[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

You want to know what grinds my gears? You want to know what really sets me off?

This statement from Thomas Jefferson:

"No man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

While it's not the statement that irritates me. It's an awesome statement that I'm going to put as a back ground on my computer. And yet, it irritates me, because this is from one of out fore-fathers, but the politicians who're "supposed to be" following in their foot steps are trying to take away something that's been our ammended right since the birth of this country.

What gives? What are they afraid of? What have they to hide if they are trying to take our rights?

I'm not starting this thread as a bash-on-and-hate-our-politicians thread. I'm merely venting to a crowd who has a sentiment towards the 2A rights.

Thoughts? Or am I just getting worked up over nothing?

[hso]

After nearly 4 years here you're just now outraged by the illogical nature of the Anti?

I went from puzzlement to outrage to grim determination to counter this irrational position in 1993. Most of us are long past outrage.

[357 Terms]

I have 20+ guns and a lifetime permit to carry them pretty much anywhere in my state ( and 2 dozen others)...no problem here.

[JellyJar]

Freedom and liberty cannot live in words written on paper with dried ink but can only live in the hearts of the people. Should the people let freedom and liberty die in their hearts then freedom and liberty will perish no matter what those words may say!

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

It's more of a "finally sinking in" sort of thing. I like that statement JellyJar. It just sickens me that our own "polititians," people who're supposed to fight for our rights, are literally trying to take them, minus a few.

Where have our morals and beliefs gone? Why the betrayal of these? Different beliefs, or is it because of the lobbyists, and the money? If it's the latter, then they're dispicable sell-outs who need to re-evaluate why they're in the government, if for anything but the right reasons...

[hso]

I think you're over idealizing politicians. The great leaders have always been in the minority of politicians.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Can anyone give me some ideas to help out in this fight to educate? Last I checked, I was still a member of the NRA, if not, I know what I'm going to do with birthday money (if any).

[kozak6]

Thoughts? Or am I just getting worked up over nothing?

Well, is there anything in particular you are getting worked up about, or is it just strangely timed general frustration?

Since Clinton got out of the White House, the 2nd Amendment has been relatively secure at the Federal level, and we've even made advances. This is particularly notable in the face of the panic concerning the current administration.

At the state level, things vary wildly. In my state, the 2nd Amendment has made tremendous advances, although I understand that other states are not so fortunate.

It seems like things are advancing in Iowa too. In regards to CCW, you guys recently became a shall issue state.

Is something specific bothering you?

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

The things bothering me are things that happened with the 2A rights since the beginnings of this country have been bothering me, it's nothing recent. The Clinton era? I wasn't old enough to appreciate what was going on. I wasn't serious about guns until about 14, and the Clinton era? I was between 5 and 12.

I'm anxious to get my CCW. I'm happy it's a shall issue now. Soon as I get the ability (funds) I'm filling out the application.

[MCMXIautomatic]

I wouldn't say that you're getting worked up over nothing, but the constant threat to our civil liberties is hardly news. You can bash politicians all you want, you'll certainly get no objection from me. I doubt you'll find anyone on this forum who doesn't feel the same way.

The problem is that we have politicians in the first place, rather than statesmen. Unfortunately, we've never lived in a perfect world. It doesn't matter how high a nation's ideals are or how good its system of government is. Positions of power, by their nature, have always had a strong tendency to either attract corruption or breed corruption, going back to ancient times. The Roman Republic is a prime example. No system is or ever has been air-tight, because governments are just as imperfect as the people who create them. Once a man has tasted the sweet wine of power, he'll become reluctant to contain his instincts and drink himself to drunken insanity, unabashedly trying to undermine his legal constraints. But fortunately, evil ambitions will always have the willpower of good, righteous men and women to counterbalance them. It's the natural order of the world.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Which I think is rediculous. No one man should have that amount of power. Which is why I'm thankful for checks and balances.

[CTPhil]

Politicians for the most part take positions that they think will keep people voting for them. The average person in our ever urbanizing society doesn't think much about guns, and when gun crime happens, the knee jerk reaction is to blame the gun. Unfortunately knee jerk reactions have largely taken the place of reasoned thought these days.

[Mike1234567]

Can anyone give me some ideas to help out in this fight to educate?
Of course. Tell everyone you know about...

www.thehighroad.org
www.oathkeepers.org

[Baba Louie]

For me, my wake up call was back in '68 when I turned 13. I'd never seen my dad and uncles (all hard core Dems) so worked up. I knew about the assassinations and the race riots and made the mistake of telling Dad "2 + 2 = 4 don't it?" (figuring assassinations and riots intelligently equal gun control) and proceeded to get a lesson on the 2nd and this nations history. :eek:

Common sense. When I hear these words I thank the Good Lord that our forefathers had much more than "common sense" at their command in regards to RKBAs.

Thoughts? Gain as much factual knowledge as you can in regards to the 2nd. Do the same for all potential elected officials. Discuss with like minded and opposite minded people. Sway those you can, plant seeds in the others minds, vote all the bums out of office regularly (you'll have to as once they get in office, they like it as it beats working for a living).

Finally, Take newbies shooting and discuss all of the above once the fun is over.

[sig220mw]

Also join the NRA if not already a member. If already a member try to sign up a friend or family member. The antis won't hold much sway when there are more and more of us and we speak up.

[browneu]

Don't flame me too bad but I'll admit that I used to be an anti. I thought gun laws were acceptable since in theory it restricted only criminals. Then I bought my first gun and the light bulb went off in my head. Gun laws only restricted me and I'm not a criminal. Now I'm angry like the rest of you, probably more so since I realize how foolish I was.

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk

[Owen Sparks]

The use of weapons is an extention of your natural right to defend your life, liberty and property.

[Bojangles7]

Don't blame the politicians, it's the ignorant sheeple that put them in power that are the problem. The ADHD public that demands 10 second sound bites instead of intellectual debates are the problem.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

All statements taken since my last, I'm amazed at the ignorance, the lack of common sense, and the sheer will to be a sheep, that the anti- nation has become. It almost makes me sick.

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Look at this in another vein. It isn't our rights they are after. No matter what happens, we'll always have our rights. It's the power those rights give us that is being destroyed. It is the power those arms give us that help keep us free. It's the power of those arms that despots, tyrants, dictators, and other megalomaniacal ideologists need to deprive us of before they can place themselves in the position of master - using the power of the arms they will always have.

We need those arms and the power they give us to remain free. We'll always have the right to them, but deprived of those arms is to be deprived of the power to fend off those despots, tyrants, dictators, and other megalomaniacal ideologists. Though we'll always have the right to arms, we must never allow them to be taken away nor allow anyone to interfere with our acquisition of them. Knowing the past, I'll not surrender any arms and march less prepared into the future. I shall always strive to acquire more.

We must always be equally or better armed than those we place in power.

Don't forget training.

Woody

[Owen Sparks]

Stockholm syndrome is rampant in this country. Many people will automatically side with the percieved authorities even when it is in their best interest not to.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

We can not be equally or better armed than those we place in power, because they took that from us. Look at them, they have an army at their command with fully-automatic rifles, machineguns, what have you. We are relegated to bolts and semi's, with a "select few" NFA owners. If the scenario required, theoretically, we'd probably be the better shots, but who's going to risk taking the better shot if our heads are hunkered down by automatic fire?

This is all hypothetical, but you see where I'm going with this. We can not, statistically and logically speaking, be better armed than those we give power.

[Mike1234567]

^^^ Worse yet is the folks trained to use those weapons are, more often than not, indoctrinated to use them against anyone challenging big brother.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

^^^ My thoughts and worries exactly.

[Iramo94]

challenging big brother.
This bothered me, Mike. It's nothing against you, of course.
Last time I checked, the job was "protect the Constitution", not "protect the government." Also, the phrase "foreign and domestic" comes to mind. It's pretty sad, really. I hope someone way high up in the military is as freedom-loving as those of us on this forum, so that when the government really starts throwing crap at everyone, the army will do its job.
/end rant.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

God I hope so. I don't want to have a fight in my lifetime or in my childrens lifetime, or my grandchildrens lifetime.

[Baba Louie]

My thoughts and worries exactly.Yet there are several million retired military who, while may be a bit long in the tooth, ALL took the OATH, meant it and never "UN-took it" if ya know what I mean. Look to them. Seriously.

Use the ballot box, use the soap box but always remember this: Freedom and Liberty are scary and not everyone's cup o tea. Not all the colonists wanted that freedom or liberty or even deserved it perhaps. Their spawn have grown as have the Sons of Liberty crowd (witness the recent TEA Party gatherings).

Personally, I think you picked the right crowd and the correct passion. Now spread the joy. And maybe get some training classes under your belt. You meet like minded fellows and better yourself in the process. Same may be said for competition events. Or training newbies.

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Know what those ballot boxes and soap boxes are made out of? Empty cartridge boxes.

Woody

[Owen Sparks]

Unregistered possession of the nations service rifle, the M16 carries a ten year prison sentence. Is this what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they adopted the 2A?

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

If we have 2A rights, we shouldn't be punished for the possession of any firearm, only the illegal and immoral use of one.

[camar]

Well Owen Sparks we are on the same page. Let me go further and ask why does the NRA and members of this and other forums always preface a shooting incidente with "legal firearm". When at the turn of the century a person getting out of prison was given his firearm back.
Why do people apply for permission to carry a firearm? When it is our God given right to protect ourselves?
So how many here actually practice the true intent of the 2d Amendment? Please only answer to yourselves and don't reply here.
I tore up my membership to the NRA when they said that they "could live with the 1968 gun control laws".
Charlton Heston in the 1960's went on TV in California and said that people don't need AK-47's or any other assult rifles.
Also notice what he held in his hand when he said "from my cold dead hands" or words to that affect.
We, as Americans, have allowed this government to pass laws that 100 yrs. ago would not of even been brought up for a vote.
The true meaning and putting it into practice of the 2d Amendment begins with that person starring back at you and me in the mirror.
We need to not be afraid of the conscequences and put into practice what the true meaning of what the 2d Amendment means.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

It's rediculous what this country has become, that we, as legal firearms owners, suffer, bend over backwards for the sheeple who are simply afraid of firearms. We shouldn't be pressed upon if someone is afraid. If they are so afraid, they can stay away! That's as simple as it gets!

You get people whining and crying because "there's a guy with a gun, he's walking into my store, OMG!!!" When the man clearly has it holstered, carrying it in a non-threatening way.

People need to get over somethings. We shouldn't have these restrictions on our 2A. The only reason they're there is because someone fears. The cowards. It's almost like that kid in 2nd grade that no one likes, who is always tattling on the other kids doing something that's totally harmless, but the kid thinks is wrong or dangerous.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

I'm not saying they're brainwashed. But there's always the possibility of anything. Nothing seems to be impossible with people anymore.

[General Tso]

I wish the NRA would stop with all the political anti-Obama stuff and concentrate on fixing things like the 68 GCA and the stupid "sporting purpose" stuff.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

+1 for General Tso's statement.

[MCMXIautomatic]

In regards to the people vs. the government, we do have numbers on our side and I would also think superior combined resources. Success would depend on how willing people were to stand firm and not be oppressed.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Yes, but morale and will power can only stand up to so much.

[Mike1234567]

This bothered me, Mike. It's nothing against you, of course.
Last time I checked, the job was "protect the Constitution", not "protect the government." Also, the phrase "foreign and domestic" comes to mind. It's pretty sad, really. I hope someone way high up in the military is as freedom-loving as those of us on this forum, so that when the government really starts throwing crap at everyone, the army will do its job.
/end rant.
No worries Iramo94. I hope you're right. My concern is many of those who take an oath to defend the Constitution have no idea what that means. They're good people but they're taught to fight and follow orders.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

My concern is many of those who take an oath to defend the Constitution have no idea what that means. They're good people but they're taught to fight and follow orders.

This is the text book definition of my cousin. He will follow any order his CO gives him, and was assigned to bomb clean up in Afghanistan, and just got back last year. He did a lot of stupid <deleted> because his CO said so.

[CTPhil]

This thread seems to be drifting between ignorance of the general population and willful anti gun action on the part of the government. Personally I think it all starts with the people. Ignorance is the right word. There are a whole lot of people who have never even held a gun, and this group has for the most part never really even thought about the issue in a meaningful way. They're just knee jerk reactors. Gun control doesn't affect their lifestyle, so who cares? Sure, let's get rid of guns.

The good news is that there is a large group of antis who IMO can change their opinion with education. They are not married to anti gun ideology, they're just mentally lazy, or just too caught up in their own lives to really get informed. Let's educate them!

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Mortablunt, I like what you've got to say. If only there were a way we could get them to see sense and get them to stop their tyrannical restrictions.

[ErikO]

As a gun loving Liberal, I agree that either the NRA goes after the actual gun restrictions or else just comes out and openly states that their PAC is for the gun manufacturers first and rights second. After that they should take back the CMP and get back to basics, getting citizens trained to hit a man sized target at 100 yards with iron sights. :)

As far as those who have sworn an oath, I fear that they are much more afraid of Bubba in Leavenworth Prison than breaking their oath. Then again, the last MOH recipient that was at his own ceremony got it for disobeying a bad order so there is still hope. :)

[we are not amused]

While I sympathize with the frustration of people on this site with many of our current elected and unelected rulers. It has been a long term problem, and not one that purely extends to our 2nd Amendment Rights.

Every part of our Constitution is under attack by people who are unsatisfied with our current society, and who seek to change society.

Many people fear the First Amendment right to Freedom of religion, the freedom to peaceably assemble, to petition Congress for redress of grievances, the freedom of the press.

The Forth and Fifth Amendments have repeatably been under attack by various authorities, the use of "no knock" warrants served in the middle of the night strike me as particularly obnoxious, also the seizure of property without a hearing, (drug forfeiture and related seizures).

There currently isn't a single Article of the Bill of Rights, with the possible exception of the Third, which is not under attack by "Progressive" opponents of the Constitution.

There are plans and attempts to seize control of the Internet, all for the "good" of course, limit the political free speech with "Election Campaign laws", impose what kind of car we can drive, light bulb, shower head, and toilet we can use.

All of which would have had the Founding Fathers gathering muskets and talking revolution.

We often forget that the Founding Fathers attempted to limit government, realizing it was a two edge sword. It could do great good and great evil. Sometimes we have a tendency to give away political power to groups who promise "a chicken in every pot", "crime prevention", "freedom from poverty", "war on drugs" and "Affordable Health Care", without looking at what it means to our freedoms and rights.

[Deanimator]

I went from puzzlement to outrage to grim determination to counter this irrational position in 1993. Most of us are long past outrage.
When I first got interested in 2nd Amendment issues in the '60s in grammar school, it was like Stalingrad. We were fighting for sheer survival.

Now, it's Iwo Jima. There's not much doubt about the outcome. We know what needs to be done. We know how to do it. We just have to resolve to stick things out to their final conclusion.

[ErikO]

While I sympathize with the frustration of people on this site with many of our current elected and unelected rulers. It has been a long term problem, and not one that purely extends to our 2nd Amendment Rights.

Every part of our Constitution is under attack by people who are unsatisfied with our current society, and who seek to change society.

Many people fear the First Amendment right to Freedom of religion, the freedom to peaceably assemble, to petition Congress for redress of grievances, the freedom of the press.

The Forth and Fifth Amendments have repeatably been under attack by various authorities, the use of "no knock" warrants served in the middle of the night strike me as particularly obnoxious, also the seizure of property without a hearing, (drug forfeiture and related seizures).

There currently isn't a single Article of the Bill of Rights, with the possible exception of the Third, which is not under attack by "Progressive" opponents of the Constitution.

There are plans and attempts to seize control of the Internet, all for the "good" of course, limit the political free speech with "Election Campaign laws", impose what kind of car we can drive, light bulb, shower head, and toilet we can use.

All of which would have had the Founding Fathers gathering muskets and talking revolution.

We often forget that the Founding Fathers attempted to limit government, realizing it was a two edge sword. It could do great good and great evil. Sometimes we have a tendency to give away political power to groups who promise "a chicken in every pot", "crime prevention", "freedom from poverty", "war on drugs" and "Affordable Health Care", without looking at what it means to our freedoms and rights.
To be honest, most of the attacks on the 4th and 5th were started with the War on Drugs, which is defiantely not a Liberal issue. The real threat to our rights under the Constitution is from those who currently have the power and wealth in this country to make changes that are against the spirit and word of the Constitution and they own both parties. They are the ones that hide from public view; the Koch brothers and their John Birch Society money as well as Soros on the left. There are more, but not too many, really.

Don't get distracted by the puppets, watch the body attached to the arm that is protruding from the puppets. With some potential exceptions, none of us here are members of the 1% that control 30-40% of the wealth of this country.

[TexasRifleman]

I like to read a good heated debate between people who are passionate about what they believe.

Please make sure personal attacks don't bleed into this. Attack the argument, not the person, or the thread won't survive.

Thanks for your help.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

I did not start this thread to have members attack each other, thank you TexasRifleman, for getting to that point first.

I agree with what everyone is saying so far. We have so many problems that need fixing in this country, it's almost like we don't know where to start. Our economic deficiencies would probably be fixed if we, as a conglomerate, kept our jobs in the United States instead of outsourcing. Sure, it's a little more costly, but would you rather have people who're proud to do what they do and do a darned good job at it? Or would you rather pay pennies on the dollar per hour for something that's hit or miss?

I was under the impression through my American History class in high school that we were initially intended to be an isolationist country. Why aren't we now? Why haven't we been in close to 100 years? It seems that we've always had the need to be in the other country's business, without fully grasping the problems with our own. We're out "saving the world" when we should be saving ourselves.

This goes hand in hand that most countries don't like us, because at the same time, we jump into conflicts around the world trying to resolve them, when we've got nothing to do with them, and if we do resolve a conflict, one side of the discrepancy usually gets short changed in some ways. The way we help out the Isreali people (I'm not complaining here, they've become one of our best allies) irritates and stirs the pot of the Muslims who dislike the Jewish peoples. We westerners took away land from the Palestinians to give to the Jews, and that made things hairy for a while, which it really hasn't gotten terribly much better. They're STILL having the occasional skirmish over there, and in the wrong Muslim's eyes, we're zionist infidels not worthy of life.

Is it me, or would most of out problems be manageable if we were to have kept to ourselves?

(*** Pearl Harbor is pretty much drove us to WW2, and the elimination of Hitler was a necessity. I'm glad we participated in that war.)

[TexasRifleman]

Difficult to do I know, but we also have to leave party politics out.

We'll all have to work together to keep this discussion going :)

[ErikO]

ACk, got cut off in mid-reply. :)

Those are valid points. As far as the Koches, Soros and thier ilk, we really don't know what they have done; their ability to obfuscate their money trail makes this difficult. The effects are easy to see - a lack of accountability for those 'job creators' that have yet to do so in this country in any numbers greater than the Feds have and using tax dollars as a weapon against those who need to have them spent on them in times of emergency.

The bigger issue of the War on Drugs has been the Executive Office's encroachment on the 4th and 5th amendments from both sides of the party, with the red side of the party having the most tenure on the problem and teh bigger problem of the SCOTUS ruling that being accused of certain crimes cancels out a person's access to their 4th and 5th amendment rights. And then there's the (un)Patriot Act...

If you took my last post as an attack, I appologize. I'm just trying to chase away some shadows as your last post has done as well. This is why open discourse amonst Americans is so hard to do these days, 'They' are trying to keep us at each other's throats as opposed to being able to compare notes so their grasp of power doesn't collapse or worse.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

ErikO, IMHO, This:

This is why open discourse amonst Americans is so hard to do these days, 'They' are trying to keep us at each other's throats as opposed to being able to compare notes so their grasp of power doesn't collapse or worse.


I applaud you.

And this could go in the direction of 2A issues as well. Thoughts?

[ErikO]

And yes, my post makes less sense with the other replies missing as well...

[ErikO]

Yeah, my 'pet project' these days is trying to break down the walls between Liberals and Conservatives to get REAL pressure exerted from a RKBA stance. This is something that needs to be much more than just 'Republicans Good, Democrats Bad' typical arguement about Gun Restriction laws. Good Sense =/= Common Sense when gun laws come in.

Honestly, the FUD from the NRA-ILA is doing it's job to keep chewing on the heels of the folks in Congress to Not Infringe, but it also works to silence those like myself that don't feel that it's a 'libtard's fault' that these bad laws make in into discussion let alone onto the books. Their saber-waving did great things for Olin, Federal and several other ammo and componant manufacturers in '08, why can't they use that power to bring ALL gun owners into the discussion?

It's a shame that groups like Pink Pistols and the LGC need to exists to ensure 'buy-in' from 'non-standard' gun owners and shooting enthusiasts.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

What is shameful is that our Congressmen and persons of "power" could forget our Constitution so easily, and pass these rediculous laws and restrictions. It's not just today, or the Clinton administration, but the NFA of 34, 68, and 86 as well.

The sheer lack of sense in all these laws, ie requiring a dealer to report 5 transfers within a specific period to a person to the authorities... IT'S NOT THEIR RIGHT TO KNOW! We, as "free peoples" of the United States have the right to privacy, as well as the right to keep and bear arms, and that itself should be self-evident that no restrictions should be resonably placed on firearm ownership

[Neverwinter]

I agree with what everyone is saying so far. We have so many problems that need fixing in this country, it's almost like we don't know where to start.
The reason that it is difficult to know where to start is because of the inertia that the current prevailing interests have. When they use a false flag astroturf movement like the Tea Party against us, their warfare is more evident.

From the supporters who have been brainwashed into believing that unlimited campaign contributions should be protected free speech, to being misled into thinking that Net Neutrality is the government taking control of the internet, the corporate motivations surge there despite peripherally being associated with RKBA. They want the pro-gun support to bolster their numbers, when it isn't part of their core motivations.

It's that delusion regarding the campaign contributions which is self-destructive, since it limits meaningful change in the ability of the people to interact with their elected government.

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Good point. Anyone try to convince the politicians that what they're doing isn't working?

[TexasRifleman]

OK I guess the warnings to avoid party political terms and conversations didn't take.

Sorry, this one has to stop.