Wolf Primers - Problem!!!


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Quoheleth
August 29, 2011, 02:39 PM
Today I went to the range with my new-to-me Smith model 10 with 80 rounds I had loaded earlier this summer. Out of that box of 80, I had fifteen duds. Almost every cylinder had at least one failure to fire; one cylinder had three. Very frustrating.

148148

As far as details, these were loaded with 4.0gr Universal under a 158gr LSWC using mixed brass. Primers were pushed in as hard as I could with the primer system attached to my Lee Turret.

Here are some photos of a small sample of rounds that fired perfectly.

148150

Here are photos of some of the 15 rounds that failed to ignite. You cans see nicely centered firing pin strikes. Note: some of these have deeper firing pin marks because I tried to fire them 2 of 3 times.

148147
148149

Frustrated, I emailed Wolf. My email read:

Sir or Madam:

Today I went to the range with a box of 80 rounds of .38 Special I had loaded a few weeks ago. The rounds consisted of mixed brass, 4.0gr Universal, a 158gr LSWC bullet, and a Wolf Small Pistol Primer, lot Number 5-10 with a red dot above the number. Primers were seated deeply and firmly with my Lee primer system on my Lee turret press.

Out of my 80 rounds, I had 15 failure to fire out of my Smith & Wesson model 10. I have had some failure to fire out of my guns before, but only one or two per 100. This was a significantly larger number and, quite frankly, unacceptable.

It's not a gun issue. My box of factory-fresh Winchester White Box target ammo fired perfectly - fifty for fifty.

I do not believe it a storage issue, either. The primers had been stored in my garage inside a sealed can with dessicant. My garage is not climate controlled. I have not had issues with other makers' primers stored in this manner - in fact, I have a couple sleeves of primers from a major American manufacturer dated 2008 that still fire perfectly when I ran them through my .357 Magnum two weeks ago.

Do you have any suggestions as to what I might to to resolve my problem with these Wolf primers? As you can imagine, it's frustrating enough to have one or two failure to fires per box of 100; it's aggrevating to have 15 out of 80 fail to fire.

I will look forward to hearing from you.

Sincerely,

Q

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Steve Koski
August 29, 2011, 02:48 PM
Crank up your hammer spring all the way, they'll probably light.

Or buy a Glock.

Koski

jcwit
August 29, 2011, 02:56 PM
Firing pin strikes sure do not seem to be centered.

Take a round apart and see if you can cook a primer off.

bds
August 29, 2011, 03:10 PM
If you can try the same primers in other pistols, you may be able to verify the primer issue.

I have tested primers by seating them in the empty case and firing in the garage (doors/windows closed to suppress the noise) - of course with no powder/bullet.

If the primers are seated below flush (.004") and won't fire in different pistols with different hammer/striker pressures, then you identified the root cause to further communicate with Wolf as they have sometimes pointed to weak firing pin spring as the cause in the past.

There have been past discussions of Wolf lot # from 2010 that had harder primer cups that did not fire even with repeated strikes.

Quoheleth
August 29, 2011, 03:15 PM
Buy a Glock...puh-leeze.

I have had similar problems - although not to this extent - with my Smith & Wesson model 15, Ruger SR9c and CZ85. Today was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I should have indicated this in my email. If they respond, I'll include that in follow-up communications.

Q

MickKennedy29
August 29, 2011, 04:54 PM
I have gone through about 5k Wolf primers and in my Ruger Gp100 I have maybe 1 in every 100 fail to fire. I do get some that take a 2nd strike to fire off, but I am not counting those. The Ruger has a lighter-than-factory hammer spring installed, which I believe is my problem. In my HK P30 and Springfield EMP I do not think that I had any fail to fire, at least none that I recall. It sounds to me like you got a bad batch, it happens, which sucks. Maybe they will do something about it, but frankly I would be surprised if you get any more than a "We are sorry" email.

bds
August 29, 2011, 06:31 PM
Were these nickel or brass/bronze colored?

I believe it was the nickel colored SP primer lot that had the harder cups that failed to ignite.

56hawk
August 29, 2011, 06:55 PM
I hope you have other guns that take small pistol primers. I had the same problem with Magtec primers a while back. Some guns would shoot them and some wouldn't.

Anyway, next time buy Federal primers. They are the only primers I have found that are 100% in revolvers.

Quoheleth
August 29, 2011, 07:03 PM
These are the nickel colored ones.

Anyone know - did Tula primers have this problem as well? I also bought a whole case of Tulas at the same time.

Q

dagger dog
August 29, 2011, 07:37 PM
Try cutting the radius from the edge of the primer pockets with a military crimp remover or 45 degree counter sink. I found my Wolf LP primers almost impossible to bottom out in the pockets on new and once fired brass and some of them were nickle plated Remington.

If they don't bottom out they won't ignite with any consistancy. Also follow the tip by Koski and crank the hammer spring strain screw all the way they have harder cups.

Hondo 60
August 29, 2011, 07:41 PM
did Tula primers have this problem as well? I also bought a whole case of Tulas at the same time.

Boy, I sure hope not! :what:

I just bought a 5,000 Tula primers.

bds
August 29, 2011, 07:55 PM
Tula primers are made in the same factory as Wolf.

Wolf/Tula LP are bronze/brass in color while SP have been nickel in color and the nickel colored SP primers have been reported to have ignition problems.

I have used Wolf/Tula LP bronze/brass colored primers without ignition problems, but they require more effort to seat them to proper depth due to slightly larger size.

As to nickel colored Tula SP primer, I have experienced similar ignition problem as reported for Wolf SP primer. I have not used Wolf SP primer so I can't comment.

EddieNFL
August 29, 2011, 07:59 PM
I've witnessed several misfires with Wolf/Tula primers lately. Most were in a friend's Glock. All were high primers.

gennro
August 29, 2011, 07:59 PM
Primers were pushed in as hard as I could with the primer system attached to my Lee Turret.

Pressing your primers in as hard as possible can damage the primer also and could be causing your issue.

Quoheleth
August 29, 2011, 08:17 PM
Advice I was given previously is seat them as hard as possible - someone said they actually use "crush setting." Lee doesn't have that, so I seat them firmly, rotate the cartridge 180* and bump them one more time.

Q

gennro
August 29, 2011, 08:27 PM
I would just try seating them till they are flush with the head of the case. "Crushing" the primer can cause the anvil in the primer to be damaged and not fire.

floydster
August 29, 2011, 09:17 PM
After 15,000 Tula/Wolf primers fired in the last two years I have not had a single misfire or other problem in all of my handguns and long guns---it is not the primers in my estimation, look elsewhere.:what:

bds
August 29, 2011, 10:16 PM
As many of you know, I am OCD about primer seating depth (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=568838) and hand prime match grade reloads to .004" below flush.

The Tula SP "nickel" primer cases with misfires were hand primed as they were initial test batch and I wanted to make sure I did not have the similar reported Wolf SP misfire issues.

Mind you, I have yet to experience misfires with Wolf/Tula LP "bronze/brass" primers (over 10,000 rounds fired) and their performance has been on par with Winchester LP.

FYI, here are the lot numbers:

Tula SP: 20-10 (nickel color - several misfires per tray of 100)
Tula LP: 15-10 (bronze/brass color - no misfires)
Wolf LP: 2-09 (bronze/brass color - no misfires)

lono
August 29, 2011, 10:25 PM
I just finished a box of Tula primers. All 1000 rounds fired without fault in my Springfield 1911.

Joe_556
August 29, 2011, 10:45 PM
I've never had an issue with wolf primers. Operator error maybe?

zxcvbob
August 29, 2011, 10:47 PM
I have not had a single misfire using brass-colored Wolf SP primers (or any color of LP primers.) I never tried any nickel Wolf SP's, I heard too many problems with them.

I bought 5000 of the Tula SP's (I thought the Wolf nickel primers problem was just one lot) and they are nickel and I've had a few misfires in a DA revolver. They work just fine on the second strike, so I think they might be OK in a semiauto with a really strong hammer spring.

OrangePwrx9
August 29, 2011, 11:01 PM
I've had problems with Wolf LP primers in .44 magnum. Neither the Redhawk or the Super Blackhawk will set them off reliably. The .44 mag. Contender does, however.

Haven't tried them in the 1894 Marlin yet, but with the whack that thing delivers, I'd be surprised if there's any issue.

oldreloader
August 29, 2011, 11:26 PM
The only problem I had was learning to seat them firmly. Once I got the hang of that no more misfires with either Wolf or Tula.

gamestalker
August 29, 2011, 11:59 PM
Those prime strikes don't look right. Some look harder than others and all seem to be pretty far off center too. They also look kind of nasty, no offense please, it's just that they are very inconsistent in the apparent seating depth, and the edges look rough.
Does your gun spit lead? It' looks like it is in need of a timing job, or maybe the action is real loose?

greyling22
August 30, 2011, 12:34 AM
I'm about 2000 primers into my case of tula SP. no duds, and no light strikes in my marlin 1894c running light springs or my 686 with a light spring kit. My Witness elite 9mm with stock springs gives me about 1 light strike out of 35. 2nd whack always sets it off. I think I may need to buy a longer firing pin for it. The 686 dents the primers in further.

the witness ran fine with federal, winchester, and remington. My experience is that wolff/tula makes a solid, but hard primer. Really the only primers I've ever had issue with were magtech, and that was mostly just primers missing from boxes. (as many as 9 from a tray of 100)

EMC45
August 30, 2011, 09:48 AM
Prime by hand. You get a better "feel" for seating depth. Tighten the strain screw on your revolver. Folks often loosen these to reduce trigger pull, but in turn make a revolver that won't fire sometimes. If you are "crush seating" the primers (your words, not mine) you may be be crushing the priming pellet, therefore rendering it inert. Hence failure to fire. The strikes semm way off center as has been said here already. I would seriously look at your pistol. You said it was new to you. Maybe someone did some "gunsmithing" on it before you got it?

Rule3
August 30, 2011, 02:03 PM
Ah the Wolf primer failure rears it's ugly head again. I am sure you are aware of the past threads and issues on these. I went through the same thing, sent a letter (as did others) Bottom line was So sorry we do not replace primers due to all the folks that took advantage of them and got free primers.

I believe Wolf is phasing out the brand name and just going with Tula (same primer)

My problems with the Wolf were only one revolver. I have use thosands since in all types and they work fine.

Try a new main spring in the revolver (is it one of the Buds Specials??)

bds
August 30, 2011, 02:15 PM
But what about the Tula SP primers that failed to ignite in my Glocks with deep indentations?

They were hand primed to .004" below and of current production lot #.

I guess if 95% ignite, it was worth the $16/K I paid for them.

Funshooter45
August 30, 2011, 02:26 PM
It's not necessarily a fault of the primers OR a fault of the user. Some revolvers just might be on the very edge of specs, especially if they have been modified a little bit to enhance the trigger pull.

A few years ago I had a good buddy who had just decided to get sorta serious about handguns and eventually reload for them. He had 2 brand new 357 revolvers but before he got set up for reloading, he literally stumbled across an incredible deal to buy 5000 rounds of factory MagTech ammo in .38 special. He figured he would shoot them all up to get comfortable with his revolvers and then reload the cases. One day he called me to help him "dispose" of that factory stuff. I only bothered to take one revolver with me (not wantning to appear unreasonably greedy). I took my little S&W .357 Mod 60 with a 3" barrel since it seemed to be neglected on my part back then. I have fired at least 3000 rounds out of that revolver with my own reloads without a single misfire. But the trigger has been lightened a little bit to get a good double action pull. Much to my surprise, the little gun would have a misfire about one out of 5 rounds using a single action pull. Not quite so bad in DA mode. And neither of my buddy's Taurus revolvers had one single misfire in 1500 rounds. Clearly, there was nothing wrong with the ammo. Clearly there was nothing "wrong" with my S&W. Just that the primers were on the hard side of "spec" and my revolver was on the light side of "spec" for hammer strike. Just not a good combo there.

For the record, no I have not used Wolf primers in my revolvers. But I have used Wolf Large Rifle Magnum primers in sever rifles with nary a problem at all. They are not my #1 preferred primer, but they definitely work. I think Wolf makes reliable products. They might not always work in the application we try. Just like Federal primers or CCI primers might not be the best choice for what I'm doing at the time. That's the joy of handloading though. If one component doesn't do the job, try a different one.

Iron Sight
August 30, 2011, 05:19 PM
Make sure the strain spring screw is tight on your smith & wesson revolver!!!!

Iron Sight
August 30, 2011, 05:53 PM
Strain Screw has a circle around it. Make sure it is tightened.

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/SlowWater/StrainScrew.jpg

ny32182
August 30, 2011, 06:03 PM
My experience with Wolf/Tula so far is about 9000 through two factory triggered Glocks since last fall with zero issues. I gave a couple hundred from the same case to a buddy of mine to try in his lightened-trigger Glock, and he experienced a 4% FTFire rate.

As others have mentioned, I would either buy Federals that are known to be soft, or look at whether your gun is really striking hard enough.

codefour
August 30, 2011, 07:13 PM
My dad and I had a similar problem with an old S&W model 681 (police version of 686).

It did not matter waht primers we loaded, it failed to fire. Sometimes I would pull the trigger 20 to 25 times to get all six to fire. I can not recommend enough to get your S&W inspected by a good a good gunsmith.

On my 681, the hammer spring tension screw was screwed all the way in and still had FTF. The problem was the trigger was actually bad from too many years of hard usage as a former police gun. Once the trigger was replaced along with all the screws, it shot wonderfully. VERY accurate too.

The Smiths can wear out over time. Especially if you have an onlder, former police revolver.

GLOOB
August 30, 2011, 07:25 PM
+1 Gennro

The advice to seat primers as hard as you can was wrong. You can easily crush a primer too deep and/or crack the priming compound. People who say you can't haven't used the right primers and/or priming tools - or maybe they're just too weak to do it. Wolf/Tulammo SPP have soft, rounded cups that are particularly easy to flatten beyond recognition. Not to say this is the problem. It could be anything. But seating primers "as hard as I can" is probably not helping.

If it IS the primers, then other people may also be having problems with the same lot. Why don't you post the lot number?

Quoheleth
August 30, 2011, 11:14 PM
OK...so far I've got as possibles:

User error
- seated too firmly
- not seated deep enough
Gun error
- strain screw
- firing pin
- "other"
Primer failure
- bad lot

Well, that covers the bases, doesn't it :rolleyes:

It's lot # 5-10 with a red dot (if the color matters).

I can't comment on why some primer strikes are off-center, but as to why some are deeper than others, as I said, some of the rounds I tried 2, 3 and even 4 times to try to light off. No soap. Although no one has mentioned it, I have shaken all rounds and you can hear the powder charge in there.

I'm going to load another box of 100 with Wolf and 100 with Winchester and fire them out of the gun without altering it and using the same procedures. Both poxes of primers are stored in the same storage box. If the Winne (over a year older) light off, that should eliminate user error, storage, and gun as variables, right?

Q

oldreloader
August 30, 2011, 11:52 PM
If you have any Wolf to fail, Try a second shot with them and let us know how many fired on the second strike

bluetopper
August 30, 2011, 11:55 PM
I've found Wolf primers at the least, just as good as any other brand.

Rule3
August 31, 2011, 12:50 AM
OK...so far I've got as possibles:


I'm going to load another box of 100 with Wolf and 100 with Winchester and fire them out of the gun without altering it and using the same procedures. Both poxes of primers are stored in the same storage box. If the Winne (over a year older) light off, that should eliminate user error, storage, and gun as variables, right?

Q

No, not really as the Wolf are a harder primer. So the Win may work fine and Wolf may do the same thing. When the same thing happened to me (though not as many) it was only one gun and it was the mainspring.

ny32182
August 31, 2011, 09:26 AM
"Harder primer" means it takes a consistently harder firing pin strike to light them. Guns with lightened triggers often have the strike force reduced, and must use known "soft" primers for relable operation. This is the case with many match pistols I'm aware of, and the favorite "soft" choice is Federal.

Some brands are known to be "harder" consistently, such as Wolf/Tula, CCI milspec, etc. A military spec gun such as an AR15 with a free floating firing pin is safer with a harder primer, since the pin is being carried into the primer lightly every time a round is chambered.

It is entirely possible your gun may function at or near 100% with some brands of primers, and not with Wolf, and that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the Wolf/other hard primers.

Quoheleth
August 31, 2011, 10:54 AM
It is entirely possible your gun may function at or near 100% with some brands of primers, and not with Wolf, and that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the Wolf/other hard primers.
^
OK, I concede that point.

I have two .38s Smiths - a model 15 and a model 10. I'll try them both and see how things go. If I have time, I'll try to load up a batch of 9mm as well and see how they function in my three 9mms. Five different guns...maybe that'll tell me something?

It's only been 36 hours, but I have heard nothing from Wolf, yet. Even if all I get is a "tough cookies" kind of email, I hope to at least hear from them.

Q

ny32182
August 31, 2011, 11:02 AM
Between 5 guns I bet at least one of them has a stock trigger? I bet they work fine in that one. I'd try them in the 9mm's.

bds
August 31, 2011, 11:15 AM
Some brands are known to be "harder" consistently, such as Wolf/Tula, CCI milspec, etc. A military spec gun such as an AR15 with a free floating firing pin is safer with a harder primer, since the pin is being carried into the primer lightly every time a round is chambered.
I want to clarify as fair is fair.

While Wolf SP "nickel" colored primers have been reported to have ignition problems due to harder cups and my misfire experience is with Tula SP "nickel" colored primers, I have not experienced misfires with "bronze/brass" colored Wolf/Tula LP primers and found them not harder than Winchester bronze/brass colored LP primers. They are slightly larger in size and require more effort to seat them fully (.004" below flush). The misfires happened in G17/G22 with deep primer indentations so I rule out the light primer strike.

In comparison, PMC (also made in the same plant) SP bright brass colored primers have softer cup than Winchester SP.

Rule3
August 31, 2011, 01:52 PM
I thought PMC was now Korean?

Quoheleth
August 31, 2011, 03:18 PM
My S&Ws are used. I cannot confirm stock triggers, hammer, firing pin, springs, etc, but the side plate screws do not show signs of being turned/boogered. I'll check the strain screw on each Smith to be sure.

The SR9c is stock.
The CZ85 was returned to the Kansas City 15-18 months ago for new springs and a checkup. No mods were made.
The Kahr CW9 is stock.

I noticed the problem initially with the Wolf primers in my SR9c. I had read about Wolf being hard, so I tried them in my CZ thinking being hammer-fired instead of striker-fired might (somehow) make a difference. Nope. My Model 15 had the same problems. In all three guns, I would experience a 3-5% failure rate, although one package had 8% failure and one 11%. (By comparison, this Monday, the failure rate was almost 19% (15/80).)

Second strikes would usually, but not always, light the primer. If it didn't go on a second strike, further attempts would never set it off. Monday, I think I had two fire on a second strike.

Previously, the situation was analyzed as having high primers. I was encouraged to seat firmly and deeply (as I said, someone said "crush setting", whatever that is) and make sure primer pockets were clean and free from residue. So, I've checked primer pockets and seated slightly below flush.

It's supposed to cool off this weekend. Maybe I can get a couple hundred loaded up and get out there and try.

One positive about this - trying to put the best construction on this mess - is that a failure-to-fire lets you see any flinch very fast - same principal as loading a snap cap. :D

Q

Iron Sight
August 31, 2011, 05:05 PM
There is only 1 Strain Screw. Attached Pic with arrow pointing at it. You do not have to take the side plates off to tighten it. Might have to take the grips off?
http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/SlowWater/StrainScrewPic.jpg

mcyrier
September 1, 2011, 12:25 AM
30K wolf LPP, 200 gn LSWC, 45 ACP through a Colt series 80 and a Les Baer TRS. Not one failure to fire for me.

ArchAngelCD
September 1, 2011, 02:51 AM
Anyone know - did Tula primers have this problem as well? I also bought a whole case of Tulas at the same time.

Q
Like said above, Wolf and Tula are for the most part one in the same...

In your second picture I see nickel and yellow primers. I'm wondering if they are all Wolf?

During the "shortage" I used at least 1000 Wolf SPP without a bad one in the lot. That doesn't mean you didn't get a bad batch, only that I didn't. Sorry, I don't remember what color they were. I used other Wolf pistol primers and all those fired first time out too. From what I'm told Wolf primers are ever so slightly wider and more difficult to seat completely and would probably fire the second strike. (again, that doesn't mean this is your primer problem)

With all the guns not liking Wolf primers IMO you might want to steer clear of them in the future. ;)

The Bushmaster
September 1, 2011, 11:00 AM
Those that have only one strike on the primer indicate what Iron Sight has already stated. Until you have corrected this by insuring the screw is tight and has not been filed off. Some idiots file the screw shorter to lighten the trigger pull. Try shooting those rounds in another revolver.

As far as putting too much presure on the primer during seating, I doubt that is the problem as I tend to flatten primers when I seat them and have never had a problem. I use Lee's press mounted die and plunger priming system so I can really put the pressure on them when seating.

tydephan
September 1, 2011, 11:14 AM
I had rotten luck with Wolf primers. And I'll never buy anymore.

We've been loading for a few years now and have used Remington, CCI, and Federal primers without issue. But the Wolf primers gave us fits.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=518736

Another similar thread regarding these primers: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=526906&page=2&highlight=wolf

bds
September 1, 2011, 11:35 AM
I thought PMC was now Korean?
Probably for the regular primers as PMC Non-Toxic SP primers I have state made in Russia. Primer cups are bright brass with "E" stamped on the cups.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=148350&stc=1&d=1314887740

bds
September 1, 2011, 11:50 AM
But the Wolf primers gave us fits. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=518736

Another similar thread regarding these primers: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=526906
Yes, remember those links. BTW, did you ever get your refund or just ended up shooting them in your M&P?

I would have imagined that Wolf/Tula by now addressed the harder primer cup issue with nickel SP primer. I still think the jury is out on the nickel SP primer as people are still reporting ignition issues and my Tula SP lot # is very current (20-10). As to bronze/brass colored LP, I haven't had any problem.

tydephan
September 1, 2011, 02:06 PM
Nah I stopped persuing a refund. It was obvious Wolf didn't give a crap.

We shot them all up. Had about the same level of failure the entire time. We just chalked it up to a bad batch. Probably would have bought Wolf again had it not been for the sub par responses I received and their unwillingness to refund.

Plenty of other primers out there now!

EMC45
September 6, 2011, 12:32 PM
I bet those PMC are made by Tula/Wolf.

bds
September 6, 2011, 12:43 PM
My PMC SP primers are the NT (non-toxic green box) made in Russia. Not sure where the regular PMC primers (red box) are made now, but the origin of manufacture should be on the box.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=148350&stc=1&d=1314887740

dogrunner
September 7, 2011, 11:46 AM
I've had excellent results with Wolf in my AR .223's and never had a failure (that's with the copper colored primers)............However I happen to own a Kel Tec P3AT that has a problem with the yellow primered Tula ammo...........damn shame too, as that stuff is extremely accurate in the gun.............far better than either Fed or Winchester. I just chalked it up to the 'hard primer' issue as every single misfire (roughly 15 in a box of 50) went on the second strike. Too, it just might be that the springs are something of an issue as it's an older and hi round count gun that I've considered taking back to the fact. for a rebuild.

bds
September 7, 2011, 01:55 PM
every single misfire (roughly 15 in a box of 50) went on the second strike
If the primers ignited on second strike, looks like primers not seated deep enough.

The bronze/brass colored Wolf/Tula LP primers I have used are larger in diameter and harder to seat than Winchester/CCI. I normally seat primers to .004" below flush, but I could easily seat Winchester/CCI LP primers to .008" below flush if I wanted to using the hand priming tool or the press. With Wolf/Tula primers, I really have to apply additional pressure just to seat them to .004" below flush. Often, I could only seat them to flush in cases with tight primer pockets.

I would double check the seating depth and see if that makes a difference for your Kel Tec P3AT.

zxcvbob
September 29, 2011, 12:49 AM
I have not had a single misfire using brass-colored Wolf SP primers (or any color of LP primers.) I never tried any nickel Wolf SP's, I heard too many problems with them.

I bought 5000 of the Tula SP's (I thought the Wolf nickel primers problem was just one lot) and they are nickel and I've had a few misfires in a DA revolver. They work just fine on the second strike, so I think they might be OK in a semiauto with a really strong hammer spring.
I was having a lot of misfires with the Tula primers. Most would go off on a second strike; a few took 3 hits. It seemed to be getting worse. I tried different revolver (a Ruger) and they worked just fine, even double action. So I took the grips off my S&W and checked the strain screw. It was loose; almost one turn. http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/Smileys/default/smack.gif I snugged it up and no more problems -- I've only fired 50 rounds so it's not totally conclusive yet, but I feel a lot better about it.

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