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scythefwd
August 27, 2011, 01:47 PM
All,
I'm about to start gathering stuff to reload for my .40 S&W. Right now I am shooting golden sabres and I got curious.

I miked the bullet just in front of the case mouth and I am getting a .390 diameter. I thought that looked wrong, so I dropped the bullet into the muzzle of my barrel... sinks to the case mouth. I suspect that the bullet is a bit undersized, and I'm thinking that can't be helping accuracy...

Mic'ing the grove on the barrel, and I'm seeing .400. I'm .01 small on the bullet diameter it looks like unless there is a step in the case that I'm not seeing.

Anyone have a good pic of the golden sabre with a measurement at the base of the bullet I can see?

I know that, in general, if you drop a loaded round all the way to the case mouth on rifles the muzzle has severe wear and you need to either look at getting cut down and recrowned or replace the barrel... I don't think this is the case with my barrel due to the grove diameter I measured and the diameter of the bullet itself. I can't seem to get my calipers to rest on two lands to measure those accurately. Hey, at least my chamber is fully supported :)

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243winxb
August 27, 2011, 02:05 PM
Sounds like an ogive problem. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Ogive_1.jpg :D

scythefwd
August 27, 2011, 02:27 PM
243, this is a factory load that isn't set back. I can do it with every one in the box. I have been told there is some special loading considerations for the golden sabre bullets. So much so that the lee fcd cannot be used to load them. Looking at the bare component online, there is a slight crimp ring, but I cannot say if the base is .01 larger than above the ring because I can't eyeball that from a pic.

I'll play your game, where is the ogive on the remington golden sabre then? Also, what is the base diameter of the bullet? I'll play symantics with ya :)

snuffy
August 27, 2011, 03:56 PM
I'll play your game, where is the ogive on the remington golden sabre then? Also, what is the base diameter of the bullet? I'll play symantics with ya

What 243 is saying is the ogive is inside/under the the end of the case, the mouth. I promise you it's 400 below the mouth of the case. Pull a bullet. then you can measure the full bullet diameter.

scythefwd
August 27, 2011, 04:19 PM
snuffy - I get that, which is why I rephrased my question as to where the ogive is and what is the base diameter. Below the casemouth is about as useful as somewhere on the bullet. I ask, because it matters when assembling these rounds... something I am looking to do.

I don't have a puller for .40 caliber yet, and I don't have a kinetic puller. Also don't have the dies to put the bullet back together.

gamestalker
August 27, 2011, 04:30 PM
I'm not familar with the olgive location on the .40 Golden Saber. However, I recently noticed that 110 gr. XTP's don't have the olgive above the canelure, which got my attention in the same way as with you. Further inspection and measurement of the bullet put me at ease when I discovered the bullet measured .357" below the canelure. So it may be a simular circumstance with those Golden Saber's?

scythefwd
August 27, 2011, 04:40 PM
gamestalker, I suspect it is, but I want to be sure. I don't have to tools right now to pull handgun bullets, so i cannot check myself. I have heard some people load them here, so I'm hoping someone will have one not already loaded that they can take a caliper to and measure the base of the bullet.

Walkalong
August 27, 2011, 04:46 PM
The Golden Sabers are two diameter, or bore riding, bullets. I do not have a .40 to measure, but a 124 Gr 9MM GS measures .355 & .348, and a 230 Gr .45 measures .451 and .442+. Each has a small pressure ring at the base.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=1601160321

My bullets have a smaller (in length) full diameter part. Much less than these pics at Midway.

243winxb
August 27, 2011, 04:47 PM
What Snuffy said. Looks like the bullet is just seated deep, short COL. Midwayusa lists 2 Rem. Golden Saber bullets. http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=1&categoryId=7249&categoryString=9315***652***19785***9015***&brandId=1601 As far as taking measurement of the bulllets, 165 & 180gr, we need a handloader to measure some. http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/large/10000/1601249046.jpg Photo is a 180gr :)

243winxb
August 27, 2011, 04:49 PM
Thank you Walkalong. two diameter, or bore riding, Very interesting.

Walkalong
August 27, 2011, 04:55 PM
It is generally associated with cast bullets.

scythefwd
August 27, 2011, 05:14 PM
walkalong - Thanks... I thought it might be something like that, but I couldn't tell from the pic.

243 - That would be why I posted it in the handloading forum :p I saw the pic on midways site, I'm just not able to tell if/how much the expansion is (I can barely see the second diameter is different from the first in that pic) Thanks for the pic though. I appreciate it.

243winxb
August 27, 2011, 05:33 PM
Scythefwd, i knew about cast rifle bullets being bore riding, the Golden Saber is new to me. Guess i been shooting cast bullets to long. Thank you for your post, i learned something today. :)

Seedtick
August 28, 2011, 12:07 AM
I learnt something as well.

They have a 125 grain bullet for .357 (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1601167272) and another one for .38 Special. (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=1601397930)

Neither of which have a cannelure. :scrutiny: Odd. :scrutiny:

I understand them having a bullet for magnum velocity and a different one for the special.....

but why do these revolver bullets not have a crimp groove/cannelure?

Seedtick

:)

scythefwd
August 28, 2011, 10:05 AM
seedtick, setback isn't an issue on revolvers nearly as much as it is in semi-autos. My father never crimped his .38sp rounds... not uncommom.

Walkalong
August 28, 2011, 10:13 AM
While setback isn't an issue in revolver rounds, bullets creeping forward out the case can be.

I tried some of the GS bulllets in .38 Spl, and gave them a medium taper crimp. I would give them a healthy taper crimp in .357 Mag to help eliminate the bullet creeping forward out of the case and tying up the cylinder. That is rarely a problem at .38 Spl recoil/velocity levels, but can happen at .357 mag levels. It is mostly a problem with heavy bullets in heavy recoiling loads.

Why Remington chose not to give them a cannelure is something only they can answer. Perhaps the jacket is too thin at that point, but I have a jacket still in the "cup" form from a box of 230 Gr GS's that is like most any other jacket cup. It is the same thickness throughout.

gamestalker
August 28, 2011, 02:34 PM
I've never had bullet set back with revolver rounds, but I have had them jump forward, actually jump completely out of the mouth. The first time that happened it locked my .357 up tight, that was a few decades ago. Now I make sure to put a healthy crimp on them, and haven't had a repeat as yet.

Steve C
August 28, 2011, 02:52 PM
Golden Sabers have a "driving band" at the base of the bullet that fills the bore and engages the rifling. Crimp them so the case mouth touches the bullet side above the driving band. You don't need to worry about bullet jump with light bullets like the 125 grain GS bullets, even in the .357 mag though Remington loads this bullet to a lower 1,200 fps velocity which is where they designed the bullet for best performance.

When comparing the GS bullet for the .357 mag vrs the .38 spl you will see the .38 spl bullet has a wider and deeper hollow to ensure opening up at lower velocity.

scythefwd
August 28, 2011, 05:58 PM
Thanks steve C

Now that you guys mention it.. my old man may have used a taper crimp... and I might not have caught it. It was not roll crimped

Seedtick
August 28, 2011, 10:34 PM
seedtick, setback isn't an issue on revolvers nearly as much as it is in semi-autos. My father never crimped his .38sp rounds... not uncommom.

I don't shoot many 38s but some powders for mag loads will be more consistent and burn cleaner with a good crimp. I just thought it was odd they didn't have a crimp groove.

Seedtick

:)

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