CCW with a Red Dot


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Skribs
September 11, 2011, 01:40 AM
It was brought up in a thread in another section of this forum, questioning the future advancements of firearms, that red dots will replace ironsights entirely. While I personally see the advantage to an RDS over irons, the biggest disadvantage I see is regards to size, and how it would affect carrying.

With that said, does anyone carry a handgun with a red dot? I would think the extra inch or so of height would be problematic, but I could see the advantage if you have to use the gun with an RDS over irons - easier to "line up" the shot if there's only 1 dot instead of 3.

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ColtPythonElite
September 11, 2011, 01:51 AM
Red dots won't ever replace sights on my carry guns.

Telekinesis
September 11, 2011, 01:59 AM
The only holsters that I know of that will allow a red dot on a gun are holsters specifically designed for shooting sports. I have yet to see a holster designed for CCW that will work with a red dot on a pistol.

Also, how many soldiers/LEOs/Contractors have guns with ONLY red dots/optics on them? 99% of the ones I've seen have a set of back up irons. While red dots are nice and easier to use than irons, they still fail. It is very hard to make an iron sight fail, and that usually involves a hammer. I don't think red dots will ever fully replace irons on combat guns.

Ducman69
September 11, 2011, 02:12 AM
They are very nice, but I'm not an LEO or work in Iraq to where the probability of needing to use a pistol in the first place is high, so I lean heavily towards the light/compact over performance side (hence my choice of Kahr PM9) and wouldn't remotely consider the extra bulk of a RD.

Sam Cade
September 11, 2011, 02:33 AM
I don't think red dots will ever fully replace irons on combat guns.

Already happened, sorta.

The standard G36 has no iron sights.

The AUG rifle in its classic configuration doesn't have much in the way of irons just a whale legs vestigial notch and blade on the 'scope. The A2 and A3 variants have a rail but it doesn't look like military end users (or the Australians with their current F88 clone) commonly use BUIS.

David E
September 11, 2011, 02:35 AM
I carried an Optima sighted G-22-C concealed in an IWB holster and it was no problem at all. The "extra bulk" wasn't noticeable one bit.

The only downside I saw was that the lens got dusty, but that's of little consequence, really.

I have a V-10 that cries for this sight and I will give into that call soon.

Yes, they'll eventually replace, or at least, work with iron sights.

Sam Cade
September 11, 2011, 02:39 AM
I have yet to see a holster designed for CCW that will work with a red dot on a pistol.

Here you go.


What do I win?

Sgt_R
September 11, 2011, 03:20 PM
I have yet to see a holster designed for CCW that will work with a red dot on a pistol.

And another one. (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/archangelappendixcarryaiwbappendixinsidethewaistband-1.aspx) I personally don't own one, but I know a guy who swears by it.

R

Girodin
September 11, 2011, 03:25 PM
The only holsters that I know of that will allow a red dot on a gun are holsters specifically designed for shooting sports

With the very small RDS available today there are all kinds of holsters that will work, many of the same ones that would be my choice with or without the RDS, like the RCS pictured above.

With a milled slide there is very little in terms of "bulk" or weight added. It is also possible to retain irons. I'm curious of those commenting how many have even used such a set up?

Loosedhorse
September 11, 2011, 03:45 PM
I would worry about fragility.

It's hard to beat fixed iron sights for SD. I have no problem also mounting lasers (like Crimson Trace) on such guns: if the laser fails, I still have the sights.

If the red dot fails, what have you got for back-up? (Besides your other gun, I mean! ;))

Sam Cade
September 11, 2011, 04:19 PM
If the red dot fails, what have you got for back-up?

You just use it like a huge ghost ring.


This works pretty well (at close range) on an AR with a dead EoTech too.

gbran
September 11, 2011, 04:33 PM
I have several red dots and find them very useful, but I'd never use one for ccw. BTW, all my holsters had to be modified. Those hard plastic (Kydex?) are easiest to modify.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/gbran/Hunters.jpg

David E
September 11, 2011, 05:27 PM
I would worry about fragility.

If the red dot fails, what have you got for back-up? (Besides your other gun, I mean! ;))

You can set them up so your iron sights are also useable thru the dot window.

Loosedhorse
September 11, 2011, 05:37 PM
You just use it like a huge ghost ring.I would worry about that changing the point of impact WAY up the way most red dots are mounted.You can set them up so your iron sights are also useable thru the dot window. Thanks. Didn't know that, and have never seen it. All the ones I've seen have been like those on gbran's post, where the red dot prevents iron sight use.

I guess maybe the Optimas allow that? Do they also shift the point of impact up?

Sam Cade
September 11, 2011, 06:27 PM
I would worry about that changing the point of impact WAY up the way most red dots are mounted.Thanks. Didn't know that, and have never seen it. All the ones I've seen have been like those on gbran's post, where the red dot prevents iron sight use.

Observe.

These are lifted from the Bowie Tactical website.

kozak6
September 11, 2011, 06:51 PM
I think optics are more useful on a long arm with a range of hundreds of meters than on a pistol with a range of tens of meters.

I think the biggest issue with integrating optics into pistols is price. It seems like most quality optics cost almost as much as a pistol does.

Sam Cade
September 11, 2011, 07:20 PM
I think optics are more useful on a long arm with a range of hundreds of meters than on a pistol with a range of tens of meters.
Long range optics would be a completely different discussion


It would be hard to quantity the level of benefit derived from a red dot any way other than actually shooting it under timed and scored conditions.
Luckily, folks do that :D
Dots are better.

The red dot sight is possibly the greatest innovation in pistol shooting since 1911. This gadget offers a level of precision and a simplicity of operation that does not exist with iron sights.
...and that is from a Bullseye shooter, that bunch of eternal curmudgeons.:D
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm




Can you think of a situation involving the active use of a CCWed handgun which a set of iron sights would be superior to a RDS like a RMR?



I think the biggest issue with integrating optics into pistols is price. It seems like most quality optics cost almost as much as a pistol does.

Indeed. Figure $200 for the slide cut plus price of the optic.

Right now FN is the only company that offers an OEM slide mount for a RDS but expect it to become as common as a rail on the frame.

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF062&gid=FNG001&mid=FNM0173

Skribs
September 11, 2011, 08:08 PM
Right now FN is the only company that offers an OEM slide mount for a RDS but expect it to become as common as a rail on the frame.

That's actually one reason I'm leaning toward that FN as my next handgun...not necessarily to carry, but for HD. Of course, there's a lot I want, so we'll see :P.

On that note, what would happen if they integrated a top rail into the slide?

Sam Cade
September 11, 2011, 09:10 PM
That's actually one reason I'm leaning toward that FN as my next handgun...not necessarily to carry, but for HD. Of course, there's a lot I want, so we'll see :P.

I feel your pain.

I had a XD subcompact milled for a Doctor, then I foolishly sold it with the intent to replace it with a butt-chopped service model. 8 months later, still no replacement since I keep finding "deals" and depleting my discretionary fund.



On that note, what would happen if they integrated a top rail into the slide?

You want the RDS to be as low as possible so milling the slide to match a flat base will probably be better than a 1913 rail. You also want the entire assemblage to be as light as possible so as not to upset the function of the pistol....I think a J-point is well under an ounce.

Sgt_R
September 12, 2011, 01:48 PM
Observe.

These are lifted from the Bowie Tactical website.

Suarez does something very similar with his TSD Glock (http://www.onesourcetactical.com/advancedcombatglockslidemodificationsoncustomersslide.aspx) (no, I'm not drinking the WarriorTalk kool-aid, just pointing out another option). Factory sights are too low, so what Bowie & Suarez do is mount taller 'suppressor' sights to co-witness with the red dot.

I think the biggest issue with integrating optics into pistols is price. It seems like most quality optics cost almost as much as a pistol does.

Nothing new here. Quality rifle optics often cost nearly as much as the rifle they're mounted on.

I would worry about fragility.

I think the major manufacturers have proven themselves at this point (Trijicon, Aimpoint, etc). I would be concerned about the durability of a lesser, 'knock-off' brand, but the same could be said of any product category.

I'm curious of those commenting how many have even used such a set up?

Not yet, but it's on my 'to-do' list.

R

JohnBiltz
September 12, 2011, 07:59 PM
I've shot a .22 handgun with one mounted. Just 10 rounds, a guy had one at the range where I was shooting and asked if I wanted to put a magazine through it. It was pretty nice and the competition guys are not using them because they are slow. Very old eyes friendly. Red dots have taken over the carbine market. I don't see them giving it back and to tell the truth if I bought another carbine I don't think I'd worry about another set of BUIS for it.

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