For FFL's or those that know the laws, Shipping a handgun to the factory for repair.


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Rule3
August 30, 2011, 04:13 PM
I have searched the BAFT and Brady web sites and can not find the answer.

If a non license person (customer) has the FFL he purchased the gun from, ship the gun to the manufacturer( as they have better shipping rates) for warranty repair, as the company will not issue a call tag (shipping pick up).

The gun is fixed and sent back to the FFL.

When the gun was sent by the FFL it was entered in the book. When the gun is returned to the FFL, does this constitute a transfer and therefore a 4473 form must be completed for the customer to have the gun returned to him?

If a individual ships the gun via common carrier (and pays the big money:eek: for 2 day air) the firearm will be shipped back to the individual and no forms needed)

In looking through the FAQ on the ATF site, if a gun is given to a gunsmith a 4473 need not be completed, but is that because the individual (not a licensee) gave the Gunsmith the firearm?

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CoRoMo
August 30, 2011, 04:41 PM
When the gun is returned to the FFL, does this constitute a transfer and therefore a 4473 form must be completed for the customer to have the gun returned to him?
Yes, you'll have to do the 4473/NICS thing to get your gun back.
In looking through the FAQ on the ATF site, if a gun is given to a gunsmith a 4473 need not be completed, but is that because the individual (not a licensee) gave the Gunsmith the firearm?
If the gunsmith doesn't transfer the firearm out to anyone else, you can pick it back up from him without the 4473/NICS stuff.

skipjack
August 30, 2011, 05:54 PM
No 4473 is needed to return a firearm to a customer from
repair. That is assuming that the firearm is returned to
the individual who brought it to the ffl to have it repaired.

Rule3
August 30, 2011, 06:26 PM
That is certainly correct.I've received dozens of firearms back from manufacturer repair directly to my home.
That is a different situation. I have also when I shipped the gun myself and it was shipped back to me at home. This involves a FFL as mention in the OP.

NavyLCDR
August 30, 2011, 07:01 PM
Yes, you'll have to do the 4473/NICS thing to get your gun back.

Nope. No 4473/NICS required. The firearm was delivered to the FFL for the sole purpose of repair/customization. Therefore the repaired firearm or a suitable replacement may be returned to the original owner with no 4473/NICS required. It does not matter if the first FFL sent the gun to a second FFL for the work to be done.

I know this (besides the fact that is what the law says) because I purchased a handgun in Washington as a gift for my wife who was also a Washington resident. At the time neither of us had Washington ID cards or DLs because I am in the military and we are both exempt from obtaining Washington DLs. I bought the handgun on my Military ID card and orders. We had to return the handgun back to Taurus for repair and chose to use the gun store to do it.

Since my wife was the owner of the pistol, the Washington dealer took the gun from her, gave her a receipt in her name. We asked if her lack of Washington ID and no military status would be a problem getting the gun back. The dealer said no because no paperwork would be required. The Washington dealer sent the gun in, got the gun back, gave it back to my wife with no paperwork required, not even a problem that she did not have a Washington DL or ID.

This was Sportsmans Warehouse, BTW, a fairly large chain store, not just a mom and pop gun shop.

razorback2003
August 30, 2011, 07:30 PM
The gun should be sent by the manufacturer back to your house after it is fixed, unless there is some state law that prohibits this.

You do not need an FFL to say FedEx a handgun back and forth from yourself to Glock. Glock can FedEx the gun directly back to you without dealing with an FFL.

UPS and FedEx require you to send handguns by overnight. An individual can't send a handgun through USPS. You can send long guns through regular mail, UPS, or FedEx ground. I like to insure my firearms that I ship.

SMMAssociates
August 31, 2011, 04:59 AM
Couple points....

Sometimes you can just send a part back - like a slide.... It appears (the ATF folks have their own rules) that only the serialized portion of the gun is considered a firearm, and requires special handling. This may or may not matter, depending on what needs to be done.

FedEx and UPS most likely require an adult signature to deliver the gun to your home. I always loved to come home on Friday night and find a "we've got a package for you" note on the door, with no way to get to it until Monday.... Your dealer's hours are probably better, and there even may be an adult there, too....

(Except the time Colt sent a gun back to my dealer for me, and the dealer didn't notice my name on it.... :( Heck of a time finding it....)

UPS "satellite" stores won't take firearms. They don't want the responsibility because the employees aren't theirs.

FedEx/Kinkos refused me the one time I tried, although their web site (and rule book) said it was OK. The countergal at Kinko's didn't want to discuss it - just gave me a map to their terminal. They may have changed that now, but at the time, I got an apology from FedEx.

Here in OH, the UPS Terminal's a CPZ, too, if my sources are correct. I haven't been there for years. The FedEx terminal wasn't when I was out there, but that may have changed.

The only reason for this "panic overnight shipment" rule is to get the gun OUT of their system as quickly as possible, and to avoid the possibility that it'd end up in the USPS (which FedEx does for some low-level shipments).

The dealer, btw, does not need a 4473 or NICS check to return the gun to you. Might be an issue if you sent the wife in, or something like that, though.

Regards,

CoRoMo
August 31, 2011, 09:58 AM
Nope. No 4473/NICS required. ...
...
I purchased a handgun in Washington as a gift for my wife... return the handgun back to Taurus for repair and chose to use the gun store to do it. ...got the gun back, gave it back to my wife with no paperwork required...

Dang me. Rather than reading the law, I took the word of our noble and resident FFL member here. I read your same account, from a thread back in March, in the same thread where he stated that his AFT Industry Operations Investigator informed him that the 4473/NICS is in fact required.

One thing that this obviously illustrates is that regardless of the law, the dealer might in fact decide that he's going to require the 4473/NICS for the gun's retrieval.

9mmepiphany
August 31, 2011, 12:46 PM
I think some of you may be mis-reading the OP...part of it was that the OP was a bit convoluted and there is a lot of information there to be digested.

1. The OP bought a gun that needed warranty work.
2. The manufacturer declined to cover shipping

~While he could have shipped it to the manufacture, via common carrier, and had it returned to directly to him, he chose not to follow that route. He chose to have his FFL, from whom he had purchased the gun, ship it for him and take advantage of the reduced shipping rate available to the FFL.

3. He took the gun to his FFL
4. The FFL shipped it to the Manufacturer
5. The Manufacturer would correctly return the gun to the party who shipped it to them (the FFL)
6. The FFL would have returned the gun to the OP

The requirement of doing an additional 4473 form would be up to the FFL and the difference would be if:

1. He was taking the gun in for repair...and utilizing the manufacturer for that repair - no additional 4473 form.
2. He transferred the gun into his possession and shipped it...as he would do when a customer would use him to ship to another FFL in a sale..., received the gun back from the Manufacturer and transferred it back to the OP - 4473 form required.

The difference would have been as simple as the difference between 1) "I'd like my gun repaired, it is still under warranty" and 2) "I want you to send this gun to the Manufacturer for me for warranty work...so that I can save on shipping cost."

It sounds like the OP either did not make it clear what he wanted or the FFL did not understand that it was only coming back to the store for repair. In any event, it seems a procedure was utilized which just made it more complicated than it should have been

Rule3
August 31, 2011, 04:37 PM
I think some of you may be mis-reading the OP...part of it was that the OP was a bit convoluted and there is a lot of information there to be digested.

1. The OP bought a gun that needed warranty work.
2. The manufacturer declined to cover shipping

~While he could have shipped it to the manufacture, via common carrier, and had it returned to directly to him, he chose not to follow that route. He chose to have his FFL, from whom he had purchased the gun, ship it for him and take advantage of the reduced shipping rate available to the FFL.

3. He took the gun to his FFL
4. The FFL shipped it to the Manufacturer
5. The Manufacturer would correctly return the gun to the party who shipped it to them (the FFL)
6. The FFL would have returned the gun to the OP

The requirement of doing an additional 4473 form would be up to the FFL and the difference would be if:

1. He was taking the gun in for repair...and utilizing the manufacturer for that repair - no additional 4473 form.
2. He transferred the gun into his possession and shipped it...as he would do when a customer would use him to ship to another FFL in a sale..., received the gun back from the Manufacturer and transferred it back to the OP - 4473 form required.

The difference would have been as simple as the difference between 1) "I'd like my gun repaired, it is still under warranty" and 2) "I want you to send this gun to the Manufacturer for me for warranty work...so that I can save on shipping cost."

It sounds like the OP either did not make it clear what he wanted or the FFL did not understand that it was only coming back to the store for repair. In any event, it seems a procedure was utilized which just made it more complicated than it should have been
You Sir are correct. I perhaps should have worded my question more to the point or simply.

The bottom line after speaking with out local ATF agent is this:

Since the gun was returned for warranty and then returned back to me (the owner) it only needed to be recorded in the bound book and NO 4473 or background check was needed. This falls under the FAQ of the Gunsmith rules.

natman
September 1, 2011, 03:18 AM
Guns returned after repair do not require a 4473 or NICS. You can send the gun directly to the manufacturer / gunsmith and he can ship back it directly to you. Or if you bring the gun an FFL, he will log it in, log it out when he ships it to the manufacturer / gunsmith, log it back in when it returns and finally log it out when returned to directly to you.

FFLs often maintain a separate bound book for repairs since a repair requires 4 log entries instead of the usual 2 for guns kept in stock.

Rule3
September 1, 2011, 10:55 AM
Guns returned after repair do not require a 4473 or NICS. You can send the gun directly to the manufacturer / gunsmith and he can ship back it directly to you. Or if you bring the gun an FFL, he will log it in, log it out when he ships it to the manufacturer / gunsmith, log it back in when it returns and finally log it out when returned to directly to you.

FFLs often maintain a separate bound book for repairs since a repair requires 4 log entries instead of the usual 2 for guns kept in stock.


Well that adds a new "twist" to this whole situation.:)

The ATF agent I spoke with did not mention the 4 log entries, just that it had to be noted in the bound book out for repair and logged in when returned.
But if there is a way to duplicate things, the Gov't will certainly find a way.:rolleyes:

9mmepiphany
September 1, 2011, 12:18 PM
Well that adds a new "twist" to this whole situation.:)

The ATF agent I spoke with did not mention the 4 log entries, just that it had to be noted in the bound book out for repair and logged in when returned.
But if there is a way to duplicate things, the Gov't will certainly find a way.:rolleyes:
Not really if you think it through.

He would have to log it in when he receives it from you to explain why it was in his possession. He would have to log it out to you after it was returned to him from the manufacturer to explain why it was no longer in his possession.

When they audit an FFL's books, every gun in the shop must be entered in the book and any gun that had been previously entered and no longer there must have been logged out

natman
September 1, 2011, 12:34 PM
Well that adds a new "twist" to this whole situation.:)

The ATF agent I spoke with did not mention the 4 log entries, just that it had to be noted in the bound book out for repair and logged in when returned.
But if there is a way to duplicate things, the Gov't will certainly find a way.:rolleyes:

You don't have to maintain a separate repair book; you could co-mingle your repairs with your stock. The problem is that you then have no good way of determining what the status is of the repair gun. There might be lots of guns going in and out of stock between the time the gun gets logged out on the way to be repaired and the time it gets logged back in again. With the four entry system you find the gun in the log and you have the entire history in front of you in one place.

Another advantage is that one of the things the auditors look for is guns that came in and went out in less than 10 days (the CA waiting period). Since the repair guns can legally go out in less than 10 days, having them in a different place makes the audit go more smoothly. And a smooth audit is worth the trouble.

Rule3
September 1, 2011, 07:15 PM
Yes, I agree with the above two replies. Log in when received by me, log out when mailed. Log in when received back from factory and log out when returned to me.

Anyway. Problem soved and all is well.:) How the FFL logs things is up to him.

My main concern was that a 4473 and background check/call did not have to be done.

For future reference or late night reading:)

Page 5 of the PDF (page 3 on the actual document)

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-15.pdf

The long version:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

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