223 Bullet weights for 1:7 twist


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dalepres
September 19, 2011, 12:26 AM
I have a new, unfired so far, AR-15, home built. It has an 18-in 1:7 twist barrel. I know it can handle heavier weight bullets but what is the best, safest, and reliable weights for the lower weight bullets? Should I expect it to shoot 52 to 55 grain ammunition reliably?

Thanks,

Dale

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FlyinBryan
September 19, 2011, 12:47 AM
you should have no problems with any bullets from around 50 grains and up.

i think a pretty good rule of thumb is 1/7 for bullets of 50 grains and up, and for 1/9 70 grains or less.

midtennpawnstar
September 19, 2011, 01:28 AM
I have a Bravo company/spikes tactical ar i put together and i went with the 1:7 primarily because i have a ton of 62gr pmc lap, from what i know thats the primary grain in mind with the 1:7 but like FlyinBryan says 50 grains and up your good....dont really want to go lower because your varmint loads like 45gr and lower could tear up with a tight twist.......happy shooting!

Tape
September 19, 2011, 01:29 AM
1:7 Twist 62-77 grain range

ugaarguy
September 19, 2011, 01:43 AM
1:7 twist will shoot any .223 / 5.56 bullet up to 77 grains. You can't over stabilize a bullet. If you decide to shoot very thinly jacketed bullets (typically marketed as varmint bullets) weighing less than 55 grains in a 1:7 twist bbl. keep velocity under 2800 fps to prevent tearing the jacket.


http://www.ar15.com/content/manuals/FM23-9.pdf p.210
Figure F-15B shows two 25.4-cm shot groups fired by the same skilled marksman at a distance of 274.2 meters, using an M16A2 rifle. The shot group on the left was fired (and zeroed) with M855 ammunition. The shot group
on the right was fired after substituting M193 ammunition.
M855 is 62 grain FMJ with a steel penetrater core. M193 is standard 55 grain FMJ. The M16A2 has a 1:7 twist barrel.

Tape
September 19, 2011, 01:57 AM
weighing less than 55 grains in a 1:7 twist bbl. keep velocity under 2800 fps to prevent tearing the jacket.



#of fps; glad you brought that up because many I have told say I'm full of it, that is the reason I didn't mention it, don't feel like bickering. I tell people that if spun to fast it can fall apart before it gets to the target.

Red State
September 19, 2011, 01:59 AM
What uagaarguy said.

55gr will be fine all day long, but 62gr will probably be better.

ugaarguy
September 19, 2011, 02:04 AM
#of fps; glad you brought that up because many I have told say I'm full of it, that is the reason I didn't mention it, don't feel like bickering. I tell people that if spun to fast it can fall apart before it gets to the target.
Yep, it's right there in the Speer Reloading Manual (and probably others). I'm sure they just made it up :D .

helotaxi
September 19, 2011, 08:07 PM
It depends on the particular bullet. The Speer TNT and Hornady SPSX are particularly fragile and run the risk of gyroscopic failure. The Sierra Blitzkings and Hornady V-Max can have the crap driven out of them without issue. I've also loaded some screaming Varmint Grenades (36gn) from my 1:7 and they held together fine and were fairly accurate.

mshootnit
September 19, 2011, 09:57 PM
Are there any weight 22 cal projectiles that 1/8 won't stabilize?

supercalvin56
September 19, 2011, 10:05 PM
I have a 7 twist 223 that shoots anything....even the 40 grainers. Try it, I'll bet you never have a problem, I haven't

FlyinBryan
September 20, 2011, 12:07 AM
weighing less than 55 grains in a 1:7 twist bbl. keep velocity under 2800 fps to prevent tearing the jacket.

i used to doubt people that said this until i lost a support rod and a sunshield on my chronograph because one poofed right between the chrony eyes.

it was last thanksgiving and we were shooting 45g bullets out of a 1/7. i was loading them @3500+ with varget.

i thought my chrony shorted out because it looked like sparks shooting out of it.
(shooting chrony has great customer service because i called them much later, like 6 months, and told them what happened, the truth, and they sent me new stuff for free.)

rori
September 20, 2011, 02:34 AM
Why have a 7 barrel if you don't want to shoot heavy bullets. My minis are 9's and I wish one of them was a 7 so I could run heavier bullets than the 65's I run now. Frank

Robert
September 20, 2011, 01:09 PM
I shoot 55gr bullets, both factory and hand loads of unknown velocity, in my 1:7 rifle with 0 problems. I have never had a 55gr bullet come apart before reaching the target. Ever.

55gr though 77gr should be fine in any reliable AR. I have a bunch of 62gr waiting to be loaded up. But I shoot at ranges up to 600m and like the heavier bullet.

TonyAngel
September 20, 2011, 01:26 PM
In answer to your question regarding 52 and 55gr projectiles, you won't have any problems with those. Actually, I'll say that you shouldn't have any problems with those. I really like the 52gr projectiles from Sierra and the 55s from Hornady and have had good results with them for ranges out to around 300 yards or so.

UKWildcats
September 20, 2011, 01:34 PM
Here is some good information on maximum bullet weights versus barrel twist -- http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.html

Just be carefule shooting light bullets fast -- the jackets can be too thin to handle the spin rate and will fall apart in flight.

UK

wingman
September 20, 2011, 01:40 PM
I've owned 4 or 5 223's they all preferred 52gr match @100 yards. Honestly while it may be a 1/7 or 1/9 twist never know what it will shoot best until trying, but the 52 Berger match or 52 sierra has always been the most accurate for me.

helotaxi
September 20, 2011, 04:44 PM
I've heard it from so called experts that a 55 gr. bullet won't work well in a fast twist rifle. Even in a 1:9 twist barrel 55 gr. is too light. I know it isn't accurate at all in my 1:9 compared to heavier rounds. Bullets will spin themselves out of round which means accuracy goes out the window and the jackets can even rip right off the bullets. Yes you can overcome the problems if you load your own ammo and keep the speed down but if you're buying off the shelf ammo those 55 gr. bullets are liable to rip themselves apart before they reach the target just as others have said. They mentioned keeping the speed down but they didn't say what it takes to keep the speed down. It requires you loading your own ammo AFAIK. Maybe some off the shelf ammo is rated at those speeds but I don't know of any.

You can file all that in the BS department. Accuracy is a factor of barrel quality and matching a load to barrel harmonics. Unless you've tried to tune a load with a quality bullet to your rifle, you can't say that 55gn bullets won't shoot from your rifle. All you can say is that the loads you tried were not accurate. If you're talking about mil-type 55gn loads, the bullet itself was the cause of the poor accuracy, not the weight but the consistency (or lack thereof). I've shot from 36gn to 75gn bullets from my ARs (with both 1:9 and 1:7 twist) with acceptable accuracy and no bullet failures with modern style varmint bullets (not Speer TNT or Hornady SPSX). I've never made an effort to keep the velocity down either.

dc.fireman
September 20, 2011, 06:01 PM
Dalepres - I shoot Hornady 68 gr. BTHP's, and Sierra 69 gr. HPBT's, loaded over Varget powder. I'm currently working on a load for Nosler 77 gr. BTHP's. You'll be fine in the twist rate department for the heavier weight bullets. I think where you may run into a problem, is if you attempt to go with something which requires a longer-than-magazine length load (which for an AR-15, is slightly over the 2.260" mark). I forget if it's the A-Max, or V-Max - but one of the Hornady 75 gr. bullets may cause you problems if you decide to load it for the AR. The long bullet ogive, doesn't go well with the magazine length requirement. You can load them, and shoot them in single - fire fashion, just not from the magazine (easily, at least).

Hocka Louis
September 20, 2011, 08:09 PM
Flyin Bryan has it backwards. Tape is right.

1:7 is NATO for heavy heads about 62 up to and including 77 gr. tracer rounds. Those who have them get defensive about it and claim they'll do everything. OK Sure. Colt pushed them on the civilian market. If you have 1:7 forget buying less 62 gr. bullet ammo -- it isn't for you.

Someone mentioned a BSM -- my stainless target carbine is 1:8. They know better shooters are going heavy but never 77 gr. heavy! I could also make do with 55 in a pinch.

1:9 is kinda univesal 55 - 62.

Wanna shoot 55, and/or 55 or less!? 1:9 or SLOWER twist if you can. The original was 1:14, then 1:12. 1:11 you'll sometimes see for 55 and lighter as well. Even 1:10.

ugaarguy
September 20, 2011, 09:09 PM
1:7 is NATO for heavy heads about 62 up to and including 77 gr. tracer rounds. Those who have them get defensive about it and claim they'll do everything. OK Sure. Colt pushed them on the civilian market. If you have 1:7 forget buying less 62 gr. bullet ammo -- it isn't for you.
I guess US Army FM 23-9 is lying. The M16A2 (1:7) shoots M193 (55 grain) as well it shoots M855 (long 62 gr steel core), and as well as the M16A1 (1:12) shoots M193.
Someone mentioned a BSM -- my stainless target carbine is 1:8. They know better shooters are going heavy but never 77 gr. heavy! I could also make do with 55 in a pinch.
Never 77 gr? That's a bold statement. Black Hills sold so much Mk 262 Mod 1 (77 gr SMK w/ cannelure) overrun ammo that they started offering it as a standard item being sold 5.56 77 gr OTM.
1:9 is kinda univesal 55 - 62.
Or you could say 1:9 is too fast for really thinly jacketed light bullets, and too slow for the really long (aka heavy) stuff. (Unless you have an exceptional 1:9 twist bbl. like one member here which will stabilize the 77gr stuff).
Wanna shoot 55, and/or 55 or less!? 1:9 or SLOWER twist if you can. The original was 1:14, then 1:12. 1:11 you'll sometimes see for 55 and lighter as well. Even 1:10.
Again, 1:7 twist is just as accurate as 1:12 with 55 gr. FMJ, or other moderate to thick jacket ammo.

Robert
September 20, 2011, 09:24 PM
If you have 1:7 forget buying less 62 gr. bullet ammo -- it isn't for you.
So the over 500 rounds of 55gr I have shot at steel, and hit for the most part, out to ranges of 400+m are just all a fluke? Cool! I like it when I defy the laws of the universe.

TonyAngel
September 20, 2011, 09:36 PM
Man, lots of bad information flying around in here. I wonder how many of the guys posting that you can't shoot a 55gr and under bullet out of a 1:7 twist rifle are speaking from experience. If they are speaking from experience, what did they miss when experience was speaking. If they had a rifle that tore a varmint bullet apart, what brand/type of bullet was it? If they had a rifle that wouldn't shoot 55gr bullets accurately, again, what brand and type of bullet was it; and was it true of one rifle or more than one rifle.

The fact of the matter is that you won't know if a particular bullet will shoot in your rifle until you work up a load for it and see. I've had several 1:7 twist barrels that showed a real preference for 52gr HPs at shorter distances.

BTW, the twist needed to stabilize a bullet is NOT dictated by the bullet's weight, but its length. There are longer bullets out there that are lower in weight, but require the faster twist rates due to their length. A good point of comparison is the Sierra 77gr SMK and the Hornady 75gr A-Max. I've had 1:9 barrels that would shoot the SMK pretty well, but wouldn't shoot the A-Max at all. The A-Max is a long bullet and cannot be loaded to mag length. I've never been able to get the A-Max to shoot in anything slower than a 1:7.

I do, however, have to admit that I have a theory and have speculated that a 1:9 twist barrel would shoot crappy 55gr bullets better than a 1:7 will. This is only based on the fact that cheap bullets aren't always perfectly round or balanced like good/expensive match bullets and will have a wobble to them, which is exacerbated by the increased rotational speed of the faster twist. It's just a theory and haven't given anything more than thought to it because I usually shoot match bullets when I'm looking for accuracy.

FlyinBryan
September 20, 2011, 09:41 PM
Flyin Bryan has it backwards.

lol @ hocka

ugaarguy
September 20, 2011, 09:48 PM
I do, however, have to admit that I have a theory and have speculated that a 1:9 twist barrel would shoot crappy 55gr bullets better than a 1:7 will. This is only based on the fact that cheap bullets aren't always perfectly round or balanced like good/expensive match bullets and will have a wobble to them, which is exacerbated by the increased rotational speed of the faster twist. It's just a theory and haven't given anything more than thought to it because I usually shoot match bullets when I'm looking for accuracy.
THR member rsilvers alluded to that in a recent .22 LR bbl. twist thread. He does something with weapons development at AAC (based on his posts in the 300 Blackout Threads), and he seems to know his stuff. I think your theory is sound, and probably has been proven. Based ATK's technical bulletens, and the documentation in FM 23-9 I'd wager that US M193 ball is near perfectly round, and well balanced.

TonyAngel
September 21, 2011, 12:54 AM
ugaarguy, I don't know that I can agree with you on the quality of M193 ball. From what I understand it is only mean to be a 2 MOA performer. I know that I had, at one time, pulled a bunch of bullets from some LC stuff that I had. I got variances in bullet weight, length (when measured from the ogive) and variances in powder charges. I don't know that I'd call them big, but if my handloads were put together like that they would have wound up in the reject bin.

All of that aside, I've NEVER been able to shoot consecutive MOA groups with M193 out of any of my rifles. I say consecutive because luck does strike once in a while and it does happen, but not with any consistency.

If you get a chance, try pulling some bullets and do a comparison and see what you think.

FlyinBryan
September 21, 2011, 01:35 AM
All of that aside, I've NEVER been able to shoot consecutive MOA groups with M193 out of any of my rifles. I say consecutive because luck does strike once in a while and it does happen, but not with any consistency.

i will need to be somewhat educated on the definition of m193, but if it is the same bullet as the standard hornady 55g fmjbt bullet, open based, or having visible lead on the base, with a cannelure, then i have been able to very consistently shoot less than m.o.a. with them.

i would say at the very least, testing was (has always been) ten consecutive 5-shot groups averaging apprx. o.80",,, with more than one rifle (2) all fired from a bench, on bipods and squeeze bags. (fairly rapidly, or at least without consideration being given to heat, but fired, from a magazine, slowly enough to obtain trigger control as precisely as i can)

i should add that these are being loaded with 22grains of hodgdons extreme h322 in l.c. brass trimmed to 1.755, c.o.a.l. of 2.245, with an avg velocity of 3075-3125fps.

maybe what ive described is not remotely close to true m193. im interested to hear.

ugaarguy
September 21, 2011, 01:44 AM
Once I get all my reloading stuff setup I may sacrifice a few and do that. I'm not saying M193 is match stuff by any stretch. I'm simply saying that, based on what's supposed to be rejected according to the M193 Technical Bulletin (http://le.atk.com/pdf/XM193.pdf) that XM193 is very likely better constructed than the really cheap imported 5.56 / .223 FMJ. I need to weigh powder charges, and measure & weigh bullets on both XM193 and something like Tula or Wolf to get a comparison.

I've also not seen any real performance difference from M193 whether fired from 1:12, 1:9, or 1:7 twist bbls. Much of that probably has to do with using factory match ammo, or hand loaded match bullets when actually engaged in precision (attempted precision at least :o ) shooting.

I also had a Colt SP1 (1:12 twist bbl) that really liked Remington 62 gr OTM. Go figure.

ETA:
i should add that these are being loaded with 22grains of hodgdons extreme h322 in l.c. brass trimmed to 1.755, c.o.a.l. of 2.245, with an avg velocity of 3075-3125fps. maybe what ive described is not remotely close to true m193. im interested to hear. What barrel length are you firing them from? Going back to that technical bulletin above: INSTRUMENTAL VELOCITY: 3165 +/- 40 FPS (78 feet from muzzle) using a 5.56 test barrel, 20” long XM193 is also supposed to be rejected if it doesn't meet this accuracy standard: ACCURACY: 3-10round groups not to exceed 2.00” mean radius maximum average at 200 yards

ugaarguy
September 21, 2011, 01:54 AM
After reading back over the past few posts by myself, and a few others, all I can think is: We're a bunch of THR ammo / ballistics nerds. :neener:

FlyinBryan
September 21, 2011, 01:57 AM
well is the bullet i describe above the same as a m193 bullet? (i honestly do not know)

i should also add that these are not given any special care as far as trying to load them for accuracy. they just happen to be a pretty accurate load that i stumbled upon.

when i try to wring out some top accuracy, i carefully seperate cases by weight, casemouth thickness (for consistent bullet case tension), headspace meaurements from shoulder to the base of each case, seating .008-.010" off the lands, individual charge weight, etc, etc, etc,,,,,

these are really thrown together, coming off a progressive press at a pretty brisk rate (takes about 8 minutes to load 100rds) automatic case feeder, automatic shellplate rotation, really flying through them.

when i do everything i can, as mentioned above, and using premium bullets like 69gotm nosler custom competition, or hornady 68g hpbt, with hodgdons varget or benchmark, i can shrink that by an avg of 0.20 m.o.a.

FlyinBryan
September 21, 2011, 01:59 AM
After reading back over the past few posts by myself, and a few others, all I can think is: We're a bunch of THR ammo / ballistics nerds.

i would like to disagree with that statement,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


but i cant do it truthfully :D

ugaarguy
September 21, 2011, 02:11 AM
well is the bullet i describe above the same as a m193 bullet? (i honestly do not know)
Forgot to address that, but yes. http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/item/55-Grain-FMJ-M193-Projectiles-1728

benzy2
September 21, 2011, 02:15 AM
BTW, the twist needed to stabilize a bullet is NOT dictated by the bullet's weight, but its length. There are longer bullets out there that are lower in weight, but require the faster twist rates due to their length. A good point of comparison is the Sierra 77gr SMK and the Hornady 75gr A-Max. I've had 1:9 barrels that would shoot the SMK pretty well, but wouldn't shoot the A-Max at all. The A-Max is a long bullet and cannot be loaded to mag length. I've never been able to get the A-Max to shoot in anything slower than a 1:7.

This is what I have found as well. The 77gr SMK is fairly short for it's weight and is stabilized by a 1:9". Same thing for the 75gr Hornady BTHP. The 75gr Amax wouldn't stabilize but it is a longer design than the BTHP and SMK. 62gr Steel core M855 bullets aren't much shorter than 75gr BTHP or 77gr SMKs and I have a feeling the military built in a bit of a buffer on twist rate when they chose 1:9" for standard use with the M855.

ugaarguy
September 21, 2011, 02:42 AM
62gr Steel core M855 bullets aren't much shorter than 75gr BTHP or 77gr SMKs and I have a feeling the military built in a bit of a buffer on twist rate when they chose 1:9" for standard use with the M855.
I'm guessing you meant 1:7 (M16A2 & all subsequent 5.56 US Military firearms are 1:7). IIRC the 1:7 twist was chosen to ensure the really long 64 grain tracer would stabilize in arctic temps.

benzy2
September 21, 2011, 03:05 PM
For some reason I was thinking we went from 1:12 to 1:9 then 1:7. Either way, 62gr M855 is accepted to stabilize out of a 1:9". It's length is similar to some of the 73gr lead core rounds, and M855 isn't considered on the edge of what a 1:9" can handle.

ziegler44
September 21, 2011, 04:19 PM
I generally just stick with your standard 55gr. But I just went to this new gun shop and found a good price on some PMC X-Tac 62gr. Taking it to the range next week to see how it does. But yeah, you should be good with ≥55gr.

Robert
September 21, 2011, 09:36 PM
And they call this the high road. Assumptions. Insults.
No one insulted you directly. No one said Jeff56 is x,y, or z. They may disagree with what you say in a terse manner but no one attacked you.

But this stuff of calling what I said "BS" is over the line.

Just because they don't agree with you? My experience with 55gr bullets is vastly different than what you have described. My 1:7 barrel likes them just fine and I have never had one come apart on me. So which one of us is right? And if you disagree with me I will take it as a personal attack...

helotaxi
September 21, 2011, 09:56 PM
Jeff, what 55gn load in particular were you having issues with? Actual scientific analysis of light bullets with twist rates in excess of the minimum required to stabilize them reveals that there is no relationship between twist and accuracy so long as the twist is fast enough to stabilize the bullet in question.

Benchrest rifles are very specialized pieces of kit and essentially nothing from that discipline transitions to a practical rifle. Benchrest shooters build a rifle around a very narrow set of performance parameters and tune every part from the rifle to the load to their technique around the game that they are playing. At 100 yds, BC simply doesn't matter. As such, short, flat-based bullets are perfectly acceptable. Short bullets only require a slow twist and benchrest shooters go with the slowest twist that they can not because it makes any difference in how the bullet flies after it leaves the barrel but because the slow twist applies less torque to the rifle and upsets it less in the bags. That leads to repeatability. The difference is only on the order of tenths of an inch. Me personally, I'd rather have a rifle that can shoot a variety of bullets and loads in the 0.5-0.75" range than one that shoots one that shoots one load in the 0.1-0.2" range at 100yds only.

P-32
September 22, 2011, 05:35 AM
I might be comming to the party a little late but.....A 1 in 7 should shoot about any bullet you can load up to at least 80 gr. SMK's. I have some Berger 90 gr. bullets I have not tried yet.

I have a AR with a 1 to 6 1/2 twist, (dreamed of shooting 90 gr bullets out to 1k but the 80's will make it.) I have shot all SMK weights out of the 6 1/2 with no ill effect. I like the 52 gr SMK's for reduced matches. This set up has won me money and matches. I also have a 7 to 1 twist that has only seen 77 and 80 gr. SMK's.

For those who care both uppers were built by White Oak Precision.

I have seen bullets fragment on their way to the target but these were all 168 SMK's coming out of a 1in 10 twist rifle.

I have never seen any weight of GI ball shoot tight groups compaired to tailored reloads. I've shot a bit of both. Special Ball might be close in some cases but it's 30 cal.

Robert
September 22, 2011, 10:25 AM
It's also beyond the rules of this board.
If you feel that anyone has broken the rules of THR you best bet is to hit the report button and have the mods take a look at it.
I just don't like vulgar and arrogant comments directed at me.
It was directed at your assertation that 55gr bullets will fail in a 1:7 barrel. I am paraphrasing.

I take everything I read on the internet with a large grain of salt. 6mmbr is a great site and I have used information I have learned there. But it, like here, is a web site contributed to by people. Just because they, you, or anyone else says something does not mean I will take it to heart as gospel. I rely on my own experience first. And as I have said my experience is vastly different than yours and the source that you mention. Am I wrong since my experience differs with your venerable source? Or is there an allowance that in the firearms world we often find enough variable that there is no hard and fast answer? And that the shooter is best advised to try several different loads with different bullet weights to see what works best in their individual rifle.

The problem is, that all rifles will shoot a little bit different. My 1:7 AR mutt will shoot different than a bench rest rifle will shoot different than a JP CTR 02. Take 10 of the same rifle and they will all shoot slightly different. My rifle will shoot 55gr bullets all day long and make hits with ease. Boringly so. But that does not mean that every rifle will do the same. I do not shoot Bench Rest, if I am honest it bores me to tears. So I do not go to that level of expectation out of my rifle or my ammo. I can ring steel at 425y all day long with my AR using hand loads and .gov ammo and that is good enough for me.

Bartholomew Roberts
September 22, 2011, 11:32 AM
So when the people at 6mmbr said a 55 gr. bullet could spin apart in a fast twist rifle they were what, lying?

Well, they damn sure weren't talking about any rifle shooting .223 Remington SAAMI ammunition - or even 5.56 NATO ammunition. Short of specifically designing such a bullet, there is no way you will ever push a 55gr bullet out of a 1:7 barrel fast enough to spin it apart using .223 or 5.56 pressures.

Maybe in the benchrest world where someone necks down a .30-06 cartridge and loads a .223 round in it that might happen; but for 99.9% of the people discussing .223 in 1:7 twist this is a non-issue.

My own personal experience has been that my 1:9 and 1:7 twist barrels shoot 55gr ammo equally well; but then again I do very little shooting where increments of 0.1" are an important difference. I also have a military test somewhere they compared 55gr ammout out of a 1:12 barrel and a 1:7 barrel at 300yds. The group size was identical. You can find the actual document in past posts of mine on this subject if you feel like searching.

Again this serves to show that over spinning a bullet can cause accuracy problems according to science (despite what you said).

It doesn't cause practical accuracy problems for most people however.

wingman
September 22, 2011, 11:56 AM
Difficult to rely on stats to say that a given twist will shoot well, really just guide lines it's nothing more. I've fired a lot of 223 however most at 100 yards in 1/9 twist barrels both bolt and automatics all preferred the 52 gr match for consistent accuracy that includes my stag AR, none of my 223's are that consistent with 68, 69,74 gr bullets but again remember at 100yards. I've only found one bullet in 55gr(Berger match) that will come close to the 52gr.

Best to consider what distance you want to shoot before working up a new load, if I have the opportunity to shoot at 300 I will go back to the larger bullets.



I consider it all part of the hobby of shooting/reloading you just never know what you got until you crack open a new box of bullets and crank out new loads.:D

benzy2
September 22, 2011, 12:14 PM
So has anyone actually seen a 55gr bullet come apart from a .223rem or 5.56 nato chamber or is it all internet hype?

FlyinBryan
September 22, 2011, 01:57 PM
So has anyone actually seen a 55gr bullet come apart from a .223rem or 5.56 nato chamber or is it all internet hype?
ive never seen it, and to be honest ive never even heard of it. i seriously doubt its ever happened unless there was a major defect in the bullet.

So when the people at 6mmbr said a 55 gr. bullet could spin apart in a fast twist rifle they were what, lying? i think the key word here is could

in my opinion, even shooting very light bullets at very fast speeds, 1/7 twists that have problems are going to be about as common as 1/9's having problems with 68-69's

rare air

benzy2
September 22, 2011, 02:01 PM
Again, Jeff, have you seen a single instance, in person or online, where a .223Rem or 5.56 has spun a 55gr apart? Theory aside, as I don't care to argue it from either side, certainly many people have shot 55gr rounds through a 1:7 twist so if there was a problem of 55gr bullets coming apart it should be easily found, right? I'm not interested in if people think the twist "can" pull apart a 55gr bullet, I'm interested in if people have seen it happen in real life. If so, clearly your views are correct. If not, maybe it isn't an issue, regardless of what a few people on another board think "could" happen. Bullets have been shot so theory should have been tested by now, right?

As for why not to put an ultra fast twist barrel on every rifle, I've heard it more to do with heat, friction, and wear than anything else. Seems the faster you spin the bullet, the faster you wear a barrel out.

TonyAngel
September 22, 2011, 02:08 PM
FlyinBryan, M193 is the military designation for a 55gr FMJ projectile loaded to their specs. I really don't know what it is supposed to apply to because the designation is used pretty loosely by many manufacturers, but it usually applies to military surplus or spec ammunition.

When I buy M193, I try to get the Lake City stuff and those projectiles are NOT the same as the Hornady 55gr FMJ projectiles. In fact, the Hornady stuff that you are referring to is usually what I use when loading bulk ammo because it does shoot a lot better than the mispec stuff.

FlyinBryan
September 22, 2011, 02:23 PM
In fact, the Hornady stuff that you are referring to is usually what I use when loading bulk ammo because it does shoot a lot better than the mispec stuff.

well, it does shoot very well for sure, and they are cheap too. ive been getting 500pcs at a local reloading supply for 38 dollars. its really hard to beat.

i also dont load them to any specs other than what i have found to be the best out of our barrels, which is most likely somewhat slower than whatever mil-spec calls for.

AR-15 Rep
September 22, 2011, 02:42 PM
OK... There are many factors to consider when choosing barrel twist rates.
1. Length of barrel
2. type of barrel steel ie 4140, 4150
3. chrome moly vs chrome lined
4. type of ammo .223 ( 55k chamber pressure ) 5.56mm ( 62k chamber pressure )
5. projectile weight
6. propellant used ( projectile velocity rates )
7. Flash hider, muzzle brake, target crown etc affect accuracy
8. Type of barrel Rifling ( button grooved, Polygonal, etc )
9. Barrel harmonics

In short, there are many factors to consider. These are just some off the top to think about.

Bartholomew Roberts
September 22, 2011, 02:55 PM
I've presented multiple sources about the possibility of lighter bullets spinning apart and all based on science.

Jeff, you said... and I quote:

but if you're buying off the shelf ammo those 55 gr. bullets are liable to rip themselves apart before they reach the target just as others have said.

Not one of the "sources" you've presented says anything about 55gr bullets from a .223 SAAMI chamber or 5.56x45 NATO chamber spinning apart - and for good reason - it doesn't happen.

You aren't going to spin any off-the-shelf 55gr bullet apart in a 1:7 barrel with a .223 chamber or 5.56 NATO chamber. It won't happen. This isn't a matter of opinion, it is a matter of cold hard fact.

451 Detonics
September 22, 2011, 03:27 PM
Even in a one in 10 twist I have to get a 55gr up to over 4200 fps to get one to blow up occasionally and them only a couple brands of bullets. With the 53 grain V-Max even over 4300 it has never happened...can't see it happening at .223 velocities unless the bullet is damaged.

I shoot a 1/7 twist in a Colt upper, it loves the BVAC 62 grain bulk ammo, doesn't do as well with 68 grain match...every barrel is different.

Robert
September 22, 2011, 04:47 PM
Don't expect me to come back here and argue this issue.
I am right and you are wrong and I have the internet to back me up so I am taking my ball and going home. Very mature of you.

No one ever said that it was not possible to make a bullet come apart, or that a flawed bullet might not come apart. All we said was in spec ammo shot from an in spec rifle with more often than not function without issue.

FlyinBryan
September 22, 2011, 05:46 PM
i dont think we should be telling the o.p. that 55g bullets can fly apart when being fired from a 1/7 ar15 barrel.

it is truly a rediculous claim.

45? maybe
55? no way.

it is without a doubt the most common bullet fired from every 1/7 barrel in the hands of shooters.

helotaxi
September 22, 2011, 06:12 PM
helotaxi you seem to be under the impression that I just fell off the turnip truck. That's where people usually go wrong on these boards. You shouldn't make assumptions sir. They have a way of coming back on you.

You assuming that I assumed that pans out how?

You talk about "scientific analysis" but you don't offer any as proof. You just expect us to take your word for it. I talked about information from one of the most respected sites on the net. The link was posted by UKWildcats. If you have this scientific proof you refer to let's see it.

Brian Litz discusses this topic a good bit in Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting. His conclusion, based on extensive computer analysis is that over-stabilization is a myth.

Until you do the scientific information posted at the 6mbr site trumps your unsubstantiated claims. And I don't recall saying that the information at 6mmbr detailed a lack of accuracy with 55 gr. bullets in a 1:9 twist barrel. In fact I specifically said it was another site where I got that information.

Hornady and Speer each single out one bullet from their line that must be kept to reduced velocities to avoid an in-flight bullet failure. This is the 3rd time in this thread that I've said that.

As for my not working up a load with 55 gr. ammo in concert with barrel harmonics keeping me from determining that a 55 gr. bullet doesn't work well with my twist rate it sure as heck seems funny that the more I moved to higher weights the more accurate my shooting became. I didn't just up pick a box of Wolf .223 and decide that was the be all and end all of 55 gr. ballistics as you assumed that I did. I tested dozens of different loads. I do know how to arrive at a bullet that functions well for my rifle. And the funny thing is that all of the bullets I have used that worked well have all been heavier than 68 gr.. Now either that is a fantastic coincidence or there is something to the theory advanced by some that heavier loads are more accurate in a 1:9 twist barrel.

It's a fantastic coincidence. I've yet to encounter a 55gn FMJ factory load that shoots worth squat. The cheap bullets are the cause, not the fact that they happen to be 55gn. Funnt thing about the heavier bullets is that they are all match bullets and the factory loads that contain them are likewise match loads.

Do I have that information handy? Well yes I do In a scientific sort of way. I'll point you to this web page (http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/July01.htm) where you'll find this quote:

"Faster than optimum twists tend to exaggerate errors in bullet concentricity and may cause wobble."

That to me says that cheap bullets shoot poorly. Not a surprise. Quality bullets are extremely consistent and this is a total non-issue with quality ammo.

Wobble is not a good thing when it comes to accuracy. Apparently overstabilization only causes problems in a limited number of situations but I would bet that's what happens with my rifle using too fast of a spin. And just for the record I've seen other quotes that claim that overstabilization does cause problems such as: (http://kwk.us/twist.html)

"Howell feels one can overstablize a bullet. Ideally, the bullet's axis will keep tangent to the flight path, but overstablized, the bullet will instead remain pointing in the direction of the barrel."

Again this serves to show that over spinning a bullet can cause accuracy problems according to science (despite what you said). You did notice that the quote above said that the ideal was to have the bullet keep tangent to the flight path but when spun too fast the bullet will remain pointed in the direction of the barrel instead. right? You do understand that is a predictable cause of accuracy issues, right?

"Howell suspects..." Translation, he thinks that it might be the case but he doesn't actually have any scientific information to support his theory. Read Litz. This becomes an issue at ranges well beyond the effective range of whatever round you're talking about; a range that requires the rifle to be aimed at an extreme upward angle. This "adverse" yaw also only causes the bullet to lose velocity at a faster rate than normal ballistic analysis would normally indicate.

So it seems that science is indeed on my side.

Others' pontification hardly qualifies as science. Anecdotes don't equal evidence. If you want some more actual analysis beyond that of Litz, look at some of the analysis done by Molon over on AR15.com concerning 1:7 barrels and 55gn ammo.

benzy2
September 23, 2011, 01:11 AM
Jeff, I ask you again, have you ever seen a 55gr bullet come apart shot from a .223rem/5.56nato cartridge, regardless of twist? Have you heard someone claim they have had it happen personally? Plenty of people have shot 55gr rounds out of a .223/5.56 and if jacket failure is a problem, it must be documented, right? Has real life shooting matched the theories you quote as being true?

And I just read your "supporting material". Seems you may want to go back and read it. He said, and I quote " I haven’t seen a 55gr milsurp disintegrate from overspin in a 1:7 barrel." Hmm.

His entire article comes down to the point that cheap ammo shoots poorly and quality ammo shoots well. If you push the ultra thin jacketed bullets in the ultra fast twist barrels as hard as you can, you might have them go poof. If you use cheap ammo, it won't hit where you aim. If you use ultra long bullets in the ultra slow twists, it's going to key hole. Not much more than is commonly accepted.

TonyAngel
September 23, 2011, 01:38 AM
So...what was the question again?

FlyinBryan
September 24, 2011, 01:43 AM
So...what was the question again?

lol, best bullet weights for a 1/7 twist barrel :D

i think practically speaking 50ish and the sky's the limit from there (no pun intended):D

dalepres
September 25, 2011, 10:16 PM
I haven't been able to get to email or the net for a week so I got behind. I have to say, though, thanks to everyone for a lively, interesting, and informative discussion on my question.

The most important thing is that I can expect to have a lot of fun with the 55 grain ammo I have on the shelf - even if I don't win competitions with it - and I can do so safely without bullets blowing apart and doing unexpected things. Now I can start planning that break-in trip to the range.

I'm looking for a good plinking gun and round. 2 MOA won't hurt my feelings a bit as a starting place. The factory rounds are really, to me, just once-fired-brass kits used to make brass for reloading. When I start reloading them I will take a lot of great ideas and information from this thread into consideration and will, hopefully, get a great round for my barrel. In any case, it seems like what I have will work for casual plinking.

Jeff, I have really appreciated your participation in the thread. Good debate helps strengthen the outcome. Please take this in the humorous way it is intended when I say, though, that science is a great thing but it tells me I can never travel faster than the speed of light (which has now been proven incorrect) but since I can't go over 75 on the ground and 700 in the air, the idea that I can't go over 186,000 in space is kind of meaningless to me. :)

I do accept your premise that it is possible to spin a bullet apart at high velocity and light weight and a fast spin. I'll keep that in mind when I start loading for accuracy. Thanks.

Thanks again to all who have participated so far.

Dale

FlyinBryan
September 26, 2011, 12:27 AM
I'm looking for a good plinking gun and round. 2 MOA won't hurt my feelings a bit as a starting place.
55's are pretty much the best plinking bullets regardless of twist simply because they are so cheap and load data for them is vast. if 2moa is all it takes to satisfy you, then you will be thrilled with the 1moa that a good barrel (1/7 or 1/9) will yield.

TonyAngel
September 26, 2011, 02:12 AM
Well, if a good plinking round is what you're looking for and 2 MOA won't hurt your feelings, I regularly pop clay pigeons and hit golf balls with enough regularity to keep it fun with just about any .223 or 5.56 55gr ammo. When I buy loaded ammo, it's usually some flavor (55 or 62gr) of Silver Bear or Lake City M193.

If you reload and want something a bit better without breaking the bank, Bryan is right about the Hornady 55gr FMJ projectiles. They are a step or two above milspec bullets. I load them in a progressive press with ball powder. 1000 rounds loads up pretty fast. If you want to step it up a tad from that, try Nosler 69 and 77gr bullets. They are a little more expensive, but less expensive than Sierra's offerings, although I stick to Sierra when accuracy is what I'm chasing.

I'd also like to throw this out there. Lots of guys get into an AR and start over thinking things, as though they think there's a lot of science or voodoo to it. There isn't. Just get out and enjoy the rifle. Odds are that 55gr is what you'll be shooting the most of because it's what's cheap and usually shoots straight enough.

What you should be asking about is what parts to keep on hand, like gas rings, cam pins and buffer springs. If you plan to shoot your rifle a lot, you should at least have some gas rings on hand. If/when your rifle starts to short stroke, change the rings.

TonyAngel
September 26, 2011, 11:33 AM
Jeff, if you are representing that you had 55gr bullets come apart when fired out of a 1:9 barrel (or 1:7 for that matter) and your premise is that the bullet must have come apart because you didn't see anything hit the target, I would suggest that you rethink your position. Maybe nothing hit the target because you missed the target.

Of course, it's still possible that there was something wrong with your rifle and/or ammunition and there could be other reasons that would cause the bullet to come apart; but to say that 55gr ammunition is inappropriate for a barrel with a 1:7 twist is just plain bad information.

If you came to your hypothesis as a result of shooting at 1/4 of a mile (440 yards), I'd have to say that you plain missed the target. Not because you can't shoot, but because that is pretty much pushing the envelop of what a 55gr projectile is capable of consistently shooting. There's a reason why shooters prefer 77gr and heavier projectiles at longer distances.

Have you ever had this result at less than 440 yards?

I would suggest that you get out to a class or similar setting and try to sell this to someone that knows what they're talking about and see what happens.

Robert
September 26, 2011, 12:45 PM
Sorry guys I was at a competition this weekend. And dang if those 55gr bullets work like a charm in my 1:7 barrel. I can say without reservation that my misses were a result of not remembering where I zeroed my scope in the spring. Once I figured my holds right I did ok. Did tank the 3rd stage though. But that was a shooter issue. Always room for improvement on my end too.

FlyinBryan
September 26, 2011, 10:24 PM
But it was like the bullet disappeared. And that's all you would notice if a bullet did spin apart. These guys seem to be laboring under the impression that you would "see" a bullet travelling well in excess of 3000 fps blow up in mid-air or something

you were just missing.

when a bullet flies apart you can see it.

TonyAngel
September 27, 2011, 11:48 AM
Jeff, you didn't kick my rear in any competition, did you? Still, you're wrong about the 55gr projectiles coming apart due to excessive twist and I know you're wrong. That's the reason that I've taken the position that I have.

I'm not trying to be less than civil, but the fact of the matter is that information such as yours is something akin to the lacquer coating on steel cased ammunition melting in your chamber. It's wrong, but someone is going to spread it.

Bartholomew Roberts
September 27, 2011, 12:52 PM
Because that's the only reason I can think of that you're being so offensive.

Pointing out that you are wrong on a factual matter like 55gr bullets at 3,000fps being spun apart by a 1:7 twist isn't offensive. It is pointing out an objective fact. Or were you saying that you found being corrected and/or objective fact offensive?

Bartholomew Roberts
September 27, 2011, 04:37 PM
Did you read my source material Bart? You should before you make blanket statements based on nothing but opinion. It is an objective fact that 55 gr. bullets do spin apart at 3000 fps. I provided proof, not opinion.

Yes, I did read your material Jeff - every link and I did not once see anything supporting a claim that 55gr bullets can spin apart at 3,000 fps muzzle velocity in either a 1:7 or 1:9 barrel. All I saw were general claims that with enough velocity and a fast enough twist, a light, thin-jacketed bullet could spin apart. However, none of those links appeared to believe that a 55gr bullet was light, thin-jacketed or that 3,000fps was sufficient velocity to spin one apart. Perhaps you could point me towards the specific part you believe supports your argument?

I've got something like 15,000 logged rounds through 1:7 and 1:9 barrels and most of it is 55gr. If you include the rounds I've witnessed fired at classes, training, and plinking with friends, it is a lot of 55gr downrange through 1:9 and 1:7 barrels.

Two things I have not yet seen: accuracy problems relevant to anyone outside benchrest shooting and 55gr bullets spinning apart.

I think you're being immature by demanding that I come here and endure your incessant arguments that I have shown to be wrong.

I realize you didn't direct that statement at me, Jeff; but from my perspective, a failure to admit when you are wrong is probably the most marked sign of immaturity. I eagerly await the opportunity to admit I was wrong and that off-the-shelf 55gr bullets at 3,000 fps in 1:7 or 1:9 barrels can spin apart; but I'm still not seeing support for that proposition in your posts and it runs counter to all of my experience with that combo.

TonyAngel
September 27, 2011, 05:06 PM
Jeff, I understand that you did a bunch of reading up, but I'm speaking from first hand experience. I'm not saying that I've seen it all, but I have sent tens of thousands of 55gr projectiles down range and all of them were fired out of rifles with barrel twists of 1:9 or faster, with most of them coming from 1:8 and 1:7 barrels.

Another thing to consider is the guys that shoot precision matches using ARs. I know quite a few of them that shoot the same rifles for the 200, 300 and 600 yard lines, but vary their ammo using some flavor of 50 something grain flat base bullets for the 200 and 300 yard lines, while saving the heavier stuff (77gr and over) for the longer distances; and as I said, they are doing all of this shooting from the same rifle, many of which are running 1:7 or 1:6.5 twists.

With regard to the links that you posted, and the information contained in them, they do make some statements regarding light bullets and their flying apart when fired from fast twist barrels, but I think that you may have missed applying some perspective. A 55gr .223 bullet is not a light bullet. A 35 or 40gr bullet is what is considered light in the realm of .223s. 55s are, in fact, the middle weights.

ugaarguy
September 28, 2011, 05:13 AM
I also said that those sites most certainly do suggest that a 55 gr. bullet could "wobble" when shot from a fast twist rifle and that causes accuracy issues. I have seen accuracy issues from just such a setup. I do not "know" that's the cause. But I at least have to consider it because I've read "many" articles detailing exactly that.
Back in post 27 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7598263&postcount=27) of this thread I agreed with that.
I even dug up what THR member rsilvers (he's an engineer at AAC who's on the .300 AAC Blackout Dev Team) said about fast twist bbls:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7589416&postcount=11
More RPM can increase the dispersion of out of balance bullets. That is about the best reason to not spin much more than needed.
Without knowing specifics on balance of the 55 gr. bullets in the ammo that caused Jeff56's accuracy problems I can't assume anything.

On the other hand, based upon controlled testing done by the US Army (FM 23-9 previously linked in this thread), and ATK / Federal Ammunition (also previously linked in this thread) I'm willing to firmly say that a 1:9 or 1:7 twist barrel is not a problem for the 55gr projectiles loaded M193 and XM193 cartridges, nor are those twist rates a problem for equally or better constructed 55 gr bullets.

Art Eatman
September 28, 2011, 10:10 AM
I don't see how a .223 can drive a 55-grain bullet fast enough to come apart in a 1:7 twist. 35s and 40s, yeah, maybe, or one of the "Blitz" bullets intended for such as a Hornet. But the .223 ain't no Swift or .22-250. Medium power. Useful, of course, but not real impressive.

CraigC
September 28, 2011, 10:24 AM
What did I miss when firing 55 gr. and lighter bullets in a 1:9 twist? The target mostly.
Dang, you're on a roll, Jeff!

Wrong again my friend. All I use are 50-55gr bullets in my 1-9" twist S&W and it shoots them wonderfully. MOA or better.

How can one person 'know' so much that isn't true???

Bartholomew Roberts
September 28, 2011, 11:28 AM
I should qualify my "accuracy" remark by saying that I rarely shoot past 300yds with 55gr and when I do shoot past that distance, I am usually shooting at fairly large targets (IDPA/IPSC silhouettes or High Power bullseyes). So what I consider "practical" accuracy is probably different than what a High Power competitor would consider "practical."

From what shooting I have done, I can see where twist might make a difference past 300yds, although even there I tend to believe the difference is a small one and that the quality of most 55gr bullets plays a bigger role than the twist/length issue.

Justin
September 28, 2011, 02:54 PM
I might have seen a 55 gr. or a 52 gr. bullet spin apart from a 1:9 twist barrel. I mainly said I have read it's a problem at times and the sites I referenced weren't the places I saw it.

I've been running 55 grain bullets in 3 Gun and Tactical Rifle competitions almost exclusively for over five years.

I personally know many shooters who do the same.

The twist rate on my rifle barrel is 1:8, and it's highly likely that most 3 Gun competitors are running rifles with twist rates of between 1:7 and 1:9.

I have never, not once, ever seen a 55 grain bullet disintegrate at any of these matches, nor have I heard about it happening from another competitor, nor have I ever read an after-match online discussion where this has ever even been alluded to as an issue.

Absolutely none of my first-hand, second-hand, or third-hand experience taking part in this sport has ever even hinted that this "problem" even exists.


While I don't consider it to be outside the realm of possibility that a poorly manufactured or out-of-spec bullet might "spin apart," the fact that you can't point to any actual documented evidence that this has happened with anything approaching statistical regularity leads me to believe that it's about as much of an issue as worrying about whether you should take your shark repellent to the range, lest you be attacked by a Great White.


I also said that those sites most certainly do suggest that a 55 gr. bullet could "wobble" when shot from a fast twist rifle and that causes accuracy issues. I have seen accuracy issues from just such a setup. I do not "know" that's the cause. But I at least have to consider it because I've read "many" articles detailing exactly that. I can not find them at this point. I do not care to do a ton of research to prove my point to people who berate me constantly for one thing or another. Find it yourself. It's there.

It's generally well known that the lighter 55 grain bullets tend not to be as accurate as heavier bullets, but that doesn't mean that they are inaccurate. Like Bartholomew Roberts, I've shot 55 grain bullets out as far 550 yards and been able to make hits on steel IPSC silhouettes. That's good enough for the practical accuracy I'm looking for. Were I to go shoot High Power, I'd probably choose a heavier bullet, but then it's a matter of tailoring the ammunition choice to the situation in which it's being used.

From what shooting I have done, I can see where twist might make a difference past 300yds, although even there I tend to believe the difference is a small one and that the quality of most 55gr bullets plays a bigger role than the twist/length issue.

I'd consider it much more important to know your hold over and how to read the wind than to worry about whether or not the rifle's barrel is causing the bullet to "wobble".

Bartholomew Roberts
September 28, 2011, 04:43 PM
You clearly didn't read the source material. Those people would be using high quality ammo while the claim is that cheap ammo with thin jackets are the bullets that might possibly fly apart.

Again Jeff, there isn't anywhere in your "source material" that talks about 55gr bullets spinning apart at 3,000fps. In fact, in over ten years of reading gun forums at TFL, THR, AR15.com, and various others, this is the first time I've even seen someone claim this is possible.

An "an engineer at AAC who's on the .300 AAC Blackout Dev Team" said over spinning a bullet can cause accuracy issues. Guess who gets my confidence?

Accuracy is relative, Jeff. So far all of the sources you have quoted discussing overspinning as an effect on accuracy also describe it as having minimal practical effect on accuracy. In the same post, the same person mentions that he specifically set up a .22LR rifle for 60gr ammo and then mostly shoots 40gr ammo out of it. What would you infer from that?

And if you had read the articles I posted links to you would have read that poorly made ammo can fly apart and about any ammo can have accuracy issues from being overspun.

55gr ammo is perhaps the most common .223 ammo sold and the most common rifling twists are 1:9, 1:8 and 1:7. If 55gr ammo could be spun apart at 3,000fps from any of those barrels, I can't help but think that this wouldn't be the first time I'm hearing someone claim that. I couldn't begin to speculate why you were unable to account for all the rounds you fired; but I am skeptical that 55gr rounds being overspun is the answer.

In short, your initial post about 55gr off-the-shelf spinning apart was bad information (i.e. wrong). Alternatively, some 7-8 random posters who don't know you decided to team up on you for stating something that was objectively, scientifically true. Occam's Razor anyone?

FlyinBryan
September 28, 2011, 05:05 PM
You people think I just fell off the turnip truck.
that is not the truck i think he fell off of.

alright. i got a pm saying im on his ignore list, so he wont see this.

we all know that bullets of around 50g and up are fine for 1/7 barrels. ive never heard a single intance (other than from jeff) of there being a problem with such. its just a rediculous claim, and i think at this point, at least as far as im concerned, just letting him say it maybe???? i dont know. i guess i can see the point to getting accurate info available to people that are asking, but argueing with him seems to just get him crazier, so i will leave it to the authorities that be, and know that whatever is best for the board will be.

the o.p. must be about ready for that truck now trying to keep up with this.

Justin
September 28, 2011, 05:36 PM
You clearly didn't read the source material. Those people would be using high quality ammo while the claim is that cheap ammo with thin jackets are the bullets that might possibly fly apart.

Really? Well, perhaps you ought to define what "cheap ammo with thin jackets" is. Would you care to name some brands?

When I started shooting practical sports that involved the use of rifles, I was on a budget and ran the cheapest stuff I could find. Since then, I've acted as a Range Safety Officer at matches with competitors who were similarly on a budget and running cheap ammo. Not once have I seen the bullets "spin apart" even when shooting the cheapest crap ammo on the market.

If you're willing to list some brand names of ammunition with this problem, I'd be happy to pick some up and go conduct a few live-fire tests to confirm whether or not there's any truth to what you've posted.

I've never missed by 30 feet in my life.

I never accused you of such, so this is completely moot.

If you want to comment on my views please read what they are. I generally shoot 2" groups with heavier bullets. My posts here have been about the "possibility" that out of balance, cheap bullet can fly apart and even quality bullets can be overspun.

Bully for you. Lots of people have great success with heavier bullets, and in many instances they are indeed more accurate than lighter bullets.

However, that doesn't change the fact that your claims of

...buying off the shelf ammo those 55 gr. bullets are liable to rip themselves apart before they reach the target just as others have said. do not match the experience of a lot of shooters here with a lot of rounds put down range.

An "an engineer at AAC who's on the .300 AAC Blackout Dev Team" said over spinning a bullet can cause accuracy issues. Guess who gets my confidence?

And I suppose that there is truth to this. But there's a difference between spinning a bullet at a rate that causes a slight drop in accuracy, and making claims that factory ammunition shot through barrels with fast twist rates with explode before hitting the target.

Furthermore, I would suggest that the accuracy issues resulting from over-spinning a bullet are probably negligible to the vast majority of shooters. (you are, of course, free to post sources that show what sort of accuracy impact results from this situation.)

I never said I had for sure seen bullets fly apart. I said I "may" have seen it.

An unscientific failure to show documentation of the hypothesized occurrence and therefore nothing more than irrelevant conjecture until proven otherwise.

You people can argue this until the cows come home. I've read a lot of expert opinions (people who build rifles and bullets - not shooters who shoot quality ammo) that say different. That's the end of it IMO. Obviously evidence from actual experts has no sway in any discussion on this board so why bother.

Evidence from actual experts is always welcome here. Taking what they've written and twisting it around to fit your preconceived notions is not.

You've presented no compelling or verifiable data, either first hand or second hand, that rifle barrels with fast twist rates cause bullets to "spin apart" in mid-flight, and for the rest of your claims, you do a fairly good job of actually hiding your claims by wrapping them around the truthful words of people who actually are authorities on the subject.

Justin
September 28, 2011, 05:39 PM
Jeff, I'll make this really easy. Answer the following two queries:

1.) If there are commercial brands of .223 Remington or 5.56x45mm ammunition that will regularly "spin apart" when fired from rifles with fast twist rates, please post the brand names and loadings. Furthermore, please post the model of rifle, barrel length and twist rate that is likely to cause this failure. If you can provide evidence of what the odds are of the bullet actually coming apart, that would be tremendously helpful.


2.) If shooting a .223 rifle bullet through a barrel with a twist rate that is faster than optimum causes issues with "wobble" or accuracy in hitting a target, please tell us, what weight of rifle bullet (or brand of ammunition), in what twist rate of barrel, and how significant the expected loss of accuracy actually is in group size rendered in inches.

Art Eatman
September 28, 2011, 07:00 PM
How many times y'alls' mamas done tole y'all to not play with your food?

sirgilligan
September 28, 2011, 07:22 PM
My rifle has 1:7 twist.
Recently zeroed rifle.
Shot 55 grain and 62 grain ammo.
Both maintained the same zero, no difference.

Didn't read all of the posts, too many.

TonyAngel
September 28, 2011, 08:14 PM
Not to throw gas on the fire or anything, I will concede that a defective/cheap bullet may fly apart, no matter the weight, if being fired out of any barrel, but is more likely to do so coming out of a fast twist barrel.

I've noticed references to cheap/thin jacketed bullets flying apart. If this is in reference to defective bullets, then there may just be a big misunderstanding here. If that is not the case, then I don't know which bullets are being referred to.

As I've said, I will never claim to have seen it all, but in my experience, the only bullets that have a chance of coming apart in a fast twist barrel are those of the 35 and 40gr variety (designed and manufactured to have thin jackets) that are intended for use as varminting rounds on small varmints and are also intended to be fired from bolt guns with 1:12 or 1:14 twist .223 barrels. To my knowledge, there aren't any bullets over the weight of 40gr that fit this description.

As a point of fact, the lighter varmint bullets that are in danger of falling apart are certainly not "cheap" in the sense that they are poorly made.

Personally, my general rule of thumb is that I don't buy bullets that are described as having a light construction. Everything else is fair game. Heck, I've sent lots (not thousands, but quite a few) of the bulk box 45gr varmint rounds down range out of my 1:7 and 1:8 twist barrels and never had any problems.

I do want to reiterate that 55gr projectiles are by no means "light" bullets. In fact, those shooting a 1:12 or 1:14 twist barrel would consider them to be their heavy weights.

In any case, we're just going around in circles here. I, like many others, have learned to take what they read on the internet with a grain of salt. What I usually do when I'm not sure about something is to find out for myself and that isn't hard to do with the issue at hand.

Take your rifle out to the range, grab yourself a box or two of 55gr ammo and pop them off at 25 yards or so and see what happens.

Jeff, if you had come in and said that you had an experience wherein you shot off a few rounds of 55gr ammo at a target that is relatively close where missing is a near impossibility and concluded that the bullets grenaded on you due to weird holes in the target or whatever, that would carry a lot more weight than referring to articles and then trying to shoe horn what is said in those articles into fitting what is being discussed.

Justin
September 28, 2011, 08:58 PM
Tony, I agree with what you've said. I think the main issue here is that it seems that Jeff is taking something with a kernel of truth to it, that some very light bullets with thin jackets may come apart in flight if they are pushed too hard, and trying to argue that this is an issue for many commonly available rounds when shot through many commonly available rifles.

There's a world of difference between pushing a 45 grain bullet out of a 22-250 at velocities hard enough to cause the bullet to tear itself apart, and firing 55 grain Winchester Whitebox out of a garden variety AR15.

benzy2
September 28, 2011, 10:20 PM
I suggest we let this die. Both sides have stated their ideas and their support, be that from first hand experience or the ideas of others. If there's anything else to talk about with .22 caliber bullets and twist lets move to it. Seems we've all said are side multiple times now.

OldmanFCSA
September 28, 2011, 10:46 PM
I read thru about 1/2 of the postings here and came to the decision that there is too much bullcrap being stated here.
Ignore the above - do your own research starting with the Hornady manual and others.
There are bullets out there that will blowup coming out the end of the barrel due to overspinning. I personally have had bullets turn into powder coming out of the barrel even in a 1:10 twist gun. The jacket was not torn or twisted, it came apart due to being overspun.
Back to your question - I assume you are reloading - I like the 75 to 80 grain bullets in my 1:7 twist upper, but have shot lighter with good results. The heavier bullets will need to be single loaded as typically they are loaded too long to feed from the magazine. DO NOT DROP into chamber and HIT BOLT RELEASE or you may have a SLAM-FIRE situation.

Good luck - have FUN - BE SAFE !!!

Jeff F
September 28, 2011, 11:06 PM
These guys seem to be laboring under the impression that you would "see" a bullet travelling well in excess of 3000 fps blow up in mid-air or something.

You will, and I have but not out of a .223/5.56. Seen it with a 22-250 and a 220 Swift that were pushed way fast with light pills and with a .224 Weatherby Mag again pushed hard and fast with light pills. Its a trip through the spotting scope seeing the bullets go poof. You can actually see it pretty well.

dubbleA
September 29, 2011, 12:29 AM
This was when Jeff56 believed from his research that with the 55gr bullet shooting 400-500yds wasnt no big deal

From a March 12, 2011 post....

Good grief will you never admit you're wrong because you clearly are. I'll tell you what. I'll bet $100 that I can shoot a group that size with 55 gr. bullets with my rifle at 600 yards. I've never even shot 600 yards but give me some practice time and I will do it. I don't think it will even take that much practice time.



On March 14th he goes on to say this......

Before I go too far how about telling me just how many of these you'll need before you admit that my "entertaining" posts are far more accurate than your trolls? Because I can post thousands of quotes like this from around the net. But of course the world's greatest marksmen all assembled here in this thread and decided that 600 yards was impossible with those puny 55 gr. bullets out of a .223. The only thing wrong with that is it isn't true. Want more proof? Have another quote.

Quote:
"55 gr softpoints - the bulk flavor from MidSouth, will shoot under 12" at 700 yards...with NO sorting, etc...just ran through the Dillon and loaded a bunch of them up."

I'm getting tired of pointing out the obvious here. Yes you're right I haven't shot 600 yards. Congratulations. You can read. Guess what? So can I. And I've read a LOT of quotes from people shooting 55 gr. bullets 600 yards. That was the effective range listed by the military. Now if you were me would you believe you or the military? I don't give a crap about your trued Remington that isn't even shooting true .223's. I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut my Savage will shoot better anyway. But the point here is whether the OP can expect to shoot 600 yards or not with a bolt action .223 using 55 gr. bullets. I have no doubt he'll find out for himself that he can. I'd be shocked if my rifle failed to do well with 55 gr. bullets at that distance because it isn't that much farther than I've been shooting.

So you can toss a dollar in the hat for the entertainment and when I get my chance to shoot 600 yards (which will be soon) I'll drop back by and give you another lesson on ballistics.
__________________




Jeff56 apparently went out and tried to prove his point( from what he researched and read) and found that in the real world, things dont always work out for the best and is now criticzing the 55gr

From 9-27-2011

What did I miss when firing 55 gr. and lighter bullets in a 1:9 twist? The target mostly. That's what "experience" taught me. Then I read the article on 6mbr. Guess what. It backed up exactly what I had already seen at the range. And guess who I trust more than you people? The best I can do at a quarter of a mile with 55 gr. ammo is about a 5"-6" group. With heavier loads (68 - 75 gr.) I can shoot a 2" group. Not always but often enough to know that when it's off it's a wind issue or I've made a mistake shooting. 2" at 440 yards is just fine with me BTW. Yeah I don't know a thing about shooting.






Poor guy cant win for losing...amazing stuff

FlyinBryan
September 29, 2011, 01:13 AM
Man, lots of bad information flying around in here.

no pun intended, right? :D

FlyinBryan
September 29, 2011, 01:25 AM
do you reload jeff?

nevermind this question. just see below

FlyinBryan
September 29, 2011, 01:52 AM
jeff, please take this the right way.

STOP!!!!!

lets start over man. i will be your first friend made here, but you have to stop, and start listening to the people that know what they are talking about, and im not talking about me.

you've gone so nuts you are gonna get banned if something doesnt give.

some of the people here that you are disrespecting terribly are competition shooters that have been on the cutting edge of handloading and shooting forever. some have been shooting, building barrels and wildcat cartridges for decades.

stop trying to teach, and start trying to learn, and i assure you this is all water under the bridge when the sun rises, and i will be you're first legit backer, but you have got to accept that some of these people just know more, some of these mods, some of these admins, and even some of these members are to be learned from, not taught.

ive seen members here, in ar matches i was running here 2+ years ago shoot these groups you would not believe man (see dubble-bubble above)

take it easy man. pm anyone you have really offended and just say "sorry man, i got out of hand"

ive done it. (in the last 24hrs in fact once)

think about it because this has gone completely "young and the restless"

if you chill, there is not a single person in this thread that wont just forget about it, but the guys that know what is what will simply not have bad info flying around these threads and just let it go.

just think about it.

Brian Williams
September 29, 2011, 05:54 AM
I've already had a system administrator call me a liar then refuse to admit it after I PROVED him wrong. I don't see that as calling you a liar, you made a statement so he checked it out and posted the results, those results were in your favor pretty much.
My question is how many targets did you shoot to get the score that you had. I pretty much go by the belief that you shoot the target once for practice and then shoot for a group.

Some times things happen. Have fun and don't get so upset when people do not have access to the great amount of knowledge you have.

You have made a statement that you are one of the best shooters on the planet. So prove it and show us some documented groups and or scores in national matches or competitions.

benzy2
September 29, 2011, 08:58 AM
Jeff, the problem is that most everyone in here has agreed with what you quoted, but not what you've said. Many people have different definitions of accuracy. The guys on 6mmbr see changes of a .1" at 100 yards as a big deal. For them and their shooting type it is. For others, it doesn't mean much. Also, most everyone in here has said that the very thin jacketed bullets will come apart if pushed hard enough, especially the faster the twist.

What isn't agreed with is that a 55gr bullet will come apart fired from a .223 Remington. You did directly state that and people disagreed. I don't think anyone has said that absolute accuracy isn't affected. I think it's been much more that their practical accuracy isn't and that 55gr bullets don't come apart in a 1:9 or a 1:7 twist .223 Remington barrel. You did directly say to watch out for 55gr bullets coming apart. That was the comment that stuck with a lot of people. Had you then said, "nope the 55gr bullets won't come apart in a normal .223 Remington but if you push very light, thin jacketed bullets real hard they can come apart" I think we all would have agreed and moved on. What drives me nuts about this thread is that you don't take anyone else's point the way they are making it and instead twist it to be something different and often much more theoretical. But I'm sure I'm wasting my breath because clearly if I'm not a contributor at 6mmbr (which I am) then my opinion means nothing.

Art Eatman
September 29, 2011, 09:30 AM
benzy2, that's a good closing statement. Thank you.

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