Experts - how fast can you shoot accurate follow-up shots?


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Skribs
September 21, 2011, 01:36 AM
I am farm from an expert marksman (I can shoot good enough for what I need, but I definitely won't be winning any competitions), so I'm wondering from those that do shoot a lot - how fast can you shoot?

I ask this from the perspective of an author who is writing an action series, and I want to be able to realistically represent the superb skills of my character. If my numbers are too slow, then he looks inept, and despite my character being an unrealistically awesome person, I don't want the numbers to look too fast.

So, how fast can you get accurate follow-up shots (and number of follow-up shots) on target?

EDIT: Forgot to mention, please include the caliber. Obviously .45 shooters will have a different answer than 9mm shooters.

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56hawk
September 21, 2011, 02:50 AM
With my compensated .38 Supers I've managed .09 split times for a double tap. Otherwise anywhere from .1 to .2 of a second. Really depends on range and size of the target.

GCBurner
September 21, 2011, 03:17 AM
Jerry Miculek is the real expert in fast and accurate follow up shots:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giSaNiQ-Wb4

StrawHat
September 21, 2011, 06:39 AM
As has been posted, it depends on range and targets. Also the firearm. Oh, yeah, and who else shows up to shoot! I was able to win a few competitions with some real slow times and lose some with some balzing fast times.

I competed with a revolver and was happy to get times under two seconds for six shots and six hits out to 15 yards. Out farther than that and my times slowed down some. 12 shots/hits under 8 seconds were not uncommon. I used a 38 Special and a 45 ACP in competition.

JM is quick and he has trained for it. He may even be quicker than Ed McGivern but since EM is gone, we'll never know.

Chris Rhines
September 21, 2011, 06:56 AM
Shooting into an 8" plate at seven yards, I can hit 0.17-0.18sec splits pretty consistently. My Bill Drill times (6 shots from the holster, open carry, 8" plate at 7 yards) run about 2.0 seconds. That's with a mostly-stock S&W M&P9 Pro.

0.15 splits are very, very fast for a stock pistol. Less than that would be pretty unbelievable, and I'd have to wonder why your character isn't out representing the US at the IPSC World Shoot... ;)

-C

Lawdawg45
September 21, 2011, 07:48 AM
For me, it's my .45 colt single action. I carried a wheel gun as a LEO and used a semi auto for competition, but my time in SASS also made me proficient and comfortable with a SA, and while it may be slower than a wheel gun or semi auto, the follow up shot is as accurate as the initial shot. In other words, missing quickly is of no value in a gun fight.;)

LD

Sam1911
September 21, 2011, 07:57 AM
0.15 splits are very, very fast for a stock pistol. Less than that would be pretty unbelievable, and I'd have to wonder why your character isn't out representing the US at the IPSC World Shoot...


Awesome response! :)

BullfrogKen and I were playing around one night with his .38 Super Commander and I managed some splits as low as 0.12, but not consistently.

Skribs
September 21, 2011, 10:47 AM
Hmmm...I wasn't expecting ALL the responses to be from revolver shooters, although I'm learning that if you are really good, you should be using a more manually-operated firearm.

Okay, getting more specific: in my book, the character is using a semi-auto, and it's not exactly a competition gun. The specific scenario is 5 shots on 5 targets with a 9mm. He's not really doing this at a competition (I only mentioned competitions up above to say "I wouldn't win one"), but rather at a private range when he's showing off his skills for a new group of people he's working with.

Thanks for the responses so far, though. While they didn't answer the question in my head, they did answer the one in the OP, and those videos were sure interesting to watch.

Sam1911
September 21, 2011, 10:51 AM
Not all the responses are from revolver shooters. .38 Super is an autopistol cartridge. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Super)

5 shots on 5 targets (at 5-7 yards) with a common 9mm service handgun should be do-able in about 2.5-3.5 seconds for a decent shooter, drawing from the holster.

Skribs
September 21, 2011, 11:14 AM
My mistake.

David E
September 21, 2011, 12:29 PM
9mm or .45 doesn't matter, as long as the shooter is properly skilled and practiced, which I presume your hero is.

Jerry's record times average .14 splits (time between shots) with a revolver.

There is usually a difference between splits and transition times (time between targets.

Your hero, if setting up a drill to impress folks, would find one that's fun to watch and plays to his strengths.

It appears to me right now that you need to add more detail. Why not tell us which 9mm?

Using your suggested drill, let's add some specifics and say he sets up 5 steel IPSC targets one yard apart edge to edge in a semi-circle, all targets 7 yds away. Using frangible rds, he will double tap each one, reload, give each one a head shot, at the last head shot, someone yells "Four!" he reloads again and does a six shot Bill Drill into target #4

At signal, he draws his M&P Pro 9mm from a concealable KyTac Counter Attack rig. He engages the right-most target in .68, his split is .14 and he has .22 transitions as he sweeps all the targets. (2.26) He seamlessly reloads in 1.2 and hits all the head shots dead center with .29 splits. (2.36) Another reload at 1.1 before he Bill Drills #4 with .14 splits. (1.66-time "started"at last head shot)

All hits are in the "A" zone, of course!

Total time: 6.28

This level is extremely competent, but not impossible. If you must, make his first shot .75, his splits .16-.17, transitions .27, his reloads 1.4-1.5, his headshot transitions .40. This level is still very good.

I suggest you go to some USPSA matches and see what some of the Production Division Grandmasters are doing.

Skribs
September 21, 2011, 01:58 PM
Thanks, David, that's what I was looking for. I don't want to give too many details while it's still in the works, though :P. That's why I was starting off vague and getting more specific as I needed to. It's not specifically a gun-focused book (it's a sci-fi, so most of the guns used wouldn't be discussed on this board anyway), but when they are using human weapons, I want to show as much accuracy as I can.

gunsablazin
September 21, 2011, 03:34 PM
My splits run .18-.20 on 7yd Bills Drill, that is about as fast as I can go either with my 1911 in .45 or my Glock 35 .40 with light target loads. That works out to about 5 accurate shots a second. I'm no Jerry Miculek, but I am a master class IDPA shooter.

Skribs
September 21, 2011, 03:56 PM
Ironically, I don't think I needed to make this post, as I will be going with the numbers I had in the first draft (which this thread supports).

Still, I like numbers, so reading about numbers is interesting.

Ankeny
September 21, 2011, 06:10 PM
Shooting into an 8" plate at seven yards, I can hit 0.17-0.18sec splits pretty consistently. My Bill Drill times (6 shots from the holster, open carry, 8" plate at 7 yards) run about 2.0 seconds. That's with a mostly-stock S&W M&P9 Pro.

0.15 splits are very, very fast for a stock pistol. Less than that would be pretty unbelievable, and I'd have to wonder why your character isn't out representing the US at the IPSC World Shoot... Pretty much spot on for multiple shots on the same target.

There is usually a difference between splits and transition times (time between targets.) That is correct. I think transitions on IPSC targets spaced one yard apart edge to edge at a distance of 10 yards from the shooter (such as on an El Pres.) will run .18-.20 for the better shooters. Does that sound about right David and Chris? Here is a link to a middle aged fat guy shooting 3 targets with a .45 1911 with times close to those mentioned. Splits and transitions. (http://www.rtconnect.net/~rankeny/2times3.WMV)

DoubleTapDrew
September 21, 2011, 06:39 PM
This one is pretty impressive, el presidente (6 shots in 3 targets, reload, 6 shots in 3 targets) in about 3 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAnnK63PqF8

chris in va
September 21, 2011, 06:41 PM
Try out your local IDPA match. That will give you plenty of fodder to work with.:D

JohnBiltz
September 21, 2011, 07:44 PM
I'd just have him do a standard drill like the El Presedente. There is plenty video and data and articles about it on the internet and for anyone smart on the subject it tells them how good your guy is and lets you dial in how good that is. Its what Coriera did in Monster Hunters, different drill with a shotgun and it worked quite well.

ny32182
September 21, 2011, 07:58 PM
For me (IDPA 9mm MA) I do 7yd Bill drills with the following splits with my SSP gear (G34 very close to stock everything, ~129pf ammo):

.16 (crazy, but lots of them are in... too fast for optimal scoring however)
.18 (fast, but more reliable than .16s)
.20 (quick/reliable)
.22 (taking your time/guaranteed zero hit)

The draw is also a key factor of course; I run the whole thing in about 2.4-2.5. My buddy and I went to OH for a class with Vogel last week, spent time running Bill Drills from several distances, and with Production gear he was doing them in about 2.2. The difference was the draw, not the splits. In competition, you "split for show, transition for dough." Vogel is a national/world champion in USPSA and IDPA, and everything I've seen from him so far you will seldom find him splitting faster than .20 or so in competition setting with Production/SSP gear, and often more than that. Getting the hits is more valuable than getting a .16 split.

ny32182
September 21, 2011, 08:12 PM
If your scenario is five shots on five targets you are talking about transitions which will be totally different and unique to the size and spacing of the targets. "Steel Challenge" is a sport that uses that kind of target layout.

Maple_City_Woodsman
September 21, 2011, 08:39 PM
This depends entirely on the gun, and what your definition of 'accurate' is. For me:

If 'Accurate' means that all rounds hit somewhere on the target at 10 yards, then the answer is about two shots per second with anything up to the power of a 45 Colt.

If 'Accurate' means that all rounds hit within 3" of each other at 10 yards, then the answer is more like a second per shot with my 45's, a little less with one of my 9mm's, and however fast I feel like it with my 5.7.

If we are talking about single COM shots on multiple targets, then I usually do it in about 2 seconds per target with my 45's, 1 second per target with a 9mm, and a little less than 1 second with a .22LR or the 5.7, provided the total arch isn't much over 45*.

But I'm not a competitive shooter.

David E
September 21, 2011, 09:43 PM
The El Prez doesn't have targets placed edge to edge. The original set-up has them 3 yards apart edge to edge. The current arrangement is ONE yard edge to edge.

Obviously, the further apart they are, the longer the transition and split.

Any transition under 1/4 second is pretty swift.

BullfrogKen
September 21, 2011, 09:46 PM
BullfrogKen and I were playing around one night with his .38 Super Commander and I managed some splits as low as 0.12, but not consistently.

Yes, that was quite the fun evening. We'll have to do pure speed drills again sometime this Fall.

Depends on the distance, of course . . .


At conversation distance, I usually set a pace to run accurate splits on a single target right around .20. Add in multiple targets, depending on the spacing add maybe another .05 to .10 seconds for a transition.




.16 (crazy, but lots of them are in... too fast for optimal scoring however)
.18 (fast, but more reliable than .16s)
.20 (quick/reliable)
.22 (taking your time/guaranteed zero hit)

^^^^^
That's a pretty good judge of time right there. I find the same measures bear out for me as well. Except I'm not skilled enough to do it out to 7 yards. 3 yards, most certainly. 4 yards, and I'm pushing and concentrating very hard. Out past four and I'm dropping points or slowing down. That's the way it goes.


And I'm an IDPA Marksman because I really don't give a crap about the rules and rankings. I compete with a Colt Lightweight Commander in 38 Super.

David E
September 22, 2011, 12:48 AM
I had a .08 at a match once.......once. Even hit the 10 yd target with both shots!

Ankeny
September 22, 2011, 10:46 AM
I had a .08 at a match once.......once. Trigger bounce or on purpose? :D

Sam1911
September 22, 2011, 11:01 AM
Trigger bounce or on purpose?

Ahhh, beat me to it! I was going to say anyone who breaks 0.1 in my matches gets an automatic DQ for malfunctioning equipment! :neener:

David E
September 22, 2011, 01:23 PM
It was actually on purpose. I had a bad run up to that point and was just trying to make up for lost time. I knew it was fast, so asked them to review the shots. The interesting part to me was, both hits were on target. That meant I was back on target in that .08 time frame. So why do I miss when I shoot slower?

I've never had a .09, but I've had a handful of .10's on up. Obviously, the slower, the more I've had.

You'd have to DQ Taran Butler every match. He's got one of the fastest trigger fingers around.

Dr.Rob
September 22, 2011, 01:38 PM
I've seen a couple different shooters in IDPA make a Colt .38 super sound like a machinegun it was so fast, but in a very controlled manner.

ny32182
September 22, 2011, 01:47 PM
There is no one on planet Earth that is going to be doing consistent intentional .08 splits... Taran Butler or anyone else.

BullfrogKen
September 22, 2011, 01:51 PM
.08 splits sometimes "happen".


But someone who can perform it on demand . . . I'd have a tough time believing it. I'm not from Missouri, but you would have to show me.

Sam1911
September 22, 2011, 01:53 PM
That's 750 rds. per minute, for those keeping track. :what:

David E
September 22, 2011, 04:23 PM
On my case, I made clear I did it ONCE.

Could I do it again while firing a gun the way it should be fired? Sure.....eventually, but not on demand.

Taran (and others) typically shoot in the .12 range, often below. I never said he could do a .08 on demand.

ny32182
September 22, 2011, 04:40 PM
I've watched more than one national champ, and a few not far outside that level, and none of them have even come close to a .12 split when I've been watching.

2zulu1
September 22, 2011, 04:57 PM
In cold weather, cold Colt 1911/.38Super and cold hand; 4 shots between .16 to .21 seconds. Carry loads are N105/125gr XTPs ~1491fps.

I haven't timed warm weather shots or with both hands.

My practice head shots are on moving rattlesnakes.

:D

David E
September 22, 2011, 05:09 PM
I've watched more than one national champ, and a few not far outside that level, and none of them have even come close to a .12 split when I've been watching.

Um, ok. But I have.

BullfrogKen
September 22, 2011, 05:11 PM
Splits like that are certainly achievable. I've done sub-.20 splits in training classes often. They were deliberate, as in "time me, let's see how fast I can do this drill".

Personally . . . this is for me . . if I post .18 splits on targets in competition for score that's a really good day.

Really good.

I don't pay so much attention to my splits as my ability to move off the force on a good stage. I use my local IDPA matches as an opportunity to test my skills against my own personal skill level as a competitor.


If someone does better than me, I'm OK with it. I'm not looking to beat everyone else.


I'm looking to place at a certain level that I personally determine is adequate.

ny32182
September 22, 2011, 05:52 PM
Let's see the video. :)

In the not-insignificant amount of time I've spent timing Vogel now, he bottoms out at about .18, which is a very long way from .12. There is a reason for that.

David E
September 22, 2011, 06:02 PM
Yeah, the reason is, he shoots a Glock!

Taran is widely known for his fast trigger finger. If this is news, then you need to go more matches.

Rob Leatham tops out at about .14, but he acknowledges there are people faster on the trigger than he.

Search YouTube for "Fast Bill Drill." The first one up (for my search) submitted by Parashooter40, shows a shooter drawing and firing six shots on target in 1.11. For the record, I know and shoot with both these guys.

These videos are not hard to find.

ny32182
September 22, 2011, 06:03 PM
I can pull the stock trigger on my Glock faster than .18, and I'm sure Vogel can too. That doesn't make it a good idea.

David E
September 22, 2011, 06:11 PM
I can pull the stock trigger on my Glock faster than .18, and I'm sure Vogel can too. That doesn't make it a good idea.

First you say he "bottoms out at .18, a far cry from .12," but now you're sure he can pull it faster than that...(just like you).......so which is it?

ny32182
September 22, 2011, 06:14 PM
Sorry, I thought the thread was about "how fast can you shoot accurate follow-up shots". There is something about that in the title.

David E
September 22, 2011, 10:35 PM
Good response.....:rolleyes:

Anyone 1/2 way decent can break .20 on a 7 yd IPSC target and keep them in the A zone.

Anyone decent can go .16

The very gifted can get to .12 and below.




Edited to use better verbiage.

ny32182
September 22, 2011, 11:13 PM
Lets see the .12 and below. 7yd Bill drill, production rig.

MrWesson
September 23, 2011, 12:40 AM
Depends on the gun but with my CCW(M&P9c) 10rds in a 8" ring at 10yds ~7seconds with no misses is about right.

Hangingrock
September 23, 2011, 08:53 AM
That's 750 rds. per minute, for those keeping track.
I believe with a M-14 on full auto I came close in decades past at ITR.:what:;)

David E
September 23, 2011, 12:19 PM
Lets see the .12 and below. 7yd Bill drill, production rig.

Dude, make up your mind. When I catch you in your own words and you have no rebuttal, you refer to the thread title instead.

I never said the .12 splits and under were fired by production guns. You cited a Glock as bottoming out at .18 in the hands of a National Champion, but then said that even you can shoot your Glock faster than that. :confused:

You asked for a video that shows such splits, I provided one, but it doesn't count because of his holster? :rolleyes:

ny32182
September 23, 2011, 02:20 PM
David, the whole thread is about "accurate" followup shots, with stock type guns, as presented by the OP.

Your video (missed your edit the first time) shows some impressive speedy trigger pulling, but only about 2 of those shots would be hits in a Bill drill from the looks of it.

I have personally occassionally recorded splits of .12-.15 with my own Glock, but that isn't the kind of thing I'm talking about since it doesn't produce consistently repeatable, reliable zeros, and I think we both know it. Have a good one.

Ankeny
September 23, 2011, 03:10 PM
Anyone 1/2 way decent can break .20 on a 7 yd IPSC target and keep them in the A zone.

Anyone decent can go .16

The very gifted can get to .12 and below. That mirrors my observations. Not worth arguing about.

cavman
September 23, 2011, 03:36 PM
Who was the guy in the TV show back in the 80's, who is a real shooter? (was it Brian enos?)

There is a youtube clip of him drawing and shooting multiple shots, and then placing the weapon on the dead man's chest and walks away.

That might help out to visually show what these guys can do

edit David E got it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMFM8SeW51E

David E
September 23, 2011, 03:37 PM
ny, apparently I nailed what the OP was after in Post #11, since he said "that's exactly what I was looking for" in Post #12

Everything else is about what is possible regarding splits.

You won't find too many, if any, .12 splits in IDPA, due to the scoring structure. But they are found with regularity in USPSA.

Ankeny won't tell you, but he is a Grandmaster in USPSA and as he said, his observations reflect my own.

Now, let's all go to the range and practice our splits!

David E
September 23, 2011, 03:42 PM
Who was the guy in the TV show back in the 80's, who is a real shooter?

There is a youtube clip of him drawing and shooting multiple shots, and then placing the weapon on the dead man's chest and walks away.

That might help out to visually show what these guys can do.

It was a Miami Vice episode, the shooter was Jim Zubiena (I think he was an "A" class at the time.)

There were no tricks in the filming, that's him doing it (with blanks). He said it required several takes because his latex gloves kept catching on the gun during the draw.

Ankeny
September 23, 2011, 08:15 PM
Then there is the briefcase scene from Collateral Damage. Briefcase Scene. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid=opyvQvCbk5w&v=UiqwF_Y9S5Q&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_620299) Looks smoking fast, but when taken into the context of a "square range", it's nothing special.

David E
September 23, 2011, 10:09 PM
Yes, it looks good, but looking closer, you see Cruise misses his initial firing grip a little bit.

It also becomes apparent that the two guys shown weren't actually present when Cruise fired the full flash blanks. They were layered in afterwards.

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