Obrez from a Mosin-Nagant barreled receiver (non-rifle)


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ahamrick6
September 23, 2011, 11:44 AM
I am new to this forum and would first like to thank everyone for their posts and I thank you for all the info passed on to me. The knowledge found here is amazing!

I am interested in making an Obrez (short barreled mosin-nagant rifle with modified stock that is not shoulder fired) and I am looking for a barreled receiver. Also, I want to be able to prove that it was never constructed as a rifle or taken from a rifle. The way I understand the law: if I can prove that the barreled action was never constructed as a rifle, I can make an obrez without the classification as an SBR and the $200 tax stamp and waiting period.

Am I wrong? Please, oh HighRoad mosin gods, educate me!

Many thanks!

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TexasRifleman
September 23, 2011, 11:46 AM
You are correct. If you can prove you have a receiver that has NEVER been a rifle then you can make a pistol out of it.

How you plan to find that proof on guns that old not made in the US is beyond me. I'd be very careful. That $200 might be the cheapest insurance you ever buy.

USAF_Vet
September 23, 2011, 11:50 AM
Classicarms is selling bare Mosin receivers, but I'm pretty sure it states they were removed from M91/30's

Finding a virgin Mosin receiver is going to be tricky indeed. If you're set on an Obrez, TexasRifleman's advice to just pay the tax stamp is probably the easiest way to go, unless you have the skills to machine out a new receiver on a mill.

M-Cameron
September 23, 2011, 11:56 AM
now i dont have a mosin to mark up.....but ive rendered a few in photoshop....

and i seem to recall that you can get an "obrez-ish" looking gun while maintain 'rifle' status (+26" OAL, +16" BL)


something to think about.

ahamrick6
September 23, 2011, 11:58 AM
I have not found a dealer who has a non-rifle barreled receiver, but I am hopeful. I am trying to register myself as a firearm owner/user and my guns as little as possible. (Call me paranoid) I also want to be legal and be able to show off the obrez without breaking any laws. I'm hoping I can find someone who has a chest of barreled actions that never made it to the rifle manufacturing line or a dealer that can provide me evidence/guarantee that it never came from a rifle. Or a barrel and receiver that are separate and never constructed in some long forgotten soviet bunker...

Thanks for the info!

ahamrick6
September 23, 2011, 12:01 PM
I have entertained that idea, M-Cameron, it's on my bucket list of fun firearms. It would be a nice, eardrum-shattering carbine!

SN13
September 23, 2011, 12:13 PM
Why not purchase a more modern bolt-action receiver that you can buy straight from the factory and make a pistol?

Just Curious!

ahamrick6
September 23, 2011, 12:15 PM
That's a great idea, but I like the historical value of the obrez.

AethelstanAegen
September 23, 2011, 08:11 PM
Theoretically, what you propose could be done, but practically, it'll never happen. You're just not going to find the receiver you need, I'm afraid to say.

They stopped making Mosin-Nagants a long time ago and the Soviets were pretty big on not wasting stuff. If they had a receiver, it was turned into a rifle. Beyond that fact, you're talking about an obsolete (ie replaced in front line service multiple times) service rifle manufactured in a no longer existant country (ie the Soviet Union). You're never going to find the paper work proving that the receiver came off the assembly line and was placed in a box and never assembled. I suspect that even if you could some how find the paper work, the BATFE would remain highly suspicious of it.

My best advice would be to pay the $200 stamp because otherwise you'll end with either an illegal weapon or be waiting an eternity to find the receiver with the paperwork (because it just doesn't exist).

That said though, I highly encourage you to do so and make one (you'd only be looking at ~$300 for a pretty niffty and unique gun). I'd love to see you post a video of you shooting it on youtube. Good luck!

SN13
September 26, 2011, 03:56 PM
But if you're going to pay for the SBR stamp, you might as well keep the stock on it to allow you to shoot it without (best Italian accent) "A-Break-a you face!"

But this has gotten me to think about the possibility of a bolt-action pistol using a savage action, as you can order them straight from the factory....

A 7.62x39 6" pistol...

In a left-handed action for ease of cycling.

Gunnerboy
September 26, 2011, 04:04 PM
A 7.62x54r pistol ? i sure hope you enjoy all facial hair and your wrists before you shoot it, the flame from a m44 mosin is amazing i cant begin to imagine the flame from a say 8in barrel.

DWFan
September 26, 2011, 04:40 PM
You can't use a barreled receiver. You have to begin with a receiver that has never ever had a rifle-length barrel on it and I very much doubt that such a thing exists.

You're looking at the same thing that prevented the building of clones of the "Mare's Laig" until a couple of manufacturers began setting aside receivers specifically for the pistol. Cut down M1892's even if made by the factory would have been illegal. The few copies of Steve McQueen's handgun that did exist prior to that were made from unused receivers that Winchester confirmed had never been assembled.

barnetmill
September 26, 2011, 04:42 PM
Could not one claim that the receiver was never barreled and leave it to the ATF to prove it was and how would they do that? Me I would pay the $200 for the tax stamp legality.

USAF_Vet
September 26, 2011, 04:55 PM
Could not one claim that the receiver was never barreled and leave it to the ATF to prove it was and how would they do that?

Yeah... sadly for things like this, the onus is on us, not the feds, to prove what it was or wasn't in any aspect of it's life. If the ATF even thought it may once have been a rifle (which is highly probable with a 91/30) you're getting a vacation to club fed. Sadly, we can't just tell the ATF to prove it was, we have to prove it wasn't.

If you want a virgin receiver for a 91/30, virtually the only way to get one is to mill it out of a block of steel. For states that don't allow SBR's, this is the only way to do it legally, as far as I'm aware.

wally
September 26, 2011, 05:41 PM
sadly for things like this, the onus is on us, not the feds, to prove what it was or wasn't in any aspect of it's life. If the ATF even thought it may once have been a rifle (which is highly probable with a 91/30) you're getting a vacation to club fed. Sadly, we can't just tell the ATF to prove it was, we have to prove it wasn't

Got any references to case law actually getting convictions at trial for this? I'd hope enough of the Constitution remains that the near impossibility of proving either situation, one way or the other would leave more than enough reasonable doubt for a jury.

DWFan
September 26, 2011, 11:54 PM
SN13, why build it? Just buy it. It's called the Striker. No longer available new, but they can be found fairly easily. Calibers included .223, .22-250, 7mm-08 and .308. Left side bolt and everything. Just be prepared to do some trigger work. The linkage makes them sloppy.

DWFan
September 27, 2011, 12:09 AM
Remington and Weatherby also made bolt action pistols. Weatherbys are still available new from CDNN.

Sam1911
September 27, 2011, 12:14 AM
...one way or the other would leave more than enough reasonable doubt for a jury. Really? :) You couldn't even ask for a favorable jury HERE! None of us would believe he'd found a "virgin' receiver, how could you expect a bunch of average "fair and impartial" folks to do so?

DWFan
September 27, 2011, 12:29 AM
wally, who says you'd even get to trial? David Koresh didn't and you're talking about the same federal agency.

backbencher
October 11, 2011, 04:25 AM
ahamrick6,

Er, no. The French, Russians, & Americans all made Mosins, but you're not going to find a documented virgin receiver. It was purely a military rifle for two totalitarian dictatorships. Even pre-'99s fall under the SBR statute, so that's no help. Keep it @ 16" bbl, 26.5" overall, or pay the $200, or go to prison. Remember Randy Weaver? Don't be that guy.

Farmers Fight!

backbencher

ihavenoideawhattoput
May 10, 2012, 03:24 PM
Virgin Receiver imported into the US as a receiver not a rifle. In Process of stamping and manufacturing as pistols.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7077/7172120630_e9724535d2.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23923527@N04/7172120630/)
102_0088 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23923527@N04/7172120630/) by ihavenoideawhattoput (http://www.flickr.com/people/23923527@N04/), on Flickr

OARNGESI
May 11, 2012, 05:56 AM
a 100 rifle with a 200 stamp can you actually build them from scratch cheaper

Mp7
May 11, 2012, 06:25 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNFsUvh078I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn2MIgGbNE

(... and this shortened Scout ...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=lRrnH15iYIU

FYI

ihavenoideawhattoput
May 16, 2012, 04:00 PM
These will be registered as pistols, no tax stamp required. 8" Barrel, Virgin Receiver, cut obrez stock or new custom pistol stock. $499

Sam1911
May 16, 2012, 04:16 PM
These will be registered as pistols
If these are going to be "Title I" handguns, why are they being registered, and registered with whom?

ihavenoideawhattoput
May 16, 2012, 09:23 PM
Not registered, just stamped with our manufacture logo and pistol. Registered was a poor choice of words in that phrase, Sold and 4473'd as pistols.

gandog56
May 17, 2012, 04:29 PM
These will be registered as pistols, no tax stamp required. 8" Barrel, Virgin Receiver, cut obrez stock or new custom pistol stock. $499

I'm still wondering where you are going to find these new Mosin Nagant never been used virgin receivers. Remember, despite what these internet lawyers seem to be saying the burden of proof still falls on YOU. Ten to 30 making small ones from big ones is not my choice of vacations.

ihavenoideawhattoput
May 21, 2012, 09:26 AM
I'm still wondering where you are going to find these new Mosin Nagant never been used virgin receivers. Remember, despite what these internet lawyers seem to be saying the burden of proof still falls on YOU. Ten to 30 making small ones from big ones is not my choice of vacations.
The receivers have already been located and purchased after a few talks with the ATF regarding this, the burden of proof does not in fact fall on me, but the ATF. That was the easy part.

Removing the barrels and transferring them over to the new receivers not so much.

19-3Ben
May 22, 2012, 09:17 PM
That's a great idea, but I like the historical value of the obrez.

I think the Obrez is neat, but does it actually have any historical value? I mean, were they ever actually used by the Russians (beyond the mere prototype level), or have they enjoyed much more widespread use as 'for fun' guns?

Sam1911
May 22, 2012, 10:06 PM
They were not any sort of "official" prototype or experiment. The accounts of them in the historical record center on resistance fighters and revolutionaries in various countries cutting down the very common Mosin Nagant rifles to make concealable short-range weapons, or of mobsters doing the same for use in criminal enterprises.

19-3Ben
May 22, 2012, 10:58 PM
Gotcha. Thanks for taking the time to teach me.

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