Rifle bullet-pistol cartridge: Am I nuts??


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The Rabbi
January 25, 2004, 06:37 PM
As a newly minted reloader of course I have some wild ideas. The latest is to see what I can do to improve the .25acp. I know we have had a thread on reloading that cartridge. I wondered about the efficacy of using .25cal rifle bullets, like 75grains, on the pistol cartridge. I would imagine *someone* has played around with this already but am looking for ideas. Thanks.

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Jim Watson
January 25, 2004, 06:57 PM
Barrel and bullet dimensions are not the same.
.25 ACP is .251", .25 rifles are typically .258"
I think that too much difference to handle in the reloading.

Paul "Fitz" Jones
January 25, 2004, 08:57 PM
As a retired Police and civilian rangemaster I have hundreds of .25 auto brass in my lifetime collection of old and new, civilian and military brass.

Have something unusual? I may have some brass and ammo for it to clean out of my shop.

When I was young it was common for gunsmiths to make a die and punch to size down a larger bullet. Those were the "Make Do Days" and the punch pounded the bullet through. A friend had a hydraulic outfit to swage down cases and bullets also.

Fitz

Johnny Guest
January 26, 2004, 10:41 AM
I've done some of this, mainly just for fun and variations - -

Most recently, Elder Son and I loaded some Hornady 158 and 180 gr. .357 revolver bullets into .35 Whelen cases, to have some short range (and relatively inexpensive) small game and plinking ammo for his rifle. Shoots pretty well with a reduced load of IMR 4895 powder, but we really haven't experimented much with the concept.

I'm looking forward to (someday) obtaining an old Lyman 200 gr mould, mainly for use with .357 loads. I'm sure, though, that some will find their way into Whelen cases, especially since I recently acquired such a rifle of my own.

I've heard of people using Speer 100 gr "Plinker" bullets in .32 S&W long cases. I've always wondered how well this .308" bullet functioned in .311 -- .312" bores.

Elmer Keith wrote of using cast 300 to 405 gr. .45-55 and .45-70 bullets, sized down to .454, for use in pre-WWII .45 Colts. That, of course, was before it was customary to load 300+ gr bullets in revolvers.

I've also heard of using .351 Win and .35 Win bullets in .357 Magnum for hunting big game - - These heavier, and very strongly constructed bullets would supposedly penetrate deeper than the standard revolver bullets when loaded hot. Again, this was in the days before the super strong silhouette match bullets, in heavy weights, were readily available.

Guns & Ammo magazine staff used JSP .38-40 bullets in developing a wildcat cartridge for a Browning High Power - - It was written up sometime in the 1970 or early '80s, as I recall. This was soon made moot by introduction of the .40 S&W ctg.

Yessir, there's been quite a bit of crossover loading through the years, and I imagine we haven't seen the last of it. :D

Let your imagination run wild, but, please, be careful and don't hurt yourself or anyone else.


Best,
Johnny

Archie
January 26, 2004, 01:00 PM
is case capacity.

Does the .25 ACP case have the room to load enough powder to propel a 70 grain bullet? Enough to do anything, anyway?

Can you seat a 70 grain bullet in the case and have it fit in the magazine?

For what it's worth: I did try some 150 grain .30 caliber bullets in a .32-20 case. I was playing with a poor man's .300 Whisper concept. I found that heavy bullets in a small case get real sensitive to powder charge. That is, pressures go up quick with small charge differences. So be careful.

What kind of pistol you planning on using? Several years ago I heard rumors about a "locked breech" .25 ACP that would deliver a lot more velocity than the standard blowback type action. Perhaps one of the small 9x19 pistols, converted to .25 ACP with a fully supported chamber would make some impressive velocities?

The Rabbi
January 26, 2004, 05:57 PM
Well, just to lay it out, I have a Colt 1908 N in .25acp that is just adorable and wonderful fun to shoot. Combine that with 1) my general love for guns from the 1920s or so; 2) the fact that no one wants one means it must have something going for it; and 3) an article I saw on cartridges that needed to be thrown out spoke very unflatteringly about the little .25. So I thought there must be some way to make it effective for something. I notice that Aguila is having trouble keeping its sniper round .22LR in stock. Maybe a similar heavy "sub-sonic" bullet might do wonders for the rep of the .25. I dunno. thats why I post here.

John Galt
January 27, 2004, 02:23 AM
That's easy. Just get a replacement barrel for 10cal chambered for the 10-Pup and load up some really cool rounds like these:

http://is-lan.com/Pics/10cal-Wildcats.jpg

Should be a very effective round on tree squirrels if you can hit them and for that big game animal, the rat.

Paul "Fitz" Jones
January 27, 2004, 09:04 PM
One of the best places to find rats to shoot was the old style dumps and junk yards with piles and piles of stuff. The use of a night vison scope could extend your shooting hours.

Fitz

bigjim
January 27, 2004, 10:56 PM
HEY! John Galt

Now those are the coolest things I have ever seen....

SPECS!! SPECS!!

John Galt
January 28, 2004, 12:01 AM
What's a CCM?

I went to www.loadingbench.com and read what he had to say about the 25acp. I guess it's good for throwing at people or for "displaying" to scare them off. I've heard of someone taking an entire magazine from one and not being seriously hurt.

For small caliber, I'd consider the "20 tactical" before most others. I guess the new Ruger 204 is a copy of it. It would be more commercially viable if Ruger would have used the 20 tactical name. Cartridges named after gun companies face reluctance from all the others. That's the wisdom behind the Horady HMR-17. And guess what, it worked!

I doubt there are any actual specs on these 10 cal.
I may have gotten the picture from here: http://www.saubier.com/
They have a good article on the bottom of the page on all the 20 cal cartridges and a link on the left side of the main page.

Another cool source is: http://www.smallcaliber.com/
See their "back issues" link and articles there online about the 14cal.

cookhj
January 28, 2004, 12:25 AM
why not just get a 7.62x25 and load it with .223 round in a .30 sabot. you could even load M855 green tips.....but wait....wouldn't that make them....."cop killers?"

Paul "Fitz" Jones
January 28, 2004, 12:51 AM
My buddy responded to a burglary at a pharmacy. The fellow pulled a gun and my buddy had just given up his 45 auto over my objections for a new 9mm and he emptied hus magazine into the burglar. The burglar fired one shot that went between two ribs and circled around inside the lung and ruined the heart.
My buddy died and the burglar lived. As the department weapons instructor I cried and nobody convinced me to give up my Gold Cup for a newer higher capacity rounds weapon.

Paul Jones 1976

The Rabbi
January 28, 2004, 09:38 AM
Sorry about your buddy. That has to feel terrible.
We had a similar story here in Nashville where a cop ended up in a shootout with a BG armed with a .25 Raven loaded with Cor-bons (basically the ammo cost as much as the gun). The officer emptied about 4 shots from his .40 cal Glock into the guy and received one shot back that went through his ribs, his lung and punctured his heart, killing him at the scene. The BG went off and was only caught because his relatives were worried about him and gave him up to police, several days later.

I inquired in another thread about real life sits and what becomes apparant after seeing a few stories is that calibre, ammo, type of weapon, capacity and so are no guarantee of results one way or another.

Remi308
January 30, 2004, 11:36 PM
Two words......."Shot placement".

Paul "Fitz" Jones
January 31, 2004, 01:04 AM
I would suggest a 9mm bullet of mine a 135gr Grain flat nose SWC loaded in a American GI 38 Special Case or .357 case of soft lead that can upset at high velocity in a .357 Mag pistol or .357 mag Rifle something I did years ago when I first got the molds from Saeco. I used a Star undersize .38 expander to do the trick in my Star loader. With tire weights and the Saeco Green lube they were hard hitters and shot and fed fine in my 1892 winchesters. Check out my threads as I have posted it in another thread today.

Fitz

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