If New Handgun Caliber is Developed These Days... Is It Possible to be Adapted?


PDA






LibraPMC
August 27, 2011, 09:25 AM
If new handgun round for self defense in terms of average civilian and LE Military use is developed, can it be popular and adapted in these times?

Just like 40S&W and 357 Sig round became adapted although it was developed few decades ago, maybe new round might appear in the market. If that happens do you think people will adapt it eventually or are there already enough? No caliber war please

Thanks:D

If you enjoyed reading about "If New Handgun Caliber is Developed These Days... Is It Possible to be Adapted?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
GCBurner
August 27, 2011, 10:09 AM
People picked up on the .40 S&W, and the FN 5.7mm seems to have a growing following. A lot depends on the gun it's offered in, I think.

hmphargh
August 27, 2011, 11:10 AM
People picked up on the .40 S&W, and the FN 5.7mm seems to have a growing following. A lot depends on the gun it's offered in, I think.
Agreed. I think it also helps if major brands that sell in huge volume, to military/police adopt the new round. 5.7 is growing, but there aren't enough platforms for it to make it really take off.

bergmen
August 27, 2011, 11:15 AM
I've got enough calibers. I don't need anymore. Really.

Dan

InkEd
August 27, 2011, 11:20 AM
It is difficult to launch a new caliber. It has to fill a niche that isn't covered by existing cartridges in the market.

The .40 has been accepted because of law enforcement contracts. The 5.7FN and.357SIG have small followings too. The .327 looks like it is going to fail as a popular choice.

NMGonzo
August 27, 2011, 11:40 AM
I don't think that a major caliber is going to be developed.

9mm is going to be as it is now the dominant round for the market since most of the world uses it, it does an OK job, and it is produced in large enough quantities to be relatively inexpensive compared to everything else.

DWFan
August 27, 2011, 12:17 PM
Besides trying to fill a niche and generate a following, you have to make components and ammo readily available. That's been the .327's biggest failing.

mavracer
August 27, 2011, 12:30 PM
I seriously doubt it. The 40 S&W is the only truely successful cartridge developed in the last 50 years. It's the only one that's suplanted the old standbys in the top 5 handgun rounds in terms of sales.

Snowbandit
August 27, 2011, 12:36 PM
You would have to fill in a gap somewhere and I don't really see any. The 40 S&W managed to get adopted by law enforcement but, with all the improvements in the 9MM some departments are returning to it. If that happens in mass even the popular 40's long term survival could be in jeopardy.

Mike J
August 27, 2011, 02:04 PM
How often do you see or hear about .45 GAP? I think you could develop a new caliber but getting anyone to adopt it would be an uphill battle.

scythefwd
August 27, 2011, 05:02 PM
do you mean adopted? I'm still asking.. "Adapted to what?"

I've adopted the .40 S&W.

JohnBiltz
August 27, 2011, 10:30 PM
I'd say the secret to success is wide adoption by someone who counts. The FBI made the .40. The military made .223 and if you go far back enough .45, 30.06, and 7.62. Wow, didn't realize it as I wrote that, the military seems the biggest reason a cartridge takes off or not. If the military decided tomorrow that all its pistols would be chambered in .45 GAP or .357 Sig it would gain popularity. The same thing if it decided to chamber its rifle in 6.5 or 6.8. A lot of that is wannabes wanna be and it drives down cost of ammo.

waidmann
August 27, 2011, 11:54 PM
The niche and being "adopted" are together the key. Until the .40 S&W there were significant attempts to introduce a .40/.41 offering: .41 Colt, .38-40 WCF, .41 Rem. Mag., .41 AE, 10mm. Bridging the gap between .38/9mm and .44/.45 took a while didn't it?

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 28, 2011, 12:04 AM
I have thought about taking a .223 casing and shortening it to make something like a 5.7 x 28 but be short enough that it could be chambered in any 9mm.

DWFan
August 28, 2011, 03:13 AM
FIVETWOSEVEN, look at the .22 Reed Express. Very similar to what you propose.
http://www.reedsammo.com/-.html

pazz
August 28, 2011, 09:21 AM
The 8mm will someday be developed since it's all about capacity and shot placement :D

On a serious note, I don't see any new ones coming down the line. I think the trend will be to develop new guns like what Kel-Tec is doing with their shotgun and PMR-30

LibraPMC
August 28, 2011, 09:30 AM
The 8mm will someday be developed since it's all about capacity and shot placement :D

On a serious note, I don't see any new ones coming down the line. I think the trend will be to develop new guns like what Kel-Tec is doing with their shotgun and PMR-30

Yup, I think all gaps are filled by now and it's all about guns that fit these caliber...

Caliper_RWVA
August 28, 2011, 11:13 AM
Possible? Yes. Likely? Not very. I can find .38, .357, 9mm and .45 brass aplenty at local ranges and matches. Some .40 as it has become popular. Have only seen a very few .357 SIG. Never seen any 10mm brass left.

I'm sticking with 9mm and .45. Pretty much covers things as far as semi auto is concerned. G/f has .357 and .44 to cover the revolver side of things. Although I still want a 10mm handgun...

CraigC
August 28, 2011, 12:23 PM
It would be uphill all the way. Shooters, as a whole, tend to be rather cynical and closed-minded about anything new. As if the whole thing was just a scheme to rid them of their money and that they were required to purchase or face eternal damnation. Just look at all the immediate negativity surrounding the introduction of the .327Federal. Never stood a chance.

ccsniper
August 28, 2011, 12:39 PM
Maybe, if it has the knockdown power of a 44 mag, the recoil of a .22, the capacity of the 9mm and the cost of BB's, the cartridge might have a fighting chance. Other than that, not likely. The round would have to offer a significantly great advantage in order to make it in today's market.

Kliegl
August 28, 2011, 01:44 PM
10mm is too balls-out awesome to be adopted by the unwashed masses.

DNS
August 28, 2011, 04:53 PM
Danny Vermin special -

"Its an 88 magnum. It shoots through schools!".

Shadow 7D
August 28, 2011, 07:26 PM
Look at the history of new cartaridges, either they are introduced by the major gun makers for a new line of rifles or they are developed by the major makers for the CONTRACT market, 40 took off cause the FBI was pushing 10mm and S&W made a bastardized compromise round, more cap than 45, more 'power' than 9 and more shootable than 10....

and so a legend was born.

as for 5.7 I'm kinda in the 'its a specialty round' lots of little AP, it'll kill you but... I seriously see it as just a MARKETING success, all the 'taki kool' guys getting neutered PS90's

I mean, really what does it do, that something like Fireball or even a .22 hornet hadn't already done?

FIVETWOSEVEN
August 28, 2011, 07:38 PM
FIVETWOSEVEN, look at the .22 Reed Express. Very similar to what you propose.

Sorta but not quite, I was thinking about taking the same measurements of a .223 but shortening it.

pendennis
August 28, 2011, 08:44 PM
While the .40 S&W is a compromise, it proved superior to the 10mm in the accuracy department. The original 10mm guns weren't as accurate as hoped.

It seems (to me anyway) that the .357 Sig is the answer to an unasked question.

There are still lots of .357 magnum revolvers out there, and they aren't going away anytime soon.

The .327 Federal magnum doesn't appear to be going anywhere anytime soon. That's the latest one, and it doesn't appear to have gained much, if any, traction.

The next one will have to be a quantum leap. It will need to combine all the ground breaking qualities of the .357 magnum, .44 magnum, .40 S&W, and the .45 ACP, without requiring a lot of new pistol/revolver tooling.

FLAvalanche
August 28, 2011, 09:13 PM
How often do you see or hear about .45 GAP? I think you could develop a new caliber but getting anyone to adopt it would be an uphill battle.
The problem with the GAP is that it had to overcome the .45 ACP "John By-God Browning" don't mess with the .45 crowd.

The GAP did to .45 ACP what .308 did to .30-06. It gave similiar performance out of a smaller package. In every other aspect in the world, this is what progress basically is.

If the 1911 was never chambered in .45 ACP and didn't have such a loyal, and sometimes snooty following the GAP would have flourished. Two of the three top pistols at the time were chambered in GAP (Glock and XD) and it still failed.

Why? Because everyone said it fixed a problem that didn't exist.

Well, the .308 fixed a problem that didn't exist too and look at it's popularity.

ccsniper
August 28, 2011, 10:48 PM
I have always rooted for the underdog, so when the .327 came out I was really hoping for it to make it. Same with the GAP, I always wanted to see it aspire to greatness. But all the companies that made guns in GAP have now discontinued them, at least in America.

Sam Cade
August 28, 2011, 11:10 PM
Sorta but not quite, I was thinking about taking the same measurements of a .223 but shortening it.

That would be identical to the .22 Reed.


Base diameter of a 5.56 is 9.6 mm, vs the 9.7 mm of a 7.62x25.

gyvel
August 28, 2011, 11:13 PM
Let's bring back the 9.8 mm Colt.:D There's already a platform for it.

Ben86
August 29, 2011, 10:59 PM
I think you must mean ADOPTED.

If it fills a popular niche not yet filled it could work. The problem is that just about every niche is filled. These days with so many cartridges being adapted to many different sizes and styles of guns, and with modern ammo design bringing the capability of the cartridges closer together, even less calibers are needed IMO. For instance, I could have only 9mm and be perfectly happy. For a full size gun I have my M&P9, compact pocket gun= PM9. My handgun niches can be filled with one caliber that is already in existence and plentiful.

Dave P.
August 29, 2011, 11:22 PM
I could see it happening IF ( a real BIG IF ) there was some major advance in
powders/propellents, maybe launch a bullet with 1/2 the present case size.
Maybe somebody can build a 8.5mm rimfire platform with rounds costing
8-10 cents each.
Tech changes, someday something new will dominate.
Dave

scythefwd
August 30, 2011, 05:25 AM
Why? Because everyone said it fixed a problem that didn't exist.

Well, the .308 fixed a problem that didn't exist too and look at it's popularity.

FLAvalanche - The .308 was designed with the purpose of allowing a soldier to carry more ammo into battle without adding any more weight. There were 2 goals, to duplicate the performance of the .30-06 (which it failed at but came very close) and to allow for more ammo in the same space and weight (which it did do).

WardenWolf
August 30, 2011, 06:35 AM
FLAvalanche - The .308 was designed with the purpose of allowing a soldier to carry more ammo into battle without adding any more weight. There were 2 goals, to duplicate the performance of the .30-06 (which it failed at but came very close) and to allow for more ammo in the same space and weight (which it did do).

They were specifically trying to duplicate the performance of the M1 Garand's loading of the .30-06, which was an obsolete World War I-era loading. The Garand required this loading because of its pressure curve, and using any other .30-06 ammo would result in a bent operating rod (as Garand owners know well). The .308 did indeed reach equivalency with this load, and a number of post-war Garands and the M-14 were chambered for it.

Regarding pistol cartridges, I think we're long overdue for another tapered handgun round. The only real tapered handgun cartridge out there is the 7.62x25 Tokarev round. Obviously, a tapered cartridge has some real advantages in terms of velocity and feeding reliability. They haven't been too popular primarily because of the idea that "bigger is better" with regards to bullet diameter, and a tapered cartridge obviously reduces the bullet size. But there's some definite possibilities if you have, say, a .45 case necked down to .40 or .38.

scythefwd
August 30, 2011, 07:11 AM
Warden, I don't have any load data for a 168gr bullet moving out at 2700 fps for a .308. I am a garand owner and am full aware of the issues with it.

I'd love to see a 45-40 or 45-38 handgun cartridge. Maybe it can be called the 357 sig maximum :)

I stand corrected, hodgdon has a few MAX loads that are right there. I also only am able to find load data for a 168gr pill at 2600 fps, so my memory was faulty on two accounts.

AirForceShooter
August 30, 2011, 07:55 AM
Just look at the .327.
t should have been a barn burner for CCW sales.

In 2 years it's dying.

AFS

Tallinar
August 30, 2011, 09:04 AM
I don't think we'll see the "next great cartridge" until there's some sort of major breakthrough in gun design and propellant technology that allows an increase in power with a decrease in recoil and component cost; and can be made readily available.

Seems to me that we've done about all we can with the modern blow-back/gas-powered automatic and revolver designs. The .40 S&W and .327 magnum are simply "in-between" flavors of things that already existed.

That's just me though. I'm sure similar things were said before smokeless powder. ;)

harmon rabb
August 30, 2011, 09:27 AM
It would be uphill all the way. Shooters, as a whole, tend to be rather cynical and closed-minded about anything new. As if the whole thing was just a scheme to rid them of their money and that they were required to purchase or face eternal damnation. Just look at all the immediate negativity surrounding the introduction of the .327Federal. Never stood a chance.
The .327 was marketed stupidly as a hunting round.

How it should have been marketed was as a way to get another round in your snubbie, yet maintain the same ballistics. (realistically, how many actually carry true .357 loads in a snub? not many. the .327 can match ballistics of any lighter .357 load on down).

Ben86
August 30, 2011, 09:40 AM
(realistically, how many actually carry true .357 loads in a snub? not many. the .327 can match ballistics of any lighter .357 load on down).

In energy numbers, but it's still a smaller bullet. I think that's what killed it.

CraigC
August 30, 2011, 10:12 AM
The .327 was marketed stupidly as a hunting round.

How it should have been marketed was as a way to get another round in your snubbie, yet maintain the same ballistics. (realistically, how many actually carry true .357 loads in a snub? not many. the .327 can match ballistics of any lighter .357 load on down).
No, it was marketed as a self defense round. What was markedly absent was any marketing of any kind as a hunting round. What else is missing is a factory Single Six that chambers the round. Which is sad because all they need is a longer cylinder in the existing frame window. What we also need is a target sighted K-frame, which is all ready to go without any modification. For small game and varmints, there would be NO better hunting sixgun package. Unfortunately, they don't exist outside the realm of custom gunsmithing. Which is one huge reason why folks didn't take to it. That is the sad part.

pendennis
August 30, 2011, 10:32 AM
S&W did re-introduce the .32 caliber in the Model 16. In 1989 they rechambered the Model 16 into the .32 H&R magnum. This only lasted until 1993, when the revolver was discontinued.

Zundfolge
August 30, 2011, 10:52 AM
i think we're long overdue for another tapered handgun round. The only real tapered handgun cartridge out there is the 7.62x25 tokarev round.

.357sig?


I'm just disappointed that the .224BOZ (or even .223Timbs) never took off :p

Prosser
August 30, 2011, 04:52 PM
Well, we do have some new calibers that have been adopted.
500 S&W, .500JRH, .500WE, though not by a lot of folks.
.475 Linebaugh and .500 Linebaugh as well.

Gary Reeder has done a bunch of big cases, like .475 Linebaugh, or .45 Colt necked down, IIRC. The hunting guys seem to settle on .375 for their hand cannons. I've always wondered if a pistol cartridge, designed to use the 220-300 grain .375" bullets might not be a great six gun cartridge. Take a .500JRH case, that's the 1.4" version of the S&W 500, and neck it down to .375".

That would give you the rifle bullets for wandering in Alaska, and penetration.
You would then also be able to load heavy hollow points, say 250-300 grains that would have excellent penetration and expansion, giving you both an explosive expansion to a large size, and a long, cylindrical wound channel.

To make that work in an auto pistol it would need a 10MM length cartridge at least, and, it might have to be tapered.

That's the only real gap I can see in current rounds offered, and, frankly, it's probably to close to the .40's to fly.

Since the military drives so much of this stuff, I can't help but think a pistol in a rifle diameter would be the way to go. .223" pistol calibers? I'm surprised .308" caliber pistols aren't more popular. The perfect African combination:
.375" revolver cartridge, along with .375 H&H.

mdauben
August 30, 2011, 06:29 PM
IMHO, I don't see another major handgun caliber coming along unless we see a radical change in firearms technology (caseless ammo, etc.). The last big success was probably the .40S&W, which fill a percieved role between the 9mm and the .45ACP. The subsequent new SD rounds (.357SIG, 5.7mm, .32MAG, .45GAP) all seem to be destined to be "niche" or "specialty" rounds that only gain acceptance from people who want something different, as they don't really do anything that an existing round can already do. The big handgun rounds (.454, .475, .500) fill a role, but a very limited one and will never I think approach the popularity and success of the .44 magnum.

Buck Kramer
August 30, 2011, 07:43 PM
really upset the .327 never caught on...

Prosser
August 30, 2011, 08:05 PM
The problem with most of the big rounds is while they work, they require a LOT of bullet weight to get penetration on big game.

It sort of seems like all the hand canon guys, and a lot of hunters, either put up with the big guns recoil, and there aren't many of these, or, they tone it down, and stay between 220-325 grains for bullet weight. I don't see why a .375" bullet, in that weight range, using a larger then caliber case, read bottleneck, can't provide huge killing power, and penetration, with liveable recoil.

Ben86
August 30, 2011, 11:28 PM
I'm surprised .308" caliber pistols aren't more popular.

I really like the 7.62x25 and wish there was modern polymer framed pistols chambered in it. An M&P pistol in 7.62x24 with premium jhps would be pretty sweet.

I think the trend will increasingly go toward small caliber-high pressure rounds with specialized gas systems, propellants and maybe sabot encased bullets to deal with the exceedingly high velocities. The next generation will marvel at our unnecessarily large, slow, less energetic and capable chamberings.

Cryogaijin
August 31, 2011, 06:06 AM
I really like the 7.62x25 and wish there was modern polymer framed pistols chambered in it. An M&P pistol in 7.62x24 with premium jhps would be pretty sweet.

I think the trend will increasingly go toward small caliber-high pressure rounds with specialized gas systems, propellants and maybe sabot encased bullets to deal with the exceedingly high velocities. The next generation will marvel at our unnecessarily large, slow, less energetic and capable chamberings. ++

I suspect that we'll have a new, effective caliber once some of the new materials techniques come to fruitation, allowing the use of higher pressure, faster burning powders with greater energy density than current powders. There are reasons that most of the popular calibers all have fairly similar terminal ballistics; they all use the same technologies and materials.

Envision a round similar to the Tok that fired a 185gr tungsten projectile at 2100 fps, yet still allows 18 rounds in a double stack magazine.

4thHorseman
August 31, 2011, 09:07 AM
I think they have to fill a special nitch that other calibers do not fill. Just making a new caliber, say for an example 45 GAP or 357 Sig usually does not have a big following. :)

Ben86
August 31, 2011, 11:22 AM
Envision a round similar to the Tok that fired a 185gr tungsten projectile at 2100 fps, yet still allows 18 rounds in a double stack magazine.

Sign me up! I would also like to see a trend of integral suppression in firearms. Well first maybe some legislation making the purchase of a suppressor as easy as buying a flashlight. These hyper vel calibers we envision will be very loud, integral suppression will be very popular.

rcmodel
August 31, 2011, 11:29 AM
Envision a round similar to the Tok that fired a 185gr tungsten projectile at 2100 fps, yet still allows 18 rounds in a double stack magazine. I can envision it being totally worthless for anything except punching holes in steel plate and body armor.

I can also envision it having so much recoil & muzzle blast as to be uncontrollable in fast follow-up shots.
You are talking low end centerfire rifle ballistics.

I can also envision it being totally against Federal law in the United States, as it would fall under the "Cop Killer" bullet ban provided for in the 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act.

rc

ccsniper
August 31, 2011, 02:51 PM
i really like the 7.62x25 and wish there was modern polymer framed pistols chambered in it. An m&p pistol in 7.62x24 with premium jhps would be pretty sweet.

plus a bazillion

KDS
August 31, 2011, 03:33 PM
I would really like to get a revolver in 327. Ijust can't justify the cost of ammo. I don't understand why a company would spend all the money on R&D for both gun and ammunition design and then not market the heck out of it and make sure its on the shelf at walmart for a decent price. Something below or at the cost of 38 special. You can't even order it online for a good price most of the time. If ammo was cheap, I'd have a j frame and k frame in this caliber, not to mention a single action or 2.

Cryogaijin
September 1, 2011, 12:00 AM
I can envision it being totally worthless for anything except punching holes in steel plate and body armor. You need better vision. Finding a tungsten alloy that is soft enough to expand/deform is quite possible, while still keeping it twice as dense as lead. But yeah, it would be quite penetrant.

I can also envision it having so much recoil & muzzle blast as to be uncontrollable in fast follow-up shots. Better vision++ there are myriad recoil reducing technologies out there, especially if you design the gun around them. Since we're already talking new materials and a new system this isn't out of the question.

You are talking low end centerfire rifle ballistics. That is kinda the point. Cart technology has been essentially stagnant since the brass cased smokeless cart was invented. There have been design differences, but nothing really revolutionary has come along. With new materials and designs getting something up into the high end of magnum rifle pressures shouldn't be too terribly difficult. That said, I suspect we're 20 years out from the various materials being ready for prime time.

I can also envision it being totally against Federal law in the United States, as it would fall under the "Cop Killer" bullet ban provided for in the 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act. Maybe maybe not. It is somewhat out of the scope of this question, and a bit on the political side.

JohnBiltz
September 1, 2011, 05:28 AM
I can't think of a single round that is really popular that did not start as a military or police round and that goes back to .45 long colt.

whalerman
September 1, 2011, 06:39 AM
Here in New Yawk, many police agencies went to the 10mm. That went bust. Now many police agencies went to the .45 GAP. That's now going bust. But we have lots of money here in New Yawk for fads.

Trebor
September 1, 2011, 09:00 AM
The last real succesful new handgun cartridge was the .40 S&W, and that's about 20 years old now.

The .357 Sig? A few LEO agencies use it, and it may soldier on for them, but I don't see it as a popular cartridge.

The .45 GAP? Dead, or soon to be dead.

The .327? Should have caught on, but didn't. I'd say it's on life support.

All of those are still in production, but I don't know if I'd call any of them "succesful" (except fo the .40 S&W)

There are others that are totally dead. Anyone shoot a .41 AE lately?

I think all the niches have been covered and don't see where any new cartridge would fit in.

Ben86
September 1, 2011, 09:03 AM
I can envision it being totally worthless for anything except punching holes in steel plate and body armor.

I can also envision it having so much recoil & muzzle blast as to be uncontrollable in fast follow-up shots.
You are talking low end centerfire rifle ballistics.

I can also envision it being totally against Federal law in the United States, as it would fall under the "Cop Killer" bullet ban provided for in the 1994 Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act.

Your visions are awfully pessimistic. :D With properly designed expanding ammo the hyper velocity could result in mind blowing expansion while still having 12 inches of penetration. Low end centerfire ballistics is what I'm after. With a special gas system and integral suppressor recoil and muzzle blast can be controlled. It may be illegal in armor piercing steel tipped form, but not in regular fmj or jhp. Much like 5.56 pistols.

It may sound silly, but lofty plans for future tech. often do. I really think the future is basically short, hyper-velocity rifle rounds out of a pistol.

Prosser
September 1, 2011, 01:05 PM
I just ran 185 grain at 2100 fps, in a 2.2 pound gun:
Recoil Energy of 36 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 32 fps.
That's about the same as .475 Linebaugh in my FA 83, 400 grains at 1350 fps,
IIRC.

In a 3.2 pound gun, same as my FA 83's, Recoil Energy of 25 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 22 fps.. That's 44 magnum territory.

It's kind of odd, but one of my favorite legends used something similar to take
pretty much every game animal on the planet. Lee Jurras, when he owned Hi-vel, would load 185 grain .44 magnum loads at 1900 fps. That drops the recoil to Recoil Energy of 20 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 20 fps. That's low .44 Magnum recoil. He would tailor the bullets to his target, mainly using LFN
type jacketed bullets. The velocity makes a big wound channel by it's self.

gyvel
September 9, 2011, 07:30 PM
45-38 handgun cartridge.

Been done already. Back a few decades, a wildcat was introduced that was a .45 ACP necked down to .38. It was called the .38/.45 something-or-other (don't remember the exact name), and had a moderate following. It really was a good feeder in 1911s that were converted. I had a set of dies and a barrel for it a couple years ago that I got in pile of stuff from an estate.

tipoc
September 9, 2011, 11:05 PM
The challenge the .327 Magnum had was poor marketing. It was marketed as a self defense round that gave you ".357 Magnum ballistics" in a smaller lighter handgun or some such. 1400 fps with close to 400 ft/pds. of energy, wow, wow, wow!

Problem was that it did not ring quite true. The bullet was smaller in diameter and lighter in weight than the .357 Mag and many shooters who had their 38s and 357s did not see where it got them enough more than the .38 Spl. +P for them to move to a new round. Energy from the muzzle is not the same as power. With a heavier bullet, like 115 grs, the 327 could get 1300 fps or so but folks had the 9mm for that venue.

Where the .327 does shine is as a modern version of the old 32-20. A good target, plinker and varmint round. With the plus of being able to shoot the 32 H&R, etc. through it. Could be a lot of fun from a lever gun or a pump. But it was not pushed in this way unfortunately.

tipoc

Sam Cade
September 9, 2011, 11:22 PM
Been done already. Back a few decades, a wildcat was introduced that was a .45 ACP necked down to .38. It was called the .38/.45 something-or-other (don't remember the exact name), and had a moderate following. It really was a good feeder in 1911s that were converted.

Probably thinking of 45-38 Clerke.

More recently the .38 Casull popped up.

JohnBiltz
September 10, 2011, 04:02 AM
I can't think of a single round that is really popular that did not start as a military or police round and that goes back to .45 long colt.

I actually did think of one. 30-30. Yeah, you have to go way back. Special circumstances on that one too. If it wasn't the first smokeless hunting round it was close to it and it had Winchester behind it.

oldfool
September 10, 2011, 08:58 AM
Depends on what adopted means; pretty much every handgun cartridge ever was is still being shot by somebody somewhere.

Some examples being the big bore cartridges mentioned in thread. You cannot very well say they have not been adopted, but on the other hand, they don't sell the ammo round counts like 38sp, 357, 40 S&W, 45 acp or 9 mm, much less 22 rimfire. As for 40S&W, was it really newly evolved and adopted, or was it really the not so widely adopted 10mm devolved ? (heckifiknow)

To be widely adopted by average-joe civilian, to be truly popular, to see a bunch of handguns chambered for that round in just any gun shop you just might happen to wander into (and ammo on wallyworld shelves), it pretty much has to be 1st adopted by LE or military. Obvious examples being the aforementioned 38sp, 357, 40 S&W, 45 acp or 9 mm. Why is the AR so wildly popular (the 223 is anything but new) - it's because that's what the 'big boys' use, or at least mighty like it; it's not the cartridge, it's the firearm.

Seems to me, that there have already been so many attempts at new & different for "service" calibers, that there simply is no performance gap to be filled, there is already more than ample overlap.

One cartridge that really had a great chance I think is the 327. But I agree with Craig C on that. I think the performance potential of the 327 has enough appeal; the failure is in not offering more/other handguns to shoot it out of. They mostly pushed it at snubbies, and a 6th round in a J-size is just not appealing enough vs the wide array of 38/357 snubbies already out there. If they had offered more handgun selections, I would probably own one by now. It has rapidly become just another too high priced round not commonly found on the store shelf that chambers in too few guns.

But any new revolver cartridge is at a severe disadvantage in the widespread popularity contest, simply because odds of LE or military adoption are slim and none.

The not-new-cartridge 380 acp trend being driven by the 7 shot derringer craze. That's what they were counting on, I guess, for the 327, but those snubbies just cannot downsize all the way to where the 380s are. The gun counts for a whole lot more than the caliber does in that example, and that is where the 327 came up short.

oldfool
September 10, 2011, 09:08 AM
Just an afterthought here, on the 327...
I do wonder what might have been if Ruger had first introduced the LCR in 327 only.

Some might feel the new/different gun compelling enough reason, and it strikes me as a better matchup for the LCR than the 38sp, and an even better matchup than 357 in LCR.

I guess they felt they were rolling the dice on high enough odds with just the different gun design.
But with all the performance overlap in handgun cartridges, there needs be something "compelling" about the firearm itself to get the round off the ground.
(look at what da' Judge did for 410 buckshot, for better or worse, they sell)

tipoc
September 10, 2011, 12:42 PM
Quote:
"I can't think of a single round that is really popular that did not start as a military or police round and that goes back to .45 long colt."

I actually did think of one. 30-30. Yeah, you have to go way back. Special circumstances on that one too. If it wasn't the first smokeless hunting round it was close to it and it had Winchester behind it.

I think we kinda have to stick with handgun rounds for this discussion. New rifle rounds have been introduced fairly frequently in recent years, though the recession seems to have slowed that down some, particularly the plethora of short magnum rounds. The bar is also set at a different height, in terms of sales, for what makes a successful hunting round than what makes a successful handgun round. The 7mm Remington Magnum which was introduced in 1962, has been a very successful rifle round with no military past. There are a number of others as well.

tipoc

Cop Bob
September 10, 2011, 01:18 PM
I think that the secret to a cartridge becoming a commercial success, is #1 adaptation my Military (38spcl, 45acp, 45-70, 30-40 krag, 30-06,308,223, 50bmg), or major Govt contract, (the 40 comes to mind).. There is some talk in the Special Ops community about an intermediate cartridge, so the 6.5 or the 6.8 Grennell ? may make a commercial success, many makers are starting to chamber for it..

It seems that past success have been helped along by availability of surplus weapons, and brass, as well as returning vets taking a liking to them.. The 40 S&W became such a hugh success because the 10mm was to much a a bear to handle, so they toned it down, when the FBI picked it up, other LE Trainers got to looking at it and realized that it was a very good blend of size, weight capacity and speed..

But the one thing that is being overlooked... If the Gun Rags.. I mean, Magazines start writing favorable reviews and articles, the gun makers and ammo makers tart tooling up for them because they start getting request... It is AMAZING how much revenue in sales is generated of of magazine articles... and sales drive it all..

Justin Holder
September 10, 2011, 02:19 PM
Another cartridge that was not marketed right was the .480 Ruger. It seems like it vanished overnight. If Ruger had chambered it in a Bisley or Super Blackhawk single action it would still be around.

If Marlin had made a lever action rifle and Ruger had made a six shot Blackhawk with a convertible cylinder in .32-20 WCF, the .327 mag. would have had a bigger following.

tipoc
September 10, 2011, 03:33 PM
But the one thing that is being overlooked... If the Gun Rags.. I mean, Magazines start writing favorable reviews and articles, the gun makers and ammo makers tart tooling up for them because they start getting request... It is AMAZING how much revenue in sales is generated of of magazine articles... and sales drive it all..

The gun magazines often work in tandem with the ammo, and or gun manufacturers in generating buzz about a cartridge. That is marketing campaigns. This was the case most recently with the .357 Sig. That round was introduced in 1994 and unlike the .40 S&W (introduced 1990 or so) aroused little enthusiasm and saw little sales. It was adopted by a few law enforcement organizations but not much action around it at all. Till about 3 years ago when a significant campaign was launched by the ammo and gun manufacturers (in concert with the appearance of a few switch caliber guns). The usual suspects were drawn upon to write glowing reviews of the round with some interesting claims in the gun mags and other venues and buzz generated on the internet. This was a successful campaign that revived a round that was fading away. All due to successful marketing.

tipoc

CraigC
September 11, 2011, 11:38 AM
Another cartridge that was not marketed right was the .480 Ruger.
I agree 100%! Ruger really dropped the ball with this one. The .480 deserves to be far more popular than the .460 and .500 S&W's as it is a far more practical, usable "bigger than a .45" big bore. While I greatly prefer a single action and a Bisley chambered in .480 would be the bees knees, the big SRH is actually lighter than a .44Mag Bisley Hunter model.

gyvel
September 12, 2011, 12:29 AM
Probably thinking of 45-38 Clerke.

Yes! That was it! Thanks.

Ben86
September 12, 2011, 10:47 AM
So if I want to have any chance at developing sales for a new caliber I need to get the gun rags involved? I don't doubt it. Police or military adoption is probably another must.

Maple_City_Woodsman
September 12, 2011, 10:49 AM
How often do you see or hear about .45 GAP? I think you could develop a new caliber but getting anyone to adopt it would be an uphill battle.

This is going to be the most critical mistake people will make regarding this debate.

45 GAP didn't offer the shooters anything at all in terms of new capabilities, NOR did it offer anything new in platform. All of the 45GAP guns have the same recoil, energy, magazine capacity, and operational platform as the 45acp counterparts that came only months later. Its singular advantage was the ability to shoot it in a slightly smaller 9/40 frame as opposed to a 45 size frame... and the phisical difference in size between a Glock 23 and a Glock 22 isn't all that much.

If a cartridge actually offers some kind of ballistic improvement, like the 357 Sig over a 9mm, then it will likely carve out a space for itself.

If the platform the round fires from offers some kind of capability improvement, like the 5.7's high capacity and fast followups, then it will likely carve out a space for itself.

I'd love to see a 45-40 or 45-38 handgun cartridge.

Those both exist already. You can get drop in conversion kits for any standard 1911 ... and they are STILL not at all popular ... because they are not 45acp, and hard core 1911 guys are the most closed minded sect of our closed minded sport.

Chindo18Z
September 12, 2011, 11:15 AM
I think that there is room in the marketplace for factory .41 Special.

The .41 Remington Magnum keeps hanging on after all these decades. Availability of 175-200 gr, 900-1000 fps .41 Special rounds might result in new medium frame .41 Special revolvers becoming popular. Such an offering would simultaneously be attractive to .41 Magnum revolver and carbine owners. I'd certainly like to see it offered in places like Wal-Mart. The .41 niche needs broadly offered and affordable loads...for both SD & practice...as not everyone reloads. Perhaps something like a .41 Special Gold Dot (or LSWCHP) along with a WWB .41 Special FMJ.

Now if Colt would just come out with an alloy framed .41 Special Trooper...

And if Smith would come out with a lock-less, stainless, lug-less, L-Frame Model (or even an N-Frame "658")...

antiquus
September 12, 2011, 12:16 PM
I agree the 327's problem was the guns they offered it in. No one took a chance to do something really significant and design a gun around the cartridge instead of rolling out the same old offerings with maybe one more round. The 327 isn't a snubbie round, it should be a 3' barrel, and it should be 8 shots. Then it could become the standout revolver round it should have been.

harmon rabb
September 12, 2011, 06:30 PM
I think that there is room in the marketplace for factory .41 Special.

The .41 Remington Magnum keeps hanging on after all these decades. Availability of 175-200 gr, 900-1000 fps .41 Special rounds might result in new medium frame .41 Special revolvers becoming popular. Such an offering would simultaneously be attractive to .41 Magnum revolver and carbine owners. I'd certainly like to see it offered in places like Wal-Mart. The .41 niche needs broadly offered and affordable loads...for both SD & practice...as not everyone reloads. Perhaps something like a .41 Special Gold Dot (or LSWCHP) along with a WWB .41 Special FMJ.

Now if Colt would just come out with an alloy framed .41 Special Trooper...

And if Smith would come out with a lock-less, stainless, lug-less, L-Frame Model (or even an N-Frame "658")...
180gr @ 1000fps? that's 40s&w, and revolvers are already chambered for it. not so sure a 41 special would be worthwhile as a result.

Chindo18Z
September 12, 2011, 06:47 PM
180gr @ 1000fps? that's 40s&w, and revolvers are already chambered for it. not so sure a 41 special would be worthwhile as a result.

True. And some revolvers are chambered in 10mm. And neither auto caliber has ever taken the revolver world by storm (610s & Tauri notwithstanding). How many .40 S&W revolvers are currently produced?

My point is that there is a "gap" in traditional center fire rimmed revolver cartridges at about .41 diameter.

.357 Mag / .38 Special; .44 Mag / .44 Special; .41 Mag / ???

.41 Magnum owners would welcome a .41 Special. That could lead to some makers (besides Taurus) possibly producing some mid sized .41 Special defensive revolvers with 3-4 inch barrels.

As well, folks with .41 Blackhawks would appreciate a readily available 200 grain / 1000 fps non-magnum load that could also feed lever carbines.

There are plenty of good factory hunting loads in .41 Magnum. About the only decent commercial low recoil load for self defense is the Winchester Silvertip (175 gr JHP @ 1250 fps). I'm unaware of any factory produced range practice load from the major ammo vendors (although Georgia Arms sells quality bulk factory reloads). There are no "value packs" in .41.

Skribs
September 12, 2011, 08:17 PM
I think there's 2 reasons why cartridges don't get accepted. The .45 GAP I agree - it doesn't seem to add much over a .45 ACP. It's just a slightly smaller cartridge, but for some reason, weapons designed for it have a smaller capacity. Case in point - Glock 37 has a 10-round capacity, Glock 21 has a 13-round capacity. If the benefit is a smaller round, why does it have a lower round count?

The other reason is lack of availability. The .50 GI actually fills a niche that I haven't seen otherwise filled - a controllable .50 caliber handgun round. However, only GI makes them, and you're limited to a $3k 1911 or a $600 conversion for a Glock (if you don't have the Glock, another bunch for the frame), and the ammo is in extremely short supply.

Where I think there is a niche is a PDW round designed around a heavier bullet, which would mimic the effects of a 6.8mm or 7.62mm round at 300-400 yards at 0-100 yards. Something designed for a 7.5-10" barrel, which will have maybe a bit more recoil - but also more power - than a 5.7. Something like a 7mm, 90-grain bullet with roughly the same as - or a little less - muzzle energy as a 5.56 out of a 14.5" barrel.

CraigC
September 12, 2011, 11:11 PM
180gr @ 1000fps? that's 40s&w, and revolvers are already chambered for it. not so sure a 41 special would be worthwhile as a result.
The .41Spl can propel a 215gr SWC at 1200fps in appropriate guns. Give me the .41Spl any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I'd rather take a whoopin' than have to fool with moonclips.

LibraPMC
September 13, 2011, 03:21 AM
Do you think its possible for spec ops to already have optimum cartridge in use that is commercially unavailable? I'm sure gov labs are constantly developing new handgun rounds that keeps hi capacity while firing acceptable bore projectile at high velocity. Most rounds go through military use before becoming commercially available so this may be possible.

LibraPMC
September 13, 2011, 03:36 AM
repost

Chindo18Z
September 13, 2011, 11:23 AM
Do you think its possible for spec ops to already have optimum cartridge in use that is commercially unavailable?

Yes. But only on a very small scale of employment. A few dozen weapons using an exotic cartridge developed through internal R&D.

6.8mm SPC is an example.

I am aware of a few more. But honestly, since they rarely have application for general issue to the greater force, they exist only as oddities...employed in minuscule numbers of weapons. Nothing magic so far...just different...and usually designed to do a specific thing for a particular situation. A few special purpose handgun rounds come to mind.

More typically, new bullets are adopted for existing (and commercially available) cartridges. These do occasionally trickle out to the rest of the military and LEO/civilian market.

Black Hills Mk 262 77gr & Federal/ATK MK 318 MOD 0 62gr 5.56 loads are examples.

SOF use and secrecy aside...when something works truly well in combat...that fact inevitably becomes common knowledge. What works well is eventually adopted by both conventional forces and the civilian market. Sometimes with handgun cartridges, what works well in the LEO environment eventually gets adopted by segments of the military and the general civilian population. .40 S&W & .38/.357 are examples of this.

CraigC
September 13, 2011, 11:39 AM
Some observations. Firstly, this is the handgun forum so I'm not sure how relevant rifle cartridges should be to this discussion.

Secondly, there has been very little change to military cartridges over the last 50yrs. Think about it, the .38Spl is over 100yrs old and little of its success can be attributed to military use. The .45Colt is almost 140yrs old and none of its commercial success for the last hundred years can be attributed to its military use. For handguns, that really just leaves the 9mm and .45ACP. Both of which are 100yrs old. No news on this front since the US military adopted the 9mm in the 1980's.

In the last 100yrs but especially in the last 50yrs there has been A LOT of consolidation and much less experimentation/change in small arms ammunition than there was prior to 1900. So I have to reject the notion that a new cartridge must come from the military.

just for fun
September 13, 2011, 03:22 PM
Gun rags have been telling about the fall of the 41 Mag since the late 70's. Some must not have heard the news cuz it's still being sold! The 45 gap (for the most part) was/is a glock thing and that's enough for a pass. Got some range brass for one, but that is as far as I went.

If you enjoyed reading about "If New Handgun Caliber is Developed These Days... Is It Possible to be Adapted?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!