target for aiming


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johnnylaw53
September 5, 2011, 05:59 PM
Hi, I'm not sure what you call it but I saw a target somewhere on this site that showed you what you was doing wrong by tellling you where your group was on the target. I don't even know what part of this site I seem it on. I tried to do some searches but came up blank. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Sorry I afraid I'm not being very clear. thanks for any help.

be safe

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SnowBlaZeR2
September 5, 2011, 06:02 PM
This bad boy?


http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i323/John-Ferguson/wheel.jpg

ColtPythonElite
September 5, 2011, 06:06 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=148629&stc=1&d=1315260506

bigbomar4
September 5, 2011, 07:36 PM
Snowblazer if thats not what the OP was searching for it is what I was looking for. I assume that is for a right handed shooter so for a lefty just flip it side to side right?

Inebriated
September 5, 2011, 07:54 PM
Snowblazer if thats not what the OP was searching for it is what I was looking for. I assume that is for a right handed shooter so for a lefty just flip it side to side right?

Yep. Just copy it to paint, flip it, and blast away at the screen. :P lol

Lonestar49
September 5, 2011, 07:56 PM
...

Left it be done..

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc306/Lonestar49/CorrectionLH.jpg


Ls

9mmepiphany
September 5, 2011, 08:57 PM
Forgive the Drama....I've fought the battle and the beast refuses to die and reincarnation continues. But I will not give up, the war rages on...

The U.S. Army Marksmanship Training Guide...often referred to as the Handgun Technique Diagnostic Pie Chart (or something similar)...was developed for technique correction when shooting one-handed. It is hauled out whenever someone asks the question, "I'm doing this, what does it mean?"

It is only indirectly applicable to shooting technique when using the more common two handed grip styles.

However I must say that the illustration offered by ColtPythonElite is very good for showing correct sight alignment

BCRider
September 5, 2011, 09:42 PM
We should write up a new one for the currently popular two handed shooting. It would likely have less zones. with the key low and to the left for flinching/anticipating recoil being the big one. And in truth actually Lonestar's chart seems to be somewhat updated to two handed shooting. It's got the classic too much/too little trigger finger and a mention of thumbing which still applies.

So some of it is still valid.

The sights diagram is also excellent. I gotta print that out although it's pretty self explanatory.

9mmepiphany
September 5, 2011, 10:29 PM
The sights diagram is also excellent. I gotta print that out although it's pretty self explanatory.
It really is, but somehow some folks just seem to have a hard time relating the alignment of sights with the strikes on the target...I think it comes from trying to visualize on three planes

I've found that the big change in impact points when correcting two handed shooters has been that tightening the grip usually results in a low strike, which folks using the target try to correct with their wrist.

I've also found that the amount of trigger finger on the trigger face is less important as long as they can still press straight back...the effect of finger on the trigger is either reduced or accented by the uniformity of the grip pressure and it's area of contact with the frame

SnowBlaZeR2
September 5, 2011, 10:57 PM
The U.S. Army Marksmanship Training Guide...often referred to as the Handgun Technique Diagnostic Pie Chart (or something similar)...was developed for technique correction when shooting one-handed. It is hauled out whenever someone asks the question, "I'm doing this, what does it mean?"

It is only indirectly applicable to shooting technique when using the more common two handed grip styles.

Just to be clear, I didn't post that chart as a response to "I'm doing this, what does it mean?", I posted it as a response to "target somewhere on this site". I'm in no way saying this thing is the definitive marksmanship tool.

I will say that it's useful enough though, if you combine that with a few things, most importantly a bit of knowledge. I don't use a chart when I'm training Marines, but I use similar ideas to correct deficiencies. Generally, watching what a shooter is doing and where his rounds are impacting, it's fairly simple to figure out what that Marine is doing wrong.

Everything else aside, the chart does one very important thing. It forces a shooter to focus on the basic fundamentals of marksmanship.

9mmepiphany
September 6, 2011, 12:36 AM
I wasn't accusing you of that response, I apologize if it was taken that way....I realize that you were responding to the request for the chart. Of course, without a smilie it is hard to tell how you meant "bad" ;)

You give the chart more credit than I am willing to...maybe because I've seen too many people who did take it as gospel and tried to use it in place of most importantly a bit of knowledge

I will say that it was very helpful when I was trying my hand at Air Pistol shooting...now that is a real test of marksmanship skills

SnowBlaZeR2
September 6, 2011, 01:11 AM
I wasn't accusing you of that response, I apologize if it was taken that way....I realize that you were responding to the request for the chart. Of course, without a smilie it is hard to tell how you meant "bad" ;)

You give the chart more credit than I am willing to...maybe because I've seen too many people who did take it as gospel and tried to use it in place of most importantly a bit of knowledge

I will say that it was very helpful when I was trying my hand at Air Pistol shooting...now that is a real test of marksmanship skills

No sir, not how it was taken at all. Just didn't want my name associated with touting that chart is all. :)

I happen to agree that the chart is severely lacking. As I said, I was taught to use a similar method to evaluate a shooter's group, and it was much less involved than the nonsense depicted on the picture I posted. Reason being, we don't put much stock into something like that. It's nothing more than a guide tool for a shooter to focus on some fundamentals, which they should be doing anyways.

I would always recommend a new shooter to get training from a qualified individual as opposed to relying on a printed off target from the internet. However, once you learn what you are doing it can be a useful tool in my opinion.

Who knows though, maybe this all comes from my mentality of "never too much training". ;)

BCRider
September 6, 2011, 05:28 PM
9mm', you comments in post#9 are well aimed on both counts :D That's why it would be nice to produce a "modern" two hand grip style of similar target.

And while I agree with you about the "pull straight back" part it's been my experience with fairly new shooters that this is easier said than done. It's much easier to just get them to move their finger for fine tuning. Other than that I just try to get them to hinge their trigger finger mostly at the first joint out from the knuckle.

I've been helping out at my local Rent-A-Gun range on Friday Lady's Nights. So I've been getting more than my share of newbie and near newbie shooters the last few months. Both in terms of gals and guys since their dates often show up in "tow" :D I've seen some of the most meak first timers shoot tiny little groups that I'd be ecstatic to duplicate myself. I've also seen my share of "others" which should not be trusted with a dinner knife or Spork let alone a firearm. Frankly it's a wonder some of them have lived so long.

Anyway, I digress.... Back to the idea of a two handed trouble shooting target. I wish I could contribute but unfortunetly, or fortunetly, other than the ubiquitous "flinch" issue I can't really say that I've had any issues with other troubles. Other than a band that should surround the "pies" of the target that says "Gripping too darn hard" so when the group is all over the place they take stock and reduce the "white knuckle and shaking hands" pressure grip on the gun.

9mmepiphany
September 6, 2011, 06:16 PM
Other than a band that should surround the "pies" of the target that says "Gripping too darn hard" so when the group is all over the place they take stock and reduce the "white knuckle and shaking hands" pressure grip on the gun.
Preach the Gospel brother

Other than that I just try to get them to hinge their trigger finger mostly at the first joint out from the knuckle.
That is what I try to do too...I try to get them of back their finger out of the trigger guard so that there is space between their finger and the frame/grip. Most folks don't like the floating finger any more than they like the floating thumbs on the other side

I'll give a two-handed chart some thought. Like you I don't do the other things and don't really know their effect on bullet impact...I do admit to slapping the trigger more than I'd like...but I think just about everything else is grip pressure related or correct positioning of the gun in the hand

johnnylaw53
September 6, 2011, 07:10 PM
thanks Snow, that the one I was talking about. Was thinking it may help the wife a little been awhile since she shot and we went a week ago and she was not happy just wanted to show her it thinking she may be able to use it. thanks again

be safe

Stealth01
September 7, 2011, 08:58 AM
ColtPythonElite,
Just a quick comment on your graphics. The images you showed are valid ONLY if the gun has been setup for a "six o'clock" hold! Many weapons, such as Wilson Combat, are set up for POA-POI. Wilson's (45 1911's) are setup to be 1" high at 15 yards and dead on at 25 yards...

9mmepiphany
September 7, 2011, 12:28 PM
I took the graphics for their illustration value...to show the relationship of sight displacement to target strike...I don't think it was meant to be taken as a aiming guide (relationship between aligned sights and target)

If it showed a more centered sight alignment, you wouldn't even be able to see the result of the front sight being low in the rear notch

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