hazmat charge vs order size


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cemjr
September 10, 2011, 09:31 PM
when ordering supplies, what would be your minimum order size, to justify the hazmat charge? eg., 4k primres, 4lbs power. none of my shooting friends reload.

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Iron Sight
September 10, 2011, 10:27 PM
Consider your travel expenses to and from where your nearest reloading supplies are located along with possible savings on on the internet?

billyjoe
September 10, 2011, 10:30 PM
I order 15 to 20 thousand primers at a time. I found it more reasonable to buy powder at gun shows. If i were to order powder i woulb buy 16+ pounds at a time.

sam700
September 10, 2011, 10:31 PM
For me at least 8lbs of powder.

kingmt
September 10, 2011, 10:43 PM
I like the stuff dropped at my door. I don't have to pay for the gas or ware on my car to go get them & I need the time that would be spent.

The added bonus is it is way cheaper then getting them local. The bad thing is I can't get the best deal on powder & primers at the same place so I do 2 orders. I get about 20K primers & maybe pick up some lead bullets on the same order, I order 6 jugs of powder from another place which 6 jugs is the limit on the hazmat, & I order jacketed bullets from another which there is no hazmat for them. The only thing I buy local anymore is V-M bullets which I can't bet Walmarts' price on them & since I go there from time to time I buy 6 or 7 boxes to hold me so I don't make a trip just for them. Another bonus is you can get by without paying tax if you order from another state.

Hondo 60
September 10, 2011, 10:53 PM
My last order included 6,000 primers & 10 lbs of powder.
I had x dollars to spend & spent it all.
That'll keep me in powder for a year & primers for 6-8 months.

But the minimum would depend on the break-even point when figuring total cost.

oldreloader
September 10, 2011, 11:20 PM
If I order 2k primers I have saved enough to more than pay hazmat fees compared to my LGS. I usually order more than that though.LOL.:D

T Bran
September 10, 2011, 11:27 PM
My nearest BPS is 60 miles from home and 7.00 per LB more expensive than my online source for powder. So 25.00 hazmat fees are really a bargain for me.

RustyFN
September 10, 2011, 11:48 PM
If I order by myself I usually buy 8 pounds of powder and 10,000 primers. I usually order with a couple of friends and we max one out.

cfullgraf
September 10, 2011, 11:50 PM
A $250-$300 order begins to be the break point for me.

Around my parts, the powder and primers I prefer to use are not always easy to find. Much easier to find it from the comfort of my living room.

Gun shows are another source for me. Better these days than in 2009.

1SOW
September 11, 2011, 12:14 AM
The fact of your asking the question, probably means you have trouble finding supplies you need, or your cost is high locally.
That alone is pretty good justification for a $25 fee on say a $250 or more order. That $250 is an arbitrary amount. A bigger order is of course more economical, but I've made smaller orders due to 'necessity'.

Primers and powders can often be found cheaper on the internet. You usually don't have to pay sales taxes, and you don't have to buy gasoline to travel to get local supplies. After all that justification, it's also VERY convenient having it arrive at your front door.

If you shoot at local ranges that have organized shoots, you can often find other shooters to place bulk orders with.

Hope this makes sense.

tooltech
September 11, 2011, 01:20 AM
In my local stores, primers are selling for $33-$39 per 1000. If I buy 5000 online at $20/1000, pay haz-mat and shipping, it comes out to $28 per 1000. If I add a jug of powder to the order, it spreads the fee even thinner.

And I don't have to drive 30-45 minutes to get to a store that has them in stock.

Ken70
September 11, 2011, 01:36 AM
Let's see, primers are $15 per thousand cheaper, no sales tax at 8.375%, don't burn $20 in gas getting there and back. For 90% of us, mail order is the way to go.

Then you have the gun show option, $11 to get in, $10 for parking, no joy when all the discount stuff is gone by 2pm on Saturday..... You'll be hard pressed to beat the prices on the net. A big reason why Kali is trying to collect sales tax on all that stuff off the internet.

Last time I ordered hazmat stuff I got 5K primers and 5 pounds of powder from Graf's. So the $25 was spread over a bunch of stuff, saved about $100 buying from them instead of the local yokels.

evan price
September 11, 2011, 04:44 AM
iirc there is a 60# maximum on one haz-mat charge. I typically max out a haz-mat ticket. You can mix powder and primers in one order. 6 cases of primers (30K) and 4 jugs of powder (32#) is a good order. I think i get 70K of primers in one HazMat ticket.

I ordered 255,000 primers in one order and it took 4 haz-mat tickets if that helps.

cfullgraf
September 11, 2011, 10:02 AM
Then you have the gun show option, $11 to get in, $10 for parking, no joy when all the discount stuff is gone by 2pm on Saturday.....



Fortunately, we don't have parking charges but I consider the entry fee as an entertainment expense, not as part of anything that purchase. I enjoy cruising the show and looking at stuff.

me26245
September 11, 2011, 10:42 AM
From the vendors I've purchased supplies from I can order up to 50K of primers on one Hazmat charge or 32 pounds of powder.
The Hazmat charge is determined by the number of boxes shipped with one Hazmat charge per box.
The last couple of orders I placed I had one Hazmat charge for 50K of primers for one source and two Hazmat charges for another 50K of primers from another source, which due to weight made the shipment be two boxes.
In the past one wholesaler would not ship a 25 pound keg of powder which I ended up having to go get.
Many places will let you pick up your order and I've done that if I was in the area or I was traveling by where I ordered it from.

res45
September 11, 2011, 10:55 AM
I always try to support my local gun shops and reloading supplier as much as possible,that wasn't much of a problem when I only lived about 10 mile away and prices were such on powder and primers that it was better than paying the hazmat and shipping ordering online.

That's not the case now,I had to move about an hour and a half away to find work and the only local shop has pretty outrageous prices so much so that I only have to order 3K primers and 2 lbs. of powder from PV to break even. I usually order more than that at one time so I actually save money over what I can buy it locally for. It's a shame but that's just how it is.

higgite
September 11, 2011, 11:41 AM
6# powder and 2000 CCI APS primers (I gotta try them) plus insurance, plus hazmat, plus shipping = $203 from Powder Valley to my doorstep. (No association with PV, just a customer)

Same stuff at my LGS, out the door = $258. It was a no brainer. (I qualify :D)

RustyFN
September 11, 2011, 12:20 PM
iirc there is a 60# maximum on one haz-mat charge. I typically max out a haz-mat ticket. You can mix powder and primers in one order. 6 cases of primers (30K) and 4 jugs of powder (32#) is a good order. I think i get 70K of primers in one HazMat ticket.

I ordered 255,000 primers in one order and it took 4 haz-mat tickets if that helps.

This is what you can order for one hazmat charge,
primers - 70 pounds or 50,000
powder - 48 pounds
powder and primers mixed -48 pounds

lightman
September 11, 2011, 02:15 PM
I order the max amount that they can ship,like rusty posted.Its easier if you get some friends to go in with you.The more you order,the less the fees hurt.In this economy,it just makes sense to shop smart. Lightman

cemjr
September 11, 2011, 04:23 PM
I've enjoyed reading all the responces so far. I wish I could order more at once to reduce the impact of hasmat/shipping charges. I suppose I could have gone with tula vs cci and saved a little 15.50/30.00 and 8# vs 6# of powder. Add in 1k of 45 acp bullets and the total was $404.xx frm pv. Retail around me is out of the question.

oneounceload
September 11, 2011, 10:54 PM
primers are typically sold by the sleeve of 5,000 - buying unbroken sleeves is typically cheaper than by the 1000; buying powder in 8# jugs usually drops the price per pound

AlliedArmory
September 12, 2011, 03:45 AM
Some of the newer powders I wanted to try were out of stock or not carried at my last local gun show. I placed the order online for only 3lbs of powder and 5k primers. After shipping and hazmat, the price was almost identical to buying local. Couple $$s more, but they got delivered to my door.

evan price
September 12, 2011, 06:47 AM
@RustyFN: I was wrong, had to go back to check...Powder Valley shipped 220,000 Wolf primers in various sizes and 1.5k CCI 50-bmg primers (221.5K total order) as 4 hazmat shipments. I did a group buy on another forum for primers in Jan '08 right after the Obama scare started. (Never doing another group buy again...)

Funshooter45
September 12, 2011, 05:00 PM
The break-even point for me has gotten even easier lately than it was a year ago. Even though the availability and selection of powders is much better now than a year ago, for some reason the price on powders has gone UP not down around here.

The way I calculate the minimum order to break even is as follows:

HazMat= $25.

For Hodgdon powder, the local price is $25/lb. Powder Valley cost is $19/lb. Therefore it would take about 4 lb of Hodgdon powder to break even if that's all I ordered.

For Alliant powders (a couple of my rifles are picky about that :) ) the local price is a whopping $29/lb. Powder Valley price is $19/lb. So just 3 lbs on an order means I have SAVED $5.

Primers are about $5/1000 for CCI cheaper there. For Winchester primers it's about $10/1000 cheaper at PV.

The answer is it doesn't take much powder at all to buy from PV. Obviously, it saves more the bigger the order, so I always wait until I am nearing the end of my supply for one particular powder. Buying 20 lbs of powder and 5000 primers for my rifles is nice. My budget doesn't always permit that though.

For pistols, it's not as big a deal for me. I shoot revolvers only so I don't go through the ammo like some folks do. For some calibers I can get 1000 rds out of 1 lb of powder. But even my biggest rounds still yield about 350 rds out of a pound. It's a whole different ballgame for the rifles though where 1 lb of powder only gets you 100 shots.

amlevin
September 13, 2011, 12:42 PM
For some reason the smaller Dealers are pushing away customers for powder, primers, and bullets. Not just putting up a sign that says "Go someowhere else", instead they just post ridiculous prices.

The Big Box stores are a little better but the Online Stores are getting to be the place to go if you need more than a pound of powder or a box of primers.

I order whenever I can fill a 50# order. I stock up on powder and primers to the point where the Hazmat fee is approximately $0.50 per pound of powder or box (1,000) primers.

Most Dealers will use the excuse that "the Hazmat Fee makes everything expensive". I guess that $0.50 per "unit" justifys the extra $10 per box of primers pound of powder.

With the number of Dealers that stock products like this dwindling the cost of chasing down supplies has increased. I now choose to use my laptop to order supplies while drinking my morning cup of coffee. Don't even need to put a key in the ignition. Everything shows up on my doorstep an average of 5 days later.

As for bullets, most of my bullets are shipped "Freight Included". For special bullets I have my powder/primer supplier add them to the box until the max weight is reached for the Hazmat fee or just ship in a separate USPS "Flat Rate" box.

oneounceload
September 13, 2011, 05:31 PM
instead they just post ridiculous prices.


And you base that statement on what? Comparing a price to a warehouse or major wholesaler? They have to pay the same hazmat and freight charges, and you folks want them to stock every brand of powder in 1, 4, and 8# jugs, same for primers - that costs money, and a lot more than if they were only buying one or two types. Powder that someone MIGHT want sometime, sitting on the shelf more than a week is costing the store money - that needs to be recouped

cemjr
September 13, 2011, 06:50 PM
"For some reason the smaller Dealers are pushing away customers for powder, primers, and bullets." I wouldn't call Gander Mnt, MC sports, smaller dealers by any means but as I said before ," retail is out of the question". At $40.00 per 1k for primers and $25.00 per lb. for powder and $25.00+ for a hundred bullets, it wouldn't pay for me to reload! I'm with amlevin, it would seem to me that the large chain stores are buying at wholesale prices and could pass a bit of those savings on to their customers.

Hondo 60
September 15, 2011, 12:54 AM
Oneounceload - And you base that statement on what?


amlevin said it best


I order whenever I can fill a 50# order. I stock up on powder and primers to the point where the Hazmat fee is approximately $0.50 per pound of powder or box (1,000) primers.

Most Dealers will use the excuse that "the Hazmat Fee makes everything expensive". I guess that $0.50 per "unit" justifys the extra $10 per box of primers (or) pound of powder.

I'm sure the retailers can do that too.

I don't mind paying a bit more than Powder Valley prices if I can get it local, but when they charge $31.99 for a pound of AA#5 ... to me that's ridiculous.
And I won't pay it!

evan price
September 15, 2011, 06:46 AM
There's a LGS near me that has Ramshot powders $27 a pound, Varget for $35 a pound, Alliant 4# kegs (Red Dot, Unique, Bullseye, etc) for $119, primers $40 per thousand on average and Hornady 308-165-SST's were $39 a box of a hundred. $15 for an RCBS shell holder. $44 for Lee 3-die pistol sets, $69 for RCBS.

RustyFN
September 15, 2011, 11:57 AM
Here is something that a lot of people might not know. You only pay hazmat if it is shipped Fed-Ex or UPS. If you place a big enough order and have it shipped LTL to a business there is no hazmat charge. I know somebody that does it and it's only one pallet and not even a full pallet. I would be willing to bet PV, Graf's, Wideners, GM and all the other big stores don't pay hazmat.

amlevin
September 16, 2011, 08:39 PM
And you base that statement on what? Comparing a price to a warehouse or major wholesaler? They have to pay the same hazmat and freight charges, and you folks want them to stock every brand of powder in 1, 4, and 8# jugs, same for primers - that costs money, and a lot more than if they were only buying one or two types. Powder that someone MIGHT want sometime, sitting on the shelf more than a week is costing the store money - that needs to be recouped

I'd buy your argument if you were talking about someone stocking only Bench Rest Primers of obscure pistol powders. What about those who by LTL auantities of powders such as Varget and H-4895 in 8# jugs that they can't keep in stock due to sales, and still stick it to the Customer on these items. What about the Dealer you ask for a "Quantity" discount on 40-50 lbs of powder and primers, tell him you'll pay up front, and he can just add it to his next order. His idea of a "discount" is "shelf price" for his store. You'd swear that some people need to get knocked over the head so you can slip the money in their pocket while they lie there unconscious.

oneounceload
September 16, 2011, 09:20 PM
Oneounceload -
Quote:
And you base that statement on what?

amlevin said it best


Quote:
I order whenever I can fill a 50# order. I stock up on powder and primers to the point where the Hazmat fee is approximately $0.50 per pound of powder or box (1,000) primers.

Most Dealers will use the excuse that "the Hazmat Fee makes everything expensive". I guess that $0.50 per "unit" justifys the extra $10 per box of primers (or) pound of powder.
I'm sure the retailers can do that too.

I don't mind paying a bit more than Powder Valley prices if I can get it local, but when they charge $31.99 for a pound of AA#5 ... to me that's ridiculous.
And I won't pay it!

Then don't - but it sure sounds like a lot of folks have NO idea how a small retail business works - again, everyone wants their small LGS to carry this and that - every holster, every primer size and brand, every powder type - and then sell it for cost plus 5% - get real - it isn't happening.

Most gun distributors and maker require upfront costs in the 50K range to get decent pricing - when you can't, the markup isn't there - but they still have rent, utilities, taxes, payroll, etc. - and then they have their own mortgage, food, etc.

Those of you who work for some large company - go ask your HR department what your true overhead to them is - typically 3X your hourly wage, maybe as much as 4-5 - that is what the small guy is trying to cover and still provide you with a product you want


What about the Dealer you ask for a "Quantity" discount on 40-50 lbs of powder and primers, tell him you'll pay up front, and he can just add it to his next order. His idea of a "discount" is "shelf price" for his store.

What's YOUR idea of a quantity discount? Do you know what his costs are that he has to cover?

amlevin
September 20, 2011, 11:37 AM
Those of you who work for some large company - go ask your HR department what your true overhead to them is - typically 3X your hourly wage, maybe as much as 4-5

I don't know what kind of company you are familiar with but I retired from a Corporation that saw over 1.5 Billion in Sales. The "overhead" for each employee was in the range of 30%-50% factoring in benefits, office space, and daily costs associated with their position. A $50k/year employee had an average cost to the Company from $65k - $75k after all the expenses were added up. I saw my "expense" to the company every month as I was a department head and received a copy of the "financials" every month which included everything from "Office Rent" to "copier expense", along with insurance, vacation, and sick leave.

I've also been involved with small business ownership and can tell you any company that sees the kind of "overhead" you describe is either going out of business soon or is a branch of Government.

Walkalong
September 20, 2011, 11:48 AM
I just ordered 5K primers and 2 lbs of powder. That spreads it out enough. I have ordered more than that before, which is better.

I had been buying most of my powder and primers from a guy that does gun shows here, but this last weekend he had gone up again to $33 per 1K of Winchester primers, and even more on some others. I went home and ordered from Powder Valley instead.

oneounceload
September 20, 2011, 09:45 PM
I don't know what kind of company you are familiar with but I retired from a Corporation that saw over 1.5 Billion in Sales. The "overhead" for each employee was in the range of 30%-50% factoring in benefits, office space, and daily costs associated with their position. A $50k/year employee had an average cost to the Company from $65k - $75k after all the expenses were added up. I saw my "expense" to the company every month as I was a department head and received a copy of the "financials" every month which included everything from "Office Rent" to "copier expense", along with insurance, vacation, and sick leave.

And that is cheap -overhead runs anywhere from 50% minimum to 200% - depending on the company

and the little guy, trying to male a living, has costs even higher, especially when he is new, as he is buying COD, has loans, etc

Oh nevermind, everyone think they should be able to buy everything at wholesale with no extra costs

This is not worth the effort to try and educate folks

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