Same ammo, different guns, different size holes .22


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Cornhusker77
September 12, 2011, 12:30 AM
Just like the title says, I used the same ammo, out of the same box and I get 2 different size holes in a paper plate.
The larger holes are a Bersa Thunder .22 that I just bought, and the smaller holes are a Walther P22 that I've had for a couple years.
Shooting Aguila 30gr copper plated hollow point "Hyper Velocity" .22 ammo from 25 ft.
Anybody know why I'm getting different size holes?
Thanks.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l22/cornhusker_2006/Toys/GEDC1213.jpg

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l22/cornhusker_2006/Toys/GEDC1214.jpg

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JohnBT
September 12, 2011, 09:47 AM
I've been shooting .22s since the mid-50s and I've never seen anything like that. :confused:

Remllez
September 12, 2011, 09:56 AM
Your buddy in the lane next to you shot your plate with .38 wadcutters.

hardluk1
September 12, 2011, 10:06 AM
Thats what I was thinking too. Put a mic or even a good ruler and take a photo. Bet the big wholes measure atlest .32.

Hoppe
September 12, 2011, 10:21 AM
yea that a very clean hole for a 22 I agree wadcutter

Tallinar
September 12, 2011, 10:35 AM
No chance that the larger holes came from a .22 caliber bullet. Those holes are almost unmistakeably from .38 semi or full wadcutters.

Cornhusker77
September 12, 2011, 10:36 AM
Let me add another wrinkle:
I don't go to a range, I shoot by myself with nobody else around.
Just for a size comparison, a 9mm is a little bigger than the hole.
I had my Bersa and Walther out in the yard shooting yesterday and noticed the Bersa was making bigger holes.
After work I'm going to try some different ammo and see if the same thing happens.
It's just weird that the holes are so round and neat.
Tells me the bullets are expanding when they leave the gun.
The bore seems a little tight when I run a cleaning patch in it, could that have something to do with it?

Maple_City_Woodsman
September 12, 2011, 11:35 AM
I don't think there is any chance of any of that ever happening.

I think that either someone is playing a joke on you, or that you are trying to play a joke on us.

Cornhusker77
September 12, 2011, 11:54 AM
Not a joke, I'm not that guy.
I probably wouldn't believe it either though.
Just thought I'd see if anybody else had experienced anything like this.

Rail Driver
September 12, 2011, 12:21 PM
Couple things that could be going on here... If the barrel on the bersa is longer by enough, maybe you're getting just enough velocity to get a clean hole instead of the normal "ragged" hole. Maybe your Bersa is a .380 and not a .22 as you suspect, though that wouldn't explain the sharpness of the holes, only the size, and confusing .22LR for .380ACP is tough to do for the worst of us.

Really, I don't buy the statement that you don't know what's going on. I've never seen a .22LR make a bigger hole than it's supposed to unless it had already passed through something that deformed the bullet, and those holes aren't clean like yours.

It looks to me like you shot the plate with .38 wadcutters or just attacked the target with a hole punch.

Either way, most people are generally not stupid and pulling a prank that is so obvious isn't going to fly.

All that being said, if someone can explain and duplicate this "phenomenon" and prove that the OP hasn't just tried to pull a prank (I think I saw something similar a few months ago) then I'd love to know how it's done. Who wouldn't want .30cal + holes to result from firing their .22? Can we say new defensive round?! :banghead:

Hoppe
September 12, 2011, 12:39 PM
Approx the size of 9mm = approx size of 38 no way a 22 made that hole.

Cornhusker77
September 12, 2011, 12:54 PM
I think it's something to do with the ammo.
Here's the same gun using Winchester bulk stuff.
It is in a different type of target, but the holes seem normal.
When I get home this afternoon, I'll do some experimenting
I know a lot of people aren't believing me, and I wouldn't either, but I do appreciate the comments.
http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l22/cornhusker_2006/Toys/GEDC1198.jpg

Carl Levitian
September 12, 2011, 01:09 PM
Very lame attempt at pulling someones leg!

Carl.

Cornhusker77
September 12, 2011, 01:15 PM
Very lame attempt at pulling someones leg!

Carl.
That seems to be the general concensus:confused:

rcmodel
September 12, 2011, 01:25 PM
Lets give Cornhusker77 the benefit of the doubt, shall we.
I see no evidence of him being a flake in any of his previous posts over the last three years!

Now, lets try to figure it out.
I have on occasion seen very short barrels actually upset the base of the bullet when it exits the muzzle.
Had a .45 Colt doing it right out of the cylinder when I shot it with the barrel removed.
It was cutting over 1/2" holes in paper clean as a whistle!

It could happen with high performance .22RF ammo if the bullets were soft and had a hollow base.

That could explain what is cutting the holes bigger & cleaner.
Not sure why the 3.5" Bersa would and the 3.4" P22 wouldn't though.
Possibly a difference in the shape or design of the barrel crowns?

I'd suggest you dig some bullets out of the dirt behind the target and see if they look like the base is mushroomed & curled over slightly, enough to be cutting those clean larger holes.

rc

Cornhusker77
September 12, 2011, 01:29 PM
I'm at work now, but when I get home I think I'll load the mag with alternate rounds, Winchester and Aguila and see if I get different size holes.
Maybe I can get it on film.

Cornhusker77
September 12, 2011, 01:31 PM
I'm starting to feel like the guy who saw a UFO:)

Cornhusker77
September 12, 2011, 01:38 PM
I'm not crazy after all :D
I did a search on that Aguila ammo and found quite a few people experienceing the same thing
https://forums.cabelas.com/showthread.php?t=2303

rcmodel
September 12, 2011, 01:59 PM
Be sure you read post #15 above.

That's pretty much what I said might be happening.

rc

ForumSurfer
September 12, 2011, 02:05 PM
I'm not crazy after all :D
I did a search on that Aguila ammo and found quite a few people experienceing the same thing
https://forums.cabelas.com/showthread.php?t=2303

Very interesting phenomenon.

Now I just won't be happy until I go out and buy some aguila hyper velocity rounds and try that in my rifles and pistols just to see what happens.

Cornhusker77
September 12, 2011, 02:15 PM
I think you had it right rcmodel.:D
Now the question becomes: Why did it do it with the Bersa but not the Walther?
Maybe the unusually tight bore on the Bersa played a role?

rcmodel
September 12, 2011, 02:22 PM
From edited post #15.Possibly a difference in the shape or design of the barrel crowns?

One crown might be bleeding off gas pressure away from the base of the bullet more then the other one when the bullet exits the muzzle.

Check and see if the Bersa crown is different shape then the Walther.

rc

hardluk1
September 12, 2011, 06:20 PM
Those must be some super soft lead 22 bullets and after fireing they turned into a 38 sized bullet.

Double Naught Spy
September 12, 2011, 06:39 PM
Okay, now the big question if if they will make a .38 or .32 hole in flesh and how much penetration they will get in doing so, LOL.

David E
September 12, 2011, 08:08 PM
RC hit upon what I was thinking as far as bullet base deformation.

Barrel crown might be a contributor, but so could a tighter bore.

Maybe slug the bores to see.

Have a chrono?

Cornhusker77
September 12, 2011, 09:36 PM
Nope, no chrono
I tried to catch one in a water jug, but............
I need to round up some jugs I guess.

Cornhusker77
September 13, 2011, 12:37 AM
I set up the video camera on a tripod and loaded the mag with alternating Winchester and Aguila rounds.
Don't make fun of my shooting, I was paying more attention to the holes than my sights. At least that's my excuse :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AVYKo8WT0g

Maple_City_Woodsman
September 13, 2011, 12:56 AM
Even if the bullets were upset after exiting the barrel... Am I expected to believe that the base of a tumbling bullet is making clean cookie-cutter holes, of a diameter which is larger than the bore, with never a sign of tumbling?

Cornhusker - Can you indulge us, and upload a second video? Perhaps one where we can see the guns you are shooting?

Geckgo
September 13, 2011, 02:06 AM
When this is all over I have a feeling that some posters will be eating hats.

pockets
September 13, 2011, 09:13 AM
Many people have experienced this with 'Aquila Super Maximum' .22LR cartridges.
I didn't believe it either, so I bought some boxes a couple of years ago and tried it myself from various pocket pistols.
It is very very weird, but it does happen. The resultant holes I got looked just like the ones in the OP's target photo.
YMMV though.
.

hardluk1
September 13, 2011, 12:42 PM
I tried some aguila Sm also a couple years ago and they pinted just like other .22 for me. I think i have tried most 22 ammo over the last couple years and seen some cut paper better than others but never larger or smaller by more than a couple thousands.

rcmodel
September 13, 2011, 01:32 PM
Am I expected to believe that the base of a tumbling bullet is making clean cookie-cutter holes,Yes, you are expected to believe it.

There is no reason the bullets would be tumbling just because the hollow base expanded.

Think of it as a tiny little badminton shuttlecock.
The expanded base creating drag on the rear end & rifling spin keeps it flying point first.

rc

Tallinar
September 13, 2011, 02:08 PM
Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. Very interesting.

Thanks rc for your investigative thinking.

SN13
September 13, 2011, 02:48 PM
Yes, you are expected to believe it.

There is no reason the bullets would be tumbling just because the hollow base expanded.

Think of it as a tiny little badminton shuttlecock.
The expanded base creating drag on the rear end & rifling spin keeps it flying point first.

This is what makes a "Rifled" slug fly straight. light-airy butt-end. (Not the rifled fins)

788Ham
September 13, 2011, 03:09 PM
Hmmmm, flavor of Kool-Aid?

intercooler
September 14, 2011, 10:19 AM
Tumbling is the only reason I can give. They are keyholing.

Have you tried cleaning the crap out of the guns barrel? De-lead, etc...?

Double Naught Spy
September 14, 2011, 11:01 AM
Tumbling is the only reason I can give. They are keyholing.

I am looking at the picture in the OP. I don't see a single keyhole there.

Cornhusker77
September 14, 2011, 03:03 PM
They aren't keyholing, they are cutting perfectly round holes
Apparently, I'm not the only one who has experienced this with this particular ammo.

ForumSurfer
September 14, 2011, 03:07 PM
Apparently, I'm not the only one who has experienced this with this particular ammo.I fully intend to search my local stores this weekend while I'm out and about to pick some up. I'll most certainly try it in a couple of rifles, my 22 pistol and my 22 revolver. None are as short barreled as yours, but I'm curious to see if I get the same results.

Edit:: And I'll make sure my 38 and some appropriate ammo are lying next to the target so that the conspiracy theorists can speculate away. :neener:

gunsablazin
September 14, 2011, 03:26 PM
I would have to be there to see this for myself. I say the OP is IQ testing us!

usp9
September 14, 2011, 03:48 PM
I did a search on that Aguila ammo and found quite a few people experienceing the same thing

Same ammo, different gun, same result. I even had other people shoot just to make sure I wasn't crazy. I think I posted about this a few years ago.

Here it is;
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=186676&highlight=wadcutter

Cornhusker77
September 14, 2011, 03:55 PM
I fully intend to search my local stores this weekend while I'm out and about to pick some up. I'll most certainly try it in a couple of rifles, my 22 pistol and my 22 revolver. None are as short barreled as yours, but I'm curious to see if I get the same results.

Edit:: And I'll make sure my 38 and some appropriate ammo are lying next to the target so that the conspiracy theorists can speculate away. :neener:
I don't know that barrel length is the whole thing, My Walther P22 didn't do it.
But then the Walther doesn't have as tight of a bore.

Cornhusker77
September 14, 2011, 04:06 PM
Same ammo, different gun, same result. I even had other people shoot just to make sure I wasn't crazy. I think I posted about this a few years ago.

Here it is;
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=186676&highlight=wadcutter
I read your post...you had some skeptics too it would seem :)

TennJed
September 14, 2011, 04:44 PM
Conhusker I am glad to see you proved yourself. A lot of poster were questioning your honestly and you took the high road and agreed that it was a strange thing. A lot of people would have gone a different route and turned this thread into something like a playground name calling.

Impressed with the way you handled the accusations and am hapy to see you proving your honesty!

Cornhusker77
September 14, 2011, 04:53 PM
Conhusker I am glad to see you proved yourself. A lot of poster were questioning your honestly and you took the high road and agreed that it was a strange thing. A lot of people would have gone a different route and turned this thread into something like a playground name calling.

Impressed with the way you handled the accusations and am hapy to see you proving your honesty!
Thanks
In their shoes, I would have had my doubts too;)

ForumSurfer
September 14, 2011, 04:55 PM
I don't know that barrel length is the whole thing, My Walther P22 didn't do it.
But then the Walther doesn't have as tight of a bore.

Well in that case it should be interesting. My buckmark has a tighter bore than my old worn out high point sentinel revolver.

Cornhusker77
September 14, 2011, 04:58 PM
Well in that case it should be interesting. My buckmark has a tighter bore than my old worn out high point sentinel revolver.
I'm kinda anxious for the weather to straighten up a little so I can try them in a few different guns.
I have about 400 rounds of those left I think

ForumSurfer
September 14, 2011, 05:02 PM
I'm kinda anxious for the weather to straighten up a little so I can try them in a few different guns.
I have about 400 rounds of those left I think

Beautiful blue skies over here...ship 'em on over and I'll let you know how it goes. :neener:

T Bran
September 14, 2011, 05:09 PM
I have an entire brick of those and will try it in all 6 of my .22s if one will do the same I cant wait to try it on small game.
T

ForumSurfer
September 14, 2011, 05:38 PM
if one will do the same I cant wait to try it on small game.

I may try to catch one in a water jug. I've never tried that, anyway. This seems like a good excuse to try.

I have a feeling that the base is expanding as others are saying, and that it will be highly delicate. I'm thinking that anything more dense than that plate will cause the expanded rear section to totally disintegrate.

Pyro
September 14, 2011, 07:57 PM
Looks like it's keyholing to me.

Double Naught Spy
September 15, 2011, 12:14 AM
How are virtually perfectly round holes keyholes? The only way you get such a round hole with a keyholing round is to be shooting actual round ball ammo.

Please point out which holes in the OP are keyholed.

dullone
September 15, 2011, 10:03 AM
I experience the exact same thing with Aquila hypervelocity. But it only happens when I shoot it out of my Firestorm (Bersa) .22. Any other .22 handgun or rifle and the holes are normal. Out of the Firestorm, every shot is perfectly round, cleanly cut and and the relative size shown in the op.
I'm still looking for the reason.

usp9
September 15, 2011, 05:03 PM
I'm still looking for the reason.

I'm beginning to think it has something to do with Area 51, aliens and DARPA. :scrutiny:



At least that's more exciting than soft lead at high speed from a short barrel.:D

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