Latest Wheel Gun Model 19-2


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rikman
September 13, 2011, 11:41 PM
Just traded one of my older Model 15's for this beauty ....a Model 19-2. There is no wear at all and looks anib ...

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rikman
September 13, 2011, 11:46 PM
Anyone know the DOB of this 19-2? I found an article on the net that says to avoid the 125gr 357's, because of the possibility of cracking the forcing cone?
Any thoughts on this?

Thanks

Owen Sparks
September 13, 2011, 11:55 PM
Evidently S&W had enough Model 19's returned to the factory because of this problem that they quit making this model.

roaddog28
September 14, 2011, 12:03 AM
Hi,
Congrats, and yours looks like mine. The serial number will in inside the crane when you open the cylinder. Its right by the model number. Also the serial number is on the bottom of the grip frame. Your serial number will start with a K. The range on 19-2 is from the early sixties to mid sixties. I would not shoot the 125 gr high velocity 357 magnums. Stay with either 38 specials or 142 to 158 gr 357 magnum ammo.
Good luck,
Howard
My 19-2 4 inch
http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu283/HPitt74985/DSC00070.jpg

rikman
September 14, 2011, 12:07 AM
Thanks Howard,

You're right they look in the same shape...beautiful wheel guns. My serial number is K623XXX. My LGS guy guessed 1969?

Rikman

Fishslayer
September 14, 2011, 05:22 AM
Anyone know the DOB of this 19-2? I found an article on the net that says to avoid the 125gr 357's, because of the possibility of cracking the forcing cone?
Any thoughts on this?



The forcing cone issues arose when handloaders started going after hyper velocities with slow powder & 110gr & 125gr bullets. The shorter bullets would clear the CB gap while the powder was still making pressure. This could erode the forcing cone and cause the cracking at the weakest part, the flat spot at 6 o'clock.

It was not a common occurance. Run 158gr Magnums & you should be fine. Better yet, shoot lots of .38 Special and some occasional Big Dogs.


You're right they look in the same shape...beautiful wheel guns. My serial number is K623XXX. My LGS guy guessed 1969?



Standard Catalog of S&W puts that at 1965. IMO the 50's & 60's were the Golden Age of S&W revolvers. After that the bean counters started suggesting changes...

LGS guy might have been looking at the stocks. Those are '69 or later. See the diamond around the screw on Road dog's gun? That diamond went away in '68. The large Diamond Target stocks are collectable in their own right & can bring up to $200 depending on condition.


Evidently S&W had enough Model 19's returned to the factory because of this problem that they quit making this model.


Don't know where you heard that. The M19 ran until 1999 & the M66 (stainless version) til 2005. If those issues were common enough (which they weren't) they would have quit making 'em well before then. Plus the forcing cone issues were caused by running ammo way beyond what the gun was designed for.

CajunBass
September 14, 2011, 06:13 AM
Don't know where you heard that.

He probably heard it on the internet, that great repository of all knowledge. Right or wrong.

Smith & Wesson quit making them because the bottom fell out of the revolver market, and especially the blued revolver market. Everyone was jumping on the stainless steel, and a few years later the wuntdernine bandwagon. And it didn't take long.

Nobody (me included) wanted a revolver then. Every gun magazine you picked up had a 1911 or some new plastic 9mm (and that hasn't changed). I traded my 19, the first handgun I bought for a 1911 Colt. The Colt wasn't a bad gun. As a matter of fact it was a darn good gun. But I wish I had that Model 19 back. :) I got one. But it's not my first one.

This one is a 19-4

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b292/CajunBass/handguns/006.jpg

I admit that I don't shoot my K-frame .357's with magnum loads often. I'm lazy, I don't like recoil, and I've got a bunch of 38 brass for reloading. But I wouldn't worry about shooting them. I'd like to have the chance to shoot one enough to worry about it.

sixgunner455
September 14, 2011, 11:17 AM
I don't have a 19. I have a 13. But I don't worry over much about shooting .357 in it.

I have shot a few model 19s. And I'm probably going to get one someday. Love them.

MagnumDweeb
September 14, 2011, 06:34 PM
I have some. They are simplicity refined into beauty. Smoothe trigger and great handling with Blazer Brass .357 magnum 158 Grain JHPs at twenty yards. When I hold my 19-4 6" (that's the only one not mint like the others) up to my Ruger GP100 6" half lug though it just feels dainty. I'll admit I don't want to shoot it because it is such a great gun and so the Catch-22, to own but not to use. My Ruger GP100 though is like the red-head step child of my guns. It sees everything hot from Buffalo Bore and Doubletap, and it still works great. I wish I could be happy with my 19-4 6" pushing a 158 grain JHP at 1250 fps but I just want that 158 grain 1400 fps, and 125 grain 1500fps, goodness. Oh well in twenty years I might manage to sell them so the kids I'll have some day can have some money for college tuition and some collector can enjoy them.

rikman
September 15, 2011, 02:05 AM
Fishslayer,

Thanks a bunch for the info! I didn't notice the little things like the diamond on the grips! I reload, but nice soft shooting 38spl wad cutters. I've been buying some factory 357's for my GP 100 & S&W 627PC I picked up....it's fun to shoot a few big dogs now and then...outside.

I kinda hated trading my 1955 model 15 5 screw, but I wanted to snag this beauty!

Rikman

Fishslayer
September 15, 2011, 02:41 PM
I've been buying some factory 357's for my GP 100 & S&W 627PC I picked up....it's fun to shoot a few big dogs now and then...outside.



There ya go. Either the GP100 or the S&W 586/686 will gobble up all the Big Dogs you care to feed 'em. A friend has the 627. Pretty nice.

I run some moderate magnums through the M66 from time to time but run mostly .38. Magnums are what the 686 is for.;)

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn215/THE_Fishslayer/OSR/NewYorkreload.jpg

rikman
September 15, 2011, 02:49 PM
When you say moderate magnums, what grain are you talking about? 158's?

I'm thinking about a 41 mag, missed one on gun broker model 57. I know that's a reloading caliber for sure, factory ammo is crazy high!

Fishslayer
September 15, 2011, 02:53 PM
When you say moderate magnums, what grain are you talking about? 158's?



13.6gr 2400 under a 158gr Nosler SJHP or Horny XTP HP. It's fairly stout but well under published maximums.

I've also run this load with X-Treme plated SWC with decent results, but I believe it exceeds what the manufacturer call for & I would hesitate to recommend it. You have to be VERY careful with your roll crimp or you'll cut through the plating.

rcmodel
September 15, 2011, 03:00 PM
when handloaders started going after hyper velocities with slow powder & 110gr & 125gr bullets. Actually, handloaders had nothing at all to do with it.
But Lee Jurras & his SuperVel Ammo Company did.

There were no commercial 110 & 125 grain JHP bullets sold for handloading at that time.

Once Lee Jurras let the cat out of the bag with light JHP bullets at crazy velocity, a lot ammo companys & police departements jumped on the band wagon.

Back then, the cops shot a lot of M-19 revolvers.
With lightly loaded lead bullet .38 Spl for practice, and SuperVel & other 125 grain Mags for duty.
Without cleaning the leaded forcing cones and .38 Spl powder fouled chambers first.

That did result in higher pressure, gas cut top straps, and cracked forcing cones.

rc

rikman
September 15, 2011, 03:16 PM
RC,

Thanks for posting. Very interesting info. It's funny I never paid too much attention when I bought factory plinking ammo. Do you think it's fair to say all of these light bullets,i.e. 110gr & 125gr 357's and 115 gr 9mm's are light due to less metal and cheaper to produce?

Thread drift...I have a bunch of 9mm ammo 115 gr...and I'm having issues with Glock Gen4...125's :-(

rcmodel
September 15, 2011, 03:39 PM
No, the light JHP bullet .357 load is light because it performs better in SD loads.
It has nothing to do with less metal and cheaper to produce.

The 115 9mm is not light, as 124+/- and 115+/- bullet weights were the only too weights made by several countries military for many years after it was introduced in 1902.
Even U.S. commercial ammo was not available in any other weight clear up through the 1970's.

A quick check of my 1970 Shooter Bible shows only three U.S. made 9mm loads being sold.
Remington/Peters sold 124 FMJ, and Winchester sold 115 FMJ.
Norma imported a 116 grain FMJ, and a 104 grain Armor piercing load.

Same with .357 Mag.
Only 7 U.S. made loads sold then.
And all used 158 grain bullets.
Norma imported a JSP, and a JHP, but both were 158 grain bullets.

As I said earlier, the light bullet / hi-speed loads all started in the early 70's by the Super Vel Ammo Company.

rc

rikman
September 15, 2011, 03:50 PM
Interesting info on the 9mm bullets. It makes sense with lighter bullets more velocity and better for SD.

This Glock issue has been a pain. It ran the other day with 124gr's but I still for pelted in the mug with an occasional case.

CDH
September 15, 2011, 04:23 PM
All this talk about pressure and bullet weight and stuff...

I've got a Model 19 I bought brand new in 1972, and a couple of 66's that came later on.
The K-frame guns have a reputation for not being super heavy duty when shooting magnum loads, and I'll buy into that as much as the next guy.

But what I wanted to come in and throw out to all you guys who are afraid of putting too many magnums through your 19's is that this is a perfect opportunity to get into handloading.

With a revolver, you don't have to scrounge all over the ground for spent brass because you can eject it right into a box on your bench, so brass is no problem.
On my shorter barrel K-frame .357's, I have no hesitancy to carry them for SD with factory magnums because you (hope) you're not going to need to shoot them very often.
But for shooting at the range and training, I routinely reload my .357 brass using the low end of the powder tables so while I may be shooting .357, I'm only putting cartridges through that have the energy of a .38 Special (maybe "+P").
There is also that little issue that if you shoot a LOT of .38 Special brass in a .357, then you will form a ridge in the cylinders that will make a .357 hang up if you don't keep the cylinders squeaky clean.
Shooting mild loaded .357 brass takes care of that little problem as well.

Reloading is a heckuva lot of fun, and I can't think of a better way to solve the "magnum" problem (if you think there is one) in your Model 19's or 66's.
So basically, I'm pushing the idea that some of you need another hobby.. of reloading. ;)
Also, you don't go through as much ammo with revolvers as you do with autoloaders, so I find that my plain 'ol Rockchucker is plenty fast enough without having to spend the big bucks on a progressive reloader.

gamestalker
September 15, 2011, 07:17 PM
I've got a 66-2 and a 66-5 and reload for both. The rumor about S&W having concerns about the forcing cones is unfounded for the most part. I have shot an unthinkable number of rounds of 125 gr. H110 and 296 loads throungh mine and they are still just as tight and unscathed as when new. The only issues and it isn't specific to the make or model of the revolver, is the shorter 110's and 125's do allow for a lot of gases to pass ahead of the bullet, which can cause bullets to jump up or down in other chambers if you don't put a stout crimp on them. Other than that, I trust them and will continue to load within published data without concerns.
Now on the flip side of this is shooting lead through them. S&W did address this and implied that most of the forcing cone issues were related to lead build up creating too much pressure on the forcing cone, thus fracturing it.

roaddog28
September 15, 2011, 08:37 PM
Thanks Howard,

You're right they look in the same shape...beautiful wheel guns. My serial number is K623XXX. My LGS guy guessed 1969?

Rikman

Rikman according to my S&W book the production of your revolver is 1965. You indicated you have a GP100 and S&W 627. Since you have both there is no need to pound your 19-2 with the 125 gr "flame throwers". Leave them for the GP100 and S&W 627. I shoot that type of ammo in my GP100, Blackhawk and 686.
In my K frame magnums (I have three) I shoot at the range CCI Blazer 158 gr HP 357 magnums. They are easy on the K frame magnums and are accurate. The model 19 and other K frame magnums are not made anymore. S&W does not have any barrels anymore and there are few other choices. I would leave the hot stuff for your GP100 and N frame and save your model 19.
In my humble opinion the best revolver S&W ever made.
Regards,
Howard

rikman
September 15, 2011, 08:42 PM
Hey Howard,

Just got back from the range. What a shooter! My reloads were going in the same hole at 7 yds...some guy came up and asked what caliber I was shooting lol

I like your description of the 125 grainers, I put some thru the GP100 and Flame Throwers is right! I'll look for the CCI Blazer 158's to try.

Rikman

atlantis
September 15, 2011, 08:51 PM
Re light bullets, slow powder, and cracked forcing cones:


The 125 grain bullets driven to maximum velocities used large charges of relatively slow-burning powders. Handloaders know the powder types as WW296 and H-110, among others. The combination of slow ball-type powders and the short bearing surface of the 125 bullets allows prolonged gas cutting of the forcing cone and top strap area, accelerating erosion and wear.

Borescope studies of rifle, machine gun, and auto cannon chamber throats shows a lizzard-skin-like texture due to this gas cutting damage, called "brinelling". The results of brinelling are fine microcracks that weaken the surface of the steel, and further promote erosion. In machine guns and auto cannons, barrel life is measured in terms of "useable accuracy", and round counts that determine this are based on group sizes at engagement ranges.

In the K-frame magnums, the forcing cone dimensions combined with the barrel shank dimensions results in a relatively thin shank at the 6 o'clock position, where a machine cut is made to clear the crane. This is usually where the forcing cone cracks. The L and N frames use much beefier barrel shanks and do not have this cut. S&W intended the K frame magnums to be "carried much and fired seldom" service arms, designed to fire .38 Specials indefinitely, with light to moderate use of .357 Magnums. You notice that S&W has discontinued production of K frame .357 magnums, no doubt due to product liability issues and a couple generations of K frame magnum experience.

Fishslayer
September 15, 2011, 10:05 PM
There is also that little issue that if you shoot a LOT of .38 Special brass in a .357, then you will form a ridge in the cylinders that will make a .357 hang up if you don't keep the cylinders squeaky clean.
Shooting mild loaded .357 brass takes care of that little problem as well.



4gr of Green Dot under a 158gr LSWC in magnum cases is my go to load. No roll crimp & no real worries about using that scrounged no name brass. ;)

I've found that the small Hoppes #9 plastic bottle with the top part cut off is just the right size to soak a K frame cylinder with the extractor rod still attached. Just don't leave a blued cylinder in there too long.

roaddog28
September 15, 2011, 11:05 PM
Just got back from the range. What a shooter! My reloads were going in the same hole at 7 yds...some guy came up and asked what caliber I was shooting lol

Not surprising. Like I said earlier my two model 19s along with my model 13 and 66 are my most accurate revolvers and have the best double action trigger I have ever experienced. I have my share of revolvers both Ruger and S&W but my K frames are my best shooters.
Have fun and congrats.
Howard

PzGren
September 16, 2011, 12:10 AM
I like the S&W M 19s and find them excellent shooters. I reload and wide power range of .38 Specials for them.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Andyd173/DSCI0026-1.jpg

rikman
September 16, 2011, 12:40 PM
PZ,

Nice collection!

RC

PzGren
September 17, 2011, 12:50 AM
Thanks,

I have a few more pre-lock S&W revolvers and really love the K-frames. I always favoured the S&W revolver and am an avid shooter for decades. The most that I paid for my model 19s is $225.

There was little interest in revolvers from the general gun-buying public in those days.

I would like to recommend a S&W M18 to complement that fine M19 that you have, it is the rimfire sibling. It is closer to the M15 that you just traded, without the ejector shroud but that is not necessary for a rimfire cartridge.

I have an old K22 with a 6 inch barrel that I enjoy since many years. Saved a lot of time not spent at the relaoding bench and tripled my investment:D.

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z159/Andyd173/DSCI0059.jpg

rikman
September 17, 2011, 12:55 AM
That K22 is a beauty! I googled the Model 18, you shouldn't have planted the seed! I was looking for a nice K22 but my little shop had a nice 617 at a great price...but of course, I need a blued S&W .22 :-))

PzGren
September 17, 2011, 07:06 AM
Rikman,

you started out the right way, with a blued older S&W revolver! I have gone through the expense of buying a Korth rimfire revolver and the K-22 is a close second in performance, for just one fifth of the price.

I have planted the seed - and I am certain that it will grow into a tall tree of love. A long love affair with the traditional, blued S&W rimfire revolvers.

I cherish mine every bit as much as my Korth. I did my most spectacular shots with it, when my eyesight wa still 35/20.

Cocked & Locked
September 17, 2011, 09:08 PM
I've got just one model 19 now...this 19-2. Its not as nice as the ones pictured but works for me. I've got the original numbered to the gun grips but these ain't them. :scrutiny:

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/6486421/398335687.jpg

http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2169/3082611/6486421/398335686.jpg

rikman
September 17, 2011, 09:13 PM
C&L,

Nice! you shouldn't have posted that pic...now I need a 19-2 snub nose! :)

Rikman

Cocked & Locked
September 17, 2011, 09:23 PM
uh oh...sorry!

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