Suppressors are now legal in Michigan


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Shyster
September 5, 2011, 03:45 PM
Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette issued a written opinion on 9/2/2011 stating Michigan residents are now allowed to own silencers. A link to the opinion is here: http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2010s/op10339.htm

I am offering NFA Trusts to those interested. Contact me at NFATrust@makowskilegal.com

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l3uster
September 6, 2011, 06:32 PM
Any indication of prices, or is this something better held in PMs?

7.62 Nato
September 9, 2011, 02:29 PM
Welcome to THR.

Shyster is very active in the 2A and Shooting Communities in Michigan.

Geno
September 9, 2011, 04:26 PM
Just wanted to post in order to vouch for Shyster. I am going the way of the NFA Trust. He is professional, and committed. He answered all questions in a timely and very thorough manner.

Welcome to THR, Shyster, and thank-you for reaching out to those of us interested in lawful possession and use NFA items.

Geno

Geno
October 1, 2011, 11:34 PM
Thanks, Shyster, for keeping me fully up-to-date through the NFA Trust process. :cool:

Geno

Geno
October 6, 2011, 10:05 AM
I stopped by to post that I just met in person with Shyster to sign the NFA Trust that he executed for me. He is very professional.

Geno

MrTactical
October 10, 2011, 11:52 AM
Welcome Shyster, I will contact you.

gearchecker
October 10, 2011, 02:51 PM
I'm an out of stater but used to live there and have family in Michigan, so I'm curious.

If silencers are legal in Michigan now, why go thru a trust?
Why not just pay the Fed tax stamp ($200 IIRC) and buy the silencer on your own? Silencers aren't all that expensive after all.

Regards,
Gearchecker

Shyster
October 10, 2011, 04:10 PM
If you are interested in purchasing a NFA device (machine gun or silencer) you should NEVER do so in an individual capacity but rather through a NFA Trust or a Corporation. The NFA Trust is the preferred vehicle since there are annual fees and reporting requirements for LLCs that are not associated with NFA Trusts. The following is an excellent explanation as to why one would wish to establish such a trust:



NFA Trust


An NFA trust is a legal instrument which must be properly drafted to be valid. It is an estate planning tool which can be used to acquire NFA (Class 3) weapons, suppressors and destructive devices. The trust instrument is usually a revocable trust which can be changed or modified at any time before the maker's death. This form provides flexibility. Trustees or beneficiaries can be added or deleted. Property can be transferred to or from the Trust. Such transfers must be documented in writing. A gun trust may own many NFA items. There is no need to set up a separate trust for each NFA item acquired. NFA items are transferred into the trust by means of an ATF Form 4. Non-NFA item such as paintings, collectables, rifles, pistols and shotguns are transferred to or from the trust by means of a bill of sale. The Form 4 and bill of sale document the transfers of property to and from the trust. This is very important as the Trustee who eventually distributes the trust assets upon its termination needs to know what the trust owns at a time when there is no one left alive to ask. It is these documents which provide a legal chain of title and evidence of ownership in the Trust.

Class 3 Gun Trusts Can Last Several Generations

Unless the trust property is transferred out of the Trust it remains a trust asset until the trust terminates. This provides a continuity of ownership for several generations. A gun trust usually provides for disposition of property much like a will but the assets remain in the trust for several generations. A typical well written NFA gun trust will last years after those who created it have passed away as well as the initial beneficiaries.

NFA Trust Property Distributed When Trust Terminates

When the trust terminates, typically about 70 years after it is formed, the assets on hand are distributed by the trustee to the beneficiaries. These are usually the grantor's grandchildren. NFA items distributed at the end of the trust are taxed. Each transferee must pay the $200.00 transfer tax for each Class 3 item. This is different from a decedent's estate where Class 3 items pass tax free to one's heirs. The heirs (or their transferees) must pay the $200.00 transfer tax when they sell or transfer their inherited NFA item.

Trustee Administers Trust Assets for Trust Beneficiaries

Trustee(s) administer the trust's assets for the benefit of the beneficiaries. When the Trustor/Grantor (creator of the Trust) dies the trust usually continues with a successor Trustee administering the trust for the remaining beneficiaries. Because the trust lasts such a long time, successor Trustees and contingent beneficiaries should also be designated. Such trusts are often used when the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) of an NFA buyer's home city refuses to sign a Form 4 authorizing the transfer of an NFA weapon. CLEO signoffs have become an ever increasing problem in today's security conscious world. An NFA trust or corporation is a separate legal entity. It is the actual purchaser of the NFA item and not an individual. Since an individual is not the purchaser (transferee) on the Form 4 (NFA transfer document) no CLEO approval is required. No fingerprint cards or photographs are required for transfers of Class 3 items to a trust.


http://www.guntrustlawyer.net/nfa_trust

Geno
January 28, 2012, 05:38 PM
Shyster:

Just an update per the e-mail you had sent me, and for the benefit of others.

Michigan does not require that an NFA Trust be registered with the probate court. However, now I am to understand that the BATFE will require that all NFA Trusts be registered with the states' probate courts.

There are others here in Michigan who want NFA Trusts, and this sounds as though it will be done across all states. For me personally, I elected to spend $400.00 for an NFA Trust precisely to avoid the local hassles and possible harassments of local "anti"s.

Please explain further.

Geno

GoingQuiet
January 28, 2012, 06:39 PM
If you are interested in purchasing a NFA device (machine gun or silencer) you should NEVER do so in an individual capacity but rather through a NFA Trust or a Corporation. The NFA Trust is the preferred vehicle since there are annual fees and reporting requirements for LLCs that are not associated with NFA Trusts. The following is an excellent explanation as to why one would wish to establish such a trust:
I try not to speak in absolutes, but to say that one should NEVER individually purchase an NFA item individually is an issue up for debate. In many states (Michigan included) you will have people who prefer not to have a trust and prefer individual ownership.

Also, your post is not correct as class 3 is a tax bracket and not an item. Anyone who is in the business of NFA should know the difference.

leadcounsel
January 28, 2012, 08:40 PM
Tagged!

Shyster
January 29, 2012, 11:23 AM
First "never" is a strong term I realize but the advantages in owning NFA items through a Trust rather than as an individual are so great I feel comfortable in standing behind that statement.

Second, the issue of trust registration is interesting. Under Michigan law an inter vivos trust need not be registered to be valid. Michigan law provides trust registration as an OPTION. However, I have been informed by a Class 3 dealer and his attorney that, since trust registration is available here the ATF examiner for Michigan is REQUIRING trust registration. I have been unable to confirm or deny this information as of yet so I am recommending that you have your trust registered to prevent any BATF delays in processing your Form 4.

That being said, I have had several people elect to not register their trusts and see if they receive BATF approval. As soon as I learn whether they were successful I will post an update.

A concern was voiced over reluctance to register trusts because of a desire to prevent local LEOs from learning that you posssess Class 3 devices. I would not be too concerned about this for a couple of reasons. First, it would require a clerk at the probate court to contact the police directly, the chance of which I deem remote to say the least. Second, the Trust is registered before an Class 3 devices are purchased and you do not notify the court of the Trust's inventory. All you are doing by registering the Trust is to put the court on notice that such a trust exists, not what is owned by it.

Yes, I am still doing trusts for $400.00 if you are interested please contact me at NFATrust@makowskilegal.com to discuss further.

EDIT: Yes, I know Class 3 is a tax bracket and not an actual device label. I was speaking in laymen's terms. It is much easier to say "Class 3 item" than refer to "devices regulated under the National Firearms Act requiring a $200.00 tax stamp."

Always glad to see an appearance from the grammar police.

GoingQuiet
January 29, 2012, 11:34 AM
It is much easier to say "Class 3 item" than refer to "devices regulated under the National Firearms Act requiring a $200.00 tax stamp."



It is also wrong.

rjrivero
January 29, 2012, 11:49 AM
Title II firearm will suffice, Shyster.

It has nothing to do with grammar, but rather using the correct terms. If I was in the market for an NFA specific trust, I would expect the attorney I hire to write that trust to be familiar with the NFA. That does include using the correct terminology for the actual firearms to be entered into the trust. (And yes, as defined by NFA 5320.8 Chapter 2, a silencer is considered a firearm.)

RhinoDefense
January 29, 2012, 01:44 PM
Title II or NFA firearm is the correct term, even a lawyer should know and use proper terms.

JTW Jr.
January 29, 2012, 11:20 PM
If you are interested in purchasing a NFA device (machine gun or silencer) you should NEVER do so in an individual capacity

Never ? That is absurd. ( and sounds like someone who wants to make $$$ preparing trusts , might not be your intention , but that's my opinion ).

I know of way more owners of NFA firearms that are on a form 4 to them and not to the trust.

rjrivero
January 29, 2012, 11:56 PM
There are benefits to Trusts for NFA items. The fact that the NFA item can be controlled by Trustees is a big one. Especially if you use a suppressor on your home defense firearm.

CLEO sign offs aren't necessary for NFA Trusts. Not just for the person initially buying the item, but for those who inherit that item. Transfers to your children at the time of them inheriting the NFA Firearm can be as simple as using a Form 5, but if your children live in an area that has a non NFA friendly CLEO who won't sign one means that NFA Firearm stays in limbo.

I do believe that NFA Firearms should ALWAYS be transferred to a Trust. But that's my opinion. (I'm not a lawyer, and I don't make money on Trusts.) The benefits outweigh the cost of setting up a trust, IMVHO.

ATCDoktor
January 30, 2012, 12:59 AM
Transfers to your children at the time of them inheriting the NFA Firearm can be as simple as using a Form 5, but if your children live in an area that has a non NFA friendly CLEO who won't sign one means that NFA Firearm stays in limbo

This is nonsense, ATF Form 5's for individually owned NFA items do not require a CLEO's signature.

9.5.3.1 Distributions to heirs.
Although these distributions are not treated as “transfers” for
purposes of the NFA, Form 5 must be filed by an executor or administrator to register a firearm
to a lawful heir and the form must be approved by ATF prior to distribution to the heir. The
form should be filed as soon as possible. However, ATF will allow a reasonable time to arrange
for the transfer. This generally should be done before probate is closed. When a firearm is being
transferred to an individual heir, his or her fingerprints on FBI Forms FD-258 must accompany
the transfer application. The application will be denied if the heir’s receipt or possession of the
firearm would violate Federal, State, or local law. The law enforcement certification on the form
need not be completed. The form should also be accompanied by documentation showing the
executor’s or administrator’s authority to distribute the firearm as well as the heir’s entitlement
to the firearm. Distributions to heirs should not be made until Forms 5 are approved. Executors
and administrators are not required to have estate firearms registered to them prior to distribution to lawful heirs.

No CLEO can deny those heirs that can legally posssess NFA items their inheritance.

rjrivero
January 30, 2012, 11:18 AM
Thaks ATCDoctor. I assumed that since the Form 5 had the CLEO Signoff, it needed to be done. Didn't realize that it had a part of the form that isn't necessary. Appreciate that.

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