Convincing my Mom that it's okay for me to OC

I've decided that I soon want to join the ranks of open-carriers, simply to make a statement for 2A rights. I am a bit nervous about starting (I compare it to wearing a Speedo, which I never have), but I want to soon, because it's a political cause I actually believe in, and those are few and far between.

Anyway, I broke the news to my mother (I am 23, live with my parents, but will be getting my own place at the end of the month), and she was unsurprisingly less-than-thrilled. Her first reaction, "you'll get arrested!" was easily turned away by explaining that anywhere you can CC in Washington, you can OC as well. However, she still has three big fears:
1) If I CC, I have the element of surprise, and if someone wants to mug me, they'll not be expecting my piece (I tried the "if they mug someone who's OC'ing, they deserve a Darwin Award", but she still thinks its dangerous).
2) If I OC, people will see that I have a gun, and may try to rob my place. My perspective is that if I'm there, I'll have easier access to my gun than they will (easy-access safe). My other perspective is that if I'm not there, and they steal my weapons, then insurance will cover me.
3) If I OC and someone attacks me and I shoot that person, then it might be used by the antis to say I provoked the attack.

Anyway, she still thinks its dangerous and more likely to get me into trouble than help the cause. I'm still planning on starting soon, regardless of what she thinks, but I of course want my Mom to not worry about me. Anyone have any advice on what I can tell her?

I should add: my Mom is pro-gun. Out of the three of us (my Mom, my Dad, and I) my mother is usually the best shot with a caliber she can control. She owns her own Ruger SP101 that we bought her for her birthday, and she knows that I CC, and is fine with it.

Just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth (zero). Why announce yourself as a target if something did happen? You lose the advantage of surprise, you make yourself a target, and it just ticks people off (even though its legal). If I'm carrying, I'd rather nobody knows it unless I have to use it. It makes life smoother. Besides, ya shouldn't upset your Momma!

Agrees with Hossfly68 ^

As with every time OC comes up, care to cite an instance of an open carrier being blitzed/targeted in some kind of attack?

Won't hold my breath.

For (1), try to find some stories about an OCer being targeted by a violent criminal because they're visibly armed. I'll wait, you might be able to find a few, but not as many as those who oppose OC would want you to believe are out there.

For (2), a good mounted safe will do wonders to protect any firearms collection you may have from all but the most determined and well-prepared thieves. On top of that, a well thought out home defense plan to include not having vehicles parked in an everyday standard place in your driveway, lights and televisions on timers, an alarm system among other things will also deter all but the most determined thieves from trying to rob you while you're not home. Smart thieves (they do exist) will likely rather not bother you while you're home if they know you go armed, because they don't want to get shot just as much as we don't. Worst case you do get robbed and have a collection stolen, make sure your home owners insurance will cover the cost.

For (3), if you do have to go through the worst case scenario and end up being brought up on charges, you have more things to worry about than the manner in which you carry your firearm, and should be consulting a good criminal defense attorney anyways, who should have some sort of plan for making your mode of carry as much of a non-issue as possible.

Edit: For (3) also, hardcore antis will use even the most textbook self-defense shootings against the 2a community, because that's what they do. Doesn't matter whether the victim was concealing or carrying openly.

Ask your mother why uniformed police open carry.
Next ask her when was the last time she heard of a LEO getting robbed while on duty. :-)

For (1), try to find some stories about an OCer being targeted by a violent criminal because they're visibly armed. I'll wait, you might be able to find a few, but not as many as those who oppose OC would want you to believe are out there.

That's the problem. She remembers that a friend of hers when she was younger had a father that had guns, and some hotshots wanted to steal said guns. The friend was awake when they were in the house, went in to investigate, and was shot and killed.

For (2), a good mounted safe will do wonders to protect any firearms collection you may have from all but the most determined and well-prepared thieves. On top of that, a well thought out home defense plan to include not having vehicles parked in an everyday standard place in your driveway, lights and televisions on timers, an alarm system among other things will also deter all but the most determined thieves from trying to rob you while you're not home. Smart thieves (they do exist) will likely rather not bother you while you're home if they know you go armed, because they don't want to get shot just as much as we don't. Worst case you do get robbed and have a collection stolen, make sure your home owners insurance will cover the cost.

It's a bit different for me - I'll be living on a 3rd floor condo with multiple locks between my door and the outside. So that means less likely that people will randomly break into my house, but if I'm targeted, it's a different story.

For (3), if you do have to go through the worst case scenario and end up being brought up on charges, you have more things to worry about than the manner in which you carry your firearm, and should be consulting a good criminal defense attorney anyways, who should have some sort of plan for making your mode of carry as much of a non-issue as possible.

Edit: For (3) also, hardcore antis will use even the most textbook self-defense shootings against the 2a community, because that's what they do. Doesn't matter whether the victim was concealing or carrying openly.

I was more concerned with the later, since my carrying would be for the purpose of raising 2A awareness.

Ask your mother why uniformed police open carry.
Next ask her when was the last time she heard of a LEO getting robbed while on duty. :-)

Good advice.

simply to make a statement for 2A rights

Don't see that with OC - what I see are video game commandos who want to try and shove it into folks' face as a blatant act that makes them uneasy - serving no good purpose

Not everything that is legal is also logical

Go to the Washington sub-forum at opencarry.org. Find an OC lunch or dinner in your area. Attend, and bring your mom. Perhaps a chance to talk with folks who have been OC'ing for a while might help her. Oh, just tell her you're taking her out to eat.

I think I should probably point out that I'm not opposed to open carry. I just see that it makes things smoother if people are ignorant of my situation.

Go to the Washington sub-forum at opencarry.org. Find an OC lunch or dinner in your area. Attend, and bring your mom. Perhaps a chance to talk with folks who have been OC'ing for a while might help her. Oh, just tell her you're taking her out to eat.
+1 for this. Great forum over there.

Maybe a compromise is in order. There may be situations where CC is preferable to OC for you and vice-versa. You can be a patriot without waving a flag all the time.

You can be a patriot without waving a flag all the time.

Hey, that's a good little quote! I think I'll use it! :)

I agree with Hossfly68.

I support you on this. If only my Mom didn't have a freak out when I came out as a gun nut.

I got my parents into guns. They weren't antis, but weren't (and still aren't) nuts like I am. I've been into guns as long as I can remember, and my parents know that. My mom's got stories from when I was a toddler (at church, of all places) and I hadn't been taught about guns yet, but we were playing games with guns made out of Legos. So yeah...they weren't at all surprised when I got my CWP and bought a pistol.

You're 23. Do you're research, check you're options, then get some quality training, get a CCW and don't worry about it. In any crowd a gun draws attention, some good some bad, by the time you figure out which type it is it may be too late. Keep a low profile. Then you get to decide if you participate or just walk away, keep all your options open.

If everyone oc then no one would have issues with it, also the people who are harping on the oc idea are just people who fear others with guns that they cant directly control, personally i say carry one openly and keep one extra concealed just to throw em off.

I open carry all the time in Washington. There are no real issues in Washington with open carrying. As was suggested, check out the Washington subforum of opencarry.org. I am a member there. Our get togethers are great!

As far as making you a target, read printed page 12 of this document (electronic page 20):
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdf

It makes absolutely no sense for a criminal to attack Joe Citizen who is known/seen to be armed. It is much easier for them to wait two minutes for Joe Citizen who is armed to leave, or to go down the street 1 block to the next convenience store where Joe Citizen with a gun is not there. When 99.5% of the population does not visibly carry a firearm, why in the world would any criminal pick the .5% that does as a target?

Criminals have 3 main goals: 1. To get what they want. 2. To get what they want with the minimal amount of effort. 3. To get what they want without getting caught.

Attacking an armed citizen greatly reduces the chances of any of those three goals from being accomplished. Mom, and the concealed carry only crowd, says you give up the element of surprise. But you gain the element of deterrence. The MAJORITY of criminals say they will be deterred by a known firearm. Why? Because there is absolutely NO REASON whatsoever for them to attack Joe Citizen who they know has the ability to kill them.

Relying upon the element of surprise, you are betting the you will be able to get your gun out of concealment and effectively fire at the criminal before they notice you doing so. It's like playing wild west quick draw. Is that what you really want to hope for? ESPECIALLY since you will be drawing your firearm in response to an attack that has already begun?

Why would I take the chance to put my family through the trauma of the attack, seeing me shoot at someone, possibly killing them, and then the expense and process of a possible court case, either criminal or civil? With open carry, I have a CHANCE of deterring the attack from ever happening. With concealed carry, I have ZERO chance of deterring the attack; concealed carry only allows me to defend my family AFTER the attack has already happened, which means the criminal ALREADY has gained the upper hand. So, why would I willingly give up the deterrence factor?

In Washington state, people don't go screaming in terror at the sight of a gun. The majority of people who talk to me about my gun are supportive of it. The majority of people who make negative comments about my gun are concealed carry only snobs. There is a very small minority that will call the cops, and in most places in WA the LE agencies know that open carry is perfectly legal and won't bother you. I've had my one negative encounter with a LEO due to a man with a gun call. After about 5 minutes of harassment, I simply called his bluff and told him to write me a ticket for whatever law he thought I was violating and I would meet him again in court. That was the end of it. He didn't write a ticket because he knew he had nothing. The restaurant where it happened (at dinner time) told me they supported my right to carry a firearm and to please come back, with my friends, family and firearms, they did not call the police, some other customer did.

If you want to open carry, go for it. I would get your CPL, if you don't have it, so that you can carry loaded in your vehicle and conceal when you want to. Again, opencarry.org is a great place! Tell them NavyLCDR sent you!

Wow, great post Navy. I have visited that site, but briefly read it and haven't joined yet. I bookmarked that link, and those facts make sense. Then again, there are people who don't make sense...let me see if I can find it. Unfortunately, the official Darwin Award for this seems to be screwed up, but I found it quoted in another thread here:

"A man tried to commit a robbery in Renton, WA. This was probably his first attempt, as suggested by the fact that he had no previous record of violent crime, and by his terminally stupid choices as listed below:

1. The target was H&J Leather & Firearms, a gun shop.

2. The shop was full of customers, in a state where a substantial portion of the adult population is licensed to carry concealed handguns in public places.

3. To enter the shop, he had to step around a marked Police patrol car parked at the front door.

4. An officer in uniform was standing next to the counter, having coffee before reporting to duty.

Upon seeing the officer, the would-be robber announced a holdup and fired a few wild shots. The officer and a clerk promptly returned fire, removing him from the gene pool. Several other customers also drew their guns, but didn't fire. No one else was hurt."

Unfortunately, the official Darwin Award for this seems to be screwed up, but I found it quoted in another thread here

There is a Snopes entry for it.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/dumdum/gunshop.asp

To answer the OP, go and OC. Take small steps, go to your local stores first. You'll gain more confidence the more you do it. I am very social when I OC, smile a lot, be courteous. Most people probably think I'm a cop b/c I'm never asked about my gun. Make sure you have a good retention holster and learn how to position yourself when in line so your gun is away from people.

After that, then go out together while you OC. She'll have confidence seeing how you carry yourself while OC. I go visit my parents who in CA so I obviously don't carry in CA. So when my mom comes and visits me, she freaked out. Keep in mind, I'm 34 yrs old, married, a state employee, and I'm a FFL dealer. I told it it's okay, I do this all the time and act like it's not a big deal. She never brings it up or worries about it anymore...so she says. Mom will be moms.

"Making a statement about 2A rights" is not a good reason for OC. Quite the contrary -- it will have the opposite effect on most people's view of gun owners. Being deliberately provocative is not the way to make friends.

Obviously CC gives you tactical advantages that you lose with OC. Think again about what you're trying to do, and listen to your mother.

The OP is 23. I am 63.

When I was 23 I thought I knew it all. One thing I certainly didn't know was how to turn aside wrath -- someone else's or my own. If someone wanted a fight I was more than ready to mix it up with 'em. I lacked the wisdom to avoid being goaded.

And if I wanted to do something that my folks advised against doing, I had no shortage of rationalizations for doing it anyway. I'm lucky to still be alive today, considering what a schmuck I was.

But one way I've stayed alive, even though I've walked some mean streets, has been to keep 'em guessing. As in poker, let 'em wonder what you might be holding...

From the perspective of my 6 decades on the planet, I don't know why someone would want to surrender the element of surprise (not to mention all the advantages of keeping a low profile and not putting your business in the street) for the sake of making a political statement.

And if one of your rationalizations is that cops OC, then maybe you should become a cop. I knew a guy who worked in a gun store and loved guns so much that he became a cop and [EDIT: although that might not have been the best or most idealistic reason to become a cop] he was a darn good one.

Somehow, the OP's questions remind me of a verse from a Johnny Cash song:

He laughed and kissed his mom
And said your Billy Joe's a man
I can shoot as quick and straight as anybody can
But I wouldn't shoot without a cause
I'd gun nobody down
But she cried again as he rode away

Don't take your guns to town, Son
Leave your guns at home, Bill
Don't take your guns to town

Wow, great post Navy.

Agreed. That is good stuff NavyLCDR.

As in poker, let 'em wonder what you might be holding...


Why would you want to gamble at all?

Being an open carry warrior is not for everyone. Perhaps waiting until you move out is the better option. This way your mom will not really have any right to say anything. When I was younger someone heard I was into guns and broke into my home looking for them, but that is another story for another thread. Either way why push the issue with your parents when you can avoid it in a month?

She`s your mother .....she`s concerned about you.

Your 23 ..........this is not a committee vote. Man up. :)

Here is a good discussion of openly carrying:

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

Navy NAILED IT.

BOOOOO to those telling this 23 year old MAN to listen to his mother, LOL.

If you have to have your mother's permission to open carry, you're not ready

Unfortunately, the official Darwin Award for this seems to be screwed up, but I found it quoted in another thread here
There is a Snopes entry for it.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/dumdum/gunshop.asp

It actually backed up the story, which surprised me - I didn't think anyone was that dumb!

Personally, I'd weigh the pros/cons of each. OC and CC have benefits and drawbacks. How likely is it that you'll end up in a situation, based on where you live? Will the extra time it takes to get a gun out of CC plus the deterrent effect outweigh the attention from the public OC gets you? I don't know - I live in TX, not WA, but I've never seen someone OC in my town. My area is very safe, so I don't CC or OC... ah suburbia, where I stand as much chance of getting mugged as being attacked by a polar bear.

Your mother is your mother. Mothers worry. It's what we do well. :D

My husband just turned 40. His mother still bugs him about riding a motorcycle "because it's dangerous!"

If you want to OC, OC, but do it wisely.

If you don't want your mom to bug you about it, don't mention it to her again.

Quite the contrary -- it will have the opposite effect on most people's view of gun owners. Being deliberately provocative is not the way to make friends.

So, you are speaking from experience as a person who does/has open carried? I've experienced just the opposite... everything from an 18 year old girl asking about the gun and wishing that she did not have to wait to 21 to be able to protect herself, to people askng about it in fast food places/convenience stores and grocery stores who leave with a positive image and education about carrying a gun, to simple thumbs up from people I pass in parking lots.

As I stated earlier, most of my negative comments have come from "pro-2a" concealed carry only snobs looking down their nose at me. I was in Jack in the Box and a guy looked down his nose at me. He said, "I carry mine concealed." (Nasty tone of voice). I replied, "You are doing it very well." He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "I know you have a gun." I was in Kentucky Fried Chicken (starting to see a pattern here?) when a guy told me I should cover my gun with my jacket because it might scare people who didn't know it was illegal, even though he was the only one in the place who seemed to even notice the gun, let alone show concern about it.

My 15 year old step-daughter says, "Dad, tell them that you have no reason to hide your gun because you aren't a criminal." I had a girlfriend that liked to say, "I would rather be with a man that carries a gun on his belt for protection then one who carries a condom in his wallet for protection."

I say live and let live, if you want to concealed carry, that's fine. If you have your own reasons for doing so, that's fine. What I take issue with is people who state theories as fact without any evidence or statistical history to back up their theories.

@ Danb1215

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx_YUO4SzcY&feature=related

This discussion.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=573860

Anything else you need Neighbor? was just a Google search away. :D

Ringo, I am not quick to get into fights. I was in middle school, but now I am more the E&E type. I carry for when that fails.

Mist, I said it in the OP - I'll carry regardless of what my mother thinks, but I also want my mother to be okay with it.

As to the element of surprise...I very much agree with the idea that I'd rather deter an attack than be able to respond to one with the element of surprise.

Youngda, thanks for backing me up, although my parents still have some say in what I do until I am able to move out next month. Oh, that's going to be an interesting experience.

You are your own person, but also consider the ramifications of your decisions. My relationship with my family IS my life. If I were to alienate myself from them I would no longer have need of a gun to defend myself, as I wouldn't even care to go on.

Try to convince your mother, but be reasonable too. It sounds like she's not anti-gun, or even anti-carry, just anti open carry. If it keeps the peace, you might just CC - at least when she'll be around.

I'm a bit lucky in that my family isn't anti at all. They're a bit uneasy around handguns, but just because they are unfamiliar with them (they are mostly into guns from a hunting perspective). The only hurdle I had to overcome was when they found out that my carry-weapon has no safety.

Hej Skribs! I have been OC in WA state for over 40 years. (east side and west side of the mountains)

What Navy says is correct. Get your CPL so you do not have to unload when you get in a vehicle. Other than that, you should be fine.

Personally, I have had only one encounter with the police, it lasted a whole two words, one from him, one word response from me. Oh yes, I did have one other encounter, the "local" (20 miles) CoP asked me if I was going to join their gun club.

I have also had one time where my OC came into play in a bad situation. The young man that was yelling and screaming at me that he was going to beat me up, open the door of my car and was getting ready to try drag me out so we could fight (I am not a fighter, I am an old man) took one look at my holster and decided he had other things to do. The gun never left the holster.

You cannot get cited for "display" if the gun never leaves the holster.

If you act no differently than if you are wearing a hat, or carrying a cell phone, most people do not even notice. The one thing you do want is a retention holster so your carry does not fall out. IMHO. we carry to prevent crime, not so we can shoot someone. Criminals do not like to deal with those that can defend themselves and will look for easier victims elsewhere and not bother the OCer

Here is my personal opinion on open carry. I find that most of the people that do it are just trying to make a statement. Protests and statements almost never accomplish anything but general discord or gaining some negative attention.

When I am in public where I want to carry a firearm, I carry it concealed because I don't want anyone to know that I am armed. When I go hunting I carry OC because it is more comfortable and convenient.

You can do what you want, but I personally feel it is unwise to draw attention to yourself when you are armed.

Longday, that is actually the main purpose of OC for me, along with deterrence. If protests and statements never made any difference, Rosa Parks wouldn't be a hero.

And for everyone suggesting I get my CPL, I already have it! Got it before I bought my first gun.

@ Danb1215

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx_YU...eature=related

This discussion.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=573860

Anything else you need Neighbor? was just a Google search away.

First, is there any evidence that he was attacked because of his gun? Second, at that time, open carry was the only legal way to carry a gun in Wisconsin, so would it be better to be unarmed? Third, would concealed carry have changed anything in that incident? The victim is already facing an armed robber, what does the victim with the concealed carry gun do, try to play Wild Bill and quick draw on the armed criminal?

Finally:
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

Now the score is tied.

Obviously CC gives you tactical advantages that you lose with OC. Think again about what you're trying to do, and listen to your mother.

Its either suprise the criminal who has already started the attack or deter that criminal from attacking you completely.

Most of the argument I have heard against OC are based on fear. The carrier is afraid of an official confrontation (in WA and ID that is rare, but does happen), they "don't want to disturb other people", and Probably tend to be private people (What is my business, is mine alone). If you are nervous about OC, don't, that is fine...but don't make up stories and fantasies to try justify not doing so.

I am a very private person myself, but I also think a lot of people need to be educated, OC is perfectly legal, and if that bothers you, why does it not bother you that the police OC all the time? Another good reason has been stated already: it is more comfortable, by far, especially in summer.

I also personally convinced that an OC arm is a deterant to crime. Most criminals are just wimpy bullies, and like all wimpy bullies they do not want to have done to them, what they would do to you. They will generally go look for easy pickings when they see you have a means available to resist.

I had Polio when I was young, and I have recovered better than most, (I can walk now) but even then, I completed my first jumping jack execise when I was in grade 12. I know what it is like to not be able to do what others can with easy...you think that might make me a target?...not when they can see my holstered sidearm and know I can resist.

IMO It doesn't matter if you OC or CC just as long as you carry, you never know when you could be looking down the barrel at an armed robber and and the eternal question arises "Where's my gun?" I know the chances of ever having to bring your firearm into battery in our mundane civilian lives are actually slim but the threat is there ( drawing from own personal experience ). So do yourself, your family and the teenage mommy standing in line behind you at the local pizza shop a favor and practice relentlessly, slam home a magazine chamber a round and drop that 500 dollar insurance policy in your waistband. Whether you let your shirt cover the grips or not is your choice just as long as it's there.

+1 for Rinoloevio.
Reading between the lines in your OP, it really seems that you're not ready to carry. Find a very qualified instructor for CC first. Go though the course and really pay attention to the psychological part of it, and I'm hoping your instructor would do that.

Carrying open or concealed means the very first confrontational decison you make will determine where you spend the rest of your life. This is far too important to be getting all of your advice or direction on a firearms forum.

Was going to post this earlier, but I forgot - Ringo, it's eerie that you mention Johnny Cash. Most of my coworkers call me that (even though I have no idea who he is). I think its because I always wear black.

Get a black holster, no-one will notice if you wear all black.

Breathe NavyLCDR, He asked for one example... One was easily in reach, both in the news and the discussion on our own board. I OC myself when I'm at home, in my car... Or outside of Portland and the metro area where it's not a hassle.

The score is hardly even, with the wealth of prevented crime by OC'ers... ONE example of a situation where it drew attention to himself hardly puts the one example I put forth "ahead" by any rationale.

ZFK, that is what my Dad suggested - that I take a class first. I will probably do that. However, I do CC all the time, and I have had a couple of times where flags start going off in my mind, but not quite alarm bells. While "I'm armed" was in the back of my mind in case things got hairy, I wasn't reacting rashly.

Hermann, I lol'd. Especially because I have the all-black variant. I'm not goth or emo or anything, I just feel most comfortable with the color black.

Breathe NavyLCDR, He asked for one example... One was easily in reach, both in the news and the discussion on our own board. I OC myself when I'm at home, in my car... Or outside of Portland and the metro area where it's not a hassle.

The score is hardly even, with the wealth of prevented crime by OC'ers... ONE example of a situation where it drew attention to himself hardly puts the one example I put forth "ahead" by any rationale.

:D

I'll even add this one:
http://www.usacarry.com/open-carrier-arrested-after-scuffle/

Just a thought for those in the thread who infer that OC is simply an attempt to be provocative.

What about those of us who have no intentions of purchasing a permission slip for an enumerated right and happen to not live in a Constitutional carry state? Or those of us, who for whatever reason do not yet qualify for said permission slip?

Are we being provocative, or do we OC for the same reason many people CC, for personal protection for ourselves and loved ones? I can't speak for everyone, but personally, I OC for the latter.

To those who claim OC calls attention to yourself, have you ever OC'd? I find that when I am out and about, most people are too oblivious to their surroundings to even notice that I'm carrying a full-size handgun on my hip. Generally, the only people who notice are children who happen to be at eye level with my hip.

Skribs:
Ringo, I am not quick to get into fights. I was in middle school, but now I am more the E&E type. I carry for when that fails.

'Sorry, Skribs, but it appears to me that you have only thought this through to the point of rationalizing what you have already made up your mind to do.

You probably don't walk down any really mean streets. OC can be fine, and can be a fine deterrent, when the areas you frequent are populated largely by civilized, polite people.

But there are parts of most American cities where you will routinely encounter folks who, all day long, are preoccupied with establishing or keeping their place in the pecking order, and who will see a challenge in something as simple as a look, or the way you walk down "their" street. And these are folks who would have no interest in bothering you if you were just another dork and didn't draw attention to yourself.

I grew up in a neighborhood where the graffiti announced whose "turf" it was and admonished "No bopping allowed". And, since then, I've had to operate in many neighborhoods just like that, and worse.

In such situations, you have far more options if you can blend in, be unobtrusive, stay under the radar and not get anybody's hackles up.

You can think of yourself as an "E&E type", but OC will severely limit your E&E options, if not take them off the table altogether. It all but ensures that E&E, or any other tactic short of gunplay, will fail; you will be challenged, tested and pushed into gunplay.

On those mean streets, OC doesn't say "Leave me alone"; it says, "Don't permit me to pass unchallenged".

I know that none of this is going to convince you, especially since you are getting some very unwise advice from others here (who are, like you, desperately reaching for rationalizations). But trust me on this, you will always be far better served by CAMOUFLAGE & STEALTH.

That may very well apply in those mean streets, but I don't frequent those areas, and I can always CC if I'm in one of those areas where I think OC is more likely to lead to someone accosting me.

I wouldn't say that we're grasping for rationalizations, though. Technically, anything used to explain something can be called a "rationalization", but deterrence is a very valid point. I know if I was prowling the streets and I see two people - one who has a gun on his hip and one who doesn't, I would be more likely to mug the person who doesn't. Not that I would, but if I put myself in that situation, then that's what I'd do.

Skribs,

You've already decided to OC. Decision is made.
I love and respect my Mother however she is not on my radar regarding personal carry/purchase decisions. Take "Mommy" out of the equation, be a full grown man, standing on your hind legs and remember, when you bouce these kinds-of ideas off of her, she changed your diapers and remembers you as that baby-boy she bore and nurtured, first.
Doing what you decide to do and love/respect for your Mom are not mutually exclusive.
You show no disrespect if you do not put yourself in the adversarial position by bringing it up in the first place. I just show-up at my folks, as expected, cc, oc, it's not a bone of contention because it's a done deal when I visit.

Mike

Well, Skribs, I can see that any attempt by me, or the few other voices of reason here, to make you reconsider your decision about OC constitutes an exercise in futility, especially when you are getting so much unwise advice here supporting your decision.

I guess I will never be as wise as a 23 yr. old whose mind is made up. If even your own mother (who is not anti-gun) can't sway you, how can a faceless voice on an internet forum do so (especially some hairbag old enough to be your grandfather)?

So, go do what you're gonna do, and good luck to you. I give up. I won't bother you about this again. I hope you survive and don't cause any needless harm.

I am compelled to comment on this, however:
Was going to post this earlier, but I forgot - Ringo, it's eerie that you mention Johnny Cash. Most of my coworkers call me that (even though I have no idea who he is). I think its because I always wear black.

You have no idea who Johnny Cash was! Incredible!

'Ever see a scene like this in an old war movie?
Let's say you were trying to get back inside the wire of an American position in the dark, and you were suspected of being a hostile who had learned to speak English with an American accent, and you were asked a question about Johnny Cash, and you didn't have a clue who Johnny Cash was...what do you reckon would happen to you?

I don't like open carry and never have.

There are too many jerks that love to demonstrate they have a weapon for sheer intimidation purposes (ever seen the Black Panthers in action?). In fact, while I have only met two people that open carry, they did seem very much like the jerk type that didn't just happen to open carry, but seemed to do so expressly so everyone knew to respect them and both had very adversarial attitudes IMO. *rolleyes*

It also makes some people uncomfortable, and while that is their problem, that does nothing to help gun advocacy to constantly throw it in their face with a big .454 Casul dangling inches away from some protective parent's five year old son in the bleachers at a school game. They get pissed, and guess what, their vote come election time counts just as much as mine or yours.

The beauty of concealed carry is that:
1) Eliminates the jerk factor
2) Allows for the element of surprise
3) Deters criminals as they never know which civilians are or are not armed
4) Doesn't create a scene or bother sensitive types, out of sight is out of mind.

Skribs, your Mom can't be more right. What are you going to do when a tuff guy confronts you and tells you that he's going to take your gun away from you; dancing ain't an option buddy and using the gun ain't either but I bet you are thinking that you can, don't. It is obvious that you have the age but not the maturity to own a gun. Take the money for the gun and spend it on some S/D classes, you'll be safer, wiser and will add a few more years to your poor mothers life. When you old and a geezer like me you can thank me for the advice but I will be dead by then, hopefully you won't.

Ok, OP.....so I'm going to give you just a part of soemthing my Dad wrote quite a few years ago. I'll cut out all of the procedure and leave just the part that I think you really should read.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Requirements for a CC Permit by Sheriff Departments, City Police and States vary widely and wildly. Wildly because in some venues there seems to be little connection between self defence and a field hunting course to obtain a CC.
In the field, never carry a rifle with a chambered round. Always keep the muzzle down. Never crawl through a fence with your rifle. Congratulations. You passed.

Responsibility for being fully qualified to obtain a permit and carry a sidearm rests solely with you, the applicant. You are responsible for the depth and pertinence of the course, after all, the choice of a teaching methodolgy is something upon which you must decide. Its not only your right, but its more importanly your duty to seek the proper teacher and course methodlogy to ensure your own safety both in real life and in the courts should that be your misfortune. Selecting the right course is the first and probably most important step you'll take in your quest for a CC Permit.

There are many approaches to teaching self defence employing the use of a firearm, be it pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle. There are most certainly more than one good approach, but the end result should always be the same. A knowlegeable, competent and aware CC candidate, well schooled in every aspect of firearm and personal responsibility. You should most certainly interview your prospective teacher as if he/she were a job applicant. Interviewing a self defence instructor is by far more important than interviewing a salesman, waitress or a structural engineer. Upon that interview and acceptance of an instructor will potentially hang the rest of your life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Cut out about 2/3rds of it here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

By this time we've already covered (with the applicant) why the applicant should avail him/herself of every opportunity to avoid the confrontation. Walking, talking, running away (if practicable), being constantly aware of surroundings, keeping clear of unusual secluded areas and late night individuals in low light, little trafficked areas and doing anything within reason to avoid drawing their firearm.

The applicant is urged to never discuss the firearm, show the firearm, make carrying obvious or the fact that they are indeed carrying. Not friends, not family (if applicable), not fellow workers, not even your Priest, Pastor or Rabbi. Nobody.

Its very important that the applicant learn to assume the weight of the firearm as natural, something not noticed, not consciously aware of the weight or the fact that its even there. Its equally importatnt to not be suspicious of every stranger, every situation of daily life, every sudden noise, every quick movement around you. The firearm should simply be another part of your body, not a conscious part but one to be called upon in the gravest extreme.

A successful applicant will not be constantly watching and waiting, expecting the worst. Carrying in itself typically makes the carrier more relaxed, more secure feeling, more responsible and far less likely to react violently or overreact.
Regular range time is strongly encouraged.

There are far more aspects to my course than can easily be presented here considering the typist has the will of a youngster and the fingers of an OldGuy. Push, step back, brace and draw etc. Many little and bigger things are presented in the course of the live classes. Bear in mind that this is not a Practical Pistol course but a base for self defense shooting. Other instructors may broaden the base of their courses and expand into related shooting excercises and events.
Its only important to remember that the final judge of the prospective course is you, the applicant. The responsibility for everything that occurs after the issuing of your CC with your firearm is your responsibilty, and yours alone. There will be no instructor to stand by your side in a courtroom testifying as to the validity of the shoot. No instructor should ever present scenarios to a student. Its not remotely possible to present them all and the student's first confromtation would most likely be something never considered. Don't dwell on "what if"s. Ayoob's books present rational confrontation responses. I can only answer what I might do, not what the candidate should do.
Choose your teacher carefully and remember that if something doesn't sound reasonable and rational, it probably isnt.

Shoot straight, think carefully as quickly as you can and..........
....stay low.

zfk55/sr

Skribs, your Mom can't be more right. What are you going to do when a tuff guy confronts you and tells you that he's going to take your gun away from you

...honestly now. That is pretty ridiculous.



I've OCed pretty much everyday for 10 years and have had maybe a dozen or so people notice.

CC vs. OC....

Pro's and cons either way. I live in a state that allows both, but chose to CC. Not surprised when I see someone OC every now and again, but I do take a second look.

any advice on what I can tell her?

While you live under her roof, abide by her wishes.

When you're on your own, tell her that you're and adult and need to make your own decisions.

1) Eliminates the jerk factor
2) Allows for the element of surprise
3) Deters criminals as they never know which civilians are or are not armed
4) Doesn't create a scene or bother sensitive types, out of sight is out of mind.

1. People will be jerks whether they have a gun open on their hip or not.
2. Element AFTER they have already started an attack that you will actually have to use it.
3. You look unarmed, criminals like unarmed targets, what determent exsists when you carry? That you may or may not be armed? Open carry shows that you are armed and they will just choose another target.
4. Most people don't notice, if they do then they just see you conducting whatever business with a gun. I've only open carried 3 times and each time I watched people, I've only seen two people notice and they didn't say anything or look scared. When I was waiting in line to check out, a kid walked about 2 feet away from me and was just above eye level with my gun and he didn't even look at it. People tend to avoid looking at other people.

Post to Sam Cade;

Sorry partner, but most people are not surrounded by Amish but rather live were there are some pretty rough characters that will take a dare and back it up. I ask you if affronted by a tuffy what would be your course of action?

My observation is that open carry requires a very high-level of situational awareness - not only in maintaining security and safety of the firearm; but also in observing how the presence of the firearm may be affecting your interactions with other people. Something as simple as "Excuse me" and pushing past someone on a sidewalk has a few more elements involved when open-carrying: Do they perceive me as a threat because of the gun? Can I secure the gun if someone tries to grab it?

Personally, I wouldn't want to open carry because I don't want to process the extra issues on top of the normal concerns for safety and security; but if you are going to do it; understand that you need to be even more aware of your surroundings.

Post to Sam Cade;
Sorry partner, but most people are not surrounded by Amish but rather live were there are some pretty rough characters that will take a dare and back it up.
I do most of my work in Louisville and Nashville. Not the nice parts usually.





I ask you if affronted by a tuffy what would be your course of action?

That is a question whose answer entirely situational.
The correct response to a valid physical threat does not depend on whether or not I have my sport coat on.

1. People will be jerks whether they have a gun open on their hip or not.
2. Element AFTER they have already started an attack that you will actually have to use it.
3. You look unarmed, criminals like unarmed targets, what determent exsists when you carry? That you may or may not be armed? Open carry shows that you are armed and they will just choose another target.
4. Most people don't notice, if they do then they just see you conducting whatever business with a gun. I've only open carried 3 times and each time I watched people, I've only seen two people notice and they didn't say anything or look scared. When I was waiting in line to check out, a kid walked about 2 feet away from me and was just above eye level with my gun and he didn't even look at it. People tend to avoid looking at other people.
1) Of course people can be jerks. Its in the context of the previous statement; jerks that use open carry as a way to be "the big man" and intimidate people intentionally. That is why I mentioned the Black Panthers, as I've seen these guys in person before and the only reason they are open carrying is to be intimidating and you can see it in their posture and mannerisms. You don't get that with good concealed carry.

2) Better than no element, and with concealed carry you have the option to show that you have a weapon or not. You can comply and just give your wallet and watch up if you and a group are held up at a convenience store. If it escalates further, then at some point you can make a decision to engage or not. With open carry, such an option does not exist. If you didn't have the element of surprise, you may now have also just lost a $500 weapon that has now entered the black market and will be sold to some other thug after scratching off the serial number.

3) The deterrent as I mentioned is for society at large. When the people that carry are all concealed carrying, as almost everyone does, the criminals do not know who is and is not armed. And if you were to jump into a convenience store with a shotgun and a mask on, and you see some guy in line with a big old black gun contrasted mightily against light jeans and a white shirt, who is the first person you are going after?

4) If you don't think that people notice when you're walking around with a gun... you really shouldn't be open carrying, as that demonstrates a keen lack of awareness of one's surroundings. Not only is it noticed, but some people even call the police, as the average soccer mom may not even realize that is legal and just slink off frightened dialing 911. In my case it would be "some white skinhead just barged in with a gun, please send help!" Even just walking down a busy street, chances are good that at some point an LEO is going to question you.

Legally, I can walk around with a t-shirt with something very offensive against Christianity written on it and give everyone I meet the finger, but that doesn't necessarily mean its a great idea, heh. Concealed carry is just more socially friendly IMO.

Ok, OP.....so I'm going to give you just a part of soemthing my Dad wrote quite a few years ago. I'll cut out all of the procedure and leave just the part that I think you really should read.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Requirements for a CC Permit by Sheriff Departments, City Police and States vary widely and wildly. Wildly because in some venues there seems to be little connection between self defence and a field hunting course to obtain a CC.
In the field, never carry a rifle with a chambered round. Always keep the muzzle down. Never crawl through a fence with your rifle. Congratulations. You passed.

Responsibility for being fully qualified to obtain a permit and carry a sidearm rests solely with you, the applicant. You are responsible for the depth and pertinence of the course, after all, the choice of a teaching methodolgy is something upon which you must decide. Its not only your right, but its more importanly your duty to seek the proper teacher and course methodlogy to ensure your own safety both in real life and in the courts should that be your misfortune. Selecting the right course is the first and probably most important step you'll take in your quest for a CC Permit.

There are many approaches to teaching self defence employing the use of a firearm, be it pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle. There are most certainly more than one good approach, but the end result should always be the same. A knowlegeable, competent and aware CC candidate, well schooled in every aspect of firearm and personal responsibility. You should most certainly interview your prospective teacher as if he/she were a job applicant. Interviewing a self defence instructor is by far more important than interviewing a salesman, waitress or a structural engineer. Upon that interview and acceptance of an instructor will potentially hang the rest of your life.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Cut out about 2/3rds of it here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

By this time we've already covered (with the applicant) why the applicant should avail him/herself of every opportunity to avoid the confrontation. Walking, talking, running away (if practicable), being constantly aware of surroundings, keeping clear of unusual secluded areas and late night individuals in low light, little trafficked areas and doing anything within reason to avoid drawing their firearm.

The applicant is urged to never discuss the firearm, show the firearm, make carrying obvious or the fact that they are indeed carrying. Not friends, not family (if applicable), not fellow workers, not even your Priest, Pastor or Rabbi. Nobody.

Its very important that the applicant learn to assume the weight of the firearm as natural, something not noticed, not consciously aware of the weight or the fact that its even there. Its equally importatnt to not be suspicious of every stranger, every situation of daily life, every sudden noise, every quick movement around you. The firearm should simply be another part of your body, not a conscious part but one to be called upon in the gravest extreme.

A successful applicant will not be constantly watching and waiting, expecting the worst. Carrying in itself typically makes the carrier more relaxed, more secure feeling, more responsible and far less likely to react violently or overreact.
Regular range time is strongly encouraged.

There are far more aspects to my course than can easily be presented here considering the typist has the will of a youngster and the fingers of an OldGuy. Push, step back, brace and draw etc. Many little and bigger things are presented in the course of the live classes. Bear in mind that this is not a Practical Pistol course but a base for self defense shooting. Other instructors may broaden the base of their courses and expand into related shooting excercises and events.
Its only important to remember that the final judge of the prospective course is you, the applicant. The responsibility for everything that occurs after the issuing of your CC with your firearm is your responsibilty, and yours alone. There will be no instructor to stand by your side in a courtroom testifying as to the validity of the shoot. No instructor should ever present scenarios to a student. Its not remotely possible to present them all and the student's first confromtation would most likely be something never considered. Don't dwell on "what if"s. Ayoob's books present rational confrontation responses. I can only answer what I might do, not what the candidate should do.
Choose your teacher carefully and remember that if something doesn't sound reasonable and rational, it probably isnt.

Shoot straight, think carefully as quickly as you can and..........
....stay low.

zfk55/sr
Thank you for posting this. You were fortunate to have such a father.

Navy, I just read the majority of that article you linked in your first post in this thread (got 75% through and then skimmed the rest), very good stuff.

I'm also a little confused as to why everyone says "you don't sound mature enough", when none of you even know me beyond the post that I've made here. I hardly believe that I have given you folks enough evidence of my maturity level for you to comment on it from the small amount of words I have posted on this site, let alone in this thread.

If you are concerned about my maturity, fine, but say what you think I need to work on, instead of "you sound immature, try again later." It could be that it's just the way I worded something or the fact that I chose a lighter tone in my writing.

I'm certainly not going to pass any judgement as concerns your maturity level, but the presented scenarios and wording of your opening post is the very reason those responses came along.

The presented scenarios were scenarios that my Mom presented, not me.

1) Of course people can be jerks. Its in the context of the previous statement; jerks that use open carry as a way to be "the big man" and intimidate people intentionally. That is why I mentioned the Black Panthers, as I've seen these guys in person before and the only reason they are open carrying is to be intimidating and you can see it in their posture and mannerisms. You don't get that with good concealed carry.

2) Better than no element, and with concealed carry you have the option to show that you have a weapon or not. You can comply and just give your wallet and watch up if you and a group are held up at a convenience store. If it escalates further, then at some point you can make a decision to engage or not. With open carry, such an option does not exist. If you didn't have the element of surprise, you may now have also just lost a $500 weapon that has now entered the black market and will be sold to some other thug after scratching off the serial number.

3) The deterrent as I mentioned is for society at large. When the people that carry are all concealed carrying, as almost everyone does, the criminals do not know who is and is not armed. And if you were to jump into a convenience store with a shotgun and a mask on, and you see some guy in line with a big old black gun contrasted mightily against light jeans and a white shirt, who is the first person you are going after?

4) If you don't think that people notice when you're walking around with a gun... you really shouldn't be open carrying, as that demonstrates a keen lack of awareness of one's surroundings. Not only is it noticed, but some people even call the police, as the average soccer mom may not even realize that is legal and just slink off frightened dialing 911. In my case it would be "some white skinhead just barged in with a gun, please send help!" Even just walking down a busy street, chances are good that at some point an LEO is going to question you.

1. Black Panthers did it solely to intimidate Police officers, they didn't do it to further our cause and did it for the opposite.

2. The element of determent is better than suprise. Its better to keep something from happening then try to change something after something has gone wrong. Would you rather keep the pipe from leaking before it starts or stop it when it starts pouring water out?

3. Criminals like to case their victim before they strike, they would wait till they are gone first. One robbery of a waffle shop was cancelled when two people went in to case the place and two of the patrons were open carrying 1911s. These guys where with a larger group and most if not all were armed with rifles. They aren't looking to murder someone, they are looking for easy targets where they just get money. They aren't savages, they know that murder is a serious thing and would add a major charge if they were caught, plus they are cowards.

4. I study people, I watch them all the time. Pretty much 95% of people when you make eye contact with them, instantly look in a different direction. I pay great attention to the people around me and this is what happens. People tend to walk around like they have blinders on in their own little world. When I was a cart pusher at a super market, alot of times I had pushed a entire set of carts up to someone, within a foot, and they still didn't notice until I called "Ma'am", or "Sir" about 3 times. This is people, this is the way they are.

I open carry because I don't have my concealed permit yet. But I live in rural Michigan where the sight of guns only upsets the FIPs (Freakin' Illinois People) who come to the lake in the summer. It's funny, because I live near Gun Lake and the irony is lost on the FIPs who gather there.

Once I get my CC, OC will generally be a thing of the past except for hunting season and camping trips. I OC because 1) I can and 2) it would be illegal to CC without a permit unless I'm on my property. I don't do it to draw attention to myself, despite the fact that it sometimes does just that.

Let us know what you do and how it progresses. I'd like to know anyway.
Best of success.

I do most of my work in Louisville and Nashville. Not the nice parts usually.






That is a question whose answer entirely situational.
The correct response to a valid physical threat does not depend on whether or not I have my sport coat on.
Care to expound, I don't understand.

1. Black Panthers did it solely to intimidate Police officers, they didn't do it to further our cause and did it for the opposite.

You might find this interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacons_for_Defense_and_Justice

Same tactics but possibly less ideologically offensive to you.

Why do some people get all worked up because someone wants to open carry rather than conceal carry. For one open carry is a LOT comfortable. Now the only time I have open carried is in the woods and near my house but I sometimes I print when I cc and all I get are the occasional looks. For one good for you deciding to open carry, I think someone already posted a link to it but there is a site call opencarry.org that is full of information.
Also to everyone else calm down really he just wants to open carry, so what if he lives with his parents these are hard economic times. He seems mature enough to me but I am actually younger than him.
As for the comment about people who open carry being "commandos" I have seen far more 1911s, single action revolvers and other more classic guns than Glocks being open carried. Best of luck to you, let us know how it goes, I have considered open carry and will probably start to oc at some point.
PS everyone please remember attack the argument not the person .

It makes absolutely no sense for a criminal to attack Joe Citizen who is known/seen to be armed.


It may or may not make sense to a given person at the time; you're off to a shaky start by trying to apply your logic to what another person may or may not do. People are not rational in general; this is even moreso the case with "criminals."

If your argument is hinging on the premise that "all violent criminals are rational and skilled at cost/benefit analysis, and only care about material benefits vs risk of danger, then I think you have the least correct conception of criminality that I could possibly imagine.

When 99.5% of the population does not visibly carry a firearm, why in the world would any criminal pick the .5% that does as a target?

Though this was clearly posted in a rhetorical manner, I'll bite. The violent criminal already forgoes conventional cost-benefit analysis (which, as I alluded, is being disproven every day in legitimate scientific journals dedicated to inquiry in economics, psychology, etc - without even introducing the element of criminality).

Would it be rational to pick "safer" targets? Yeah, sure. It would also be rational not to try to do something for, say, $20-100 a gig that carries with it a 5-to-life sentence, no? Violent criminals (as opposed to the much more broad, straw-man, "Criminals [presumably in general?] you refer to) are universally possessed of little or no impulse control.






Criminals have 3 main goals: 1. To get what they want. 2. To get what they want with the minimal amount of effort. 3. To get what they want without getting caught.


Oh, cool, are you a behaviorist? A psychologist? Criminologist? Got any citations?

Even if we accept "2" and "3" as a given, it's a known and proven fact that many violent criminals value their reputation (and thus seek reputation-enhancing opportunities such as going after harder targets - not to suggest they preferentially hit harder targets, but that their processing software does not view a 'harder target' the way a lay-person might imagine) at least as much as a "take" from a given crime.

Violent criminal acts and actors revisited[/I]]"Most commonly, [criminals] kill during some trivial quarrel, or their acts are triggered by some apparently unimportant incident, while deep and unconscious emotional needs are their basic motivation. Most murders occur on sudden impulse and in the heat of passion, in situations where the killer's emotions overcome his ability to reason.


Attacking an armed citizen greatly reduces the chances of any of those three goals from being accomplished. Mom, and the concealed carry only crowd, says you give up the element of surprise. But you gain the element of deterrence. The MAJORITY of criminals say they will be deterred by a known firearm. Why? Because there is absolutely NO REASON whatsoever for them to attack Joe Citizen who they know has the ability to kill them.

I concede the majority of criminals say that. Criminals in general, people who break laws, even the ones who end up incarcerated, are not violent. You may have seen a 20/20 interview but you haven't looked into serious inquiries of the psyches of these people if you think "deterrence via a visible firearm" is a viable option for the worst of the worst. By that logic, most criminals won't target a big, muscular guy - so let's just go to the gym instead of carry at all. Most criminals won't go after you if you don't have the appearance of wealth, etc. So let's just not wear fancy things. Etc etc ad nauseam; the point is that most people who carry do so for specific eventualities, not "the majority of situations (or criminals)," etc.

With that out of the way, and having addressed many of the premises of your argument, I will posit a counter-argument to the lynchpin of these Pro-OC posts we see all the time, which I interpret as follows:

"Though there is some small percentage of situations where it may be advantageous to conceal a firearm, the majority of potential criminal encounters will be thwarted by the visibility of a gun, and in cost-benefit analysis, OC is a (if not the) rational choice."

After the following counter-argument, I will continue to reply to NavyLCDR, and offer counter-points, because I feel his arguments are fairly representative of the OCers and thus of their often-fallacious reasoning.

The OCer (if represented by NavyLCDR's arguments) views the criminal assessment, and indeed the entire criminal interaction, as a relatively static interaction that is the result of pre-determined factors, such as "apparent value of target," "goal of criminal," "risk of targeting potential victim," etc. This goes against not only the consensus understanding of violent criminals, it also goes against sound strategy because deterrence through posturing is not necessarily a viable strategy in every situation, or even the majority of serious violence situations. Violent criminals are known to shoot it out with multiple police offers, take hostages with no intention of negotiation, etc.

Posturing I am defining here as a set of four possible options when confronted with the possibility of violence, and the other three are: Fight, Flight, or Submit. In the animal kingdom and the world of human interaction, these are essentially the four default choices.

The goal of posturing is to deter violent behavior through appearance of superior ability to do violence.

OCers on the whole claim that OCing is an effective strategy to deter violent crime on a consistent basis, but seem to never give a citation for how effective, nor even draw on criminological data to support their arguments - it is essentially a "common sense" type of argument, which is problematic as violent criminals clearly lack such "common sense."

As alluded to above one of the most problematic assumptions of the OCers is that posturing with a gun gives one the ability to deter crime, at little or no practical trade-off (argument addressed more in-depth below, in further reply to NavyLCDR). This is based on an almost Dungeons & Dragons-esque view of violent encounters that is not borne out in real life.

Two of the most important concepts I myself have learned, and utilized, in force-on-force training are the OODA loop as coined by Col. John Boyd, and the concept of unequal initiative. The OODA loop can be researched easily with Google and I'll leave anyone who wants to do that to it; the concept of unequal initiative is much more important and feeds into the OODA loop anyway.

In a serious encounter with a violent criminal, the potential victim does not possess the same initiative as the attacker. The attacker presumably has an understanding of how to commit violence, a plan to do so or ability to improvise, may well have an accomplice, and has the leisure of beginning an attack at his or her leisure. The victim, to respond with self-defense, no matter how well he or she is trained, has to play catch-up. A common ruse of predators is to engage the victim in an "interview" which is a very dynamic, not static, process. The interview interaction serves two purposes: to screen out certain types of people, yes, but also - and I would argue, potentially more importantly - to distract the potential victim and allow the use of a ruse, e.g. pincer attack, close the distance unnoticed, cognitive lag due to task load, etc.

More info about the interview and potential strategies to thwart it found here courtesy of SouthNarc: http://www.google.com/search?q=managing+unknown+contacts%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

One of the main problems of OC is that it gives clever predators more information to distract you with, and if the predator calls your bluff, it increases initiative deficit and turns your focus more to protecting your gun.

Relying upon the element of surprise, you are betting the you will be able to get your gun out of concealment and effectively fire at the criminal before they notice you doing so. It's like playing wild west quick draw. Is that what you really want to hope for? ESPECIALLY since you will be drawing your firearm in response to an attack that has already begun?

This exact same scenario can happen with an open weapon, too. In that case we can grant that it would be worse. You seem to be assuming here an openly carried weapon will always deter attacks, and I again ask: where's the data?

I also put it to you that you are misrepresenting the argument against OC on tactical premises. "Element of surprise" is a clumsy way of saying "not giving potential attackers any more information than they already have." If we view it that way, a lack of information about you for your potential attacker is an advantage in the case of uneven initiative, ploys, etc.

The fact is there are plenty of criminals who aren't afraid of guns or don't think you would use it. In fact in the above quote you sound pret-ty darn sure you AREN'T going to use it. I believe that would be obvious to someone approaching you.

Why would I take the chance to put my family through the trauma of the attack, seeing me shoot at someone, possibly killing them, and then the expense and process of a possible court case, either criminal or civil?

So don't carry a gun at all. You simply have more options with a concealed than open.

With open carry, I have a CHANCE of deterring the attack from ever happening. With concealed carry, I have ZERO chance of deterring the attack; concealed carry only allows me to defend my family AFTER the attack has already happened, which means the criminal ALREADY has gained the upper hand. So, why would I willingly give up the deterrence factor?

And here we have the MOST flawed assumption of all, that there is NO way to deter an attack other than posturing. Again, the attack process is not a static D&D style roll of the dice. It's a dynamic process. You are projecting your absolute lack of tactician-skills onto everyone else, which is an inherently bad assumption. Disrupting the attacker's OODA loop, which can not be done through static posturing such as being muscular, showing a gun, etc, would be a much more effective means of thwarting an attack. At least, if the concept of the OODA loop is valid, and the training I've had -which entails extreme pressure-testing of these concepts - was not pure fantasy - then I'm right.

I have yet to see anything - data, experience, or anything other than conjecture - that supports your assumptions. I see a lot that refutes them.

Care to expound, I don't understand

Its pretty simple.

If your situation meets the the legal requirements for the use of lethal force, use it. If not, don't.

What is not to understand?

To save anyone time who thinks I'm "anti-OC," I'm not. If you like it, cool. Great. There may even be situations for certain people where it is better or equally good.

Do what you want. But I agree with previous posters that most arguments pro-OC from a tactical standpoint are simply rationalizations made to avoid cognitive dissonance. "I want to do this, so I'm going to argue that it's not a bad idea sometimes."

Its pretty simple.

If your situation meets the the legal requirements for the use of lethal force, use it. If not, don't.

What is not to understand?
What I don't understand is what actions one will take when a tuffy confronts an OC with the premise of taking the weapon. The weapon is a liability unless one has the training to defend oneself from physical attack by a tuffy. To tell a young man, presumedly inexperienced, to carry a weapon in public is just plain callous, the kid will get the crap beat out of him if lucky and possibly killed for his expression of 2A rights. Call it ridiculous but I will never advise a person to carry a weapon openly for S/D without the proper training one needs to defend the weapon.

I've worn speedos, and let me tell you, its something you never really get super comfortable with. I mean sure, as the day goes on, it becomes less awkward, but each new day of wearing them, the discomfort is right there all over again.

I'd imagine OC is similar. And I strongly agree with Hossfly. Wearing a gun openly sure works as a statement of support for 2A, but it can also serve as a target on your back for criminals. Consider the following purely hypothetical scenario:

You have a concealed gun and intend to become an active shooter. You see a guy open-carrying. Do you:

A. Decide not to start shooting like a maniac? or
B. Simply designate a new first target?

Nuff said?

If you want to make a statement, and I commend you for your enthusiasm, join the NRA, pay for a CCW, and take a proactive approach to sharing your pro-2A views verbally.

Well, Skribs, I can see that any attempt by me, or the few other voices of reason here, to make you reconsider your decision about OC constitutes an exercise in futility, especially when you are getting so much unwise advice here supporting your decision.

I'm sure you could probably be more condenscending if you really tried hard.

1. Black Panthers did it solely to intimidate Police officers, they didn't do it to further our cause and did it for the opposite.
Exactly, I agree entirely, and was what I was trying to get across. The "jerk factor" involves people that open carry for the express purpose of being intimidating, be it the Black Panthers or just some guy that puts a big gun on his hip for all to see with chin up and chest puffed so people will show respect.

Carrying an IWB or heck even in a little dorky fanny pack removes that intentional intimidation factor that jerks are so attracted to.
2. The element of determent is better than suprise. Its better to keep something from happening then try to change something after something has gone wrong. Would you rather keep the pipe from leaking before it starts or stop it when it starts pouring water out?
I agree completely, which is why I mentioned that with concealed carry, you still have the option to remain a "sheep" and not escalate the situation. Walk up to a robbery in progress at the front of the gas station though flashing a gun, and the crackhead robbing the place is likely to panic so you better pull it.
3. Criminals like to case their victim before they strike, they would wait till they are gone first. One robbery of a waffle shop was cancelled when two people went in to case the place and two of the patrons were open carrying 1911s.
While I'm sure that scenario exists, especially in this economy there are simply a lot of drug addicts that have run out of money and resort to armed robbery out of desperation. A gander on youtube shows how idiotic many of these thugs are, so I think you may be overestimating criminal's intellect, patience, and professionalism.
4. I study people, I watch them all the time. Pretty much 95% of people when you make eye contact with them, instantly look in a different direction.
Hmm, perhaps Texans are friendlier, but people usually smile at me and say "Hi" or "Good morning". If I had a big glock glued to the right of my waist dangling by my hand, I imagine that many would be avoiding eye contact, as firearms make a good percentage of the country feel uncomfortable depending on the context of the environment (gun show, no biggie... but walking towards the bleachers with a bunch of people at a soccer game, and see the concern in some mothers eyes).
If you want to make a statement, and I commend you for your enthusiasm, join the NRA, pay for a CCW, and take a proactive approach to sharing your pro-2A views verbally.
This is excellent advice IMO, and people that are currently intimidated by firearms are a lot more open to words than the present visual right in front of them. Out of sight, out of mind, and not something they feel motivated to demand legislative changes against. That is the main reason I think that all that the scary looking black "assault rifles" have stupid laws set against them whereas similar guns with a pretty wood frame go unnoticed.

Conwict: Have you ever read this? http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/ragingagainstselfdefense.htm

You can read it as you will, but if you understand what is being said, you will see the arguments brought up, fit OC and CC.

Now, If you want, I can give you a reason to OC that was told to me many years ago, or not. You see, well before the GCA 1968, (in the 50's) there was a saying, about concealed carry,..."honest men carry honestly" I have nothing to hide, why should I hide my weapon? You know, things like that stick with you, and I OC (except in winter when my coat will cover the holster.) because I am an honest man.

I am old, and I am very happy with the idea that my visible weapon may prevent a BG from trying to make me a victim, just by it's being visible. I am not afraid to OC,,,,,I have never had a bad police encounter (in over 40 years of OC), I have had very few negative civilian encounters, and many positive encounters (including very positive (maybe the most positive) encounters with foreign tourists from countries that seriously restrict a citizens RTBA) I prefer to think that I am educating the public, just as I was educated so many years ago (1970) by a person that was OC an old Colt SA, He said, perfectly legal in WA, all you have to do is strap on your holster to be able to protect yourself and others. No "permit" required.

I know, in some states (TX and FL etc) you have no choice you cannot OC. In WI (untill 1 November) you cannot legally conceal. That is unfortunate, choice is important. If you wish to conceal, and you are doing it legally, that is totally fine with me. But I will also state, you are not educating anyone on the Right to bear arms when they have no idea that you even CAN carry.

I agree with Ringo, NavyLCDR, and not to be intentionally rude.

I don't see a single benefit to OC over CCW - aside from comfort, probably the least important thing to consider; but there are plenty of potential benefits for CCW over OC. Therefore, OC is a poor choice.

What I don't understand is what actions one will take when a tuffy confronts an OC with the premise of taking the weapon.
That is a felony assault.

You shoot 'em.






To tell a young man, presumedly inexperienced, to carry a weapon in public is just plain callous, the kid will get the crap beat out of him if lucky and possibly killed for his expression of 2A rights.

The "kid" is a 23 year old adult, a fully franchised citizen the equal of any other in legal standing and responsibility.

You say that he "will" be assaulted for being armed.:rolleyes:

Strangely, this hasn't happened to any of the dozens of open carriers I know.

To tell a young man, presumedly inexperienced, to carry a weapon in public is just plain callous, the kid will get the crap beat out of him if lucky and possibly killed for his expression of 2A rights.

Because some people just can't wait to see someone carrying a gun just to attack him with fists and commit a felony.:rolleyes:

While I'm sure that scenario exists, especially in this economy there are simply a lot of drug addicts that have run out of money and resort to armed robbery out of desperation. A gander on youtube shows how idiotic many of these thugs are, so I think you may be overestimating criminal's intellect, patience, and professionalism.

That scenario happened. Once again, criminals are cowards and bullies. Do you ever see a 4th grader pick on another 4th grader thats just as big? Nope, they pick on smaller kids in lower grades, this happens with criminals too.

Hmm, perhaps Texans are friendlier, but people usually smile at me and say "Hi" or "Good morning". If I had a big glock glued to the right of my waist dangling by my hand, I imagine that many would be avoiding eye contact, as firearms make a good percentage of the country feel uncomfortable depending on the context of the environment (gun show, no biggie... but walking towards the bleachers with a bunch of people at a soccer game, and see the concern in some mothers eyes).

I hardly ever carry a gun since the Local Police Chief likes to make his own rules so I'm restricted to Open Carry if anything, even then I hardly carry. This lack of eye contact is normal for anyone, at least in the bigger towns/cities.

Next ask her when was the last time she heard of a LEO getting robbed while on duty.

One has to look no further than this site to see in 2011, 49 were killed by gunfire, 1 stabbed, 4 Assault and 7 vehicular assault.

http://www.odmp.org/search/year/2011

Oh, cool, are you a behaviorist? A psychologist? Criminologist? Got any citations?

I've got a degree in Sociology with an emphasis on criminal behavior from a crappy public university, does that count? (go hilltoppers)


In general, an individual being a credible, lethal threat to a deviant pretty much removes that individual from the list of acceptable victims for most crimes since the risk to benefit ratio isn't in the favor of the deviant.

I can send you a heap of journal articles on the subject if you want, but it won't be fun reading though the concept of victim precipitation is fascinating.

PreMod70: I have had one encounter where I was happy I was wearing a OC firearm. It was a road rage incident years ago. Two lane road...There was a Jeep that was wildly "pushing" me as I drove down the road at the speedlimit.

I pulled over to let this crazy driver pass andhe pulled in behind me, jumped out of his Jeep yelling and screaming at me on how I cut him off??? (On a two lane road????) Anyway he wanted me to step out and fight (much younger and in better shape). I declined, and as I was proceding to drive away he opens my door, and reaches in to pull me out of the car.

That is when (I assume) he saw my holstered Colt, as he very suddenly decided that pulling me out of my car might not be that good of an idea. He backed away rather rapidly, got in his Jeep, and left just as fast as it could go.

Pistol never left the holster.

Next ask her when was the last time she heard of a LEO getting robbed while on duty.

One has to look no further than this site to see in 2011, 49 were killed by gunfire, 1 stabbed, 4 Assault and 7 vehicular assault.

...and that has naught to do with the frequency with which on duty LEOs who are open carrying a firearm are robbed.

The truth of the matter is that anyone who says concealed carry is better 100% of the time is a fool. The person who says that open carry is better 100% of the time is a fool. It all depends upon location, situation and the person carrying the gun.

We, as gun owners, should simply present the facts, statistics, research and opinions; let the person decide for themselves; AND QUIT BERATING OTHERS or judging them for their decision.

There is nothing wrong with concealed carry. For some people, in some locations, and in some situations it is the wiser of the choices. I conceal carry sometimes.

The only issue I have is when people present opinions and attempt to pass those opinions off as fact, when there is no real world evidence to support that opinion; and people who refuse to acknowledge any benefit of open carry anywhere for anyone.

Conwict, I think the whole "57% of criminals agree they are more scared of an armed victim than a police officer" (linked in Navy's first post in this thread) is a good indication that most criminals do not want to pick a fight with an OCer.

Some people are bringing up a couple of different positions, though:

The whole "tough guy" who wants to pick a fight with an OCer for street cred, or just to taunt the OCer and see what will happen. This would be a test for me to see how I would react, and seems to me to be a perfect opportunity to explain to the individual that there is a comfort zone s/he should not violate and to back off. I've spent enough time playing video games on the internet to not respond solely to taunts, and am smart enough to only use my weapon if I actually fear for my life or limb.
It still is a risk, but based on the places I generally frequent and my demeanor, I don't see this as being a big risk.

The other is the violent criminal who is going to start shooting anyway, and seeing me OC means I will be the first target. Of course, if more people OC'd, he'd have a hard time picking targets and would probably back away. If I'm the only person there, there's still a good chance that the criminal won't see that I have a gun until I'm able to draw. If I'm in a crowded store, around the aisle corner at 7-11, sitting down in a booth at a restaraunt, etc. then he probably won't see it. Spree shootings are going to occur in a target-rich environment, so there are a lot of obstacles to block view.

I'm kind of rambling, but that's just what I see.

ETA: This reminds me of a politics class I took, where one of the decisions we covered basically went like this: The Republicans think People are A so they will do B, so the policy should be C. The Democrats think people are X so they will do Y, so the policy should be Z. If A is true, C is the best course. If X is true, Z is the right course. Because A and X make sense from the perspective of the individual and B-C or Y-Z would be the correct thing to do in the case of their respective scenario, both sides are right for their proposed condition. (That doesn't apply to all policies, but I think it does to some). In the end, they can argue all they want, but barely anyone will change their mind.

The truth of the matter is that anyone who says concealed carry is better 100% of the time is a fool. The person who says that open carry is better 100% of the time is a fool.
I agree wholeheartedly. My problem is that there are numerous potential benefits that only apply to concealed-carry, but virtually zero benefits (potential or otherwise) that only apply to open-carry. Therefore, advising someone to OC, or even encouraging someone who's already considering it is a pretty irresponsible move, imo.

Man, you're 23 ( so am I btw ), you live in Washington state and you know who Larry the Cable Guy is... But not Johnny Cash? Come on, man! Ring of Fire, Walk the Line, etc... The man even mentions Ellensburg in "I've been everywhere" No wonder you feel you need to OC!

Sorry, had to flip you some crap over that :P


Anyway, I just wanted to comment on one thing was a Washington citizen... I pay attention to what people carry. I've seen people carrying around pocket knives and check out what brand they are, and whenever I see someone with a pistol I kind of want to ask them what kind it is--but I learned when I was a kid that's not exactly "polite" and doesn't put people in a good mood. I think a lot of people notice stuff like this, but just don't say anything.

Anyway, I have no feeling about CC vs OC... Personally I agree with Ringolevino, just speaking for myself personally, I'd like to pretend, "Oh, I'd only pull if I'd have to," but I've gotten into a lot of fights I should have walked away from.

I will say one thing though, about criminals in Washington... If you're dealing with meth addicts or gang members, take logic and throw it out of the window. Around here they target rural property owners specifically to look for firearms, despite the fact that they're often held there by armed neighbors until police come, and at times even shot by the property owners when they come home. Yet they'll still take the risk because you can cruise through a rural area, break into a handful of houses and throw a few thousand dollars worth of guns into your car and drive away before the cops can even get there. They'll take the gamble

but virtually zero benefits (potential or otherwise) that only apply to open-carry.

Once again, facts, statistics, research, and history prove otherwise, but those with closed minds will never admit that other possibilities exist other than their own opinions.

"The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever
that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the
majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish
than sensible." - Bertrand Russell

"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports
in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place."
- Paul Kurtz

yes I agree with Ringolevio the art of suprise is not to be sneard at. When I lived in Florida I asked a Officer of the law about oc as there was no law against it , he agreed but also said they would more than likely take the weapon from you and call it i believe it was for your saftey to keep someone from taking your weapon and using it against you, thats one reason to not advertise all your business. but then again each to thier own also before I forget that was 30 years ago

Once again, facts, statistics, research, and history prove otherwise, but those with closed minds will never admit that other possibilities exist other than their own opinions.
Anyone can say "history says otherwise herp durp," and then finish off with meaningless quotes about foolishness, but it doesn't help prove your point.

If you really believe OC is superior, in any situation, specifically explain just one actual benefit that's exclusive to OC (EG, it applies to OC, and does not apply to concealed-carry).

I'm willing to believe a situation exists in which OC is superior to concealed-carry, but I can't think of it. That being said, you should supply it for me, because you're the one advocating it. Saying "history has proved me wrong" is not an argument.

I read part of the argument over open carry and skipped to the end to actually answer your question :/
$.02
I think you should wait until you move out so as not to upset your mother. I think she is emotionally invested in the argument and might be hard to reason with.

Posted to Sam Cade:

I know of accounts where LEO's were stripped of their weapon so if a tuffy is properly liquored up I doubt that an OCer is going to fare much better. Shoot a tuffy in NC over a weapon and the courts may take away your freedom, don't know about KY so enjoy your OC. I don't enjoy childing an individual but when it comes to guns one must take that responsibility very seriously and any 23 year old that asks me to persuade their mother to let them OC is never going to be boosted into making the mistake of their life by me. There are better ways for a young man to defend himself than walking around displaying a firearm and before brandishing one that person should know all the aspects of S/D and the wisdom of listening to his elders.

the wisdom of listening to his elders.

Sometimes there can be a negative correlation between age and wisdom.

Occasionally yes, but seldom is youth blessed

If you really believe OC is superior, in any situation, specifically explain just one actual benefit that's exclusive to OC (EG, it applies to OC, and does not apply to concealed-carry).

How about read the thread and then you'll get your answer. Posting like that keeps threads going in circles and circles.

PreMod70: I have had one encounter where I was happy I was wearing a OC firearm. It was a road rage incident years ago.

I pulled over to let this crazy driver pass andhe pulled in behind me, jumped out of his Jeep yelling and screaming at me on how I cut him off??? (On a two lane road????) Anyway he wanted me to step out and fight (much younger and in better shape). I declined, and as I was proceding to drive away he opens my door, and reaches in to pull me out of the car.
I conceal carry, but if I were concerned about a road-rage encounter that I could not avoid, then I could certainly make the decision to reveal my holstered firearm or unholster it and get the same desired effect.

However, I wouldn't feel the need to brandish and announce to everyone at Krogers that I am carrying a 9mm while shopping for sales on sandwich meat.

With concealed carry, you have the option to unconceal at any time when prudent, but with open that option is removed.

I'm willing to believe a situation exists in which OC is superior to concealed-carry, but I can't think of it. That being said, you should supply it for me, because you're the one advocating it. Saying "history has proved me wrong" is not an argument.

I'll help to push the cart around the circle yet one more time, for the benefit of those that couldn't see it the first time around:

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

Captain Jerry Quan, the Commander for Precinct One, where the Wafflehouse is located, confirmed Matt Brannan's story as one in which the open display of a pistol deterred a well armed robbery crew.

I wonder if the scout would have come in and seen Matt Brannan sitting there with no gun visible and said to himself, "Gee, we better move on to another Wafflehouse because that guy back there just might have a concealed pistol."

Posted to NavyLCDR:

Your logic suffers; if the badguys see a weapon and retreat to victimise another defenseless soul when CC would have the badguys facing armed resistance you have helped them hurt someone else. The idea of CC is that if enough people carry the bad guys don't know who's lethal and who's not thus protecting those without weapons. The only way OC works is when all are doing the same and who want's to live in Dodge City, not I.

Your logic suffers; if the badguys see a weapon and retreat to victimise another defenseless soul when CC would have the badguys facing armed resistance you have helped them hurt someone else. The idea of CC is that if enough people carry the bad guys don't know who's lethal and who's not thus protecting those without weapons. The only way OC works is when all are doing the same and who want's to live in Dodge City, not I.

I am glad that you feel that your concealed carry helps keep the world safer from criminals. Thank you for your service.

I don't carry to protect the world from criminals. I carry a gun to protect myself and my family from criminals. And the best way to protect myself and my family from criminals is to deter the attack from ever happening. That way I spare myself and my family the trauma of the attack itself, the self defense shooting, possibly witnessing the killing of human being, and possibly a court criminal and civil court process which could very easily bankrupt myself and my family.

It's not my fault if the criminal passes by me or my family because they see my gun and attack the 80 year old woman who comes in after I leave. I am not committing the criminal act, put the blame on the criminal, where it belongs. If I SEE the criminal attack the 80 year old woman, I absolutely will intervene, using my gun if needed.

Once again, research has shown that the KNOWN ability of the potential victim to kill the criminal will deter MORE criminals than the thought that a potential target MIGHT be armed. So, I will place my bet on the odds that are more in my favor. I'm sorry if placing my bet that way might increase the chances that the criminal will attack the next person coming along. Hopefully they will be carrying a concealed firearm and can save the world from that one particular criminal.

PreMod, I remember reading a memoir written by a navy SEAL, who was talking about his time in military school. Everyone carried a weapon, and there were 0 homicides (few suicides, but 0 homicides).

Your logic suffers, too. Bad guy walks into 7-11, where I am CCing. He pulls a knife on the owner. I draw my gun and tell him to stop, store owner calls 911. Criminal retreats, so I have no reason to shoot him. He walks down to another convenience store and holds it up instead. The difference is he just spent longer in 7-11.

For me I believe that, generally, the deterrence associated with a visible firearm is a net positive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Cade
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skribs
Unfortunately, the official Darwin Award for this seems to be screwed up, but I found it quoted in another thread here
There is a Snopes entry for it.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/dumdum/gunshop.asp
It actually backed up the story, which surprised me - I didn't think anyone was that dumb!

Personally, I'd weigh the pros/cons of each. OC and CC have benefits and drawbacks. How likely is it that you'll end up in a situation, based on where you live? Will the extra time it takes to get a gun out of CC plus the deterrent effect outweigh the attention from the public OC gets you? I don't know - I live in TX, not WA, but I've never seen someone OC in my town. My area is very safe, so I don't CC or OC... ah suburbia, where I stand as much chance of getting mugged as being attacked by a polar bear.

Now, for the rest of the story:

I knew Danny Morris (the clerk who shot the robber) back when this happened in WA back in the '80's, I shot with him at ISPC matches.

What's not in the story is that the robber was a developmentally challenged 20-something year old. He had just moved out of his parents house (IRC) and was just starting to learn to live on his own. He had no known prior criminal record.

His parents have no idea why he tried to "rob" the store, since he had never done anything like that before.

Bottom line: It was a terrible tragedy, especially for the parents.

P.S. Danny used his IPSC match gun in the shooting: a Colt Delta Elite in 10MM. After the shooting, the coroner stated that his three shots were all "A" hits.

The Renton Police Chief gave Danny a medal for saving the cops life and Danny's Colt was returned to him.

I haven't seen or thought of Danny in years, I'm sure he's passed by now.

Is it just me or does anyone else think that someone living at home at 23 needing permission from momma to OC probably isn't mature enough to carry?

Is it just me or does anyone else think that someone living at home at 23 needing permission from momma to OC probably isn't mature enough to carry?


He isn't asking for permission, he is asking for rhetorical approaches and advice to keep his mother from worrying about him.


Post #1.
I'm still planning on starting soon, regardless of what she thinks, but I of course want my Mom to not worry about me. Anyone have any advice on what I can tell her?

Skribs,

As others have said, my input is free, so treat it accordingly: the OC vs CC debate has been going on for a very long time, and I don't really want to get involved in that argument. There are some pretty good points for each side - the element of surprise, acting as a deterent, easy access, blending in - and those are all things that I think should be taken into account.

Your mother's opinion of it is not a valid point. No disrespect intended, but its your life, and your decision, not hers.

If you decide to OC, great. If not, thats cool too. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons.

Sorry if that sounds too cheesy or preachy.


Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

Skribs,
...
Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

Everything in between there is a most excellent post. Very nicely said, I agree with it 110%!

Kayakman, I just realized something. My Mom is part of the larger CC crowd, and it's just something we're going to disagree on.

Like I said, though. My Mom's opinion isn't going to affect whether or not I OC. My Mom's opinion WILL affect what she thinks of my OCing, and I want her to think positively instead of worry.

Is it just me or does anyone else think that someone living at home at 23 needing permission from momma to OC probably isn't mature enough to carry?

It's just you

Is it just me or does anyone else think that someone living at home at 23 needing permission from momma to OC probably isn't mature enough to carry?

Its called respecting your parents, especially since hes currently living at home.

Post to Skribs:

Sorry, but my read is you're baiting yourself for some serious trouble if you think flashing a weapon is a proper response to danger; once you point and worst use that weapon your world changes forever and it is not for the good, no matter what the cowboys tell you. I feel you wish to do the right thing but I do hope you reconsider, give yourself another decade at least of experience, gain some S/D tactics and spend your time doing some good for yourself and family, not worrying them to death.

PreMod, it sounds more like you're baiting me by making that statement. I have said clearly that I am not going to flash my weapon the instant a red flag shoots up, because most of those are false alarms. I would only draw if I knew there was a clear danger present...which is the purpose of a self defense handgun.

Post to Skribs:

Sorry, but my read is you're baiting yourself for some serious trouble if you think flashing a weapon is a proper response to danger; once you point and worst use that weapon your world changes forever and it is not for the good, no matter what the cowboys tell you. I feel you wish to do the right thing but I do hope you reconsider, give yourself another decade at least of experience, gain some S/D tactics and spend your time doing some good for yourself and family, not worrying them to death.

So, a person should not carry to be able to defend themselves with until they are 33 years old?

Skribs came here, asked an honest question, evaluated the comments, wants to open carry for valid reasons, but wants to cause his mother to feel more comfortable with that. Seems to me like that shows a lot of maturity. Just because he chooses to carry in a way that some people don't like, including his mom, is no sign of immaturity or anything else, other than a person who has weighed the facts v. opinion v. theory v. fable and has chosen what he feels is best and most effective for him.

PreMod, it sounds more like you're baiting me by making that statement. I have said clearly that I am not going to flash my weapon the instant a red flag shoots up, because most of those are false alarms. I would only draw if I knew there was a clear danger present...which is the purpose of a self defense handgun.
Your 7-11 senario is what will get you hurt in the real world, a badguy with a knife will see your OC and harpoon you while using your weapon to further continue his ploy. OC is showing your power in the S/D sense and makes you weaker, never stronger. A badguy will case an area before taking action and by showing your strength you are first on the badguys list of hits, the video's so popular today show inexperienced punk's making all kinds of mistakes, the badguy doesn't do this, you are the prey in his world and flashing heat around him is a big mistake. Go take yourself a good S/D course and see if you can find an instructor worth his salt that will tell you to OC; never happen.

So, a person should not carry to be able to defend themselves with until they are 33 years old?

Skribs came here, asked an honest question, evaluated the comments, wants to open carry for valid reasons, but wants to cause his mother to feel more comfortable with that. Seems to me like that shows a lot of maturity. Just because he chooses to carry in a way that some people don't like, including his mom, is no sign of immaturity or anything else, other than a person who has weighed the facts v. opinion v. theory v. fable and has chosen what he feels is best and most effective for him.
Never said that Skribs should not be able to defend himself, rather, wish he would listen to his Mothers wisdom and carry CC. If you or him really wish to maximise your S/D skills you would never choose to OC. I guarantee you that if ever confronted by a real badguy your thoughts will change quickly. The OC carry runs the punks away, not the badguys; luckily the world is full of punks.

Your 7-11 senario is what will get you hurt in the real world, a badguy with a knife will see your OC and harpoon you while using your weapon to further continue his ploy.

Has this EVER happened?

Can you show us an example to prove it is more than a figment of your imagination?

Sure, it could happen...but since, as far as any of us knows, it never has it certainly isn't very likely now is it?


OC is showing your power in the S/D sense and makes you weaker, never stronger.

Bullcrap.

The word is deterrence. Look it up.

A badguy will case an area before taking action and by showing your strength you are first on the badguys list of hits,

BULLCRAP.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-atlanta/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw

"Open carry deters armed robbery in Kennesaw

Captain Jerry Quan, the Commander for Precinct One, where the Wafflehouse is located, confirmed Matt Brannan's story as one in which the open display of a pistol deterred a well armed robbery crew. "



Now that I have taken the initiative and provided proof that directly and unarguably contradicts your statements perhaps you can provide us with some proof that your statements are in any way, shape or form legitimate.

Never said that Skribs should not be able to defend himself, rather, wish he would listen to his Mothers wisdom and carry CC.

So his mother is a self defense expert and wise on the subject based upon her actual, real world experience and vast training? Or is she wise for no other reason than she agrees with you.

It's funny how everybody who agrees with your opinion is wise, and everyone else is a fool. Did you ever stop to think that there are wise, well trained persons who open carry as well? No, of course not, because open carry can be nothing more than foolish to you, because you don't agree with it for whatever reason you choose to justify your feelings with.

Isn't it funny how none of your wise people can come up with one instance where an open carrier was at the scene of a crime, stabbed or shot, and their gun taken from them?

It's funny how everybody who agrees with your opinion is wise, and everyone else is a fool.

OT a bit, this is why I love playing devil's advocate. Makes me more certain of my decisions when I make them.

'That is a felony assault.

You shoot 'em.'

That sounds like the reply from a man looking for an excuse to shoot someone while wearing the bait on his hip.

George

What I don't understand is what actions one will take when a tuffy confronts an OC with the premise of taking the weapon.
That is a felony assault.

You shoot 'em.

Quoted the whole thing for you, and I agree. I'd back up and put my hand on the grip (both for readiness and to secure it against the aggressor) and tell the man to take a hike (in different terms, of course). If he continues to persist, then I would feel I had reason to draw. Whether or not I fired would depend on the situation.

On the other hand, if Tuffy grabs my gun from behind, and I have a BUG, I probably would shoot him right then, because I would not want to risk him getting a shot off, and he would be way too close for E&E to work.

'That is a felony assault.

You shoot 'em.'

That sounds like the reply from a man looking for an excuse to shoot someone while wearing the bait on his hip.

George

So open carriers carry in that manner to shoot someone despite their gun being a huge deterent to criminals? Yeah that makes sense. It could be said that CCW people carry that way to appear unarmed to criminals so they do attack them. Making statements like that aren't usually welcome here on The High Road.

So open carriers carry in that manner to shoot someone despite their gun being a huge deterent to criminals? Yeah that makes sense. It could be said that CCW people carry that way to appear unarmed to criminals so they do attack them. Making statements like that aren't usually welcome here on The High Road.

I've often seen the concealed carry only crowd post that open carry does not deter crime, it only passes that crime over to the next victim to come along; but utilizing the "element of surprise" to stop the criminal deters that criminal from ever committing another crime.

I've often seen the concealed carry only crowd post that open carry does not deter crime, it only passes that crime over to the next victim to come along; but utilizing the "element of surprise" to stop the criminal deters that criminal from ever committing another crime.

If somebody believed that to be true I would ask them why they select the mode of carry they believe to be most likely to result in an armed confrontation where by must use their gun to defend themselves.

I would rather select the option that avoids my being in a conflict.

My area is very safe, so I don't CC or OC... ah suburbia, where I stand as much chance of getting mugged as being attacked by a polar bear.

Seriously? Here's a little tale of life in affluent, safe, "suburbia".

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/mass/cheshire-murders/1.html

I've solved the oc and cc debate. I carry two guns one cc one oc. There that takes care of that. / humor off

I've solved the oc and cc debate. I carry two guns one cc one oc. There that takes care of that. / humor off

That's not going to work. According to the concealed only crowd, the criminal is STILL going to shoot you first dead in a robbery, and now, after they have shot you with their own gun, they are going to take your TWO guns from your cold, dead body and use them to commit the rest of the robbery with. Geez, can't you see the infinite wisdom in that?

open carry= bad idea

most of the time IMO.

Camping? Why not.

Fishing? Why not.

Hiking? Sure.

Grabbing a gallon of milk in urban grocery? Not wise...

I think it turns off fence sitters towards allowing people to carry/own guns...

Grabbing a gallon of milk in urban grocery? Not wise...

I think it turns off fence sitters towards allowing people to carry/own guns...

And those of us that actually open carry in the urban grocery stores on a daily basis have exactly the opposite experiences in real life about 95% of the time.

LaVere:
I've solved the oc and cc debate. I carry two guns one cc one oc. There that takes care of that. / humor off

NavyLCDR
That's not going to work. According to the concealed only crowd, the criminal is STILL going to shoot you first dead in a robbery, and now, after they have shot you with their own gun, they are going to take your TWO guns from your cold, dead body and use them to commit the rest of the robbery with. Geez, can't you see the infinite wisdom in that?

LaVere, you could have put "humor off" on a big honking neon sign and it would still go right over the head of someone severely humor-challenged (and logic-challenged to boot).

And those of us that actually open carry in the urban grocery stores on a daily basis have exactly the opposite experiences in real life

So many of the concealed carriers who are all against open carry spout rhetoric about what "will happen" and are just as wrong and full of it as the anti gunners who spout off about concealed carry

So many of the concealed carriers who are all against open carry spout rhetoric about what "will happen" and are just as wrong and full of it as the anti gunners who spout off about concealed carry

I do notice a striking similarity in some of the things the Brady Bunch and other anti-gun groups say about anyone who carries a gun, and some of the things that the concealed only crowd says about anyone who openly carries a gun...

Being as Indiana is a Open Carry allowed state we shall now see what is going to happen regarding Open Carry here after the clown tried to make a point of it at a Zoo in Evansville. I always assumed being discreet was to my advantage but never made it an absolute rule to be completely concealed.

Yes I know what assuming makes of me.

FIVETWOSEVEN,
If my comment is unwelcome here I apologize. But the reply I refered to seemed flippant and callous.
As a combat veteran I don't view lethal violence as a subject or action taken lightly.

George

I see nothing wrong with a second amendment statement being made with open carrying of a firearm. I would hope that one would do it with a little style. By style, not look like a bum, use a nice leather holster, and carry an appropriate firearm (not a highpoint 45 acp).
It is painfully obvious when most conceal a firearm that I hardly see a difference strategically.

Eh, I don't do leather. Sorry.

Why not? Leather looks beautiful! ;)

If my comment is unwelcome here I apologize. But the reply I refered to seemed flippant and callous.
So you think that the appropriate response to a felony assault on your person while armed is to NOT shoot?

You claim that an open carried firearm is "bait"...

Better tell these guys to stop baiting people:
http://kentuckystatepolice.org/posts/press/2006/pressphotos/new_post_16_troopers.jpg

Sam, I think his specific comment was in reference to the person who said "if someone says there going to take my gun, I'm going to shoot them." At least, that's how I read it - he thinks the person that made the comment he quoted (using "" and not </quote>) was basically trying to open carry to use any harassment he gets for it as an excuse to shoot people.

I also think the person that he quoted was saying that if he does get assaulted because he's carrying, then by definition he'll have the tools to defend himself. I don't think he would bait-and-shoot.

Of course, I'm just giving people the benefit of the doubt. They could all be bonkers for all I know :P.

Fivetwo, just because some people think its beautiful doesn't mean all do. I prefer a nice plastic or nylon holster to a leather one.

Sam, I think his specific comment was in reference to the person who said "if someone says there going to take my gun, I'm going to shoot them." At least, that's how I read it - he thinks the person that made the comment he quoted (using "" and not </quote>) was basically trying to open carry to use any harassment he gets for it as an excuse to shoot people.


He was addressing me directly for what I said in post #86

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7600082&postcount=86

Wow! The majority of this thread is bickering that does not suggest "High Road".
The OP was asking how to make his mother feel more comfortable with HIS DECISION to OC. For that I'll +1 to checking out the open carry forum stated earlier. If you dine in Snohomish county, I'll join you and your mum. Calling him a "kid" or "immature" shows your own ignorance.

To the people who asked about a punk confronting you about your OC weapon: (Yes its happened, as I've read from other users on THIS site.) You could simply ask the agressor if he knows he's about to commit felony assault and ask him if he'd like to proceed as you step back and place a hand on your weapon. The main objective is to walk away. If he backs down, walk away. If he attacks, he is commiting a violent crime, and you have a right to defend yourself from violent crime.

To the people suggesting OC only passes the criminals to someone who appears unarmed: I'd gladly OC every day if it means the BG will go attack someone else. If that means YOU have to shoot every BG who sees me as a "difficult target" I can live with that.

All that being said: I usually CC. But I have the option. Don't berate another american for excercising an option you dont personally like.

also +1 to "You dont know who Johnny Cash is?!" I will admit, I dont know much of the Beetles. But as Uma Thurman said in Pulp Fiction, "You're either a Beetles man or an Elvis man." Hail to the KING baby! :)

^^ agreed. I gotta say, I'm disappointed in this thread.

The OC vs CC argument is absolutely ridiculous. It's two opinions, and the other is always wrong. Let people carry how they want to carry, and don't bring arguments into a simple question.

To answer OP's question, I will suggest just explaining that a gun, to the average thug, will make them avoid you. They are lazy. A gunfight is way more work than they want to invest. It's also a chance to teach others about gun laws and gun safety, because people are curious, and everyone I know that OC's get's questions rather often.

MyGreenGuns:
Wow! The majority of this thread is bickering that does not suggest "High Road".
[snip]
To the people who asked about a punk confronting you about your OC weapon: (Yes its happened, as I've read from other users on THIS site.) You could simply ask the agressor if he knows he's about to commit felony assault and ask him if he'd like to proceed as you step back and place a hand on your weapon. The main objective is to walk away. If he backs down, walk away. If he attacks, he is commiting a violent crime, and you have a right to defend yourself from violent crime.

I quite agree this discussion does not suggest "The High Road", but for different reasons.

What part of the following is not being understood?: "The punk confronting you about your OC weapon" would not be confronting you at all if that weapon were concealed.

The OC advocates here seem so obsessed with demonstrating their right to OC (even when it contradicts common sense) that they are willing to, in effect, set the wheels in motion to invite and provoke a felony assault where none would otherwise occur.

It's tantamount to walking down the street with wads of cash displayed openly (which you have every right to do); Yes, the guy who robs you is committing a felony, but your lack of common sense invites the crime.

At least one of you also fails to understand the difference between OC by a uniformed and commissioned LEO and OC by a private citizen. By your "logic", everybody should OC. Maybe then we'll be able to spot the plainclothesmen and detectives because they'll be the only ones not OC'ing; would that make sense in the strange world you seem to inhabit? (A world where one "simply asks" the aggressor, "Pardon me, My Good Fellow; might you be aware that you are about to commit a felony assault? Are you quite sure you wish to proceed?").

In the real world that I inhabit, I (too often) find myself unable to avoid walking a gauntlet of loudmouth, posturing thugs. If I were OC'ing, I would not make it to the end of the block.

MyGreenGuns:
also +1 to "You dont know who Johnny Cash is?!" I will admit, I dont know much of the Beetles. But as Uma Thurman said in Pulp Fiction, "You're either a Beetles man or an Elvis man." Hail to the KING baby!

So, you agree with me about Johnny Cash. Whoop-di-doo. But the guy who didn't know who Johnny Cash was at least knew how to spell "Johnny Cash". Sheesh! A "beetle" is either an insect or a car made by Volkswagen.

And I hope you'll learn more about lawless violence than you learned watching "Pulp Fiction"; and I hope you survive the lesson.

Fivetwo, just because some people think its beautiful doesn't mean all do. I prefer a nice plastic or nylon holster to a leather one.

I thought this at first myself and got a Serpa, now my handguns sit in thumb break leather holsters, to each their own though. Nothing wrong with liking holsters that are more durable and lighter than leather. ;)

So his mother is a self defense expert and wise on the subject based upon her actual, real world experience and vast training? Or is she wise for no other reason than she agrees with you.

It's funny how everybody who agrees with your opinion is wise, and everyone else is a fool. Did you ever stop to think that there are wise, well trained persons who open carry as well? No, of course not, because open carry can be nothing more than foolish to you, because you don't agree with it for whatever reason you choose to justify your feelings with.

Isn't it funny how none of your wise people can come up with one instance where an open carrier was at the scene of a crime, stabbed or shot, and their gun taken from them?
Apparantly Mom is more experienced in S/D than most that defend OC. Cops OC because the openly displayed badges give them away, they also CC when they are not wearing their badges because they are well practiced in S/D tactics.

@ Ringolevio (who posted everything I am quoting)

The OP was asking how to talk to his mom about his decision. If you dont agree, just post that and move on. Bickering about what COULD or MIGHT happen is off topic.

What part of the following is not being understood?: "The punk confronting you about your OC weapon" would not be confronting you at all if that weapon were concealed.
I understand what you are saying. Repeated posts do not make the point more valid. As long as you can understand that sometimes carrying openly can deter a possible event. I do not believe thugs confronting an armed 'victim' is a common event. To be honest, when I OC, I am far more worried about a panic'd soccer mom than a thug. So you are suggesting noone should excercise their rights for something that may never happen? It is not equal to carelessly displaying cash as you stroll around town.

..would that make sense in the strange world you seem to inhabit? (A world where one "simply asks" the aggressor, "Pardon me, My Good Fellow; might you be aware that you are about to commit a felony assault? Are you quite sure you wish to proceed?").
I am not a big guy. I'm not an old guy. Diplomacy is my first resort. I would be stating that:
a) Yes, I know what you are thinking of doing.
b) Yes, I am prepared to defend my life.
c) I am not being the HOSTILE party.

In the real world that I inhabit, I (too often) find myself unable to avoid walking a gauntlet of loudmouth, posturing thugs. If I were OC'ing, I would not make it to the end of the block.
Apparently the many of us who have OC in the "real world" know something you dont.

So, you agree with me about Johnny Cash. Whoop-di-doo. But the guy who didn't know who Johnny Cash was at least knew how to spell "Johnny Cash". Sheesh!
You point out my spelling and then spell it the same. Funny. Dont bicker at me about it, I copied it from these fools! (LINK:http://www.johnnycash.com/)

And I hope you'll learn more about lawless violence than you learned watching "Pulp Fiction"; and I hope you survive the lesson.
You realize half the title of that movie is "Fiction". Clearly you need a hug.

I know you will most likely continue to argue your point so I'll give you this: "Everything I say is wrong, Everything you say is right. Thank you for your wisdom oh great one."

I liked the Serpa at first as well. I have one that fits my G26 and my G19. I have since changed my mind and, IMO, 'upgraded'. I have two Galco COP 3 slots and hopefully before logn will have a Simply Rugged Tribute. (that would make 3 all leather with thumbsnaps)

I did not read all the responses so forgive me ............
You are old enough to carry and you have to ask your Mom?
Did I get this right?

You apparently didn't even read my original post, sarge, let alone the comments. I don't have to ask her. I want her to be more comfortable when I do.

What part of the following is not being understood?: "The punk confronting you about your OC weapon" would not be confronting you at all if that weapon were concealed.

Other punks would not be confronting my if they didn't see that I had a weapon. Both sides can say "these types of punks will focus on people who (have/have no) gun displayed." So in the end, it's down to which you personally think is more likely, and that will most likely be situational depending on your demeanor and the part of town you live in.

The OC advocates here seem so obsessed with demonstrating their right to OC (even when it contradicts common sense) that they are willing to, in effect, set the wheels in motion to invite and provoke a felony assault where none would otherwise occur.

It's tantamount to walking down the street with wads of cash displayed openly (which you have every right to do); Yes, the guy who robs you is committing a felony, but your lack of common sense invites the crime.

There's a big difference here. The difference is that you cannot use a wad of cash to defend yourself.

At least one of you also fails to understand the difference between OC by a uniformed and commissioned LEO and OC by a private citizen. By your "logic", everybody should OC. Maybe then we'll be able to spot the plainclothesmen and detectives because they'll be the only ones not OC'ing; would that make sense in the strange world you seem to inhabit? (A world where one "simply asks" the aggressor, "Pardon me, My Good Fellow; might you be aware that you are about to commit a felony assault? Are you quite sure you wish to proceed?").

If everyone OC'd, then the detectives would OC, too.

Also, if you are CCing, what would your strategy be when someone walks up, pulls out a switchblade, and says "I want the wallet and the watch."
Take that response, and you can just as easily apply it to OC when someone walks up to you and says "gimme your gun."

My response, in either situation, would be to take a step back, put my hand on my gun (which involves displaying it when I'm CCing, already displayed if I'm OCing), and stating clearly something along the lines of "back off."

The point is, in either case, you're going to respond the same. So you can't use "how would you respond" as a CC vs. OC argument.

In the real world that I inhabit, I (too often) find myself unable to avoid walking a gauntlet of loudmouth, posturing thugs. If I were OC'ing, I would not make it to the end of the block.

Then in your situation, if you think these thugs would be baited by your OCing, you shouldn't OC. That doesn't mean everyone else is in the situation you are in. I live in a pretty nice neighborhood where I only run into "thugs" maybe once or twice a year. So I'm not at all worried about making it to the end of the block.

I did not read all the responses so forgive me ............
You are old enough to carry and you have to ask your Mom?
Did I get this right?

He is asking for a way to put her at ease. Not for advice on whether he should or not, or for judgment by you.

Good, I was not giving judgement there Internet tough guy.... I was asking. It is a question.
Keyboard warriors sheesh.....

At least one of you also fails to understand the difference between OC by a uniformed and commissioned LEO and OC by a private citizen.


Please enlighten us.



If I were OC'ing, I would not make it to the end of the block.


I bet you would. You should try it.

Good, I was not giving judgement there Internet tough guy.... I was asking. It is a question.
Keyboard warriors sheesh.....

Yeah, I'm the internet tough guy... Whatever you say, "Sarge."

I think that doing it, and continuing to live a happy healthy life is what will convince her, if that is what you have decided you want to do. I'd still wait til you move out though, so you can break it to her by saying "I've been doing it for a year without any issues," rather than having her see you do it, which is going to make her anxious and upset.
This isn't a troll thread is it? I got a pang of suspicion suddenly lol.

Yeah, I'm the internet tough guy... Whatever you say, "Sarge."

????? < when that is at the end of a sentence it means it is a question.
Your welcome.

????? < when that is at the end of a sentence it means it is a question.
Your welcome.

If you're honestly asking, then fine. But you have to see where your question sounds sarcastic and demeaning.

Also, "your" implies possession. I think YOU'RE looking for the conjunction of "you are."

YOU'RE welcome.

This isn't a troll thread is it? I got a pang of suspicion suddenly lol.

Seems to me a lot of replies are.

Sarge, you came in here and "asked a question" that was clearly answered in my original post. Regardless of the punctuation you chose, the way it was written was demeaning. You changed "I want my mom to be comfortable" to "I need my mom's permission" and then made fun of the result.

In English there is such a combination "to be welcome" which doesn't require a passive form. It's also an interjection...... it is a synonym of "not at all" "don't mention it":neener:

I have open carried for about 40 years and I'm not changing any time soon, like ever. Since I can carry in any manner I choose, without the need for permits, unnecessary fees or red tape of any lind in my state, it's unlikely I'll ever conceal unless it's a back up weapon in addition to my hip holster.

Also, "your" implies possession. I think YOU'RE looking for the conjunction of "you are."

YOU'RE welcome.
This is a gun forum, not a classroom.:rolleyes:

I have open carried for about 40 years and I'm not changing any time soon, like ever. Since I can carry in any manner I choose, without the need for permits, unnecessary fees or red tape of any lind in my state, it's unlikely I'll ever conceal unless it's a back up weapon in addition to my hip holster.

Wow! I'm suprised that you would carry that long after getting beat up so many times and losing your gun to thieves! :eek:

Good Gosh, this should be closed by now.

Hang in there Skribs.

This is a gun forum, not a classroom.

It would still be nice if people showed a middle school level education. Or do they teach that difference in elementary school? I forget.

We need to stop being a nation that doesn't care about education and simply shows its ignorance at every turn.

Before it's closed I think you should consider one thing that really goes beyond the OC vs. CC debate...

It's your mother's house, she's worried about you attracting unwanted attention to it. Despite whether you believe her worries are justified or not, do you think you're really in the right just ignoring her concerns and frustration? Turn the table and consider a few years from now when you have your own home, and your mother will undoubtedly want you to do things a certain way--you'll want her to respect the fact that it is your home just as much as she would appreciate you respecting the fact that you're in her home.

Sorry I had to bring it up, but I think it's an important aspect that was overlooked. Don't want to sound like a perfect son here either... I just know that after losing my mother I've considered a lot of things similar to this that I wish I could take back just to have made her life a little easier.

So I mean, yeah you might want to make a political statement here... But what's more important, saving your mother some worry or making a political statement?

I am moving out very soon Kenny, but yeah I was at least waiting for that.