Don't like airweight snubs.


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MUSICALGUNNUT45
August 30, 2011, 09:11 PM
Am I the only one who really doesn't care for the new airweight smith and wesson snub nose revolvers. I've always thought they were just too light. I have a smith and wesson model. 60 made in the late 70s and it has some weight to it but its not like its pulling your pants down when you carry it. Its heavy enough to obsorb some recoil and light enough to carry comfortably. I just never got the practical use of having something thats as light as the airweights are, does anyone else agree

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jimmyraythomason
August 30, 2011, 09:15 PM
I just never got the practical use of having something thats as light as the airweights are, does anyone else agree I don't(agree,that is). I love the lighter weight snubbies. They are so light I forget I'm carrying.

Arkansas Paul
August 30, 2011, 09:23 PM
The hardest recoiling gun I've ever shot was a scandium Smith with full throttle .357 loads. It doubled in weight when loaded. That being said, I love how light they are. They are for concealed carry, and they're perfect for it. If something goes down and you need your sidearm, you're not going to be worrying about recoil. Just one fellers opinion.

Rexster
August 30, 2011, 09:29 PM
Airweights are fine. It is the Airlites I dislike. There is a difference. This assumes .38 Special, max, as I do not believe in punishing what is left of my right thumb's base joint.

My usually minimum carry guns are solid stainless steel SP101 Rugers; the aluminum-framed S&W snubby is only for occasional, specialized circumstances.

243winxb
August 30, 2011, 09:32 PM
Retired my M60, love the 10oz 337PD in 38spec. Recoil is high, but carries well.

sixgunner455
August 30, 2011, 09:44 PM
Like my Airweight, don't wanna shoot an Airlight. Would like to get a nice 1970-ish model 60 someday. :D How's that?

Snowbandit
August 30, 2011, 09:46 PM
My model 340 is the best concealed carry gun I've ever had. Not much fun for practice so I mostly practice with my model 640. I still try to shoot 50-100 a month with the 340 though. That should be plenty.

steelbird
August 30, 2011, 09:55 PM
Musicalgunnut 45 -
You've got someone here who agrees with you- I'm not a fan of the lightweight guns in general, be they revolver or semi-auto. They always seem to jump too much in my hands; I like the extra weight to help control the energy coming out of the gun ( muzzle flip, recoil, etc. ). Some have no problem, I find that I do. I am happy to trade light weight for more control.

Owen Sparks
August 30, 2011, 10:02 PM
I don't like snubs in general. Once the barrel shrinks below 3" the sight radius is just too short.

csa77
August 30, 2011, 10:14 PM
I love airlight snubs, I have a S&W 340pd hammerless its gotta be the best concealed carry gun of all time IMO. so small so light and chambers 357, cant ask for better.

MUSICALGUNNUT45
August 30, 2011, 10:25 PM
Yeah well snubs are designed for ranges where if you have to use the sights you probably shouldn't be handling firearms.

antiquus
August 30, 2011, 10:30 PM
I looked for a year and a half, and finally found a 242 for less than $400. Not LNIB, but it was going to be a daily carry so a little surface damage is going to pile up slowly.

Carries great, typical S&W trigger very close to my 686, shoots great, heavy enough that staying on target isn't hard, 2.5" barrel is snubbie enough without loosing too much to very short barrel, long enough sight radius to be aimed, and 7 shots is enough.

jon86
August 30, 2011, 10:34 PM
I like my airweight very much. I've never fired a 13 oz scandium 357, so I don't know how they recoil, but I can shoot my 38+p all day.

fastbolt
August 31, 2011, 04:19 AM
Folks have to find what works best for them.

I came late to the Airweights. I'd stopped carrying a couple of Charter Arms .44 Bulldog's and an early SP101 DAO because they became too heavy for pocket holster carry, switching to a 649 Bodyguard .38 Spl for that role. My previous steel 36 had a 3" barrel and I wanted something just a bit shorter. (Okay, the Bulldog's also had some other problems I finally tired of dealing with, but that's another topic.)

Eventually even the Bodyguard started to noticeably sag in some of my pocket carry situations. I returned to carrying larger revolvers and pistols, because if I was going to carry a belt gun, I might as well return to my medium frame 6-shot revolvers and Colt Combat Commander. Those turned into full-size and compact aluminum-framed pistols after a while, but eventually I again wanted something lighter and even a bit smaller than a compact alloy pistol.

One day I finally decided to see why the Airweights were apparently becoming popular again, so I ordered a 642 just after the -1's were released and being shipped. I immediately noticed a big difference between my older 649 and the new 642-1 when pocketing the Airweight. Nice.

Being a long time revolver shooter, and having owned a couple of steel J's, I found the DAO trigger manageable. Being a long time Magnum revolver shooter, I found the felt recoil & controllability to be fine for me. I refocused on my revolver skills ... and I've never looked back.

Nowadays I own a pair of 642-1's (I like them), a 37 DAO and a pair of M&P 340's (with & without the lock) ... and that original 649. The Airweights get the bulk of the carry duties.

Someday I may pick up a nickel 40, just to have another steel J-frame, but I've also thought of keeping my eye out for a LNIB 638 Airweight (made before the ILS was incorporated, but after it became rated for +P), if only to complement my all-stainless steel version of the Bodyguard series.

I guess you could say I've come to like the diminutive 5-shot wheelguns. ;)

Now, I certainly wouldn't try to imply that short-barreled 5-shot revolvers were suitable for everyone, let alone the Airweight & Airlite models. The very attributes which make the little J's so useful and handy for lawful concealed carry also make them harder to shoot. Even skilled shooters of larger revolvers often find the smaller & lighter 5-shot models difficult to shoot well ... and then even, some folks who find the steel J's to work well enough for them find the Airweights & lighter Ti/Sc models too difficult to shoot well enough to suit their needs or desires. I tend to dislike the Airlites, myself, but that's more because of the titanium cylinders than the increase in felt recoil. Different strokes, right?

The J's can be very accurate in the hands of a skilled and experienced shooter who takes the time to master them, but even then the type of ammunition selected can make for a difference which becomes important among users. Some like standard pressure ammunition, and some find they can still do well with +P (in the models rated for +P, of course). Some don't mind the models chambered in .357 Magnum, but then the difference between the steel and the aluminum models may make a significant difference in someone's selection ... and maybe even breaking the aluminum Magnum models down further regarding whether it has a steel or titanium cylinder.

Like I said, different strokes.

The good thing is that S&W makes enough of a variety nowadays that just about anyone interested in a 5-shot revolver can probably find something which interests them and suits their needs. :)

ColtPythonElite
August 31, 2011, 04:30 AM
I just never got the practical use of having something thats as light as the airweights are, does anyone else agree

I find the practical use pretty easy to understand....They are great defensive weapons that can be carried easily. Do I want one to go target shooting at the range with? No. Do I like having one in my front pocket for protection? Yes.

griz1
August 31, 2011, 05:11 AM
I have a S&W 640 all steel and I love it. It weights 19 oz. and I think that is perfect for daily carry. Its the 38 special only. Don't need 357 mag. and if I do I have Sp101 3 inch and S&W M65 3 inch. But the 640 is my main carry gun. I'm like you and don't see all the hype of the lightweights. May be for some but not me.

1911Tuner
August 31, 2011, 05:59 AM
And again we're talkin' about target accuracy and recoil with a gun that is designed for use at breath-sniffin' distance...likely in the dark...probably fired frantically with one hand at hip level. A gun designed and intended to be carried a lot and seldom shot. An emergency tool that will...due to its weight and bulk...most likely be there when one finds oneself up to one's crotch on crocodiles with shooting as the only option to extract oneself from the fray.

I mean...really...how much practice does one need in order to press the muzzle against a belly and pull the trigger? How accurate does it need to be...or how accurate does one need to be with such a gun? It would serve just as well without sights at all. It would serve just as well if it wouldn't keep five shots on a pie-plate at 15 yards from a machine rest.

bdb benzino
August 31, 2011, 06:46 AM
I love Airweights!! I have 2 J frames, a 638 and a 642, and one K frame a model 12. All of them are more than accurate enough and sweet to carry. Count me in as a fan!!

TwoWheelFiend
August 31, 2011, 08:48 AM
My brother just picked up a smith 637 (i think) its one of the airweight .38's and its a blast to shoot. I've carried it a few times and you do forget it is there.

4thHorseman
August 31, 2011, 08:53 AM
I recently purchase a S&W Night Guard. Scandium and shoots 44 special ammo. I guess it classifies as a snubby with a 2.5 barrel. The 44 shoots very good from the L frame and I just love it. I used to carry a Wilson, now it it is the S&W NG :)

memphisjim
August 31, 2011, 09:05 AM
I have none but do like the idea. And I will own one as soon as a 9mm model is made

Guillermo
August 31, 2011, 09:11 AM
Super light snub nosed revolvers are very popular with some folks.
Usually those people do not practice with the gun enough to shoot it well.

Personally I am not a fan.

amd6547
August 31, 2011, 09:24 AM
I picked up this Bodyguard Airweight a while back, and find both easy to carry and easy to shoot. I practice with standard 38spl ammo, but I have also fired a minimum ammount of Remington +P SWCHP, my carry load, which is no problem to shoot at all.
I disagree with the opinions stated here that the snubs are only suited to bad breath distance. Any pistol I carry gets exercised out to longer range.
The first range trip I made with this Bodyguard, I started out at close range. Then I moved ot to 25yds. Finally, I took a crack at the 10" round steel plates my club has at 40yds...no problem hitting those repeatedly.
The S&W snubs will surprise you with their accuracy if you apply the fundamentals. If you don't, and shoot it as if it is inaccurate...it will be.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/amd6547/DSC01589.jpg

doc540
August 31, 2011, 09:35 AM
Sold all my lightweight Smith's and now carry Colt alloy D frames (Agent/Cobra).

Light enough for carry, but heavy enough to control recoil.

Problem solved.

Guillermo
August 31, 2011, 09:41 AM
Interestingly enough Doc...the Cobra is as light or lighter than an airweight J-frame. But the grip is large enough to control it.

(BTW...I too carry D Frames...love em)

PRM
August 31, 2011, 10:09 AM
The hardest recoiling gun I've ever shot was a scandium Smith with full throttle .357 loads.

I don't shoot .357s in any of my J frames for that reason. Even my .357 Model 60 only gets 38+Ps and standard velocity .38s when I have them.

I'm not a fan of the alloy guns, but probably for different reasons than most have stated. The weight difference is not a factor for me. As I have gotten older, I like stainless steel better. Easier to keep and if the finish gets marred, its easy and cheap to fix.

Andrew Wyatt
August 31, 2011, 10:46 AM
I don't think a j-frame really has a place in a world where the PM-9 and other autos that compact exist.

you gain a lot in capability with a PM-9, and gain little, if any, weight.

Victor69
August 31, 2011, 10:48 AM
I also don't like alloy frame guns.Rather have the strength of all steel.http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz95/VictorCastle/Brothers2.jpg

bgr2014
August 31, 2011, 10:52 AM
I personally like the air weights, I have a mod.642 in my pocket now. I never leave home without it. I use the +p loads. It's only for personal protection, and it is so easy to conceal. My wife and several family members also carry them. some with the pink grips. I sometimes forget it's there, got to the court house door saw the sigh and had to go back and lock it in the car. At short range it works fine. If I want to shoot at longer range,I'll use my 1911 Colt, if it's longer range I'll use my Ruger 44 mag with 2x scope (try sticking that in your front pocket) it boils down to carry what fits the need. Also have Ruger MarkIII Target, 38 Short Colt and old H&R 22 contvertable lr/mag. But those don't fit my carry needs.

Lucky Derby
August 31, 2011, 11:01 AM
First there is nothing new about the airweights. They have been around for about 60 years. Airlites have only been around for about 15 years, so while significantly newer, I wouldn't call them new.
I own one of each, a M38 Airweight Bodyguard and a M342Ti Airlite Centennial. These are purpose built weapons. No, they are not fun to shoot. They carry very well, even in the pocket of shorts or sweat pants only held up by an elastic band.
I have actually found that the opposite is true. I find the weight of a standard steel J frame to be more than I want to pocket carry, but if I am going to carry on a belt, I would just as soon have a larger, heavier weapon, such as a 3"-4" K frame or a 3" Ruger SP101. (I will admit to wanting a 3" M36-1)
So we all have are opinions and feelings on the matter.

Lucky Derby
August 31, 2011, 11:08 AM
I don't think a j-frame really has a place in a world where the PM-9 and other autos that compact exist.

you gain a lot in capability with a PM-9, and gain little, if any, weight.
Really? While that PM9 is a good little gun, (I owned one) it will jam (and so will any other auto) if fired from inside a coat pocket. It becomes a single shot. Also an auto can easily go out of battery if you are forced to push the muzzle into some street urchin's gut. The revolver, on the other hand, will reliably work in either of these scenerios.
While I would never fault anyone for choosing a small auto, as they do have thier advantages. They are slimmer and easier to hide. Some of them are easier to shoot well.

PRM
August 31, 2011, 11:28 AM
I don't think a j-frame really has a place in a world where the PM-9 and other autos that compact exist.


If that were true ~ they wouldn't be making them.

Ratshooter
August 31, 2011, 12:46 PM
I got around the too light/too much recoil by finding an S&W 431PD in 32 mag. Weighs about 13oz., six shots and has reasonably light recoil. Drop it in your pocket and forget its there. Plus the ammo is light compared to 38 special loads.

Andrew Wyatt
August 31, 2011, 01:26 PM
Really? While that PM9 is a good little gun, (I owned one) it will jam (and so will any other auto) if fired from inside a coat pocket. It becomes a single shot. Also an auto can easily go out of battery if you are forced to push the muzzle into some street urchin's gut. The revolver, on the other hand, will reliably work in either of these scenerios.
While I would never fault anyone for choosing a small auto, as they do have thier advantages. They are slimmer and easier to hide. Some of them are easier to shoot well.

A revolver can be prevented from firing if you get a finger between the hammer and frame, or grip the cylinder tightly enough.

The issues you presented are unlikely to come up, and even more unlikely if you remember that those situations cause a problem and take steps to avoid those situations.
Autos have a longer sight radius and better trigger than revolvers. they can be reloaded faster, carry more rounds, and they're smaller. Those benefit you every time you use the gun.

Onward Allusion
August 31, 2011, 01:52 PM
Those ultra light snubs in 38 special are snappy even with target loads, but I guess it would not be noticeable with the adrenalin flowing. For those who are really recoil sensitive, they can always load 'em with 38 LC if they can find them.

Guillermo
August 31, 2011, 02:23 PM
I have a PM9
good little gun
I carry it when I can't carry a revolver.

Just don't shoot it as well

fastbolt
August 31, 2011, 02:25 PM
Whenever the subject of inherent, or at least potential, reliability comes up when discussing the smallest of revolvers and pistols, I think back to over 20 year's worth of time watching folks shoot a variety of each in practice or qual courses of fire.

Ignoring the problems exhibited by .22's & .25's when it comes to really diminutive pocket pistols, the .32's, .380's & small 9's offered more feeding problems and general stoppages for their user's than the little revolvers.

Every once in a while you'd come across someone who didn't seem well practiced with their snub revolvers, and they might short stroke the DA/DAO trigger for a subsequent shot, but that's happened with some folks using one or another of those smaller 9's with their really long DAO triggers, too.

The revolvers seem more tolerant of budget ammunition issues, too.

Grip stability, especially when some amount of stress seems to be exhibited by a shooter, or their attention may be distracted from their grip, may be an issue for some folks when shooting really small pistols. Revolvers sometimes seem to be less sensitive to shooter grip stability issues.

These are things that probably some of the many things which ought to be carefully considered by each potential owner & user of either design when they're considering which will best serve their needs.

Granted, there are always going to be those folks who claim their little pistols have been perfect for them, and that's certainly to their advantage. Good for them. They deserve no less.

It's just that overall, the folks who found their small revolvers to be less problematic when completing courses-of-fire (not standing around making leisurely, slow-fire shots) outnumbered those who had similarly satisfactory experiences with their pocket pistols. Some of the problems experienced by small pistol owners were easily identifiable as shooter-induced (grip interfering with slide movement), some as maintenance (not cleaned or lubricated; weak magazine springs, etc) and some as ammunition problems (power to cycle the slide; sensitive to bullet nose profile). Things like that.

Then there were those folks who really liked their small pistols, but handled and shot their small revolvers better over the same courses-of-fire ... and vice versa, of course. ;)

I try to never get too involved in someone's choice of firearm being lawfully carried as a dedicated defensive weapon. It's not something that's going to have to work for me, after all, but for whoever it is that's doing the choosing.

I look more toward skillset and mindset issues than simple equipment issues and selection.

In more recent years, as the J-frames have seemed to catch fire in the imagination of younger shooters, I've seen some folks who had bought one or another of the newest 5-shot wheelguns for either off-duty or secondary weapon usage. The majority of these younger folks learned their handgunning skills on pistols, not revolvers. It could make for some frustration as they had to relearn a lot of their foundation skillset when it came to grip, trigger control and follow-through on sight picture or sight alignement (even when just indexing the weapon for very clsoe range shots).

I still miss the days when cops learned their handgunning skills using DA revolvers ... (or at least came to LE work with revolver skills). :D

I'll say a couple of other things before I stop rambling ...

When I was doing some shooting with a couple of the then-new .500 S&W Magnums (4" & 6"), I found the recoil to be heavy, but the recoil impulse to be less painful, overall, compared to when I was shooting one of the Ti/Sc 5-shot .357 Magnums. Sure, I demonstrated I could make fast and accurate doubles and triple using the little beast out to 10yds, but it punished my hand much more than the bigger .500 Magnum.

Although my pair of M&P 340's are chambered in Magnum, and I've used various Magnum loads in it (for both quals, practice and to find those which didn't exhibit signs of bullet pull in my gun) ... I carry one or another of the +P loads I favor in my other +P rated Airweights, not Magnum. As well as I can shoot them with the Magnum loads, I can shoot them faster (and longer) using the +P loads.

That's where I draw the line for myself. Everyone else has their own opportunity to develop and express a preference for where and how they may choose to accept compromise for a really small, lightweight and conveniently carried defensive handgun.

BigG
August 31, 2011, 02:32 PM
Am I the only one who really doesn't care for the new airweight smith and wesson snub nose revolvers. I've always thought they were just too light. I have a smith and wesson model. 60 made in the late 70s and it has some weight to it but its not like its pulling your pants down when you carry it. Its heavy enough to obsorb some recoil and light enough to carry comfortably. I just never got the practical use of having something thats as light as the airweights are, does anyone else agree
I still love the S&W alloy snubs, particularly the Centennial type.

Thaddeus Jones
August 31, 2011, 02:43 PM
I don't like the airweights either. My brother let me shoot one he owns. My hand was stinging after 5-shots. How anyone practices much with those is beyond me.

I picked up a 640-1. Stout with 357, but I can do a 50 round range session and still feel my thumb. :) TJ

230therapy
August 31, 2011, 02:57 PM
Yeah well snubs are designed for ranges where if you have to use the sights you probably shouldn't be handling firearms.

There is so much wrong with that statement it's amazing. The only one that really matters is the poster's failure to think about the topic.

If the shooter cannot hit out to 25 yards with a carry gun, then he or she needs practice.

It's a very different problem if the gun is not capable of hitting at 25 yards. Small snub nosed revolvers are capable of making hits at such distances.

The shooter needs to seriously think about the nature of self-defense if he or she is carrying a gun that is not capable of hits at 25 yards and/or he or she cannot make hits with that gun.

End reality check.

Jonah71
August 31, 2011, 03:01 PM
I think I'm still a bit resistant to change. It took years before I'd carry a gun that wasn't a revolver and more years to accept handguns with plastic frames. I still like my old '74 Cheif's Special with Pac grips. I can fire it until it gets too hot to remove the brass without any discomfort to my hand. The only disadvantage is the carry weight and I can live with that.

230therapy
August 31, 2011, 03:09 PM
I personally like some weight to my revolvers. I see no need for an extremely light gun, even for pocket carry.

Guillermo
August 31, 2011, 03:18 PM
How anyone practices much with those is beyond me.


most people don't...that is the problem

Onward Allusion
August 31, 2011, 03:25 PM
If the shooter cannot hit out to 25 yards with a carry gun, then he or she needs practice.

25 yards with a snub at the range, sure. Do-able.

25 yards with a snub in a self-defense situation? Not so do-able and will probably land you in prison if you did.

19-3Ben
August 31, 2011, 03:41 PM
I bought a 642 about a year ago. Fired 10 rounds out of it and hated it. It was sold immediately. I know that's heresy here on THR where the 642 is the greatest carry gun ever invented. But it was just plain painful to me. And I'm not averse to recoil. Double Tap's 158gr .357mag our of my SP101 was just plain fun.
Mild .38s out of the 642 were painful, and not fun at all.

I'm just not a snubby guy. Give me my Ruger LCP over an LCR any day. The LCP points naturally for me, I am more accurate with it than with a snubby, and the recoil is not bad at all. I loved my SP101 3"bbl, but wouldnt want a shorter one. Noooo thank you.

Axel Larson
August 31, 2011, 04:13 PM
I like the airwight I have but I have not shot +p loads through it yet. It carry's well and even though I have a holster for it now I usually just stuff it in a pocket. Much nicer than my 1911 for carrying.

CharlesT
August 31, 2011, 04:38 PM
Held the airlight .44 magnum.....

Could not imagine shooting it.

Stormin.40
August 31, 2011, 05:29 PM
And I'm not averse to recoil. Double Tap's 158gr .357mag our of my SP101 was just plain fun. Mild .38s out of the 642 were painful, and not fun at all.

Really?

My 642 is painful with Buffalo Bore's +P 158 grain lead bullets, this was the only ammunition I have run throw my 642 that I consider painful, I still choose to carry it. I have shot a number of different manufacturers +P ammo and find it is reasonably easy to shoot let alone "mild .38s".

I like the Airweight revolvers for carry and even for the range. It does take practice but we all like to shoot so why not practice. There are other choices and I won't fault anyone for choosing a heavier and therefore easier gun to shoot.

amd6547
August 31, 2011, 06:41 PM
If you find the Airweight "painful", you most likely are not holding it correctly.
"...25 yards with a snub in a self-defense situation? Not so do-able and will probably land you in prison if you did...."--What nonsense. I can see it now..."oh, that bad guy 25yds away is shooting at me...I better run and hope he is as bad a shot as me..I read on the Internet I can't shoot that far..."

Shienhausser
August 31, 2011, 06:46 PM
I buy/keep at any given time only a few guns at any given time and shoot them all A LOT so for me it's more peace of mind as far as durability. When I say "a lot" I mean weekly trips of 250 rounds.

Steel feel better to me when I shoot that much and I for the most have to worry about it blowing up in my face. I also doubt I'd get as much range time with a 12oz revolver.

788Ham
August 31, 2011, 06:57 PM
SP 101, 3.06" barrel, about as light of a revolver I want to shoot with +P 38's and .357's. A tad heavy on the barrel end, but thats what I wanted when I bought it. I had an Airweight, too punishing.

ColeK
August 31, 2011, 07:30 PM
Personally, I like my J-Frames and have used them for years about 30+.
I have found that I shoot the newer M637-1's better than I shoot the older M36's.
I think it because of the newer grips.

Pict
August 31, 2011, 07:37 PM
I've put a couple thousand rounds through my 642 so far. I like it enough that I got a 438 to keep it company. No problems with three-inch circles at thirty feet, and that's good enough for me.

foghornl
August 31, 2011, 08:07 PM
I fired one of those "Ultra-Light-Taniums" loaded with full-house 357 Mag...ONCE.

My wrist hurt for a week...

ColtPythonElite
August 31, 2011, 08:11 PM
Just today my dad revealed a new S&W Airweight he had just bought and hadn't shot. He had never fired one and doesn't really ever shoot handguns. Within about 2 cylinders full, he was putting all of his shots in a 10" circle at 15 yards...He seemed pleased with it....Like I said he never shoots handguns. I brought a 4" Anaconda and started shooting a washtub sized rock at about 75 yards. He wanted to give it a try. It took him just a few shots to get the hang of it and start banging the rock...A little basic practice goes a long way.

SFCRandall
August 31, 2011, 09:32 PM
I've had a Taurus Ultralight Titanium .38 snub for years and absolutely love it. However, I just upgraded to a S&W 340PD in 357. My experience with the Taurus convinced me these lightwieght carry pieces are a good choice for convenient carry and effective power.

Guillermo
August 31, 2011, 10:04 PM
I just upgraded to a S&W 340PD in 357

a- not sure it is an upgrade...but as long as you are happy...
b- can you put six rounds in a pie plate at 10 feet in 4 seconds or less?
(if so you are a better shot than me...congratulations)

19-3Ben
August 31, 2011, 11:22 PM
Really?

My 642 is painful with Buffalo Bore's +P 158 grain lead bullets, this was the only ammunition I have run throw my 642 that I consider painful, I still choose to carry it. I have shot a number of different manufacturers +P ammo and find it is reasonably easy to shoot let alone "mild .38s".

I like the Airweight revolvers for carry and even for the range. It does take practice but we all like to shoot so why not practice. There are other choices and I won't fault anyone for choosing a heavier and therefore easier gun to shoot.

For every hand there's a glove.

Recoil and "fit" of a gun are very subjective. It's just the way I happened to experience that particular gun. Some find the LCP snappy. Personally, I like it.

To each his own.

oldfool
August 31, 2011, 11:41 PM
all CCW involves some compromises, but when the weight of revolver loaded vs. unloaded is dramatically noticeable, that's just going too far, no matter how comfortable the carry

7 shot 380 derringers already push that pretty hard
I don't want anything 'air' weight in a 38+P or 357
guess I will just have to wait on a recoiless Star Trek phasor pistola... beam me up Scotty !

pintler
September 1, 2011, 12:09 AM
While that PM9 is a good little gun, (I owned one) it will jam (and so will any other auto) if fired from inside a coat pocket

FWIW, a local shooting school had a pocket pistol class. I went to Goodwill and bought a couple of cheap jackets and fired a P9 from the pockets with good results. Without a high speed camera I'm guessing a little here, but I think that the muzzle blast inflates the pocket and keeps the fabric from interfering. In any event, I didn't have any problems until maybe the 25th round. By that time there was a big ragged hole in the pocket, and I tended to push the muzzle thru the hole, letting the ragged hole edges finally get into the action. I only had two jackets, so it's not like I have a huge sample, but I think autos in jacket pockets might work better than you'd think.

Get some $3 jackets and give it a try.

Onward Allusion
September 1, 2011, 12:25 AM
amd6547
If you find the Airweight "painful", you most likely are not holding it correctly.
"...25 yards with a snub in a self-defense situation? Not so do-able and will probably land you in prison if you did...."--What nonsense. I can see it now..."oh, that bad guy 25yds away is shooting at me...I better run and hope he is as bad a shot as me..I read on the Internet I can't shoot that far..."

Yup, absolute nonsense!

Let me re-word a little... A lot of people can't hit crap with at snub at 25 yards at the range. Add to that stress and adrenalin, well snubs are pretty useless to most people at that distance. As for landing in prison...Not many states have stand-your-ground laws outside of the home. One probably has a pretty good chance getting away at 25 yards. Why get into a firefight...with a snub no less? BTW, if you can manage to hit POA at 25 yards with your heart going at 120 bpm using a snub, more power to you. I'm a little more realistic with my own skills.

bgr2014
September 1, 2011, 01:09 AM
My wife has arthuritis in her hands and she shoots her 642 with no problem, however I shoot the +p's in mine and have no problem. The guy that said something about the hammer getting caught, the 642 is DOA and hammerless. Both our's have 2# triggers and shoot very well and easy to conceal.

Victor69
September 1, 2011, 09:44 AM
I could be wrong don't qoute me but I think most gun fights are relatively close like between 7 to 12 feet. When somebody is going to rob you they get close to tell you their intentions, their not going to shout from 25 yards and risk drawing attention to themselves.

USAF_Vet
September 1, 2011, 09:51 AM
Not a fan of snubbies in general. I think I'd dislike a super light weight snubby even more.

Guillermo
September 1, 2011, 10:28 AM
as the inappropriately named OldFool mentioned...concealed carry weapons are a compromise.

(are not all weapons?)

That is why we have a drawer full.

Sometimes the flatness and smallness of a PM9 is great. (mine is in my pocket because I was installing a new toy on the car and was going to be on my side. The flat gun was more comfy)

But the compromise should NEVER go to the point that the gun cannot be shot fast an accurately.

Old Fuff says 5 shots in a pie plate at 5 feet in 5 seconds is a good start.

Can you do that with a .357 snub made of styrofoam?

I can't.

wheelgunslinger
September 1, 2011, 10:32 AM
It would serve just as well if it wouldn't keep five shots on a pie-plate at 15 yards from a machine rest.

Yep. It's for bad breath range, not range plinking.

amd6547
September 1, 2011, 10:41 AM
It is not unusual for an assailant to have an associate at some distance away...maybe a lookout, maybe the getaway driver...Once you have put down the close range threat, you may have to deal with the secondary...Either hitting him directly, or giving him reason not to approach...he may be shooting at you.
I have been shooting hand guns at distances out to 100yds (NOT snubs) for 30+ years. Partly because it is just fun, partly because I carried various handguns backpacking, and always felt the ability to reach out would be useful.
With the snub, hitting a 10" steel plate at 40yds is childs play for me. Were the skill needed, it is much better to have the practice. The snub is capable of the needed accuracy, all it needs is a shooter who can utilize it. Utilizing cover and field positions is all that you need to add to shooting skill.
25yds is nothing...a man can cover that in seconds. A bullet can cover it even faster.

Lucky Derby
September 1, 2011, 11:11 AM
A revolver can be prevented from firing if you get a finger between the hammer and frame, or grip the cylinder tightly enough.

The issues you presented are unlikely to come up, and even more unlikely if you remember that those situations cause a problem and take steps to avoid those situations.
Autos have a longer sight radius and better trigger than revolvers. they can be reloaded faster, carry more rounds, and they're smaller. Those benefit you every time you use the gun.
I am well aware of those limitations. I was pointing out that autos are not perfect either. Also revolvers have a simpler manual of arms, and are probably a better choice for for people who do not, will not spend a lot of time learning how the gun works and practicing with it.

Lucky Derby
September 1, 2011, 11:26 AM
While that PM9 is a good little gun, (I owned one) it will jam (and so will any other auto) if fired from inside a coat pocket

FWIW, a local shooting school had a pocket pistol class. I went to Goodwill and bought a couple of cheap jackets and fired a P9 from the pockets with good results. Without a high speed camera I'm guessing a little here, but I think that the muzzle blast inflates the pocket and keeps the fabric from interfering. In any event, I didn't have any problems until maybe the 25th round. By that time there was a big ragged hole in the pocket, and I tended to push the muzzle thru the hole, letting the ragged hole edges finally get into the action. I only had two jackets, so it's not like I have a huge sample, but I think autos in jacket pockets might work better than you'd think.

Get some $3 jackets and give it a try.
I have tried it. With very different results. 5 jackets from yardsales. Albeit the gun was smaller, so it had less muzzle blast. Tomcat .32. I also think that the design of the jacket might come into play.

Shienhausser
September 1, 2011, 11:38 AM
"Also revolvers have ........................................and are probably a better choice for for people who do not, will not spend a lot of time learning how the gun works and practicing with it."


I would disagree with the not spending a lot of time practicing. IMO revolvers for the most part take more dedication to practice for that DA trigger pull, reloading etc etc. We were looking for a CCW for my mother and considered a revolver but decided not to b/c my family and herself felt that she wouldn't spend the time practicing with it needed to be good.

Simpler yes, easier to get good at, probably not. Again, this is just my opinion. :p

I choose to carry and shoot revolvers b/c I have a desire to use one platform and get very good at it. Before spending a lot of time with them at the range and on the couch I was a rotten shot with a revolver.

Andrew Wyatt
September 1, 2011, 11:39 AM
Also revolvers have a simpler manual of arms, and are probably a better choice for for people who do not, will not spend a lot of time learning how the gun works and practicing with it.

That has not been my experience. It's simpler and easier to teach people to hit things with a Glock 17 or 19 than it is with a model 10, and its certainly easier to teach someone to hit with a glock or other auto, than a model 36 or 37.

Maximumbob54
September 1, 2011, 11:42 AM
I loved my 637 until this:

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x333/Maximumbob54/2011-06-03_19-27-17_347.jpg

S&W fixed it at no cost to me though. But then I found out that with the new barrel rifling they use is the reason my shooting skills with it weren't so hot. If I shoot jacketed ammo it's more accurate than I am. But all my lead bullet ammo just won't work very well in it. I always figured that if I ever needed it then the range I'm shooting it in won't be very far. But it's the leading that was killing accuracy. I would clean it out and just figured it must have something to do with the short barrel that caused it. Now it sets in the safe and the SP101 sits in the nightstand. The extra mass makes shooting most .357's feel like shooting most .38's in the 637. I might go back to her again, but not for a while.

heeler
September 1, 2011, 12:28 PM
I own an older Airweight M37 and like it but I cant shoot this thing for crap.
I can shoot my new little no sights LCP far better.
And my PM9 better by far.
The thing that keeps me from carrying the M37 is I really dont care for IWB carry and they are too long many times,depending on the pants or shorts I use,to pocket carry as the butt handle is constantly peaking out and I live in a state where concealed truely means concealed.
But under the type of scenario 1911Tuner talked about in post 17 all of the lightweight micro guns and revolvers pretty much fit the bill.

Guillermo
September 1, 2011, 12:55 PM
It's simpler and easier to teach people to hit things with a Glock 17 or 19 than it is with a model 10, and its certainly easier to teach someone to hit with a glock or other auto, than a model 36 or 37

could not agree more

harmon rabb
September 1, 2011, 12:57 PM
Am I the only one who really doesn't care for the new airweight smith and wesson snub nose revolvers. I've always thought they were just too light. I have a smith and wesson model. 60 made in the late 70s and it has some weight to it but its not like its pulling your pants down when you carry it. Its heavy enough to obsorb some recoil and light enough to carry comfortably. I just never got the practical use of having something thats as light as the airweights are, does anyone else agree
I hate them because smith puts an embarrassingly bad trigger in them. I love the concept, hate the execution.

harmon rabb
September 1, 2011, 01:00 PM
I don't think a j-frame really has a place in a world where the PM-9 and other autos that compact exist.

you gain a lot in capability with a PM-9, and gain little, if any, weight.
Apples to oranges man. Some prefer a revolver, period. Sometimes those people are very experienced shooters, and just like what they like. Sometimes they're inexperienced shooters and feel a revolver is simpler.

Doesn't matter. Both have their place.

harmon rabb
September 1, 2011, 01:17 PM
I bought a 642 about a year ago. Fired 10 rounds out of it and hated it. It was sold immediately. I know that's heresy here on THR where the 642 is the greatest carry gun ever invented. But it was just plain painful to me. And I'm not averse to recoil. Double Tap's 158gr .357mag our of my SP101 was just plain fun.
Mild .38s out of the 642 were painful, and not fun at all.

I'm just not a snubby guy. Give me my Ruger LCP over an LCR any day. The LCP points naturally for me, I am more accurate with it than with a snubby, and the recoil is not bad at all. I loved my SP101 3"bbl, but wouldnt want a shorter one. Noooo thank you.
i couldn't agree more with you. I really don't like firing any revolver smaller than my SP101.

amd6547
September 1, 2011, 01:27 PM
Funny, because I sold my 3" SP101 to buy the Bodyguard 38 Airweight I have.
However, the SP101 was really replaced by a S&W Model 19 2.5" for snub 357 mag fun.

Andrew Wyatt
September 1, 2011, 02:11 PM
Apples to oranges man.

They're both competing for the same niche. You're confusing the mechanics of the device for the purpose of the device.

pintler
September 1, 2011, 08:06 PM
I have tried it. With very different results. 5 jackets from yardsales. Albeit the gun was smaller, so it had less muzzle blast. Tomcat .32. I also think that the design of the jacket might come into play.

Thanks for the fascinating datapoint. We need to get a grant and do a study :-).

DAdams
September 1, 2011, 09:17 PM
No, don't agree. 13.3 ounce M&P 340 is just about right. Or a 12 ounce Seecamp .380.

mavracer
September 1, 2011, 10:05 PM
No, don't agree.
+1
It's good for a man to know his limitations, but if you can't put 5 rounds in a pie plate at 10 yards in under 4 seconds it's not the snubs fault.

Jaymo
September 1, 2011, 10:42 PM
I prefer steel framed snubs.

JohnhenrySTL
September 1, 2011, 11:04 PM
I never thought I would own some super light modern pocket gun. I realized after attempting to carry my Sig p229 for several years, that there I was better off carrying a gun I would actually carry than having a safe full of combat pistols. I came across a S&W 442 that I really liked. I picked it up less than a month ago for 419. Not only is truly an awesome carry pistol, it has been fun learning to shoot a snub nose DoubleActionOnly revolver.

All of my other pistols have become boring to shoot, I shoot them so well. Well shooting is never actually boring, I will just say that learning to put 10/10 shots in a paper plate at 30 yards with my new gun has been a very fun challenge. I am new to leaving post on the internet. I want to ask a question for people who know, I hope I will be able to track this very thread down to see peoples response. I was wondering if it is ok to shoot my S&W 442 thousands of times without wearing it out? It is a light weight gun, I think it weighs about 15 ounces. It has an aluminum frame.

230therapy
September 2, 2011, 07:37 AM
As for landing in prison...Not many states have stand-your-ground laws outside of the home. One probably has a pretty good chance getting away at 25 yards. Why get into a firefight...with a snub no less? BTW, if you can manage to hit POA at 25 yards with your heart going at 120 bpm using a snub, more power to you. I'm a little more realistic with my own skills.

Is a bad guy's bullet deadly at 25 yards? Are bullets capable of flying 25 yards? Is the good guy under threat of maiming or bodily harm?

If so, how can anyone possibly believe that distance is the primary factor in a conviction? The primary factor, unless politics are involved, is always whether or not the good guy was acting under threat of maiming/grave bodily harm or death (the actual wording for justified self-defense varies by state, but I am using my state's definition). I am not saying the first case couldn't happen (lawyers will argue anything these days), but a good shoot is easier to defend if it comes to a trial.

As for distances: if the shooter does not have confidence that he or she cannot score a hit, do not shoot. Do you know what the sight continuum is? Have you practiced it?

If you cannot shoot 4" groups or smaller on demand at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, and 25 yards with your gun, then you have work to do. Four inches is the standard because it demonstrates proper control of the weapon and accounts for the loss of accuracy due to various factors in a fight.

It seems to me that this entire thread is really about convenience versus shooting performance. I find the attitude of "convenience is paramount in carry" contemptible. This attitude is irresponsible because the guns are more difficult to use under the harsh conditions and bullets always go somewhere. Furthermore, people who refuse to train with their weapon are not thinking through the ramifications of their laziness.

harmon rabb
September 2, 2011, 08:36 AM
They're both competing for the same niche. You're confusing the mechanics of the device for the purpose of the device.
But each has advantages and disadvantages, and it's up to an individual to choose whether they prefer the tradeoffs of a revolver, or the tradeoffs of a semi-auto.

Mind you, I carry a semi-auto 98% of the time, so on a personal level (as in what's right for ME), I'd pick a Kahr PM9 all day long and twice on sunday over a j-frame or LCR. My wife carries a LCR (with the fbi load) because she's always found revolvers to be simpler for her. Whatever, at least she's carrying.

When I do carry a revolver, it's my 3" SP101, loaded with nasty buffalo bore rounds, because I can't justify carrying a revolver without getting something to make up for the diminished capacity. With a small snub you're not getting any ballistic advantages over a small 9 really, but when you move up to something like a SP101 with a bit of barrel length, well, now, your semi-auto better be a 10mm if it wants to keep up. Also, an empty SP101 would still be a pretty nasty impact weapon. :D

PRM
September 2, 2011, 08:48 AM
Four inches is the standard

Whose standard? Nice size group to shoot for at 15 and 25 yards. But who set that as a standard and for what?

One of the commonly used targets for LE qualifications is the TQ 15. The five ring on this target is closer to 8X10.

Smaller groups do show a level of skill under perfect conditions. But I have never heard of a four inch group being a standard.

Stainz
September 2, 2011, 09:35 AM
When my CCW was an AMT DAO Backup in .45 ACP, it certainly was an infrequent pocket piece. Nearly nine years ago, I traded it towards a new 296 - an AirLite-Ti 5-shot .44 Special enclosed hammer 19 oz L-frame. It went with me sporting larger/more comfortable grips in an OWB pancake holster - very infrequently. Then, I got a Mika pocket holster for it. Boot grips back on, it blended into 3 of 4 of my pants' front pockets. Then - I got wise - bought an Airweight J-frame - a 642. It goes, in a similar Mika pocket holster, into any of my pants' front pockets. A store mishap taught me the utility of 24/7 carry - and it's in my pocket as I type this.

The mission for an EDC CCW is to protect your bacon. If you legally can carry - and will 24/7 - a hawg leg, more power to you. In my state, it must be a CCW. The AirLite/Airweight suffice for the mission. Are they my favorite 'snubbies'? Hardly! Put my N-frame SS 2 5/8" PC627 UDR in that role. I'd love to carry that gun - but it needs a 'real' holster and belt... and a large/long coat/jacket/vest to cover it... but what a tack driver!

I feel the Airweight/AirLite series of pocket protectors is a 'necessary evil' - to protect one from evil. I never carried 24/7 before the 642 - proof enough for me.

Stainz

Coltdriver
September 2, 2011, 10:08 AM
I like em because they are so easy to carry. If you want something to shoot at the range, get a steel one.

I don't know how many times anyone else has drawn their concealed carry weapon, my count is zero. That is way over 20 years of carry.

That means a whole lot of carry and no defensive use. Its also a lot of peace of mind and there have been many instances when I was acutely happy to have my airweight on me.

So from a practical perspective, ease of carry becomes my trump card. I have other guns to shoot at the range.

Onward Allusion
September 2, 2011, 12:53 PM
230therapy

Is a bad guy's bullet deadly at 25 yards? Are bullets capable of flying 25 yards? Is the good guy under threat of maiming or bodily harm?All of the above are a "it depends scenario". I'm talking generalities. If a BG is 25 yards away, it would not be prudent to use 1 or more of your 5 shots at that distance. Sure, one may be able to get a pie plate at 50 yards at the range, but let me tell you it is unlikely to happen in a real world situation for most people. maybe you and AMD are the exception but most people can't when their heart is racing. Can it happen, sure, but unlikely with most shooters. If one is not under a direct threat at 25 yards, get the hell out of the situation. I've said this before and I'll say it again - snubs are not meant for those kinds of distances. If you can do it, great - but most people - myself included can't.

If so, how can anyone possibly believe that distance is the primary factor in a conviction? The primary factor, unless politics are involved, is always whether or not the good guy was acting under threat of maiming/grave bodily harm or death (the actual wording for justified self-defense varies by state, but I am using my state's definition). I am not saying the first case couldn't happen (lawyers will argue anything these days), but a good shoot is easier to defend if it comes to a trial.We have differing opinions on this. I would not actively engage if I could get away. At 25 yards, the chances of getting away are a lot better than 7 yards.

As for distances: if the shooter does not have confidence that he or she cannot score a hit, do not shoot. Do you know what the sight continuum is? Have you practiced it?

If you cannot shoot 4" groups or smaller on demand at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, and 25 yards with your gun, then you have work to do. Four inches is the standard because it demonstrates proper control of the weapon and accounts for the loss of accuracy due to various factors in a fight.I now do less than 1" at 10 yards with my 5946. At 25 yards I land everything in a 4" group at POA. With my model 66 I get 1" at 25 yards. Is that good enough? At 50 yards I land all shots in the black on a B-27. Does that mean I'm going to engage at 50 yards? I don't think so and I doubt if I will engage at 25 yards if I could leave the situation. This is doubly true if carrying a snub. BTW, it took me near 10,000 rounds over the course of maybe 2 years to get to that level on my 5946.

It seems to me that this entire thread is really about convenience versus shooting performance. I find the attitude of "convenience is paramount in carry" contemptible. This attitude is irresponsible because the guns are more difficult to use under the harsh conditions and bullets always go somewhere. Furthermore, people who refuse to train with their weapon are not thinking through the ramifications of their laziness.That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, however, what I find questionable is someone who expects everyone else to be at their same skill level, have the same values, or think in their terms, and if others do not, they are labeled as lazy and have contempt directed at them??? Real dang highroad there.

Onward Allusion
September 2, 2011, 12:55 PM
PRM (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=67078)
Whose standard? Nice size group to shoot for at 15 and 25 yards. But who set that as a standard and for what?

One of the commonly used targets for LE qualifications is the TQ 15. The five ring on this target is closer to 8X10.

Smaller groups do show a level of skill under perfect conditions. But I have never heard of a four inch group being a standard.

Exactly my point. Range and real-life bad situations are completely different.

Andrew Wyatt
September 2, 2011, 01:30 PM
It's always better to be more competent than you need to be than less competent than you need to be.

Guillermo
September 2, 2011, 01:52 PM
It's always better to be more competent than you need to be than less competent than you need to be

And it is amazing how little some folks practice...yet they carry.

Scary

Inebriated
September 2, 2011, 02:21 PM
They are for saving your life. Not putting 10k rounds through. If you want that, get a 686 or a 60. The entire concept behind them is to shoot them a couple times at the range with lower power rounds, be good with it's trigger, and to load up to max power and throw it in your pocket on the way out the door. For that, I think they are perfect.

Warp
September 2, 2011, 02:29 PM
I really like my 642.

And I shoot it well. I do take it ot the range and I do shoot it, including with FULL power loads buffalo bore. It is fun to shoot

fastbolt
September 2, 2011, 02:51 PM
Shooting is a perishable skill.

Imagine how much faster the degradation might occur if the original skillset foundation wasn't all that high.

Then imagine introducing a more difficult-to-shoot handgun somewhere along the line without addressing its introduction with additional and/or increased training & practice.

When you start to see language resulting from LE shootings which runs along the lines of it being a dynamic, evolving and chaotic situation ... and then look at the physical & psychological demands that can be placed upon someone when caught in an unexpected situation where they find themselves reacting to the perceived threat of imminent serious injury or death ... the idea of achieving some minimal "acceptable level of demonstrable competence" on a static course-of-fire might not be where some folks would prefer their skillset & mindset to stop developing.

heeler
September 2, 2011, 02:54 PM
Well now,let's see here.
I am a pretty responsible person and do go to the range and shoot my Pistols and rifles a fair amount.
And as of late quite a bit with the pistols.
But I do find convenience pretty important if not paramount as I want no part of lugging around some three pounds plus of steel,ammo,and leather to carry daily.
I probably speak for thousands of license holders with that statement.
Obviously not all.
No contempt here.
Carry what you want.
And I really agree with post #91 that range and real life bad situations are two different things.

Warp
September 2, 2011, 02:59 PM
I don't think a j-frame really has a place in a world where the PM-9 and other autos that compact exist.

I don't think the PM9 and other small autos have a place in a world with bet-your-life reliable J-frames

Andrew Wyatt
September 2, 2011, 03:19 PM
I don't think the PM9 and other small autos have a place in a world with bet-your-life reliable J-frames

Sure, they're more reliable in the sense that they have fewer stoppages, but they do stop working, and when they do it's never an easy fix.

They are also much harder to shoot than an auto of equivalent size, and missing the target is also a failure.

A PM9 is smaller and lighter than a steel frame J-frame, and weighs 1.5 ounces more than an airweight j-frame. With a flush fit magazine, it holds 1 more round of equivalent effectiveness, and a reload is less bulky than a speed strip (which i'm almost certain is what j-frame people carry for a reload if you have one), quicker, and has two additonal rounds. The sight radius on a PM9 is longer, and the stock sights are more easily visible than those on a fixed sight smith.

It can be shot more quickly and accurately than a j-frame, and it fits in the same space.

mavracer
September 2, 2011, 03:29 PM
Heeler,
I agree. I think the problem starts when some on here project their percieved threat level or current skill level on others.
I myself live in a place that has been named top 10 safest places to live.
I look more like Larry the cable guy than Donald Trump and drive a big old Bronco that screems redneck with a gun.
I'm nobody's boss and the only woman I sleep with's husband strongly opposes suicide.
On an average day I feel over gunned with an airweight snub.
If I was say a ADA and lived in Detroit I'd feel differently.

Warp
September 2, 2011, 03:35 PM
They are also much harder to shoot than an auto of equivalent size, and missing the target is also a failure.



I beg to differ

mavracer
September 2, 2011, 04:32 PM
They are also much harder to shoot than an auto of equivalent size
that would be "They are also much harder for Andrew Wyatt to shoot than an auto of equivalent size"
It can be shot more quickly and accurately than a j-frame
and this should say "For Andrew Wyatt it can be shot more quickly and accurately than a j-frame"

heeler
September 2, 2011, 05:01 PM
This thread and a recent one about J frames has me wanting to take my little Smith M 37 to the range next week and practice more with it.
It's gots it's niche in the over all scheme of things and although I wont carry it as much as the micro 380's,since I have it I might as well learn to shoot it a lot better than my past mediocre experience has been with it.
Again I can readily shoot my new LCP and Diamondback 380 much better than the Airweight J and I am just not sure why I am having so much trouble being accurate with it.
But in the few years of owning it that has been the case.

19-3Ben
September 2, 2011, 05:11 PM
I'm nobody's boss and the only woman I sleep with's husband strongly opposes suicide.

Very clever. I got a good chuckle out of that one.

Prosser
September 2, 2011, 06:03 PM
I LOVE the way the custom grips feel that I put on my 360PD. I like having such a light gun that barely prints in a front pocket for taking out the trash.
I also enjoy having a small hand grenade to go off in someone's face if necessary. Like the gun? well, those are it's good points. Firing DA it started with over a 16 pound trigger pull. Never shot anything with a worse trigger. The MSRP is 999.00. That's bloody absurd.
Next, the lock. My gun locked up tight dry firing on snap caps. Had to have the lock removed. Now it has a weird takeup on the trigger.
CCW grips are really too small for me to try and shoot the gun accurately.
At 7 yards, I'm center of mass accurate, with 357 Fioochi ammunition.
Still, it's a 147 grain HP at 1140, or I also carry the 158 grain Lead HP, at 1040 fps from buffalobore. No difference in recoil, and I don't think most badguys will tell much of a difference, though the Fioochi makes for a better flash bang grenade effect.

Recoil: This little gun recoils at a speed usually reserved for bullet trains.
The light weight, and heavy ammunition combine to reach recoil speeds
that are not for humans. With heavier ammo, you can get that little gun
moving over 55 fps into your hand. IIRC, the above carry loads are around 45 fps, and, that's just too much for people to practice with much. .38's FMJ at 950 fps are a much better practice round, and cut the recoil in half.

The 2" or less barrel is a real problem. You loose a ton of velocity over a 3" or 3.5" barrel. It is unfortunate a longer barrel isn't an option.

As Oldfool said, carry guns are a compromise, well most of em. I have a PM9 and I'm much more accurate with it then the snub. Since the trigger pull is half that of a 360PD "tuned" trigger, it's not surprising.

Still, the 360PD makes a great late night opening the door gun, taking out the trash, etc. The PM 9 really needs Thunderwear or something to keep from printing, and my favorite Detonics Combatmaster really does.

clutch
September 2, 2011, 06:45 PM
Darn, 5 pages, I had to go back to remind myself what the thread is titled.
My typical carry gun is a 442 with +p in it. I have a bersa .380, a M&P compact in .40, a XDM 4.5 in 9 and a 4" security six.

The 442 airweight with +p is a one box of ammo gun on the practice range. After a box, you put it away for another day when you feel like losing some more skin. With .38 spl loads, it is not too bad. I should take a tip from one of the responders and wear a glove during practice.

I love the fact that I can pocket carry this and no one is the wiser. The shape of my Bersa doesn't work out and my other guns are too big for summer. I'm too big to carry my larger arms since I'm more like Santa Claus then some stud with a six pack.

As far as recoil fully loaded verses the last round, if you ever find yourself emptying it, each round brings you closer and closer to something really bad. I doubt you will notice the sting in your hand, your mind will be on more pressing matters.

My one complaint is that my speed loaders don't clear the grip panel. I just bought a new dremel tool to replace the one that died due to defective engineering. I'm going to work on the left side grip so I can use a speed loader.

As far as the Scandium guns, well, I'm getting older, in my younger days, I'd give them a try but as some movie star once said, "A man's got to know his limitations". :)

Clutch

skidder
September 2, 2011, 07:31 PM
The metal can't be all that great if they have to use steel cylinders and inserts in the barrel. Why not buy the whole gun with the stuff that is used around the critical parts? You can't even get a descent pistol whip from one of those...air biscuit feather bantam welter weight contraptions.

Sorry, but I'll stick with my sp101. I'm disappointed in Ruger for jumping on the pot metal band wagon.

Here is an interesting read from a different forum.

http://www.practicallyshooting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2398

harmon rabb
September 3, 2011, 01:54 PM
The metal can't be all that great if they have to use steel cylinders and inserts in the barrel. Why not buy the whole gun with the stuff that is used around the critical parts? You can't even get a descent pistol whip from one of those...air biscuit feather bantam welter weight contraptions.

Sorry, but I'll stick with my sp101. I'm disappointed in Ruger for jumping on the pot metal band wagon.

Here is an interesting read from a different forum.

http://www.practicallyshooting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2398
It's not like Ruger discontinued the SP101 or has any plans to do so. They saw a market they weren't in and entered it. Big deal. For those of us who prefer a carry revolver to be a heavy chunk of steel you could beat someone to death with, the SP101 is still around :D

ACP
September 3, 2011, 08:05 PM
I've got two, and I carry them 90% of the time I am armed. I reccomend them to all my friends.

heyjoe
September 3, 2011, 09:16 PM
an airlite 32 h&r magnum is just about perfect.

sm
September 3, 2011, 11:27 PM
To which I will add:
These guns are proven in filling "niches".

-Always guns. Meaning a gun one will actually have on person all the time.

-Medical, injury, and related reasons.
Ask anyone that has had surgery, such as hip replacement about weight and conceal carry.

-Bed guns:
Now I was raised and mentored, that a snub nosed revolver was the bees knees if one was sick, injured, in-firmed ,recovering from surgery or just wanted a great "bed gun".

While a bobbed hammer was fine, the better choice was/is a "concealed hammer" , such as Smith 042, 442 or 642 for instance.

The gun is light, no hammer to hang on bed linens, and as Tuner pointed out in his post, at the distance to be used, in bed, getting a gun in play and fast, and at that distance...

Hard to beat.

Me and Mine actually did "lessons and set-ups" while in bed, and in recliners to replicate being sick and injured. WE also shared with those that were about to have surgery, and those that had, these lessons.

Airweights have and always will fill a niche.

amd6547
September 4, 2011, 12:21 AM
I use the original small magna grips plus a Tyler T grip on my airweight bodyguard, and dont feel any discomfort whatsoever using my favored 158gn +P SWCHP.

Guillermo
September 4, 2011, 12:03 PM
"A man's got to know his limitations".


I wish more folks were as wise as you Clutch.

It would be scary to know how well the folks that carry those "scandium" J frames shoot them. I'll bet many are essentially unarmed.

Andrew Wyatt
September 4, 2011, 01:00 PM
I wish more folks were as wise as you Clutch.

It would be scary to know how well the folks that carry those "scandium" J frames shoot them. I'll bet many are essentially unarmed.


That's a sucker's bet.

A j-frame and a speed strip isn't really what i'd consider armed, except in all but the most nominal meaning of the word.

Warp
September 4, 2011, 01:30 PM
I wish more folks were as wise as you Clutch.

It would be scary to know how well the folks that carry those "scandium" J frames shoot them. I'll bet many are essentially unarmed.


This is projection. Just because you can't shoot them worth a darn doesn't mean others can't. It's no different than the brady campaign talking about how those who carry guns willl get into road rage shootouts at every itersection

Guillermo
September 4, 2011, 03:21 PM
Just because you can't shoot them worth a darn doesn't mean others can't.

I go to the range regularly. The competent J frame shot is rare. The one that can shoot a scandium well is exceptionally rare. The one that can shoot a scandium j frame .357 is a unicorn.

I know...I know. Some guys can shoot a hummingbird at 200 yards with 44 magnum made of Styrofoam clenched in your but cheeks while doing handstand pushups on the bow of an offshore racing boat at full throttle during a hurricane.

They must have private ranges or a different schedule than me.

A j-frame and a speed strip isn't really what i'd consider armed, except in all but the most nominal meaning of the word.

Warp would disagree

bgr2014
September 4, 2011, 04:31 PM
I like my Airweight!!! My brother-in-law shot a big BG at about 10 ft. with +p knocked him out of his shoes, he BG dropped his gun and cell phone and he and his partner ran out the door. They had everyone laying on their stomach's with hands under head. Everytime the BG looked away he unbottned a button until he could get the gun out and under his head. Next time the BG turned around to check the other people he BIL put a slug in his back. BG now in jail.

Stainz
September 4, 2011, 04:36 PM
Guillermo,

Aha, so you've heard of my prowess! I must correct some errors: it was a hummingbird's beak and even I am not foolish enough to go out in a hurricane... tropical depression, maybe!

One aspect of familiarization - and 24/7 carry - that saved my bacon once. Two gang bangers - an older guy (20's) and a young 'un (teen) - cornered me in the back of a three day old WallyWorld - in mid afternoon on a Friday. The older one got close enough, 3 ft at most, I could smell his rancid breath - I faced him and my right hand instantly grabbed the pocketed 642 in it's sheath in my rf pocket. I gritted my teeth in as menacing a pose as I could - and heard my wife call my name from several aisles over - she had seen the young accomplice sneaking up on me. The older one looked at him - he was ~8 ft from me - and shook his head. They turned - and left - at a high rate of speed. When I realized I hadn't soiled myself, I took off after them, after assurance from my wife that she was only in shock. A 'low-rider' sedan was leaving from in front of the store as I got there - the manager was behind me - I guess he was unaccustomed to fat old grey-haired guys running through his store - and nearly went in shock when I related the story to him. He asked what they wanted, all I could muster was, "I didn't see any 'Watchtowers'... I don't think they wanted to witness to me...". That was so good I used on my wife moments later. I had to take her home - she couldn't believe that would happen - in a 'nice' neighborhood. The manager said he'd called the police - and they would review the video from that part of the store. That camera wasn't on, as it turned out - but they were seen exiting the store. The LEO said I was fortunate - they were from a gang (jackets). The manager apologized - and when I reminded him that I was about to present and discharge a firearm - in his new store, he said a legal CCW is not a problem. Visions of inconsiderate shoppers on 'black Friday' - or line breakers in after Christmas return lines came to mind. My wife insists I cannot be serious for long.

That episode still bothers me, several years later. I do carry 24/7 - and it's an Airweight 642, most of the time. I do shoot it aperiodically - with warshots - to keep my skills honed. I'd rather shoot my SS revolvers any day of the week as .38 plinkers, of course. Lewis Seecamp goes a bit further in his neat little Rollex-like bottom feeder's (My wife's pocket carry is a Seecamp .32.) owner manual. He suggests that you buy a box of ammo - shoot a mag or two through his gun, clean it, load it and carry it, leaving the rest of the ammo in the box for later... and don't bother with a spare mag - get to a larger firearm. A pocket piece is to save your bacon - and I think that is sage advice - as long as you have something in your pocket. I do. There is a reason for the existence of Airweights. I didn't have to present it that time, much less fire it - but my training was good. I hope I never get that close to it's use ever again!

Stainz

Guillermo
September 4, 2011, 06:33 PM
Stainz.

I am glad that you had your 642.

That was too close.

I hope none of us come that close and all this training is for naught.

Hapworth
September 4, 2011, 10:42 PM
...

Warp
September 4, 2011, 10:46 PM
Quantify "slightly better"

Hapworth
September 4, 2011, 10:48 PM
I love airlight snubs, I have a S&W 340pd hammerless its gotta be the best concealed carry gun of all time IMO. so small so light and chambers 357, cant ask for better.
Out of curiousity, why do you favor the .357 round out of a snubbie? Its recoil is significantly greater than a .38 Special, while terminal ballistics are only slightly better.

Hapworth
September 4, 2011, 10:49 PM
Quantify "slightly better"
Taking my cue from this, but I don't have data at hand at the moment: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.38spl/.357mag

Warp
September 4, 2011, 10:52 PM
Taking my cue from this, but I don't have data at hand at the moment: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self

...did they even test .357??

Hapworth
September 5, 2011, 12:03 AM
...did they even test .357??

Doesn't look like it.

Though it's single source and can't be considered representative, it might be indicative -- from Speer's website, the Gold Dot Short Barrel in .38+P vs. .357 Magnum out of a 2" barrel:

.38+P = 860fps, 222 ft/lbs
.357 Magnum = 990fps, 294ft/lbs

And the Standard Gold Dots out of a 4" barrel:

.38+P = 945fps, 248ft/lbs
.357 Magnum = 1450fps, 584ft/lbs

A much greater difference between comparable .38 and .357 loads out of a 4" barrel than comparable .38 and .357 loads out of a 2" barrel.

Out of any barrel, the .357 load will have superior ballistics compared to the .38, but Speer's numbers indicate that moving down to a 2" barrel narrows the differences between the two calibers; the .357 is still better, but not by as much.

Ideally I'd like to see identical loads compared in 4" and 2 " barrels compared in the two calibers, but Speer's ballistic tables do help give shape to the question.

Victor69
September 5, 2011, 12:16 AM
Glad your OK Stainz, funny at ar15 there's always somebody claiming the get harassed each time they CC at Wally world.Beginning to wonder about all the bs people post on the internet.

Warp
September 5, 2011, 12:18 AM
I wouldn't use the gold dot short barrel to compare. The .357 load is very light

Guillermo
September 5, 2011, 12:52 AM
Beginning to wonder about all the bs people post on the internet.

some people do...for sure.

I believe Stainz. His account was realistic, he did not make himself a superhero and such things happen often.

When I was robbed at gunpoint and I had the chance to return fire (25 years ago). My performance led me to practice because I did not perform like I would have expected.

And trust me...I pray to God...on my knees...that I never have to put that training to work.

iflyem1
September 5, 2011, 01:38 AM
I have a S&W 337PD that I carry. I like it because it only weighs 10 oz's. Is this a gun I would take to the range and fire hundreds of rounds thru, NO. But I have no problem squeazing off enough to be proficient. Each type of gun has it's place. Some like revolvers for CCW some like semi-autos, some like them light some like them a bit heavier. To each his own.

mavracer
September 5, 2011, 11:08 AM
I go to the range regularly. The competent J frame shot is rare.
I go to the range at least weekly. IMHO the competent shot is rare. Too many have fallen for the 3 shots at 3 feet BS. I see so many shooters patterning their full size guns at 7 yards slow fire.

Guillermo
September 5, 2011, 11:44 AM
I have no problem squeazing off enough to be proficient

We all have our ideas of proficient.

That might be a good thread.

Warp
September 5, 2011, 01:04 PM
We all have our ideas of proficient.

That might be a good thread.


For a bit of a reality check, considier this:

Take a look around at your fellow shooters. The general ignorant shooting-public makes up the majority. How well do they shoot? How proficient are they?

Then, after that unfortunate bit of information, think about the result of the majority of defensive shooting incidents.

Finally, compare a shooting enthusiast with a lightweight snub nose vs the general shooting public with anything.

Guillermo
September 5, 2011, 01:43 PM
You made your point Warp.

I don't think I want to know.

mavracer
September 5, 2011, 03:20 PM
We all have our ideas of proficient.
Finally, compare a shooting enthusiast with a lightweight snub nose vs the general shooting public with anything
I belive this is part of the problem we have here on this thread. I'm sure that many who carry are not as proficient as they should be but it's not just guys with snubs. I find it ironic that people who need a full size all steel gun to be proficient would question the ability of anyone. What's next I can't get around town with a stick shift because they're to hard for you to drive.

Guillermo
September 5, 2011, 03:36 PM
I find it ironic that people who need a full size all steel gun to be proficient would question the ability of anyone

I find it appalling that someone would not want everyone to shoot that which they can shoot well, no matter what it is. If that is a .22LR N frame...so be it.

While I shoot my Colt Cobra well enough for me to say that I am proficient I am better with my Diamondback snub. And better that that with a 4 inch D frame. And I would have to be pretty lazy to carry the Cobra just for the sake of a few ounces.

Not being irresponsible I don't carry a .500 magnum snub made of styrofoam. I wouldn't shoot it well and collateral damage is not something that I want on my conscience.

Prosser
September 5, 2011, 03:38 PM
You can add in diminishing physical skill, eyes in particular.

Sucks when you need reading glasses to see the front site. Wonder when they are going to be able to cure aging corneas?

CSA 357
September 5, 2011, 04:11 PM
i started out packing full size 1911 and n frames then i went to k frames and mid size glocks, as i sit here now theres a mod 38 bodyguard in my pocket, shoots realy good and easy to carry, yea theres time i still carry the 1911 or 3 or 4 inch n frame smith and even then the bodyguard will be in my pocket!

Inebriated
September 5, 2011, 04:30 PM
Glad your OK Stainz, funny at ar15 there's always somebody claiming the get harassed each time they CC at Wally world.Beginning to wonder about all the bs people post on the internet.

Well that's AR15... it's 99% bs.

Poor Knight
September 5, 2011, 05:10 PM
Am I the only one who really doesn't care for the new airweight smith and wesson snub nose revolvers. I've always thought they were just too light. I have a smith and wesson model. 60 made in the late 70s and it has some weight to it but its not like its pulling your pants down when you carry it. Its heavy enough to obsorb some recoil and light enough to carry comfortably. I just never got the practical use of having something thats as light as the airweights are, does anyone else agree
Hate airweight snubs in .38 -- love them in in .32 - want to try in .327

USMC8541
September 5, 2011, 05:14 PM
I go to the range regularly. The competent J frame shot is rare. The one that can shoot a scandium well is exceptionally rare. The one that can shoot a scandium j frame .357 is a unicorn.

I know...I know. Some guys can shoot a hummingbird at 200 yards with 44 magnum made of Styrofoam clenched in your but cheeks while doing handstand pushups on the bow of an offshore racing boat at full throttle during a hurricane.

They must have private ranges or a different schedule than me.



Warp would disagree
You guys are way off base, Go to a hospital in a high crime city and talk to some of the people who have been stopped with 1 38 special round.

It doesn't matter where the 15th shot goes, I matters where the FIRST shot goes

Guillermo
September 5, 2011, 05:41 PM
It doesn't matter where the 15th shot goes, I matters where the FIRST shot goes

I totally concur.

Not sure why you would thing that I have advocated anything other than shooting well.

mavracer
September 5, 2011, 05:51 PM
While I shoot my Colt Cobra well enough for me to say that I am proficient I am better with my Diamondback snub. And better that that with a 4 inch D frame. And I would have to be pretty lazy to carry the Cobra just for the sake of a few ounces.
A: By your own admission your not proficient enough with it to feel comfortable carrying it.
B: By that logic you obviously carry a 8" Python.

Guillermo
September 5, 2011, 06:17 PM
apparently this language thing is an issue for you Mav.

I will type s l o w l y.

I s h o o t t h e C o b r a w e l l . . .b u t t h e d b b e t t e r. S o i f p o s s i b l e I c a r r y t h e d b.

a n d y e s... I c a r r y a f u l l s i z e r e v o l v e r w h e n e v e r p o s s i b l e. W h e n i n t h e f i e l d I c a r r y a r i f l e.

mavracer
September 5, 2011, 06:50 PM
apparently this language thing is an issue for you Mav.
yes we do seem to have a language barrier. Unless you can do better than this in under 2 sec from the low ready at 10 yards with a 4" you have no right tell me I'm not proficient enough to carry an airweight J frame. And for the record that with the +p Gloddots I actually carry.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii261/mavracer/SANY0835.jpg

Guillermo
September 5, 2011, 07:08 PM
you have no right tell me I'm not proficient enough to carry an airweight J frame

I d i d n o t s a y t h a t y o u a r e n o t p r o f i c i e n t w i t h a n a i r w e i g h t j - f r a m e.

h e r e i s a l i n k t h a t y o u m i g h t f i n d u s e f u l
http://www.hookedonphonics.com/

mavracer
September 5, 2011, 07:49 PM
Maybe if you'd get to the range instead of telling people that guy's that can shoot scandium 357s don't exist and ridiculing the ones that can. Then maybe you'd shoot well enough to carry a lighter gun.

Guillermo
September 5, 2011, 08:06 PM
Mav,

You are apparently illiterate.

I never said that it can't be done. I am quite sure that David E can do so. Jerry Michulek surely can. If you are not a liar, you can.

While I am loath to tell someone to practice less....if your shooting ability is as u say...you are a great shot. Spend some of that ammo money on reading comprehension.

Diggers
September 5, 2011, 08:14 PM
I carry a 442 some times. Its a nice carry.

The issue with snubs I see mostly is people think about using them in away they weren't meant for.

Simply put snub are meant for close in shooting. One shooting expert thinks 1 car length is about it for snubs in a combat situation.

mavracer showed his skill with one at 10 yards in his post above. I think that is pretty far out for a snub.

Shooting distances with these guns really are better measured in feet.

mavracer
September 5, 2011, 08:32 PM
You are apparently illiterate.

I never said that it can't be done. I am quite sure that David E can do so. Jerry Michulek surely can. If you are not a liar, you can.
maybe it not illiteracy on my part but alzheimers on yours.
The one that can shoot a scandium j frame .357 is a unicorn.

Guillermo
September 5, 2011, 08:41 PM
if you take it out of context you can make up whatever you want.

if you had the ability to read I was speaking of the people at the range where I go.

Try again Mav. Anyone who can shoot as well as you obviously has drive. Just put your mind to it. You can do it!!!

I go to the range regularly. The competent J frame shot is rare. The one that can shoot a scandium well is exceptionally rare. The one that can shoot a scandium j frame .357 is a unicorn.

230therapy
September 5, 2011, 08:51 PM
Whose standard? Nice size group to shoot for at 15 and 25 yards. But who set that as a standard and for what?

I am not talking about sport shooting or arbitrary standards set by some organization to satisfy some administrative criteria.

Four inches is based upon human anatomy.

It gets you a solid hit from the front, side and back of the chest. It also happens to more or less work for the ocular window and side of head. If you can do less on demand, then you'll be able to do 4" under stress.


That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, however, what I find questionable is someone who expects everyone else to be at their same skill level, have the same values, or think in their terms, and if others do not, they are labeled as lazy and have contempt directed at them??? Real dang highroad there.

I stand by my "non-high road" statements about the laziness of the average person carrying for self-defense purposes. People proved it to me almost daily. I ran a private range for two years and getting people to pay for serious training was extremely difficult. Advertising had a very, very low rate of return. I could expect a maximum of two sign-ups (on a good day) on the open "tactical" range days I hosted. I would have been ecstatic had I been able to get 10% of the attendees to sign-up for courses. In short, the vast majority of people refuse to attend a course that will prepare them for a real life encounter and help them stay out of prison.

I expect people to be responsible with their liberty. I expect them to work hard at proficiency. This is essential in life or death situations. It is irresponsible to send rounds down range in an uncontrolled way when the shooter had every opportunity to develop the skills necessary to avoid doing so.

How in the world can you possibly argue with that?

mavracer
September 5, 2011, 08:58 PM
if you had the ability to read I was speaking of the people at the range where I go.
If that's what you wanted to say it should have read.

"At the range I go to the regularly, the competent J frame shot is rare, the one that can shoot a scandium well is exceptionally rare and the one that can shoot a scandium j frame .357 is a unicorn."

Maybe you should take an english comp 101 course.

Guillermo
September 5, 2011, 10:00 PM
Too bad this didn't clear it up for you

I never said that it can't be done. I am quite sure that David E can do so. Jerry Michulek surely can. If you are not a liar, you can.

Reading this as well as the pocket carry thread I see that your ability to communicate is severely limited.

I mean really.... you took "I shoot my Colt Cobra well enough for me to say that I am proficient I am better with my Diamondback snub" to mean "your not proficient enough with it to feel comfortable carrying it"

You have a lot to offer a forum like this if you would learn to read.

I certainly hope that you do. Your opinion, when not skewed by misunderstanding, is usually worthy of consideration.

bdb benzino
September 6, 2011, 02:53 AM
I will admit that after reading some posters point of veiw about people packing Airweights and not practicing enough, that I took slight offense to it. I do carry a number of pistols, but Airweights are definitely one of my favorites.
So instead of getting my panties in a wad, I went out to the farm to see how I have held up being that I have not practiced with them for a while. I have been into my 1911's this summer and have neglected to stay fresh with my light snub.

I will say that this thread has opened my eyes a little, as at 20 yards or more I was not near as good as I was last spring when I was staying proficient with my S&W 638 and 642. At 10 yards I did good, but its good I learned my limitations, and that I need to practice more for the chance a longer accurate shot may be needed.
This will not stop me from carrying them, and I believe on most cases 10 yards and under will be the case. But it sure did open my eyes that I need to practice more often to stay accurate at longer distances. It's amazing how fast your skills can dull when you use several different pistols.

PRM
September 6, 2011, 10:02 AM
I am not talking about sport shooting or arbitrary standards set by some organization to satisfy some administrative criteria.

Four inches is based upon human anatomy.

So it's a personal standard based on opinion. Nothing wrong with that ~ just was curious about the source.

People proved it to me almost daily. I ran a private range for two years and getting people to pay for serious training was extremely difficult.

Who developed this "serious training?" I've seen a lot of programs go and come over the years. I am still not ready to concede that the average shooter is lazy, just because they decide a particular program is not what they want to spend their money on.

Guillermo
September 6, 2011, 11:47 AM
It's amazing how fast your skills can dull when you use several different pistols

bdb

my hat is off to you for your honesty and willingness to put it out there as an example to others.

My Achilles heal is not putting new guns through enough rounds. Even if it is exactly like another gun, I should put 300 through it before I trust it. (but I digress)

I too shoot a lot of different guns...which may not be smart. But I always practice with my primary carry every trip to the range.

If you put as little as a box through your J frame after a 1911 session you might be surprised at how your skill stays high with the little beast.

bdb benzino
September 6, 2011, 01:55 PM
Besides practicing more, I think I'm going to try to carry my S&W model 12 more as it is way easier to shoot accurately. I may also seek out a quality holster for my model 19 as it is even easier yet.
Guillermo,
All your praise for you Colt Diamondback has me looking at one at my LGS, although he is asking $699 for it. Is that about right for the price in good shape?

mavracer
September 6, 2011, 02:16 PM
something I found to help a lot with learning and maintaining skill with a airweight snub is Crimson Trace grips. A few minutes a couple times a week of dry firing while trying to keep the laser trained on a light switch will tune your muscle memory so that only the trigger finger moves. If you don't want to drop the $ on CTs get a $5 flee market laser pointer and some tape.
Another big plus is all that dry firing my trigger is buttery smooth.

Guillermo
September 6, 2011, 04:23 PM
BDB,

While I love my DB's they are not for everyone. My snubs are easy to shoot accurately (although training is required as it seems that the trigger reset is a little longer than a J-frame).

700 is a really good price if it checks out (for a snub...still pretty good for a 4 inch). Be VERY careful about the lockup and timing. But please understand, an older Smith performs just as well and if something breaks, which will eventually happen, much easier to fix.

Also note that the trigger is the exact opposite of a Smith. An S&W will "load" at the front where the Colt will "stack". Personally I like the "help" when prestaging the action but the transition is not easy between the two.

So while I am not trying to talk you out of it, but please understand that the DB is a horse of a different color.

Try to shoot the DB before you buy it and make sure that it is for you.

Another thing to note is that it is hard to find leather for a DB. I have mine custom made by a local fellow (Cotton's Custom Leatherworks). If you decide to buy the DB let me know and I will be glad to coordinate dropping one of mine off to Cotton so that he can use it to make you a holster.

http://www.tex45.com/

Onward Allusion
September 6, 2011, 04:55 PM
230therapy
<SNIP>I expect people to be responsible with their liberty. I expect them to work hard at proficiency. This is essential in life or death situations. It is irresponsible to send rounds down range in an uncontrolled way when the shooter had every opportunity to develop the skills necessary to avoid doing so.

How in the world can you possibly argue with that?

As a broad statement, I can't argue with you. However, maybe I misunderstood, but I got the distinct impression that you think everyone who carries a snub regularly should be able to hit a pie plate at 25 yards with said snub.

Like I had mentioned earlier, I consider myself to be an "OK" shot. Lots of people better than me and lots of people worst than me when it comes to shooting. Me, I can only hit a pie plate about 50% to 75% of the time from 25 yards with a snub - AT THE RANGE. However, with my Model 66 it's 90%+.

Does that mean I should not be entitled to protect myself with a snub because I'm crappy with a snub? What about all those people out there carrying a .38 Spl snub who are challenged to hit a target at 10 yards? Maybe they should just forgo personal defense until they get their skills up to snuff? I carry a Kel Tec P32 and a NAA Mini, should I be able to hit a pie plate at 25 yards? This is where your logic doesn't make sense. Sure, practice and stay proficient but to call people lazy if they don't practice to the level of your skills is . . . .interesting.

Guillermo
September 6, 2011, 05:23 PM
that you think everyone who carries a snub regularly should be able to hit a pie plate at 25 yards with said snub.

Old Fuff has said (hopefully I am not misquoting him) that everyone should at minimum be able to put five in a pie plate at 5 feet in five seconds.

personally I think that is generous. When I mentioned this to him he said "it is a starting point...not an end goal"

My personal threshold for proficiency is 6 shots at 10 feet in under 4 seconds. I prefer to be able to draw and do so. This is not that tough. Folks like David E can do that easily.

While those numbers will not win any gun games, I think that they are sufficient to call yourself proficient with a small handgun.

YMMV

antiquus
September 6, 2011, 08:06 PM
I have to agree with Onward, people have a right to self-defense in any manner they are capable of, using whatever they deem correct, to the best of their abilities, training and time. My opinion, your opinion, Wayne Lapierre's opinion have no bearing on their personal freedom, however wrongheaded their efforts seem to someone else.

Their are huge reasons to use a snubbie that have nothing to do with pie plates. Reasons my wife carries one are: ability to reliably shoot from a coat pocket or in a purse, the lack of a long barrel to grab for a disarm, no slide to foul on clothing and jam, misfires are cured by another trigger pull. This is the strength of the snubbie - up close and personal it is the best gun without exception for desperate situations.

It will perform as well as any gun to 10 feet, with care to 25 feet, with practice to 150 ft. I can stay in the 6 ring at 50 yards with my 2 snubbie, good enough to hit a man sized target and frankly I am very mediocre at the range. It isn't hard to do and doesn't take more than 50 rounds to accomplish.

Snubbies are not inherently inaccurate, that's been totally debunked. If you must have great accuracy but can't seem to make it point right, lasers are a cheap fix.

PRM
September 6, 2011, 08:24 PM
Been carrying J Frames since 1977. My current is a model 60-9 and a Model 649.

I've never had a problem with accuracy, and I don't think I'm an anomaly. I have small hands and the factory grips fit me well. A lot of the accuracy with any handgun is having one that fits the shooter. I can see where individuals with large hands would have difficulty with the standard grips. Great thing about revolvers is that you have unlimited options.

I do agree with all posts on practice ~ goes with any gun. I'm not a fanatic, but do think one should do as much as time and funds allow. Besides that, its fun!!!

I'd love to have one of the light weights, but just can't justify it without giving up one of my old tried and true (not gonna happen).

AZ Desertrat
September 6, 2011, 09:03 PM
No...I dont like the airweights....got rid of the last one I had...Taurus 85 UL....way too light to handle any power loads....I went back to using my S&W M36 Chiefs Special....all steel....no problem to shoot Buffalo Bores out of it.

mavracer
September 6, 2011, 09:52 PM
An S&W will "load" at the front where the Colt will "stack". Personally I like the "help" when prestaging the action but the transition is not easy between the two.
Working with a laser pointer or CTs will help a lot with transitioning back and forth I shoot Colts, Smiths and Rugers pretty much the same
I have to agree with Onward, people have a right to self-defense in any manner they are capable of, using whatever they deem correct, to the best of their abilities, training and time.
Absolutly. The responsability comes in that you are responsable for your actions. If you don't win because you didn't practice enough you have nobody to blame. If you hit a bystander your probably gonna get prosicuted at the very least your gonna live with guilt.

antiquus
September 6, 2011, 10:09 PM
That's the essence of freedom, and includes the freedom to screw it up totally.

JoeShmoe
September 6, 2011, 10:20 PM
Old Fuff has said (hopefully I am not misquoting him) that everyone should at minimum be able to put five in a pie plate at 5 feet in five seconds.

personally I think that is generous. When I mentioned this to him he said "it is a starting point...not an end goal"

My personal threshold for proficiency is 6 shots at 10 feet in under 4 seconds. I prefer to be able to draw and do so. This is not that tough. Folks like David E can do that easily.

While those numbers will not win any gun games, I think that they are sufficient to call yourself proficient with a small handgun.

YMMV
6? That would be tough to do with a J-Frame.

Guillermo
September 6, 2011, 10:40 PM
people have a right to self-defense in any manner they are capable of

I agree.

That said, with rights come responsibility. I believe that we have a responsibility to minimize collateral damage which means shooting well and knowing when to shoot.

6? That would be tough to do with a J-Frame
True...I own no J frames...I am a D frame Colt guy.

But I bet David E could do it :evil:

oldfool
September 7, 2011, 08:35 AM
must be moon phase for lightweight, convenient carry, pocket carry month
HOT HOT topics, despite the cooling weather

"getting people to pay for serious training was extremely difficult."

Yes indeed, it no doubt was, and still is. Yes indeed, that does seem to be a motivating factor driving (in at least some part) the opinions being posted by some in these several topics, although not all are always as openly forthright about it.

Yes indeed, we all ought practice more, and that includes the entire range of shooters, encompassing from-me-to-miculek. But whether or not you choose to pay for training, that is far more about lifestyle choices, discretionary time and financial resource, other interests and obligations.

I have never warmed up to the notion that politicians and legislators ought decide what's best for me, because they know better than I do what's best for me, they being law experts. That includes manufactured litmus tests and fees for owning and carrying a firearm.

So I guess I will just never warm up to the notions espoused by some, whose entire life and/or financial self interests just might (?) revolve around firearms; "Thou shalt do as I do, lest ye be judged incompetent, lazy, and irresponsible.... by me".

Obey the law, make your own choices based on your own lifestyle, buy what you like, don't buy what you don't like, practice as much as you are willing to, practice how you want to, carry it however it suits you, be safe, and always mind your backdrop.

It's called freedom, liberty, choice, and it's great.
Nobody ever said it was risk free.

Guillermo
September 7, 2011, 09:05 AM
Obey the law, make your own choices based on your own lifestyle, buy what you like, don't buy what you don't like, practice as much as you are willing to, practice how you want to, carry it however it suits you, be safe, and always mind your backdrop

OF,

This sounds good but with rights come responsibility. I opine that we have the responsibility to minimize collateral damage if the flag goes up.

You may have the right to carry a Lahti anti tank gun but blazing away with it to stop a purse snatcher running down a city street is a bad idea. (even in Detroit :evil:)

SlamFire1
September 7, 2011, 10:25 AM
I like Airweights :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Smith%20and%20Wesson%20Pistols/ReducedCheifSpecialCentennialBod-1.jpg

I prefer the hammerless models. It is far better to have the thing with you, and you are more likely to carry the smaller lighter package than the bigger heavier one.

These little snubbies are amazingly accurate if you can hold them.

But who needs target accuracy when spitting distance is the extreme range for most encounters?

mavracer
September 7, 2011, 11:13 AM
6? That would be tough to do with a J-Frame.
Depends on which J frame my model 34-1 makes it easy.

RetDep310
September 7, 2011, 02:09 PM
AMEN to oldfool.....can't we all just get along?

Oh, and BTW, I love my M&P340!!!

SwampWolf
September 7, 2011, 09:31 PM
230therapy


Quote:
Is a bad guy's bullet deadly at 25 yards? Are bullets capable of flying 25 yards? Is the good guy under threat of maiming or bodily harm?

All of the above are a "it depends scenario". I'm talking generalities. If a BG is 25 yards away, it would not be prudent to use 1 or more of your 5 shots at that distance. Sure, one may be able to get a pie plate at 50 yards at the range, but let me tell you it is unlikely to happen in a real world situation for most people. maybe you and AMD are the exception but most people can't when their heart is racing. Can it happen, sure, but unlikely with most shooters. If one is not under a direct threat at 25 yards, get the hell out of the situation.

And if you can't "get the hell out of the situation" (a not unplausable scenario), what then? You find yourself in a "real world situation", heart racing, adrenaline pumping, whether you like it or not. What then? You don't shoot to save yourself or someone else from being killed (the only reason to be involved in a gunfight to start with) because all you are armed with is a snub-nosed revolver? That pie plate at 25 yards you talk about that you can hit only 50 to 75 per cent of the time with a snubbie? I'm not that great of a shot but I can hit it regularly 90 to 100 per cent of the time with a snub nose revolver. Guaranteed. Lots of practice can make you a lot more proficient than you give yourself credit for.

sm
September 7, 2011, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Guillermo View Post
Old Fuff has said (hopefully I am not misquoting him) that everyone should at minimum be able to put five in a pie plate at 5 feet in five seconds.

personally I think that is generous. When I mentioned this to him he said "it is a starting point...not an end goal"

My personal threshold for proficiency is 6 shots at 10 feet in under 4 seconds. I prefer to be able to draw and do so. This is not that tough. Folks like David E can do that easily.

While those numbers will not win any gun games, I think that they are sufficient to call yourself proficient with a small handgun.

YMMV

I believe it was Hackathorn whom came up with shooting five rounds at five yards.
I come up doing this with Mentors.

This was to determine what gun, and with what loads a shooter was good with.

-Take a piece of typing paper, fold in half, then halve again.
-Five rounds ( no matter the capacity of handgun)
-Shoot five rounds as quickly and effectively as one can.

The paper don't lie. It will reveal what platform, what caliber, one shoots best "at that time".

Meaning for instance, one that might have done well with .357 loads, may find with age, arthritis, or whatever, using .38spl affords them the "best" loading for them now.

This is what I and others did with new shooters, trying a variety of firearms to see what "fit them best" for CCW.

oldfool
September 8, 2011, 07:26 AM
"with rights come responsibility."

Amen to that !
Never said different, and that applies to all aspects of life, not just firearms.

But, no worries matey; though not myself overly fond of "too small & light" (whatever that is), strive as I might, I just never could find a good CCW holster for a Lahti anti tank gun, and the recoil on 'em slows my splits speed a bit too much anyway, not to even mention my fast draw. :uhoh:

There are some, however, who would mandate numerous additional restrictions on the "privilege" of CCW issue, including certified professional skill shooting instruction requirements... and methinks I just might know who they think the "certified professional" ought to be.

We are truly blessed to have numerous members here with a high level of skill in the speed shooting sports, experience in training both as teachers and pupils, and experience in law enforcement. They all bring added value to this forum in numerous ways. But one shoe does not fit all, be it choice of hardware, or choice of lifestyle.

Some, like fastbolt (and like many of our moderators here in particular), bring all that to the table without ever feeling the need to belittle and insult others who do not fit their own chosen personal preferences criteria or "shoe size".

PabloJ
September 8, 2011, 07:52 AM
Am I the only one who really doesn't care for the new airweight smith and wesson snub nose revolvers. I've always thought they were just too light. I have a smith and wesson model. 60 made in the late 70s and it has some weight to it but its not like its pulling your pants down when you carry it. Its heavy enough to obsorb some recoil and light enough to carry comfortably. I just never got the practical use of having something thats as light as the airweights are, does anyone else agree
My 2" six-shot Model 12-2 seems about perfect to me. I feel bad for you.

Guillermo
September 8, 2011, 09:26 AM
Old Fool,

I think if you look back I have never insulted those that do not carry what I do. Heck, I halfway tried to talk one fellow OUT of carrying what I do.

What I do have a problem with is folks that can't shoot what they carry. And airweights are not easy to shoot well.


It it their RIGHT to carry a 454 Casull derringer made of titanium with no handle...clenching it in their butt cheeks.

But if they can't shoot it...they are not living up to their responsibility.

Mav demonstrated that he can put 4 on target at 30 feet in short order. Ok...good shooting...carry on (pun intended)

But spray and pray is not a strategy.

mavracer
September 8, 2011, 09:43 AM
It it their RIGHT to carry a 454 Casull derringer made of titanium with no handle...sure.

But if they can't shoot it...they are not living up to their responsibility.
The OP singled out airweight and compaired it to a all steel J model 60. So recoil while greater should not effect ones ability to shoot it. He's not really talking about larger guns with target sights, as in the case of your Cobra and your Diamondback. Tell me how much better you shoot a Detective Special than your Cobra? unless the Cobra is just too painful to shoot for some reason they're shouldn't be much difference.

Mav demonstrated that he can put 4 on target at 30 feet in short order. Ok...good shooting...carry on
look again there's 5 there.;)

Guillermo
September 8, 2011, 09:59 AM
Tell me how much better you shoot a Detective Special than your Cobra?

never did a side by side comparison, but there is a difference, for sure.

When I got the Cobra I practiced with it a LOT to ensure that I could shoot it well.



All I am saying is that we all should be able to shoot what we carry fast an accuratly. It is our responsibility to do so.

I am also saying that the lighter the gun, the harder it is to shoot well. I rarely see anyone who is competent with a J frame. I am quite sure that David E can shoot a gnats ass with a scandium 642 at 100 yards using a dental mirror to aim over his shoulder. Mav is also fast and accurate. I trust that those guys are not going to spray and pray but rather be deadly accurate if they ever pull their guns in anger. (although I hope it is not ever put to the test)

But lets face it, guys like Mav are the exception, not the rule.

PRM
September 8, 2011, 10:29 AM
Well ~ just so you can say you've seen it.

Bob Munden's 200 yard shot with a J Frame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tied-t1fFsk

I can't do this and personally don't know of anyone else who can. But its fun to watch.

Tony_the_tiger
September 8, 2011, 10:33 AM
A j-frame and a speed strip isn't really what i'd consider armed

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

antiquus
September 8, 2011, 12:13 PM
But spray and pray is not a strategy.

Of course not, this is the revolver forum, we are supposed to be able to shoot. You must have us confused with the bottomfeeder forum...

Guillermo
September 8, 2011, 12:21 PM
we are supposed to be able to shoot

that is my point.

many of us carry guns for convenience and can not shoot them well.

I see it with disturbing regularity

mavracer
September 8, 2011, 12:46 PM
All I am saying is that we all should be able to shoot what we carry fast an accuratly. It is our responsibility to do so.

I am also saying that the lighter the gun, the harder it is to shoot well. I rarely see anyone who is competent with a J frame.
That's a slippery slope you've placed yourself on. your very correct a ~2" snub is a tough gun to master. I rarely see people who are competent with a SP101 which is a damn sight heavier than a 442/642 (BTW neither are scandium). If your litmus test is a pie plate at 10 feet you are barely even starting to get competent in my book so have you fulfilled your responsibility?
Maybe your responibility should be to just know what your abilitys are with what you carry and stay within your ability?

Also as I've tried to point out if you would actually push that plate out to 10-15 yards and get 6 on consistant with the DB you'll find it's really not that much tougher with the Cobra.

A j-frame and a speed strip isn't really what i'd consider armed


:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Tony you have to remember he can't shoot a J frame worth a dang.:uhoh:

Onward Allusion
September 8, 2011, 12:50 PM
Guillermo
<SNIP>But spray and pray is not a strategy.

I don't think anyone advocated "spray and pray", especially with a 5 shot snub. Folks who carry/own/shoot comes in all sizes, sexes, and skill. Some people practice a lot and they can use a 2" revolver to land tight groups at 25 yards - at the range. Most people can't. I go to both indoor and outdoor ranges often and I can squarely state that while most people will hit the black at 5, 7, & 10 yards they can't hold tight groups beyond that with any handgun. 25 yards for them is really pushing it, and it would be foolhardy for them to do in a real world bad situation. People do what they can or care to do. Some will go to the range multiple times a week and some will go a few times a year. It cost money and time to get proficient. Many people have challenges with one or both. Everyone here has to realize that this is a gun forum and those here are usually better shooters than "regular" people.

BTW, how many of all y'all have been in a real gunfight? Believe me when I say that it is quite a bit different than the range where you take your time, breathe, aim, and pull the trigger. The news stories that talk about emptying dozens of rounds and no one was hit have validity.

BTW, J-Frames, Airlights, UltraLites...etc all have a place in SD. I just don't happen to carry one.

Onward Allusion
September 8, 2011, 12:52 PM
SwampWolf
And if you can't "get the hell out of the situation" (a not unplausable scenario), what then? You find yourself in a "real world situation", heart racing, adrenaline pumping, whether you like it or not. What then? You don't shoot to save yourself or someone else from being killed (the only reason to be involved in a gunfight to start with) because all you are armed with is a snub-nosed revolver? That pie plate at 25 yards you talk about that you can hit only 50 to 75 per cent of the time with a snubbie? I'm not that great of a shot but I can hit it regularly 90 to 100 per cent of the time with a snub nose revolver. Guaranteed. Lots of practice can make you a lot more proficient than you give yourself credit for.

Did anyone say not to shoot to save your own life if you can't get out of the situation??? I'm glad you can hit that pie plate with 90%+ accuracy. But that's you - not me.

Let me pose this question. At 25 yards away, would you really use 1 of your 5 rounds or would you wait for a better opportunity and seek cover?

I don't like snubs in general and I don't practice much with one. If I had to use one, it would be up close and personal. Does that mean I don't do well with my other guns? Hardly.

Andrew Wyatt
September 8, 2011, 03:42 PM
That's a slippery slope you've placed yourself on. your very correct a ~2" snub is a tough gun to master. I rarely see people who are competent with a SP101 which is a damn sight heavier than a 442/642 (BTW neither are scandium). If your litmus test is a pie plate at 10 feet you are barely even starting to get competent in my book so have you fulfilled your responsibility?
Maybe your responibility should be to just know what your abilitys are with what you carry and stay within your ability?

Also as I've tried to point out if you would actually push that plate out to 10-15 yards and get 6 on consistant with the DB you'll find it's really not that much tougher with the Cobra.


Tony you have to remember he can't shoot a J frame worth a dang.:uhoh:


You were making a lot of sense untill you started making judgements based on no information.


My point, and it's been consistent through this entire exercise, is that J-frames are hard to shoot, and the pocket 9mm handguns, like the PM9, and the ruger LCP are easier to make hits with. A J-frame can go good things if you have enough skill, but that's despite the J-frame being a less than ideal tool for the job.

If you pick something more appropriate to the circumstances, with greater sight radius, and better trigger, you will do better.

mavracer
September 8, 2011, 05:34 PM
You were making a lot of sense untill you started making judgements based on no information.
All the information I need is right here and in most of your other posts.

My point, and it's been consistent through this entire exercise, is that J-frames are hard to shoot, and the pocket 9mm handguns, like the PM9, and the ruger LCP are easier to make hits with. A J-frame can go good things if you have enough skill, but that's despite the J-frame being a less than ideal tool for the job.
It doesn't matter how many times you say it but that statement is not universally true. I have no harder time making hits with my 442 than my LC9 ( which BTW I hope you meant and not a LCP .380) or any other of my pocket and small IWB guns.

If you pick something more appropriate to the circumstances, with greater sight radius, and better trigger, you will do better.
I'm thinkin I do just fine ;)
But if you learn to line up the sights proper and learn proper trigger control, You'll do better and maybe quit blaming the machine for operator error.

PRM
September 8, 2011, 07:27 PM
But if you learn to line up the sights proper and learn proper trigger control, You'll do better and maybe quit blaming the machine for operator error.

Yep, what he said. Lot of truth and few words. Well stated.

Guillermo
September 8, 2011, 08:46 PM
I don't think anyone advocated "spray and pray", especially with a 5 shot snub

I concur...I don't anyone advocated it. But based on my observation, most folks that I see shoot their ultralight and titanium J Frames are relegated to doing just that.

Certainly we would like to think that we THR folks are a cut above the average shooter...and many are. (I can't outshoot Mav)

But in my experience, few are willing to put in the time to shoot a small, light snub well.

And it I opine that it is out responsibility to shoot out carry guns well.

HexHead
September 8, 2011, 09:13 PM
I and a 442 which I carried a lot and shot as little as possible. I ended up trading it for a S&W Model 1917. Ended up getting another snubby, but a Colt Detective Special. I love it.

Tony_the_tiger
September 8, 2011, 09:18 PM
the pocket 9mm handguns, like the PM9, and the ruger LCP are easier to make hits with.

I think you might belong in the autoloader forum :neener:

Although any firearm can malfunction, I'd trust my life to the reliability of a revolver over a semi-automatic pistol any day.

What really matter is awareness, proficiency, and preparedness. Bullet on target, or the presentation of a weapon that ends the situation before shots are even fired. Usually, the perp won't know if it was a .380 or a .38 special + p that just made their day.

But ...when that LCP stovepipes you won't have any other option but to click your rings together and hope captain planet saves your butt in time!

http://www.mommygoggles.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/captain-planet-and-group2.jpg

Andrew Wyatt
September 8, 2011, 10:12 PM
But if you learn to line up the sights proper and learn proper trigger control, You'll do better and maybe quit blaming the machine for operator error.

Look, i get it. You really like your j-frame. That doesnt really warrant being surly with people who disagree.

Andrew Wyatt
September 8, 2011, 10:20 PM
But ...when that LCP stovepipes you won't have any other option but to click your rings together and hope captain planet saves your butt in time!

Or i could clear the malfunction and get back to shooting. malfunctions arent fight stoppers if you've spent the time to learn how to clear them. No disrespect meant to your malfunction clearing method, of course.

Onward Allusion
September 8, 2011, 10:23 PM
Gawd, I just re-read this thread... We are a touchy bunch when it comes to guns, skill sets, & personal values... Myself included. I'm going to take up knitting! ;)

Tony_the_tiger
September 8, 2011, 10:47 PM
Hand-knit speedloader pouch? I'll take 2!

skidder
September 8, 2011, 11:35 PM
Air biscuit guns are for sissies. If you're to weak to hold a steel gun, your to weak to pull the trigger. There's a reason why they cost less.

Step up and buy a real gun, pot metal is for pots.:neener:

Tony_the_tiger
September 9, 2011, 12:01 AM
"hey, is that an all steel handgun in your pants, or are you just happy to see me? oh..."

mark1616
September 9, 2011, 12:42 AM
"Everyone should get off their high horses, the horsesh*t is starting to pile up."

The thing that made me competent with my 642 is the same thing that made me competent with my CM9. Practice.

I practice so that I can be as confident and proficient as possible with each of my chosen carry tools. Otherwise I would not carry them.

Air-weights aren't for everybody. In fact there is no one firearm that IS for everybody.

Tony_the_tiger
September 9, 2011, 12:52 AM
Andrew, I guess you have a point :D

Kendal Black
September 9, 2011, 01:10 AM
I like the Airweights myself, and for some uses even the Airlites may make sense. Smith & Wesson, though, will happy to sell you the all steel sort. They still make them because some people prefer them.

I've shot all three kinds. The heavier type bounces around less when you shoot it, as was explained by Mr. Newton (the apple tree guy, not the high velocity rifle guy).

Hmm... If you think about it, pistol makers are in business to accommodate differences of opinion. ;) :evil:

Guillermo
September 9, 2011, 09:21 AM
I practice so that I can be as confident and proficient as possible with each of my chosen carry tools. Otherwise I would not carry them.

God Bless You

mavracer
September 9, 2011, 10:12 AM
Look, i get it. You really like your j-frame. That doesnt really warrant being surly with people who disagree.
No you really don't, I wouldn't have said anything if you said "I don't like J-Frames".

Air biscuit guns are for sissies. If you're to weak to hold a steel gun, your to weak to pull the trigger.
And yet much of the dislike comes from the recoil hurting "my wittle hands" :what::neener::cool:

Guillermo
September 9, 2011, 02:36 PM
much of the dislike comes from the recoil hurting "my wittle hands"

my lack of affection is not pain but follow up shots.

most have not taken the time and effor to shoot like you do Mav. (including me)

if they did I would not look for cover when someone pulls out a light J frame

David E
September 9, 2011, 04:12 PM
Every now and then, I pick the right thread to stay out of.....

It seems that people confuse Bullseye marksmanship with defensive shooting. Being able to make tiny groups at a leisurely pace is far removed from the dynamics of a quickly unfolding defensive situation.

Hitting a 50 yd hostile target, while possible, isn't very likely to be necessary.

What is likely is a hostile target within 5 yds. It would behoove anyone carrying a gun for defense to attain an "adequate" level of proficiency, at least within that distance.

Trying to define "proficiency standards" is like herding cats, but it should include specifics (target, distance, acceptable group size and speed) as opposed to vague statements like "as fast as you can."

An Airweight is easier to carry, but some object to the kick. Some for the pain, others for the perceived lack of quick, accurate follow-up shots.

These things can be addressed with different stocks and/or technique, but I would never load .357's in a Scandium snubbie, as it hurt waaaay too much. To fix that, I'd have to put on rubber grips, making it too big for its intended role. I'd load it with +P .38 158 LSWCHP's and call it good.

The "5 in 5 at 5" is exceedingly generous. This thread is the first time I saw it was simply a starting point. Every other time I'd seen it, the poster seemed to be using it as the ultimate goal.

I like a sheet of typing paper at 10 feet, hand on holstered gun start, draw a fire 5 shots in 3 seconds. That allows a full second for the first shot (hand on gun start, remember) and relaxing 1/2 second for each follow-up shot.

It's a higher standard, but not especially difficult. If you don't think you can do it, I'd bet that you could after some serious practice and 50 rds.

Andrew Wyatt
September 9, 2011, 04:25 PM
I think your standard is a good one, but I think 15 yards is a better distance.

Guillermo
September 9, 2011, 04:29 PM
It's a higher standard, but not especially difficult.

David...you have mentioned this before.

I had not spent a lot of time using a stopwatch, but reading your posts convinced me that the only way to improve was to measure.

I started with the "5, 5 , 5" that Old Fuff says is a good starting point. It was easy.

So I kept working on it. My minimum standard now to carry a gun is draw (unconcealed) and put six in a pie plate at 10 feet in 4 seconds or less.

At first I would ALWAYS have a flier or two. And the D frame I shoot seems to have a little longer trigger reset than a J frame. After a few tries I corrected my problem (if you draw with a bad grip it is better to correct it before shooting than shoot with an incorrect grip). 10, 6, 4 is not that hard if you get a good draw (the longest act). Once you are on target it is not difficult.

The bottom line is that I am better prepared than ever.

Thank you

David E
September 9, 2011, 05:05 PM
I think your standard is a good one, but I think 15 yards is a better distance.

Why? Most confrontations are 7 yds or less.

fastbolt
September 9, 2011, 05:08 PM
Yeah, some threads do seem to devolve into things best avoided, at times. ;)

Anyway, I liked this part of what you wrote:
The "5 in 5 at 5" is exceedingly generous. This thread is the first time I saw it was simply a starting point. Every other time I'd seen it, the poster seemed to be using it as the ultimate goal.

I like a sheet of typing paper at 10 feet, hand on holstered gun start, draw a fire 5 shots in 3 seconds. That allows a full second for the first shot (hand on gun start, remember) and relaxing 1/2 second for each follow-up shot.

It's a higher standard, but not especially difficult. If you don't think you can do it, I'd bet that you could after some serious practice and 50 rds.

I always thought the 5/5/5 reference was a bit generous, myself, although not something easily attained without some time & effort invested on a range, and probably after some refinement in the way of revolver shooting techniques involving the diminutive wheelguns.

When I returned to frequently using and carrying an increasing assortment of J's, I decided it was time to really dust off my revolver skills and see what needed resharpening. Once I could do the 5/5/5 even on a bad day, cold, I decided that was a good starting point upon which to really build some defensive shooting skills.

I eventually felt that being able to do a 1-handed, 5-shot group from a waist-level shooting position, into the size of a fist, at 3 yards, in 3 seconds or less, was something I wanted to be able to do ... COLD ... on any day, ranging from best to worst. An arbitrary standard, perhaps, but one I thought appropriate for my needs.

At my best I was able to get 4 shots touching each other, and on my worst (after recovering from surgery & illness) I was able to hold it to an approx fist-sized grouping.

Moving the grouping to the specific area intended on a lightly outlined anatomical threat target each time took some further work, but doesn't it always? Changing the positioning of myself and changing the nature of the target's presentation helped keep me "flexible", to the degree safely permissible on the range. Anyway, the last time I had a chance to read about the results of one large state agency's review of officer-involved shootings which occurred over several years, it indicated that more than 60% of the instances involved movement on the part of both the involved officers and the suspects ... so, relying on a stationary target is probably overly optimistic.

I've also taken one of my J's, at random, and used it to consistently hit metal target plates (NOT 6" plates, but partial silhouettes, I suppose you could call them). Just to check my basics (grip, sights, trigger press). Ditto on going out to 35-60 yds on regular targets, just for a skills check from time to time.

I've watched a lot of folks qualify with snub nosed revolvers over the years. The Airweights and Airlites have been increasing in popularity, no doubt. I'd not want to go out on a limb, though, and imply that the additional refinement of revolver skillset needed for the little guns has been necessarily keeping pace with the resurgence of popularity.

Unfortunately, the age of the revolver shooter seems to be waning, and this is one of those times where I mention how much I lament not having LE shooters trained to shoot DA revolvers with odd grip stock shapes, long & heavy DA triggers, many of which were chambered in Magnum revolver calibers and having to aim to get hits with their limited number of rounds. :)

I had one of older shooters (my age group :eek: ) bring an old steel M36 to a qual course and ask me about upgrading to an Airweight. I asked him how well he could use the steel one, and offered to let him try one of my Airweights, with both standard and +P ammo. After realizing his revolver skills had degraded, even with his steel J using standard pressure loads, he was quite surprised by how much harder it was for him to use the Airweight.

We spent some time over 2-3 sessions where I did some one-on-one work with him, pretty much just revisiting his previous revolver training and refining it a bit for the smaller, lighter, harder-to-hold & shoot snub gun. Once I got him back to the point where he was able to get his grip working well, and where he was able to use the smaller & harder-to-see sight alignment/picture on the longer shots (for qual), and was able to do a consistently smooth trigger press (instead of trying to stage the trigger - which is never advised for defensive use) ... he rediscovered his revolver skills and really surprised himself by how well he could shoot the little gun.

We tried him with an Airweight again at that point, but he (wisely) decided that he ought to remain carrying the steel 36, at least for the time being.

Why? Because his confidence in being able to use it was justified.

Now, while I try to avoid getting involved in influencing which make/model/caliber someone chooses for an off-duty/retirement/CCW weapon, in his case I did make it apparent I felt he was better off, at least for a while ... meaning until he'd invested a lot more time in some range work with me ... in avoiding the Airweight/Airlite models. For now, that's a "breaking point" for him. Dunno how long that might remain the case, though, since it's really up to him.

I think he ought to do whatever it takes to perform at the level he feels necessary, for his needs, in his situation (and which meets qual standards, at a minimum).

Some folks like - and can effectively use - the lighter J's. Good for them.

Some don't like them, and some can't effectively use them as well as other guns. Both of these types of folks ought to be able to choose something else for themselves, right?

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread yet ... for those who haven't nodded off during my wordiness :uhoh: ... is how the dimintuive S&W 5-shot snub is often the personal off-duty weapon of choice, more often, for many experienced firearms instructors.

Sure, we all have other platforms we prefer when it comes to carrying something larger and capable of more easily achieved practical accuracy, power, capacity, etc ... but it's the little J-frame that often gets the nod when it comes time to drop something into a pocket holster, and we want that "something" to be reliable, not unduly affected by shooter grip issues or ammunition tolerance, and yet still possess a basic level of proven ballistic performance.

Of all the many LE instructors I've known over the years who chose to carry a J on their own time, when they just didn't feel like belting on a big gun after having done so while working, the preferences in the models has evolved quite a bit. Fortunately, S&W seems to make something for just about everybody. No more being limited to something in blue, nickel or stainless. :)

Maybe that's why it's their strongest selling revolver line?

The ammunition companies have certainly noticed this trend, since they've been improving their defensive ammunition offerings for the venerable .38 Spl cartridge, too.

Carry on folks. Choose what you like. I do. :)

Get the training and build the skillset. Realize the importance of mindset. Know the laws involving the use of deadly force in defense of self and others. Make sure you're in good enough physical condition to handle and shoot a gun. Then, practice frequently enough to keep your skills up.

Andrew Wyatt
September 9, 2011, 05:11 PM
Why? Most confrontations are 7 yds or less.


In my experience, when under stress, your ability to hit takes a nosedive. Train to a higher standard so you can do worse than your training and still be adequate for the job.

David E
September 9, 2011, 05:15 PM
I had not spent a lot of time using a stopwatch, but reading your posts convinced me that the only way to improve was to measure.

I hope you mean shot timer, but a stop watch is a good start. There is a shot timer app for iPhones, if you have one.

People ridicule using a shot timer, but it's essential for discovering many things about your shooting, much more than a stopwatch can tell you.

The bottom line is that I am better prepared than ever.

Thank you

I may have sparked the fire, but the credit goes to you for doing something about it. Kudos.

Guillermo
September 9, 2011, 05:35 PM
I hope you mean shot timer, but a stop watch is a good start

I don't always have access to a shot timer...when I don't a buddy with a stopwatch is what I have to use.

iPhone app!!!....goodbye stopwatch.

FYI, the guy I shoot with has a 3 inch airweight. His time with it is abysmal.
He did me a huge favor and I re-payed him with a pristine 3rd Generation Detective Special.

The larger grip has improved his shooting immensely.

David E
September 9, 2011, 05:36 PM
In my experience, when under stress, your ability to hit takes a nosedive. Train to a higher standard so you can do worse than your training and still be adequate for the job.

While I understand your reasoning, I presented this as MY baseline, not the ultimate goal.

The problem with repeatedly hitting a small target at distance is that you can't really do it fast. This is totally contrary to my view of personal defensive skills where "accurate enough" speed trumps pinpoint accuracy. Some may insist on hitting the second shirt button in, say, 3 seconds. Me, I'd take anything inside the nipples in 1.5 seconds or less.

Instead of increasing the distance, I'd prefer to shorten the time frame and tighten up the group size.

For example, a full IPSC target, fire a 5-shot fist size group somewhere in the A zone in 2 seconds or less.

THEN increase the distance until you can do it at 5 yds, then 7 yds, then....

Guillermo
September 9, 2011, 05:58 PM
I'd prefer to shorten the time frame and tighten up the group size.

I concur

The closer the threat, the more likely that speed is an asset.

Most urban confrontations occur at 5 feet.

mavracer
September 9, 2011, 06:08 PM
Why? Most confrontations are 7 yds or less.
Andrew has a good point I'd add why train to be average?

So I kept working on it. My minimum standard now to carry a gun is draw (unconcealed) and put six in a pie plate at 10 feet in 4 seconds or less.

Don't quit working ;)

I think he ought to do whatever it takes to perform at the level he feels necessary, for his needs, in his situation (and which meets qual standards, at a minimum).
As much as I'd like all the good guys in the world to shoot like a pro, I don't agree with a universal minimum standard. The standard should be left up to the individule as ultimatly we're all responsible for our own actions. If I take a shot that beyond my own known capabilitys and cause collareral damage I should be held accountable. Alternativly if LEOs don't have a responsability to protect anyone why should I be held accountable for holding fire.

For example, a full IPSC target, fire a 5-shot fist size group somewhere in the A zone in 2 seconds or less.

THEN increase the distance until you can do it at 5 yds, then 7 yds, then....
If I start with the target at 25yards and work on speed and you start at 2 seconds and work your way out will it matter if we both end up at 25 yards with 5 A zone hits in 2 sec.

heeler
September 9, 2011, 06:25 PM
Well I'm back to square one with this Smith Airweight J frame.
I took my model 37 along with a brand new Kel Tec P 32 to shoot this afternoon.
Since the P32,a caliber and pistol I have never owned or for that matter shot was first up in battery.
At 10 feet I kept ever shot(7) in a five inch circle COM.
After two more magazines I grabbed the Smith and loaded 5 rounds of 130 grain UMC fmj into it and as usual found I was shooting the damn thing at least a foot high.....Sigh...
After twenty rounds the fierce recoil had nicked and bloodied my index finger and I put it away and started back on the KelTec.
I fired the last two magazines at 21 feet(7 yards) and could still keep the little Shetland pony of a pistol shots in an six inch circle.
Tried another go with the J frame.
After the first two shots that was waaay off and my index finger smarting I gave up.
Why is it so hard to shoot these things??
I am not asking this to be an an antagonist in the thread but why can I take my two micro 380's and now this new P 32 and shoot the J frame out of the water??
What's the secret here???

David E
September 9, 2011, 08:06 PM
Andrew has a good point I'd add why train to be average?

Who suggested that? See my follow-up.

The standard should be left up to the individual.

It already is. The problem is you have a lot of delusional people thinking they're far better than they are, such as my friend who confidently stated he was good enough to "blow a man in 1/2" with his BHP. But he didn't know the slide stop from the safety.

If I start with the target at 25yards and work on speed and you start at 2 seconds and work your way out will it matter if we both end up at 25 yards with 5 A zone hits in 2 sec.

I'm glad you brought that up. First, it presumes we will both get there. If so, I'd attain the skill sooner. The longer answer is my speed at 5 feet would be faster than 2 seconds. To expound further, my groups would be tighter than simply "A zone," especially at the closer distances. Plus, starting closer, I'm going to have a series of successes before you ever have one. And what if neither of us can get 5 shots in the "A" zone at 25 yds, what then? In your case, you're frustrated, never having reached your single goal. Me, I take comfort in the fact that I CAN meet that standard at 20 yds and closer.

I see people say all the time, "if I get good at 25 yds, then I can also do anything closer without practicing it." If all they do is slowfire, I'd agree, but I'm talking speedy hits at defensive ranges with a gun that's difficult to shoot well.

David E
September 9, 2011, 08:23 PM
After twenty rounds the fierce recoil had nicked and bloodied my index finger...
Why is it so hard to shoot these things??

What's the secret here???

Bloodied your index finger? On the support hand?

Maybe take a pic of the gun and how you're holding it.

heeler
September 9, 2011, 08:26 PM
The trigger finger.

amd6547
September 9, 2011, 08:39 PM
God...I wonder how people defended themselves with handguns before the pontifications of the Internet.

PRM
September 9, 2011, 08:49 PM
Nine (9) pages and counting... Gotta love the internet

David E
September 9, 2011, 09:01 PM
Heeled, pm me a pic and describe your technique.

Heaven forbid I should pontificate online about it.......:rolleyes:

mavracer
September 9, 2011, 10:25 PM
I'm glad you brought that up.
no problem and I'm glad you responded in typical speed first fasion;)
First, it presumes we will both get there.
Don't worry been there done that got the T-shirt and moved to 50 yards.
If so, I'd attain the skill sooner.
not so sure. See I worked on the fundamentals of sight picture and proper quick suprise break trigger pull then obtaining sight picture quickly.
The longer answer is my speed at 5 feet would be faster than 2 seconds.
As would mine since I'm working on quickly obtaining a sight picture from the holster and from a low ready my mucsle memory is being trained to bring the gun into view with the sights in near perfect alignment so at 5 feet the gun naturally flashes on target where my eyes are trained.
To expound further, my groups would be tighter than simply "A zone," especially at the closer distances.
mine will too probably not as drastic of difference between 5 fee and 25 yards as your 25 yard groups will be much larger to start with.
Plus, starting closer, I'm going to have a series of successes before you ever have one. And what if neither of us can get 5 shots in the "A" zone at 25 yds, what then? In your case, you're frustrated, never having reached your single goal.
here's where I know your in uncharted terratory for your skill level.
sure starting close allows you to see hits on paper but as you move out you will hit a wall so to say (usually about 15-20 yards) when you need the fundamentals of a sight picture and trigger control. now your having trouble with inconsistant hits and are going to have to either learn proper use of the sight and trigger control. which is a problem now compounded but the bad habits you'll have to break. or you'll do what I always hear and
take comfort in the fact that I CAN meet that standard at 20 yds and closer.
is good enough because
Most confrontations are 7 yds or less.
:eek:

mark1616
September 9, 2011, 10:28 PM
God...I wonder how people defended themselves with handguns before the pontifications of the Internet.
Heh heh heh

heeler
September 9, 2011, 10:51 PM
David...First I have zero issues shooting my micro 380's,the new Kel Tec P 32,my Kahr PM9 or my Ruger Service Six.
I dont own a digital camera(and no my cell phone does not take pictures) and even if I did I would not know how to post a picture anyway.
The simple truth is the trigger on my J frame just eats my trigger finger after several shots.

David E
September 9, 2011, 10:59 PM
Don't worry been there done that got the T-shirt and moved to 50 yards.

Ok, so you're telling me that you're firing 5 shots, "A" zone only, in two seconds using an Airweight .38 snubnose, right? (this thread IS about Airweight .38's, after all) From the holster? Low ready? Timed how?

here's where I know your in uncharted terratory (SP) for your skill level.

Quite the leap you made there, hope you used a parachute!

I shot the Department record high score using a Smith & Wesson Model 38 (Airweight Bodyguard, old style) on the 50 yd course back in 1988, which still stands today. I fired the entire thing double action, including the weak-hand strings at 25 and 50 yds. Last month I won a State Snubnose Match using a DAO 442, so I'm pretty sure I could keep up with most snubby shooters.......well, except for you, of course! :rolleyes:

You sure talk a good game, I'll give you that.

David E
September 9, 2011, 11:00 PM
Heeled, eating it how?

Describe your hold.

heeler
September 9, 2011, 11:06 PM
Well David I'm not looking at my finger while shooting but again it's only this pistol that does this.
It's seems worse with the recoil and finger punishment using 158 grain fmj ammo.
Actually both sides of the trigger finger gets punished with the 158's.
I cant even imagine using plus P's.
This early 70's pistol also has the original wood grips if that's any help.
Honestly it's the most uncomfortable pistol to shoot I have tried.

mavracer
September 10, 2011, 12:31 AM
Ok, so you're telling me that you're firing 5 shots, "A" zone only, in two seconds using an Airweight .38 snubnose, right? (this thread IS about Airweight .38's, after all) From the holster? Low ready? Timed how?
Yes 25 yards with either the 442 pictured earlier or my LCR although sometimes I use a B27 and use the 9 ring as a benchmark, from the low ready, and the pact club timer I mentioned earlier. It's a big reason behind my ability it has par time and a random start so that I can practice by my self setting the par time at the desired goal I can just focus on getting done before the second beep.
I'll concede the spelling bee.
And while I don't have any big wins on my resume even at the club level mostly because we had 4 master class shooters and it's kinda tough to set any records when your shooting against Fred Craig. But I was a solid A class uspsa shooter when I quit shooting IPSC in '96. Back then I was also shooting IHSMA and bowling pins. I took some time off from comp but started shooting IDPA in 2008 and have made Expert in all 5 classes.
Maybe my problem is I don't just look at shooting only for defensive purposes. I don't even look at competetion as competetive as I used to. The reason I quit IPSC is it had become an equipment race. I now get more enjoyment just trying to push the limits of my ability and the mechanical limits of the guns. Last fall I shot my SP101 in a informal bullseye league and still finished 5th in raw score.

iflyem1
September 10, 2011, 01:03 AM
Let's just agree that some people are just not ment to shoot an airweight and some are. No big deal.

David E
September 10, 2011, 03:49 AM
Yeah, Fred is pretty salty, but Jamie is a bit more so. I've beaten them both, but it's never easy or certain.

"A" class is where the "good" label starts to apply. As you know, there are two levels past it. :)

Heeler, when I get on my computer I'll PM you.

Iflyem1, Most people don't shoot a snubby well, but most people simply don't know how.

heeler
September 10, 2011, 09:54 AM
Look forward to the PM David.
And thanks.
Perhaps it's me or the shape of my Model 37 or maybe I could shoot a gun like an LCR better...I dont know because the Smith is the only one I have.
I really dont want to get rid of it because of it's age and build quality but if I just dont shoot it well then...We will see after I give it some more time.

Warhorse1
September 10, 2011, 10:17 AM
I love my 638.

Old "humpy" is getting more carry time than ever before, just to damned convenient.

skidder
September 10, 2011, 11:54 AM
heeler-- Throw it under the seat of your wood truck for a backup, just in case someone tries to bump you out of your cutting spot. A 38 and a chainsaw make a statement when one of those deliverance fruits pulls up and tries to muscle you out. Those Jack wagons don't know its pot metal, and they don't have a clue you can't hit the side of barn.

I can't hit jack with those darn things, but they still look like guns. I have an old Saturday night special with me and it looks like hell. When it gets snagged on the brush or hit by a branch it just adds to the character.

I hope this solves your problem. :D

mavracer
September 10, 2011, 01:05 PM
Yeah, Fred is pretty salty, but Jamie is a bit more so. I've beaten them both, but it's never easy or certain.
Yes even back then Jamie was a bit faster althoug Fred was more consistant. I know (at least back then) they wern't mucch on sportsmanship. Their guns were louder when a chrony was at the match yet always claimed major and it seamed they were allergic to pasters and brass. Back then before Jamie was moved to GM he was easy to beat all you had to do is set up a classifier, he'd tank it to stay in a lower class. That kind of stuff was part of my quiting IPSC.

oldfool
September 10, 2011, 02:45 PM
so... is ol' Fred into micro magnum next generation defense pistolas these days, or what ?

(must be time to get up some fresh popcorn here; day old does get better with enough salt and butter when proper made fresh, but it do get a little stale after the 1st week)

JoeShmoe
September 10, 2011, 10:02 PM
Pie plates and pieces of folded paper are not a threat. Seems to me that defensive training should be done with realistic "bad guy" targets, at fighting distances.

If I can draw and fire 5 shots from my 340PD to center of mass, in a reasonably fast time, I'm good with that. Yes I practice with 357 Magnums, and no I don't miss much.

I respect the guys that can do all the things that have been discussed here, but I don't know if it's going to help you win the gunfight.

Guillermo
September 10, 2011, 10:53 PM
defensive training should be done with realistic "bad guy" targets

paper is paper

Andrew Wyatt
September 10, 2011, 10:55 PM
Pie plates and folded pieces of paper are smaller than the targets you will be facing. If you can hit those at distance and speed, you will be overprepared for the best case scenario.

9mmforMe
September 10, 2011, 11:08 PM
I love the model 642. I learned to shoot with a double action revolver and think it prepared me for any trigger system I have fired since. The .38 +Ps are quite manageable. Great gun.

David E
September 11, 2011, 12:23 AM
If I can draw and fire 5 shots from my 340PD to center of mass, in a reasonably fast time, I'm good with that. Yes I practice with 357 Magnums, and no I don't miss much.

Please define "reasonably fast."

How big a group at what distance in what time frame is acceptable to you?

Please be specific.

JoeShmoe
September 11, 2011, 09:14 AM
Please define "reasonably fast."

How big a group at what distance in what time frame is acceptable to you?

Please be specific.
Tight groups are not the objective in a gunfight. A 6 or even 8 inch group within the center of mass will stop the threat. Reasonably fast is fast enough to place your shots before he shoots you. Fighting distance is anything from 0 to 10 yards.

I'm not saying there is no value in being able to rapidly place five shots into a tight group at 10 yards. Muscle memory and trigger control are important. I think it is an assumption that if this is all you do, you will come out on top in a real fight.

JoeShmoe
September 11, 2011, 09:18 AM
Pie plates and folded pieces of paper are smaller than the targets you will be facing. If you can hit those at distance and speed, you will be overprepared for the best case scenario.
I understand the concept of "aim small miss small", but there is more to it. Pie plates don't present a shoot, no shoot, decision. They don't move. A bad guy is not going to have a circle on his chest. I think defensive training should be somewhat realistic. Practice moving. Practice shooting from cover. Practice with more than one assailant. Practice shooting under stress.

Guillermo
September 11, 2011, 10:54 AM
David,

Mav has suggested that Fred and Jamie are cheaters.

Would you like to comment on that?

Also, would you comment on practicing w lower power cartridges?

I have found that even when practicing with low power (cheap) rounds it improves my shooting with more stout rounds. My theory is that practice is practice.

David E
September 11, 2011, 10:58 AM
Tight groups are not the objective in a gunfight. A 6 or even 8 inch group within the center of mass will stop the threat.

Realistically, anything "C" zone or better of an IPSC target should have an effect. It's a pretty big area, but a sheet of typing paper (unfolded) placed in the chest of the target isn't that tough to hit at 10 feet or less. Any hit is better than any miss, but a high chest hit is preferred over a peripheral hit.

[/quote] Reasonably fast is fast enough to place your shots before he shoots you.[/quote]

This sounds all wise and crap, but it's impossible to train for. One person might think "reasonably fast" is one or two seconds.....per shot. What's wrong with assigning a basic standard to test your skill against? Five shots on a sheet of typing paper at five feet in 3 seconds isn't difficult at all.

I think it is an assumption that if this is all you do, (shoot small groups fast) you will come out on top in a real fight.

There are never guarantees, but I would much rather have someone by my side that CAN shoot small groups fast than someone who shoots "reasonably fast" who thinks "reasonable" is a second per shot and thinks the little toe is just as good a target as center chest.

David E
September 11, 2011, 11:10 AM
I understand the concept of "aim small miss small", but there is more to it. Pie plates don't present a shoot, no shoot, decision. A bad guy is not going to have a circle on his chest.

I think you're getting caught up in the pie plate or typing paper as a target. While I won't speak for anyone else, my goal is to have the group that size. If you'd prefer to shoot a realistic photo target of a bad guy without a pie plate, that's fine. Shoot your drill then see if a pie plate/paper would cover it.

This isn't supposed to be "shoot/don't shoot" determination, it's supposed to be skill building with an Airweight snub that you can do alone on the range.

I think defensive training should be somewhat realistic. Practice moving. Practice shooting from cover. Practice with more than one assailant. Practice shooting under stress.

All good things. Set it up and I'll come shoot it. Meanwhile, I'll shoot the TACSS Carrygun matches that address all those things.

David E
September 11, 2011, 11:21 AM
David,

Mav has suggested that Fred and Jamie are cheaters.

I have never seen or heard anyone say that Fred or Jamie cheat. What I have experienced personally is some people, when they get beaten by a better shooter, accuse the winner of somehow cheating. Apparently, it's easier to be beaten if you think the winner had to cheat to do it. :rolleyes:

Also, would you comment on practicing w lower power cartridges?

I have found that even when practicing with low power (cheap) rounds it improves my shooting with more stout rounds. My theory is that practice is practice.

Any shooting, done correctly, will help build your skills. That said, it's usually best to train with full power loads so you learn/reinforce how to properly manage recoil.

The one exception that comes to mind is shooting full house Corbon .357's in a Scandium J-frame with compact wood grips. :eek:

Guillermo
September 11, 2011, 11:35 AM
Any shooting, done correctly, will help build your skills. That said, it's usually best to train with full power loads so you learn/reinforce how to properly manage recoil.

That was what I thought you would say.

it's easier to be beaten if you think the winner had to cheat to do it

Not with me. I look at more skilled people as inspiration.

I used to drive competitively and did very well until our club joined a national club and our events garnered points for the national championship.

I quickly saw that
A- I was not the Stig
B- I had more work to do

No longer play the car games but have consistently improved.

With shooting I have used folks better than me as inspiration as well.

I will never be Jerry Miculek or Bob Mundon but there is not a damned reason why I can't constantly improve.

230therapy
September 11, 2011, 12:27 PM
I have found that even when practicing with low power (cheap) rounds it improves my shooting with more stout rounds. My theory is that practice is practice.

The low power rounds allow you to practice your trigger control without the mental tension that causes flinching or other mistakes.

I will never be Jerry Miculek or Bob Mundon but there is not a damned reason why I can't constantly improve.

Shoot 50,000+ rounds per year with a strict training schedule and you could shoot at their level.

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