[zahc]

Completely ignoring any issues of legality, what are some disadvantages of double edged knives? Would anyone carry a double edged knife for defense, again assuming they were/are legal?

[brownie0486]

It would depend on the blades design. Not all double edged knives make great defensive weapons.

As an example, the F/Sykes dagger would not be as efficient at defense as it was designed to be an offensive weapon primarily due to blade design [ dagger being more a stabbing implement and not as good a slasher as other designs ].

My Extrema Ratio Col Moschin double edge makes for a very efficent combative defensive knife, though I do not believe double edged knives of any design are better or worse than a single edged weapon if the person using it has some background in defensive knife tactics. The double edge knife may even be a detriment to the user who is not versed in it's use as that second edge can and will bite the user if not careful.

Brownie

[Joe Demko]

Some double edged knives are more useful than others. The classic Sykes-Fairbairn dagger has little utility beond stabbing. IME, the Gerber MkII dagger is similar in that regard. Lots of double edged knives are so thick in cross section that blade geometry makes is difficult to get a really sharp edge on them, and then they are still too wedgy for effective slicing and slashing. Other double eged knives don't have the same problem. The Applegate Fairbairn design, for example, is still a good stabber while having some utility at slicing and slashing. AG Russell designed his Sting series to have some utilitarian functionality as well as serve as weapons. The larger Sting II is one of the few boot knives I ever ran across that actually sliced well. Wouldn't be my first choice, but it is one of the few double edged knives I'd attempt to skin an animal with.
Right here in front of me I have a Malco Duct Knife DK1. It is a double edged knife used by HVAC techs for cutting flex duct. In appearance, it strongly resembles the Old Hickory sticking knife, though the blade is a little better polished. After a session with the Spyderco sharpener, both edges are frighteningly sharp. Have been using it (carefully) as a kitchen knife for a while. Slices flesh like a dream. Stabbed a pork roast with it the other day and it penetrated effortlessly. The tech who gave me this one said they cost about 10 bucks. I'd carry this knife for self-defense w/o hesitation. It wouldn't be difficult at all to somebody dire harm with it.

[JShirley]

Well, a few months ago, I bought a Sticking (Duct) Knife, based partially on someone's recommendation. :rolleyes: :D It can be made very sharp, but if I were forced to use a knife defensively, I want to be able to stab. The duct knife's blade is on the thin side for this, and even more importantly, it has no guard. The blade MAY not break, but you will cut yourself, as well as your attacker.

For myself, I like a single-edge blade. If possible, I want it to be rather large. For me, "a good camp knife" with excellent defensive utility will have a 12-17" blade, with some curve to the edge. Double edges are great, with proper construction, for penetration. I want a knife to be able to hack, chop, slice, stab, you name it. Some techniques I've practiced involved reinforcing the back of the blade. Using a single edge gives me much more versatility in use.

OTOH, if you are going to carry a wussy little 4" bladed knife exclusively for defense, and don't reinforce the blade at all, a well-designed double-edged blade might be great. Just be sure it has at least a vestigial guard. ;)

John

[Baba Louie]

Disadvantages? Sharpening two sides maybe.

Carry? Double edged knife, like a Randall No 1? Sure, why not? I'd probably want another sheath, maybe in Kydex made for it. A little faster to draw from than unsnap, pull straight up, etc.

Even a short dagger like a Randall No 2-4" or 5" or a Mini-Smachet would work, except now the BG's gotta be even closer. 7" to 9" would be the minimum if you knew you were gonna need it.

Now that I look at the shorty KaBar I notice that its swedge is sharpened as well, effectively making it a double edged (sorta) tool.

Cold Steels push dagger (the big one), I'd carry one for defense if legal.

[Joe Demko]

Well, a few months ago, I bought a Sticking (Duct) Knife, based partially on someone's recommendation.

Well, just because I'm good looking, smart, and rich doesn't mean I know what the hell I'm talking about. However, your assessment of the knife in question does zero in rather nicely on its shortcoming: the lack of a guard. Can't speak for the duct knife in my possession, but some experiments with various Old Hickory knives convinced me that the blades were more than tough enough for breakage not to be a worry. The lack of a guard is a legitimate concern. That is why, as a search on my posts to the topic will show, I have always recommended working on the handle scales with a rasp or similar tool. Some reshaping of the scales will go a long way toward making sure your fingers don't meet those frighteningly sharp edges.
I'm just hooked on the idea that specialized "fighting" knives are a modern abberation. For an awfully long time, the majority of people got along with just plain old knives that they used for everything including killing each other. To each his own, though.

[DakotaSig]

With a CWP, double edged blades are legal here. I would also vote for the push dagger. It seems to be the best weapon to get a good grip on. It also is the most natural to fight with, since the movement is the same as punching.

Just my .02 :)

[Smoke]

Not for me....

The training I have taken focuses on a single edged design. If I had two edges I wouldn't know how to effectively use them. I guess if one side gets dull form slicing up an attacker I can turn it over and use the other:)



Smoke

[hillbilly]

Isn't the logic behind Bowie-style blades to get the combination of the stabbing power of a two-edged knife with the cutting and slashing power of a single-edged knife?

At least Bowie-style blades that have the top edge actually sharpened, instead of just shaped like that for show?

hillbilly

[Prodigalshooter]

I have several small double edged knives that would work well in both slashing and stabbing, but I think small is the operative term in this case. The Gerber Guardian is one, it's got two very sharp edges that will slash very effectively and it will penetrate just fine. It does have a small guard too, but in my opinion, I figure that in an attack, I'm going to slash a few times, to distract my attacker and then beat feet to safer realms!
I don't even want to think about being in any kind of extended fight with ANY knife!

[Balog]

I'm looking at the Malco Tool website (http://www.malcotools.com/) and I can't find the knife Golgo and JShirley are talking about. I can only find single edged 1 1/2" duct knives. What am I missing? :confused: The Flex Duct Cutter (http://www.malcotools.com/products/flexduct/fdc1.htm) has a double edge, but it's a shear not a knife.

[Joe Demko]

Balog,

The knife John and I are talking about is very similar to the one at the top of this page. (http://www.klenktools.com/Main/Products/DualDuctKnifeNew.asp) . Hope this helps.

[Balog]

Thanks for the link, that's cleared things up. I guess Malco just doesn't make 'em any more. :confused:

Would it be safe to assume that all quality duct knives would have the properties you've been discussing?

[Joe Demko]

If it is from a supply house that sells to actual HVAC techs, it should probably be a decent piece. They, like carpenters and mechanics, know the value of using good tools. The Old Hickory Sticking Knife on this page (http://www.bladematrix.tv/index.asp?PageAction=PRODSEARCH&txtSearch=Old_Hickory&btnSearch=GO&Page=1) is also worth experimenting with. Remember that reshaping the handles is necessary.

[Brian Williams]

These are not double edged knives but the bottom 2 are great knives. they have a laminated blade of hard tool steel sandwiched within 2 layers of softer but still tough steel. These things have a wicked sharp edge, but also have the problem of a lack of guard. I have not thought of reshaping the grips to prevent slippage. For $11 to $14 not bad.
Item b
http://shop.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft/assets/product_images/03A60.jpg

[Don Gwinn]

Hey, John, are you sure? I read this magazine article this morning that said that large knives get you in trouble with the law and that you gotta carry small, utilitarian folding blade for defense.

Then again, the author seemed like a bit of a crackpot. . . . . :neener:

[Kestrel]

Prefessr,

Where are those knives available? Are they Norwegian Puukos?

Steve

[carpettbaggerr]

http://www.herculesindustries.com/content/DK1.jpg
A quick google revealed the Malco DK1. Techs really use these things for cutting duct? Looks more like something you'd find in Folsom. :D

The only double edged knife I'd use for defense would be a Smatchet


http://www.edmfknives.com/img18.gif

[mercop]

The only double edged blade I would endorse would be a push daggar. You will be checking with your live hand while fighting. If you blade gets blocked you will cut yourself with a double edged blade. If you don't believe it get a trainer and put two different color lip sticks on each side. Put on a white t-shirt and do a little force on force. You will find you cut yourself.

[Soap]

mercop- That is interesting. I've never had that problem with my A/F trainer blade. I don't really like push daggers because once someone locks your wrist, it is harder to rotate your wrist so the blade cuts them.

[mercop]

I only like push daggers if carried say in the boot. If you are in the naked choke you can pull it and pump it into the femoral artery. Most double sided blades including the SF are primarily for stabbing (which is good) and not the best for cutting/slashing. Just my $.02.

[Joe Talmadge]

The biggest disadvantage of double-edged dagger type knives, in my experience, is that the format requires the grind to start in the center of the blade, which leads to thick edges that don't slice well. You want a high-performance edge, you want a higher grind (though hollow grinding can mitigate this).

A different approach is a knife with a full high grind, then a sharpened false edge. This will lead to the main edge being very sharp and high-performance, and the swedge being able to cut though not nearly as well. This Randall Model 1 shows that design: a high-ground, high performance primary edge, and a more obtuse but still sharp false edge:
Randall Model 1 (http://www.agrussell.com/knives/by_maker/l_through_r/randall_made_knives/randall_model_1_with_stag_handle.html)

I tend to like the 2nd approach, but don't like the classic dagger design as much unless it's hollow-ground enough to let the edges cut well.

Joe

[Kestrel]

Joe - Excellent points. That makes a lot of sense.

[Hook]

I think that a double edge knife has it's merits but is kinda limited in it's usability.
Also, a seven inch blade is about max and anything longer would be too unwieldy up close. With some of those 8", 10" or longer blades you'd haveta put your foot on the guy's chest just to pull it out.

These are only my opinions and I have no doubt that some of you might be a lot "handier" with your choices than I would be.

If all that I could have was a double edge, it would be a chain-saw.:D


Hook

[Wanderer]

The only double edged blade I would endorse would be a push daggar. You will be checking with your live hand while fighting. If you blade gets blocked you will cut yourself with a double edged blade. If you don't believe it get a trainer and put two different color lip sticks on each side. Put on a white t-shirt and do a little force on force. You will find you cut yourself.

Are you talking about reverse grip? I can understand that, but not regular grip cutting oneself.

[Harry Tuttle]

i keep an AR15 M7 Bayonet in my tool rack on my bench

it stays sharp and gets used for everything
and its always where i left it

i was using it as a reamer the other night
the barrel ring makes a nice thumb rest

Bushmaster has it for 30 bucks
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/accessories/gc-bayoscabkit.asp