefully obtuse--and inaccurate.

Purple and green have no inherent property of smoothness or nonsmoothness.

Caliber and capacity both have inherent value in a gunfight; the question was, what is their comparative value for CCW. (Accuracy, proficiency, situational awareness, and a thousand other things also have inherent value in a gunfight; but the OP asked about the relative value of just two of those. A comparison.)The OP may have indeed asked an A versus B question, but we do him a disservice if we answer A or B, when it seems that he did not know enough realize that there are vital considerations other than A or B.But we don't do him a disservice by assuming his ignorance? Okay.

But I do see your point. Fair enough.

oldfool
August 27, 2011, 10:51 PM
Proficiency.
yes, that

1st most important is your 1st shot
2nd most important is your 2nd shot
3rd most important is your 3rd shot
both caliber and capacity rank way down the list from that

but... for those who insist it actually matters...
capacity matters more than caliber if you miss fast enough and often enough
caliber matters more if you can manage only one hit out of 15 shots, assuming the target stands still long enough

WinThePennant
August 27, 2011, 11:43 PM
I can understand why he'd ask the question the way he did. It sounds like he's probably going to carry his concealed carry gun around in the house, just in case some folks decide to drop in unannounced. Home invasions tend to be unannounced and don't give you enough time to find your way to a shotgun or rifle, so your defense gun against home invasion is likely to be the one you already have on your person.

I'd go with either a Kel-Tec PF9 or Sig Sauer P290. Have an extra mag, just in case.

mavracer
August 28, 2011, 12:08 AM
No. I find your response purposefully obtuse--and inaccurate.
If my answer "that you can't possibly know how many or how powerful round or rounds will be needed" is inaccurate. Then by all means let us know what the correct answer is.
Caliber and capacity both have inherent value in a gunfight
Of course you can't quantify those values without applying parameters to the gunfight. Without parameters they're values are as meaningless as purple and green textures' are with no object to apply them to.

Breakmyfootoff
August 28, 2011, 05:18 AM
OVER 90% OF GUNFIGHTS, BOTH CIVILIAN & LAW ENFORCEMENT, FOLLOW THE RULE OF "3-TO-5s"

MOST TAKE PLACE AT A DISTANCE OF THREE TO FIVE FEET
THREE TO FIVE ROUNDS ARE DISCHARGED
THEY ARE OVER IN THREE TO FIVE SECONDS

Thats all fine and dandy, unless you just happen to be in a gunfight that falls under the other 10%. When I consider a gun for CC there is a checklist that I use, in order of importance to me.

#1 Reliability - All the expertise in the world is worthless if the gun doesnt function properly.

#2 Capacity - 10 rounds minimum, or more depending on the season and concealment clothing.

#3 Caliber - Must be a "service caliber" (9mm, .40, or .45)

Once I have a gun that fills those requirements, I practice with it, a lot. I consider those three calibers to be pretty close in effectiveness, so I usually go with the 9mm since it typically offers greater capacity, and cheaper practice ammo. If I ever have to use my gun in self defense and I only need 2 shots, thats fine, there is absolutely no negative to having 8 to 13 rounds left over that weren't needed. On the other hand, if I only had 5 rounds and somehow needed 6 or 7, the results could be really bad. There is no rule against being proficient AND carrying a high capacity gun.

To sum it up as an answer to the OP's question, I favor capacity over caliber (as long as its one of those 3 calibers), and I still choose to be proficient with my weapon.

Loosedhorse
August 28, 2011, 07:40 AM
If my answer "that you can't possibly know how many or how powerful round or rounds will be needed" is inaccurate. Again, purposefully obtuse. As you well know, your inaccuracy lies in the simple fact that an "A or B" question does not have C as an answer option. Simple logic.

However, your statement above seems to indicate that you do think that both powerful caliber and sizeable capacity could be important. Now you just have to choose one, or both--and you will have actually answered the posed question, instead of answering a different one. :D

Since it's clear you know what I've said, but have no intention of actually answering the OP's original question, there is no need for me to point out your refusal again. Without parameters they're values are as meaningless as purple and green textures' are with no object to apply them to.Untrue, again. Powerful caliber and sizeable capacity have inherent value in a gunfight; of course the details of a gunfight in the future cannot be known to you (or you'd just avoid it), but it is hard to imagine prudent planning that would favor, as I said as an example, depending on a .22 CB single-shot.

Parameter that. ;)

beatledog7
August 28, 2011, 08:03 AM
Caliber vs. Capacity? A lot of posters talked about proficiency trumping both, and I agree.

However, the single best thing to have for CCW is none of those; it's good judgement.

Almost every self defense scenario you can think of can be managed without unholstering. We all have the responsibility to remember that drawing and firing are always the last resorts to resolving a situation.

Lawdawg45
August 28, 2011, 08:27 AM
Proficiency is paramount....as far as capacity, I go with the "rule of 3 to 5s".



Quote:
OVER 90% OF GUNFIGHTS, BOTH CIVILIAN & LAW ENFORCEMENT, FOLLOW THE RULE OF "3-TO-5s"

MOST TAKE PLACE AT A DISTANCE OF THREE TO FIVE FEET
THREE TO FIVE ROUNDS ARE DISCHARGED
THEY ARE OVER IN THREE TO FIVE SECONDS


The problem is that even the FBI admits this trend is disappearing with the high capacity weapons of today, coupled with multiple suspects engaging victims. Having a 5 shot revolver with no reloads presents a problem with either one suspect with a 15 shot 9mm, or a scenario with multiple suspects, especially understanding that in a real gunfight accuracy drops by as much as 50% (LEO & civilian alike). 5 shots divided between 3 suspects under fire means you might hit 2 of them with a single round.........not good odds in my book!:uhoh:

mavracer
August 28, 2011, 08:48 AM
Untrue, again. Powerful caliber and sizeable capacity have inherent value in a gunfight; of course the details of a gunfight in the future cannot be known to you (or you'd just avoid it), but it is hard to imagine prudent planning that would favor, as I said as an example, depending on a .22 CB single-shot.

Parameter that.

If Zen Budda Master with the single-shot .22 cb hits the brainpan of Bubba first. Then 30 rounds of uber magnum ammo in Bubba's gun have zero value to person B.
As to answering OPs question
Mindset>Skillset>Toolset in that order, always in that order. If the proper Mindset and Skillset were attained you wouldn't ask what tools are needed.

Since it's clear you know what I've said, but have no intention of actually answering the OP's original question, there is no need for me to point out your refusal again.

Have you actually read your first mumbo jumbo answer.
Both so maybe you should pick something in the middle unless you want more power

Jonah71
August 28, 2011, 09:05 AM
Proficiency.
AMEN!!

danez71
August 28, 2011, 09:46 AM
It's funny, in a way: the OP asks of A and B, which is more important? The question as stated would logically allow three possible answers: A, B, or both are equally important.

But I guess some feel the correct answer is C, or Z...or anything except what the question actually asked about

No kidding. This thread is funny.

Its like asking if you like 1 double cheese burger or 2 single cheese burgers in your happy meal.

While there really isnt a right answer as its a personal choice based on a lot of things, rather than help the OP make up his own mind for what suits the OP best, the common theme in the replies seem to be to inform the OP that the question isnt even valid.

The OP is simply asking which line of thought is more popular... lean toward bigger caliber or lean toward larger capacity for a CCW type gun.

OP, my answer is:

The most rounds of the biggest caliber that you shoot well

That wasnt so hard.

mavracer
August 28, 2011, 10:16 AM
5 shots divided between 3 suspects under fire means you might hit 2 of them with a single round.........not good odds in my book!
A: CCW is not LEO. CCWers don't deal with suspects.
B: 3 to 1 is not good odds if there's 20 rounds in your gun.
C: Going offensive and trying to get lead in all 3 is IMHO pressing bad tactics in a bad position. :rolleyes:
The most rounds of the biggest caliber that you shoot well

That wasnt so hard.

But I can't find a IWB holster for this :banghead:
http://www.stiguns.com/guns/TruBorGM/images/TruBorGMBlue_Main.jpg

oldfool
August 28, 2011, 10:19 AM
5 shots divided between 3 suspects under fire means you might hit 2 of them with a single round...
I agree with everything Lawdawg45 said there

but LEOs are obliged to kick in drug house doors, they best not do that with only 5 to 7 rounds, and they prefer to do it with a team wearing vests and carrying carbines, not One Riot One Ranger

average-joe me, one ranger, home alone with my 15 round hi-cap 10MM and two spare mags, 3 or more bangers kick in my door without warning, all heavily armed with hi-cap whiznbangers, fact is I might get one or two, but I am going to go down before I can dump 5 to 7 rounds, much less 15.. and absent CNS hits, the guys I hit are real likely to crawl away or be carried out by their shootin' buddies.

civilian self defense on the street or at home is not Under Siege, and will not be unless America turns into a middle east combat zone

If you really think you against the many "Last man Standing" movie scenario applies to you, fork up the bucks for a full auto license and all that goes with, accessorized with kevlar and night vision googles

Geckgo
August 28, 2011, 10:26 AM
the OP seemed to be asking about a CCW caliber for home defense. Home defense is not a CCW caliber, IMO. my 45 sits on the nightstand with two underloaded mags. 10 bullets in each 13rnd mag. Why?? because I feel like it and I highly doubt that I'd ever get to number 11 defending myself with a pistol. If I do, then I have an extra mag.

We are not trying to call the op ignorant, just saying that he already has a good CCW and if he's comfortable with it and wants a gun for better home defense, most of us would rather pick up a shotgun or a rifle.

oldfool
August 28, 2011, 10:32 AM
my 45 sits on the nightstand with two underloaded mags.
good choice

but I settle for just a 6" 357 mag revolver, six in cylinder, 38+p JHP
one on my nightstand... and one on her nightstand ;)

Bob72
August 28, 2011, 10:47 AM
Yesterday fired at three gallon water filled jugs w/380 ( 7 rnds) loaded w/magsafe.and.gold dot jhp..both ruptured the hell out of the jugs.
Then fired jhp 9mm (17 rnds) and again ruptured the jugs... Have gone from missing a 6 inch circle at 30 ft to firing 3 inch groups. Practice and situational awareness. Figured both 'small' calibers will work if I hit the bad guys. Am working on jams and magazine exchanges now. We, wife and I are targets at 72 and 53 with disabilities. So, practice, practice, practice and hope that I never have to use it.

Lawdawg45
August 28, 2011, 10:47 AM
"A: CCW is not LEO. CCWers don't deal with suspects."

Really Mav? Pure semantics my friend. Does it really matter the label of an individual or individuals that have weapons pointed at you or your family?;)

LD45

mavracer
August 28, 2011, 11:20 AM
Really Mav? Pure semantics my friend. Does it really matter the label of an individual or individuals that have weapons pointed at you or your family?
the kettle is black

Really Lawdog? Pure semantics my friend. Does number of rounds in your gun really matter when an individual or individuals already have weapons pointed at you or your family?

481
August 28, 2011, 12:44 PM
Really Mav? Pure semantics my friend. Does it really matter the label of an individual or individuals that have weapons pointed at you or your family?

Really Lawdog? Pure semantics my friend. Does number of rounds in your gun really matter when an individual or individuals already have weapons pointed at you or your family?

Yes, pure semantics. Lawdawg45 pointed out that the label one applies to one's assailant(s) is a (rightfully) semantic distinction in regards to the statement that you made above

A. CCW is not LEO. CCWers don't deal with suspects.


and in response you changed the topic of the discussion mid-course to one of, "Does [the] number of rounds in your gun really matter when..." when he explained as quoted below:

Does number of rounds in your gun really matter when an individual or individuals already have weapons pointed at you or your family?


It is quite evident that you are being intentionally obtuse.

Lighten up. :D

mavracer
August 28, 2011, 01:04 PM
It is quite evident that you are being intentionally obtuse.

Yes I guess I am being obtuse. however no more obtuse than arguing the semantics of what we call BGs instead of discusing the error in tactics of thinking 5 rounds isn't enough to get lead into 3 BGs. Because ultimatly if the 3 BGs already have guns pointed at you and your family you have already lost. :banghead:

Please remember I'm not the one who equated "3 suspects" to "an individual or individuals already have weapons pointed at you or your family"

Loosedhorse
August 28, 2011, 01:07 PM
Have you actually read your first mumbo jumbo answer.
"Both so maybe you should pick something in the middle unless you want more power" So, now you have stooped to lying. Your quote above is meant to suggest that I said the words in quotes...but I did not.As to answering OPs question
Mindset>Skillset>Toolset in that order, always in that order.Oh, I get it: if someone asks any equipment question, you always answer "Mindset>Skillset>Toolset". To both imply that they didn't know that (absent your graciously supplying a portion of your superior knowledge), and to just generally be no help at all. Great.It is quite evident that you are being intentionally obtuse.Yes I guess I am being obtuse.+1. And now we can add dishonest.

dhancock
August 28, 2011, 01:40 PM
Hmmmm.

It sounds like a religious war here.

Here are a few thoughts:


The original question was about CCW firearms.
Large capacity generally means double-stack and less concealability.
The statistics I have read concerning actual firefights involving trained police officers show a fairly low hit ratio to shots fired. This might argue in favor of large capacity. Or better training....
Consider also the weight and bulk of two additional magazines (a fairly standard suggestion whether talking about autoloaders or revolvers)
A J-frame is as wide as most double-stacked autoloaders, but only at one point. This is arguably easier to conceal.


As for training, I have never been in a fire fight, even when I served as a police officer. Shooting at silhouettes at 7 yards makes me familiar with the firearm but cannot prepare me for what will happen in the event that I need to call upon those skills to save my life or that of another. And I hope I never have to find out.

Bottom line (at least for me): I will go with the best compromise for me, which is a J-frame.

Thompsoncustom
August 28, 2011, 01:52 PM
I would say just get a Eaa witness or glock in 10mm that way you have both. But then again if you can't hit anything with it your better off using something you can.

mavracer
August 28, 2011, 02:09 PM
So, now you have stooped to lying. Your quote above is meant to suggest that I said the words in quotes...but I did not.
Easy there. I just don't know where the summation mark key is. so ignorant maybe but not a lier.

taters123
August 28, 2011, 02:14 PM
For home defence a glock 20 with a light and laser.

For ccw a glock 36

For cleaning these glocks. Prolix

amazon shooter
August 28, 2011, 02:21 PM
A lot has been said about what one needs for self defense when the forces of darkness decend upon you. There are threads and threads about stopping power, about how much ammo you should have, etc.

Here is a true story to consider. It happened about 20 years ago, here, in the Amazon. Three men with single-shot shotguns (16 ga.) decided to rob and probably kill a gringo while he was sleeping one night. They didn't know the gringo had a 5-shot .38 special Chief's Special. It was a shootout in the bedroom at point blank range and it only took a few seconds before both sides fired all their shots. Before the smoke reached the ceiling, two BGs were dead and one BG wounded, who fled the scene. The gringo, was wounded and nearly bled to death, but recovered in the hospital with only a few missing fingers.

When it happens, it's going down fast and violent - you will be dead or dying in a few seconds or on your way to the hospital with life threatening wounds and if you are very lucky, you may walk away from it without a scratch.

Redneck with a 40
August 28, 2011, 02:36 PM
I'd much rather have 17 or 18 rounds of 9mm and be a proficient shooter, versus only having 7 or 8 rounds of 45 acp. The size of the gun is the same, so why not, capacity can never hurt.

Lawdawg45
August 28, 2011, 02:54 PM
"Yes I guess I am being obtuse. however no more obtuse than arguing the semantics of what we call BGs instead of discusing the error in tactics of thinking 5 rounds isn't enough to get lead into 3 BGs. Because ultimatly if the 3 BGs already have guns pointed at you and your family you have already lost."

I understand we're coming at this from 2 different angles, you being a factory worker and me being a retired LEO, but I've personally seen the aftermath of many a home invasion with multiple aggressors (new term for you!), and I've also been in a firefight. The documented FBI data doesn't lie, accuracy for civilian and LEO alike can drop as much as 50%, and if you're standing there with your 5 shot revolver, the best case scenario is that you might hit 2 of them with one round, hence why capacity is paramount. The days of Mayberry are long gone unfortunately.:(

LD45

mavracer
August 28, 2011, 04:35 PM
The documented FBI data doesn't lie, accuracy for civilian and LEO alike can drop as much as 50%, and if you're standing there with your 5 shot revolver, the best case scenario is that you might hit 2 of them with one round, hence why capacity is paramount.
Well since the FBI data don't lie. I'm better off with a 5 shot revolver than you are with a 15 shot auto. Because according to their statistics I'll have about 80% hits 4 for 5 where as LEO over all is about 20% hits 3/15.
BTW quite a few factory workers are former military and LEO.;)

Loosedhorse
August 28, 2011, 04:48 PM
Easy there killer. I just don't know where the summation mark key is. so ignorant maybe but not a lier.Facile excuse for your lie. If you wanted to "rephrase" my answer, you could have made it clear that you were doing so, instead of putting it in quotes--or are you claiming ignorance regarding what quotation marks mean? A self-defense savant, but a little light on punctuation? :rolleyes:

Your whole line of "argument" has been false, implying that if one asks an "equipment" question, one must be ignoring all other important factors.

Oh, and since you have decided to call me "killer," rather than aplogize for your dishonesty, I will from here on refer to you as "liar." Liar.

Mike1234567
August 28, 2011, 04:58 PM
I'm not directing this at ANYONE but, ya know, I was very VERY happy to get away from all the "B-wording" when I divorced my ex. TG I can simply ignore all of the "B-wording" in forums.:D

Lawdawg45
August 28, 2011, 05:38 PM
"Well since the FBI data don't lie. I'm better off with a 5 shot revolver than you are with a 15 shot auto. Because according to their statistics I'll have about 80% hits 4 for 5 where as LEO over all is about 20% hits 3/15."

Inventive math skills there, and I'd like to see a link to your 20% hit rate for LEO's. Don't get me wrong, if you feel confident and secure with 5 shots from a revolver have at it, but I would refrain from making a public recommendation, especially to new, inexperienced shooters.;)

LD45

mavracer
August 28, 2011, 06:38 PM
this took about 2 minutes to find from a CBS report
A confidential NYPD report indicates an increase in every category of shots fired on the job, accompanied by a disturbing drop in accuracy.

Of 276 police bullets fired in gunfights in 2005 only 23 found their target -- an 8 percent accuracy rate. Comparing the trend to the year before we see gunfight bullet volume up 200 percent, while the accuracy has deteriorated significantly.
and another
The source of this article is The Virginia Coalition of Police & Deputy Sherrifs.

In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be
determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 38%
3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5%
7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4%

In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be
determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

Less than 3 yards ..... 28%
3 yards to 7 yards .... 11%
7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%

orionengnr
August 28, 2011, 10:26 PM
First off, I would advise a few posters to review the rules they agreed to abide by when they joined this forum. To wit--attack the argument, not the individual.

Okay, back on topic.

IMHO, there is no "right" answer. There is only a "right for me" answer.

For me, I carry what I shoot best (which is either a 1911 or an S&W revolver, usually an N-frame), in a cartridge in which I have confidence (.45 acp/10mm/.for semi auto pistols and 45LC/.41 Mag for revolvers).

Note that none of them has a surfeit of capacity. If I have three or more people shooting at me, I accept the fact that my chances of prevailing are....ah... somewhat diminished. Hell, how many people go 1v2 and come out ahead?

On the other hand, I do have some measure of confidence that I can shoot my chosen platforms reasonably well, and the cartridges I have chosen are reasonably effective if I do my part.

I believe that I have accounted for the variables as best I can.

YMMV.

Art Eatman
August 28, 2011, 10:26 PM
This thread reminds me of a plane landing in Vegas on a hot, windy summer day. Every now and then it touches down and finally stays there.

Way too many posts in this thread are nothing but off-topic silly squabbling and it sorta looks like some of the egos never touch down at all.

Enuf.

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