Judge Opinions


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MolleMan
September 24, 2011, 10:46 PM
Been looking at the Taurus Judge for a sidearm for hunting, working, and to put in the truck. I live on a big farm, so varmints are more than common. now I do have a good hunting rifle/shotguns, carry pistols but none to really handle all the above mentioned i think. Wanted some opinions on yes or no and if the 3" is worth it over the 2 1/2" . all suggestions welcome and appreciated.

just a side note, I really try to stick with practicallity with most gun purchases, i like for them to have an intended purpose

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Super Sneaky Steve
September 24, 2011, 10:55 PM
It's a great snake gun for sure, but on people that's debateable. Lots of people think they know but the truth is that not many people have been shot buy this revolver yet. Until we have real data people are just talking out their buttholes.

TIMC
September 24, 2011, 11:01 PM
If you're just talking about snakes then the Judge with bird shot is great at very close range. Varmints and other critters is iffy and there are much better guns.
I own a 3" magnum Judge and it is nice, fun to play with and I do think a good close range SD gun with 3" 000 buck or slugs. Would it be better than the 2 1/2" version well I don't know about that because I have never tried it but I can shoot either or out of mine so I would say yes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/TheJudgepic1.jpg

Skribs
September 24, 2011, 11:08 PM
I'm waiting for S&W to come out with a 3" chambered Governor.

MolleMan
September 25, 2011, 12:10 AM
I just checked out that Governor on the S&W website. I must admit, really cool. but the MSRP wasn't cheaper though

oldfool
September 25, 2011, 01:06 AM
"the Taurus Judge for a sidearm for hunting, working, and to put in the truck."

not a good snake gun
not a good people (SD/HD) gun
not a good CCW gun
not a good varmint gun
not a good hunting gun
crappy poor substitute for a shotgun, including 410s
poor substitute for a good centerfire revolver
fair close range possum gun
good watermelon gun, but pretty much any gun is
and pretty much any gun fits in a truck
and pretty much any gun can ride with you on a tractor or riding lawnmower

"Wanted some opinions on yes or no"
you asked for opinions... so, no
(blame me if you want to)

Princi
September 25, 2011, 09:08 AM
I bought the Judge Ultralight. The .410 shells are hard to extract. I bought the .410 Handgun rounds that are made especially for the Judge, and work better, but still are difficult to extract.

There is/was a lot of hype about the Judge. Again I proved to have more money than brains. That wouldn't be so bad if I wasn't so poor.

Lawdawg45
September 25, 2011, 09:32 AM
Sorry, I have to agree with old fool, it's a poor choice. The shot pattern with .410 produces a "bagel" pattern with nothing hitting the 10 ring, and the accuracy with the .45 colt is less than impressive. For your farm needs I'd suggest a Ruger Blackhawk or Vaquero in .45 colt, which can be loaded with hot JHP's, FMJ's for target, or shot shells for snakes.;)

LD

MolleMan
September 25, 2011, 02:48 PM
well lol I guess i won't be buying a judge lol.

what do ya'll think about a Ranchhand in a .357 or .44 mag?

Skribs
September 25, 2011, 04:32 PM
not a good snake gun

I've heard it is.

not a good people (SD/HD) gun

Maybe not the best...but 5 000-pellets at short range is hard to argue with if you ask me.

not a good CCW gun
not a good varmint gun
not a good hunting gun


Yeah I'll agree. It's big and it's not that accurate. But at 10 feet, it'll do its job.

crappy poor substitute for a shotgun, including 410s

Most people would say that a Glock is a crappy substitute for an AK.
You can put a judge in places that you can't fit a shotgun. No rule you can't have both.

poor substitute for a good centerfire revolver

At 10 feet, being able to make 30 holes instead of 6 holes...

and pretty much any gun fits in a truck
and pretty much any gun can ride with you on a tractor or riding lawnmower

While this is true, I think the primary reason the Judge was invented was for defense against car-jacking. That rifle might fit in the back of your truck, but a Judge can easily go in the dash. At 10 feet or less, aiming quickly to get the gun on target before he grabs it, I'd rather have something with a bit of spread than just make 1 hole.

With all that said, I'm still waiting for the one I mentioned above.

I just checked out that Governor on the S&W website. I must admit, really cool. but the MSRP wasn't cheaper though

S&W quality control is better, from what I understand. I've no experience with Taurus, just what I've read.

PapaG
September 25, 2011, 05:28 PM
A few buddies have retired and moved "south" in our strangely anti-gun state. Most have property (40-100 acres) and most tell me their "daytime" gun, the gun they carry on their property while doing fences, planting, cutting wood, etc, is a Judge..three .410s up and two 45s to follow. Each and every one has shot at least one rattler and one has two copperheads..most like the 3" gun (strange that the 3" .410 was never known as the "magnum" until the Judge came out) with 7 1/2 shot. I find that mine patterns best with that load.
I do find the gun oversized for its use and often find myself carrying my old CA Bulldog with two handloaded speer shot capsules ahead of a trio of 44 hollowpoints. Not much difference in pattern up to 10 or so feet and a lot more compact.

Geezer Glide
September 25, 2011, 09:34 PM
The Judge? Not a good shotgun, not a good handgun.

Warp
September 25, 2011, 09:45 PM
I personally will not even consider it or any of it's similars. No thanks. I'll leave them to the ignorance that is the masses. I am convinced there will almost always be a better choice.

waidmann
September 25, 2011, 10:53 PM
If you want to shoot a .410 handgun at pests I'd reccomend the Comanche single shot, its a 3" chamber and with the wad-lock istalled you have twice the effective range.

As for the "mare's leg" lever-handguns they are pure novelty, a "hollywood gun". They fall into the same niche as a semi-auto Mac-10 with a fake suppressor. Don't bring expectations to the table, and you won't be disappointed,

41
September 25, 2011, 11:25 PM
not a good snake gun

Not sure where you are getting that info from.

FadingSwordsman
September 26, 2011, 08:08 AM
"Jack of all trades, master of none."

A judge can be a decent gun if you're looking for one thing to fill a number of applications. That said, it's not going to be great at any of them. It wouldn't be a bad carry/HD/snake/what have you gun, but at the same time it's not going to be particularly good at any of them either. Not my cup of tea, but hey, to each their own.

Be aware that because of the rifling, the patterning for the .410 will be all over the place -- consistency will happen very rarely, and probably only be coincidental... If I had one, I would probably only load it with something that has a lot of pellets and makes a single large hole at about 10ft... 00 or 000 would be too random for me. Personal preference plays a role there, though. Buckshot may increase your eff. range with the .410, thanks to the extra weight, but you'd have to get lucky and hit what you're aiming at for it to matter...

Also, Taurus QC leaves much to be desired... I like the company and that they're looking to fill odd positions in the market, but they would do a lot better (And be more likable) if they made quality products consistently. As far as I know, though, my friends with Judges are happy and had few minor problems or none. YMMV

weregunner
September 26, 2011, 08:21 AM
The jury is in and the Judge is better than most people give it credit for.

Normally I'd bring many links from another gun forum here, but that's getting tedious. If you want to hear from the actual owners then I will give you that. The link will have very recent threads (if you care to look for them) about the actual penetration and spread of the various rounds. The actual .45 Colt velocities are there, too. Yeah, I'm going to make you dig for it.:what::) The research is worth it though.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/judge/

Good hunting.

oldfool
September 26, 2011, 08:50 AM
"what do ya'll think about a Ranchhand in a .357 or .44 mag?"

cute toy, but not much else, lost somewhere in the middle of limbo land
"for hunting, working, and to put in the truck."
lots and lots of very good 38/357 or 44 sp/mag lever action carbines out there though (Rossi, Henry, Marlin, etc)
rifles, like shotguns, work a LOT better in actual practice when fired from the shoulder
very versatile, and they are good for whatever ails you around the farm, wabbit to whitetail size, even black bear size, 10 feet to 50 yards or more
if your 'pistol' happens to be a revolver, you could maybe match caliber

(unless you are subject to being attacked by herds of snakes with fast feet, you just don't need a repeater "shotgun", long or short of any type, for that.. any garden hoe or cheapo single shot smoothbore will do, no fast draw required, no watermelon bait required... for "hawgzilla rattler", just run the tractor over him)

JoelSteinbach
September 26, 2011, 10:16 AM
Got rid of my Judge after 2 trips to Taurus,could not get the gun too fire all chambers all of the time. I'll stick with my 629 with birdshot for snakes

Guillermo
September 26, 2011, 10:26 AM
as said...it is a toy.

probably fine for snakes but the rifling makes it a horrible shotgun.

It is not a good .45either

Pretty much what everyone said.

I am all for toys...but this is not a useful gun for your application

weregunner
September 26, 2011, 12:01 PM
Wrong folks. Unless you actually have experience with the various Judges you are irrelevant.

And one anecdotal case doth not make a case against the whole line. Any gun maker has it's QC slips.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/judge/54283-410-penetration-tests.html
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/judge/54464-public-defender-ss-range-session.html

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/judge/55456-judge-barrel-length-effect-pattern.html

In recent gun magazines penetration and spread of most of the various and new loads strictly for the Judge have been documented.

What stands out is the PDX1 rounds and newer, more potent rounds,due to newer more efficient powders are grouping very tight out to 25 yards. Penetration is 10-13 inches or more. These are tailored rounds by most of the ammo makers just for the Judge. There is even a new slug load that is heavier than the present .410 slugs and the velocity is several times faster than present .410 slugs. That's out of the shorty barrels.

.45 Colt rounds made for defense velocities, and newer .45 Colt rounds for the Judge, are higher (in the 850- over 900fps), and the accuracy at 25 yards is in the 3-4 inch range.

The newer #8 shot loads are grouping well in gelatin at 10 yards or a little past that and have deep penetration. That's shred snakes or other varmints.

If you don't like the Judge,fine. Same goes for the Governor.

The Judge has been found to be a fine car, truck, and field gun. The use is documented in the gun magazines, at various gun forums ( if I have to I can bring 23 pages of links from the actual satisfied owners),gun blogs, and various types of media.

With the newer powders and finely tailored technology for new Judge rounds, these now make the Judge more of a self defense revolver than ever before. Not just out to a few feet as was the case before this.

So,yes. Other revolvers can get the job done. So can the Judge and the Governor. It all depends on the needs and wants of the owner.

Use the .410 gauge/ .45 Colt revolvers to the best of it's limitations and within their niche.

daferg2
September 26, 2011, 12:24 PM
Weregunner, you said it much better, and with much more tact, than I was about to. The Judge works just as it was intended to. Calling it a toy is pure ignorance.

Going duck hunting? Yeah, it's not a good shotgun.
Shooting a bullseye match? Probably not going to score too high.

But as a truck/snake/close quarters SD gun, it will perform as intended. Anything within 25 feet had better be afraid if faced with any of the new self defense loads made for this gun.

I wouldn't carry it in an urban environment, but on the farm, it's a good choice.

Skribs
September 26, 2011, 12:46 PM
Hey, I'm pro-Judge, and I'd still call it a fun toy :P

JoelSteinbach
September 26, 2011, 12:52 PM
I think the concept is great but the reliability of the Noght Court Judgr that I had purchased and sold did not give me the warm fuzzy feelining that I need when I pick up a self defence weapon

weregunner
September 26, 2011, 12:55 PM
There are plenty of people who feel it is a fun gun and that's why they got it. I get it. I theeeenk! :rolleyes::)

Guillermo
September 26, 2011, 01:26 PM
Unless you actually have experience with the various Judges you are irrelevant

I am irrelevant?

I understand the effect of rifling on shot shell, I have seen the patterns thrown, I have read articles and 1st hand accounts.

Why? because something new and different is interesting. And I liked the idea of a slug out of the Judge.

But in the end, it is trying to reinvent the wheel with a government restriction (has to be rifled to be legal).

Sorry... irrelevant though you may classify me...a good defensive weapon does not a Judge make.

Skribs
September 26, 2011, 01:41 PM
Well, Guillermo, I don't have one, but I've shot it at the range. At SD distances, it patterns just fine.

David E
September 26, 2011, 02:07 PM
And if you're at the range and a paper target attacks you, the Judge can save the day!!

Otherwise........

MyGreenGuns
September 26, 2011, 02:09 PM
Why? because something new and different is interesting. And I liked the idea of a slug out of the Judge.
Thats part of why I bought one. I think its really cool to shoot shotgun shells out of a pistol.
But in the end, it is trying to reinvent the wheel..
Its trying to combine two wheels. Reinventing the wheel would be making another pump shotgun or another wheelgun.
..a good defensive weapon does not a Judge make.
I disagree to a point. Since most of your 'legal' defensive situations are close range, I'd say the Judge would be a good defensive weapon. I'd be more afraid of it than say a .380. (Not going to step in front of one of those either.)

I'll still grab my 870 for HD. I'll still grab my XD9 for CC. I'll use my 10/22 for plinking. I'll use the Judge for fun. I wouldnt call it a 'toy' but 'fun gun' seems to suit it well.

Guillermo
September 26, 2011, 02:24 PM
I'll use the Judge for fun

on that we totally agree.

I am all for toys and gun games.

Skribs
September 26, 2011, 03:49 PM
And if you're at the range and a paper target attacks you, the Judge can save the day!!

Does the pattern magically change if I'm shooting a live target instead of a piece of paper? I've never shot a live target, so I can't say for sure, but something leads me to believe that if I have a workable spread on paper, I'll have a workable spread on an attacker.

Guillermo
September 26, 2011, 04:07 PM
I'll have a workable spread on an attacker

doesn't take a lot of penetration to kill a paper...even if it is charging, head-down to protect it's young post-its.

Skribs
September 26, 2011, 04:26 PM
While a lot of the Judge specific loads don't have reasonable penetration, the 000-buck loads have been proven to meet the FBI required penetration levels.

So yes, your choice of SD ammo is limitted, but you still have a viable load that produces enough penetration and has a decent spread for SD ranges.

daferg2
September 26, 2011, 04:44 PM
"doesn't take a lot of penetration to kill a paper...even if it is charging, head-down to protect it's young post-its".

I disagree with your opinion on the Judge Guillermo, but that's funny right there.

skidder
September 26, 2011, 11:51 PM
I have no experience with the Judge, but I do with Taurus. :banghead:

Guillermo
September 26, 2011, 11:55 PM
I disagree with your opinion on the Judge Guillermo, but that's funny right there

thank you

:D

buddyemily
September 27, 2011, 12:37 AM
The Judge is a fad and a gimmick at best. Poor design.

AK_Maine_iac
September 27, 2011, 01:10 AM
IMHO the Judge falls into the same class as the 45GAP. It can ring bells, but not mine.

usmccpl
September 27, 2011, 02:51 PM
Now where I understand it aint ment for much I use my Judge for hunting and it works. Cottontails out to 7 yards and tree rats a bit further have been taken down regularly using #4 birdshot. And with a good 250 grain hollowpoint deer to 35 yards. All that out of a fungun.

FSJeeper
September 27, 2011, 03:06 PM
I read all the bad stuff about the Judge when they first came out but needed a more easy to carry snake gun over a 12 gauge shotgun. After several years of ownership and 32 Rattlesnakes, it performs the role of a snake gun perfectly and I am happy with it.

Accuracy in the 45LC has proven to be good enough for Hogs of which I have taken one with it so far.

With the new loads available, it is a viable home defense and car gun.

For a knock around snake gun, it does that job perfectly.

GEM
September 27, 2011, 04:11 PM
Find Tom Given's professional take on the Judge that appeared in SWAT magazine. That's all you need to know - as compared to other gun rags.

Dueling1911s
September 27, 2011, 04:36 PM
a "fad/ gimmick" that had made taurus a whole boat load of money. and if it was a fad smith wouldnt have copied it

i don't like taurus particularly but i do like my judge

it sits in my console as a truck gun when i'm in the barrio. shot pattern of 000 buck at driver side window doesnt matter at 2 feet. thats a big ole barrel to look down on the business end...

in the words of borat "i feel like dirty harold"

Guillermo
September 27, 2011, 04:39 PM
Go to 28:20 for the Judge discussion

http://proarmspodcast.com/2010/10/03/060-protecting-yoursel-on-the-street-and-in-court/

FIVETWOSEVEN
September 27, 2011, 09:02 PM
And if you're at the range and a paper target attacks you, the Judge can save the day!!

Otherwise........

I hear it is good for practicing your fruit killing skills aswell. :D

I could only see myself carrying one just for snake killing and still carry a primary defensive gun, I don't live in bad snake territory so I don't think I'll need one then. I've seen the patterns aswell and they don't look good for SD beyond 10 feet. I don't want to be limited by my gun that much that it becomes dangerous to fire because I might hit someone else. I'll stick with my single slug handguns that have proven themselves over the past, what? 600 years?

RalphS
September 27, 2011, 09:13 PM
I love to see people shooting the Judge at the range. When they're done, I pick up their 45LC brass and use it to reload for my Redhawk. Saves me a lot of money.

gilgsn
September 28, 2011, 11:26 AM
I had the opportunity to try one last week. Accuracy was dismal with .45 Colt rounds. It wasn't the ammo, I shot my own handloads in it. The owner gave me a few 410 shells to try.. Very little effect on target.. The pattern is so wide, I wouldn't even worry much being shot at with one over fifteen yards with 410. I would never buy one. Useless piece if you want my opinion. It's a bad shotgun and a bad handgun. Any Italian SAA copy is ten times better.

AJMBLAZER
September 29, 2011, 10:28 AM
Large heavy handgun that requires expensive pistol ammo and special shotgun shells made specifically for it.


Personally I'd just get a 3-4" .357 Magnum revolver, have a 6th shot, more effective round, more common ammo, and still the ability to shoot the readily available shot shells and cheaper .38 Special ammo for fun.

Owners seem to have mixed reviews and I've noticed several of the online gun review sites and folks on YouTube give it "meh" to "moderate" to "crap" reviews.

Someone else said it...it's a gimmick in search of a use.

pikid89
September 29, 2011, 10:40 AM
What stands out is the PDX1 rounds

yes it stands out as being a poorly designed round, they are more of a useless gimmick than the Judge itself, designed to be bought by people who don't know any better

it throws frisbees flat face forward....terrible terrible sectional density
followed by BB size shot, a size considered adequate for ducks...not people

one would be far better served (which still isn't great) using normal buckshot in the Judge

With the newer powders and finely tailored technology for new Judge rounds

this whole business about using faster powders designed for shotgun pistols is a scam too, shotgun and handgun powders are already pretty interchangeable as it is.

Skribs
September 29, 2011, 12:17 PM
gilgsn, the purpose of the judge isn't to defend yourself from targets 45 feet away. It's for targets in SD range, which is likely to be about 10 feet away.

Fivetwoseven, bows were proven weapons of war for thousands of years. I'm sure people were saying "I don't want a musket, I'll take the bow that my ancestors used."

captain awesome
September 29, 2011, 08:45 PM
My thoughts on the 410 handguns:
I initially wanted a judge and still sort of do. But I have a couple requests of Taurus, first, I want a longer barrel for the 3" chamber that doesn't weight as much as the raging judge. They made a 6"bbl with the 2.5" chamber, why not the 3"? I also would like to see a choke.

Magnum research did a beautiful job with their BFR, (I own one) has a removable choke, and a 7.5 inch bbl with the 3" chamber. The gun is massive however and I wouldn't carry it without my shoulder rig. The long barrel should help a lot with the 410 velocity. My BFR is a lot of fun to bust clays with, and is a very well made and strong gun.

Other thoughts that are probably best left alone but I love to dream about doing Elmer Keith -ish type things....
I have some theory's I want to put to the test concerning the 410 hand guns. First, magnum research makes a 460 s&w BFR with a cylinder that should fit 3" 410 shells. 460 s&w has a max saami pressure of 65,000 psi, which is far beyond any pressure seen in any shotgun cartridge that I know of. If some one were to get their hands on some strong 3" shot-shells made of brass, and custom tailor a shot shell load at those pressures, imagine the ballistic capabilities. All of the sudden you would have the most formidable 410 pistol ever made. Something very similar could be done with the Raging Judge at 454 Casull pressures. I don't know all the logistics of wad strength and such but I am sure it could be worked out. another concern would be possibly dealing with extraction because of the case extending past the lip inside the chamber at the edge of the 460 case. it may need to be bored out to the length of the 3" case. Of course all of this would be much better accomplished with a smooth bore but hey we have to work with the laws we have.

Strykervet
September 29, 2011, 09:12 PM
a "fad/ gimmick" that had made taurus a whole boat load of money. and if it was a fad smith wouldnt have copied it

i don't like taurus particularly but i do like my judge

it sits in my console as a truck gun when i'm in the barrio. shot pattern of 000 buck at driver side window doesnt matter at 2 feet. thats a big ole barrel to look down on the business end...

in the words of borat "i feel like dirty harold"
Are you kidding? Smith and Wesson copies everyone these days. They still have their revolver line, and I really hope they don't drop it to copy Taurus, which I wouldn't put past them these days.

They dropped a whole line of great pistols, the 3rd gen. autos, in order to copy Glock. They got sued for the Sigma, which was a complete ripoff. Now they make AR's and 1911's. Sure, they are a fad company now. They will make whatever is selling the most at the moment, and right now, it is AR's and affordable 1911's. Now the Judge is selling well, and since Smith has a huge revolver manufacturing capability and a name to go with them, it only sounds reasonable that they'd jump on that wagon too.

I wish they'd bring the 3rd gens back, make a 4th gen mabye.

As for the Judge, I think it is gimmicky for one main reason: size. Their commercial (well, Smith and Wesson's commercial I think) has a lady get approached by two "bad guys" in a parking garage and she slips it out of her purse --it is half the size of her purse, try getting your wife to carry something like that-- and then, "BOOM, BOOM, BOOM" and they show some cantaloupes getting blown apart. Whatever.

So all effectiveness aside, and I do think .45LC and those new .410 shells they've designed for it are indeed effective (although the .45LC would be MORE effective out of a .45LC revolver) the size of the thing makes it a no-go. You can't conceal carry this thing! That is why the commercial has a woman pulling it from a purse!

For snakes and whatnot, I think most folks generally use something else already. Like a traditional shotgun or whatever they are carrying that they feel appropriate for the environment they are in. Now if you want a toy and a plinker and this is what you want, it most certainly would be an excellent snake pistol, no doubt about it.

Seriously, if you get one of these, it needs to be because you want a toy. There are much better defense tools for HD, like an M4 or a shotgun, and for carry, I'd carry just about anything else first, but I'd carry this before the Desert Eagle or the .500magnum. But I wouldn't carry any of those to begin with, they are not practical at all, and neither is this. Too big for carry, too "small" for HD. For banging away in the field? Just right.

So simply put, if this appeals to your defense criteria, get a snub .45LC for carry, a 12ga. pump for HD, and save the Judge for fun.

They've really put some marketing genius behind this thing. They are selling it as a true defensive tool. The ads, the names, the new shells. When it came out in the late 80's or 90's, it was called the "Thunder (Five or Six)" and it had no additional marketing hype and it only used commonly available .45LC and .410. So basically, without being TOLD how to view it, people viewed it as what it was: an impractical weapon or as a toy. It flopped.

What I would like to see, and it would be mostly a toy as well, is one of these things chambered in 20ga. with a long barrel and a stock. That would be a fun toy. Maybe with a .22mag revolver built in too. Seriously, I think it would be a cool toy.

wrs840
September 29, 2011, 09:24 PM
i used to own two Judges, still own one, both 3"bbl, the one I kept is an Ultralite.

Never had a hitch with either in mechanical function, but the performance of the platform is poor. A 4"bbl .38 or .357 is much better for everything. You can kill snakes just fine with one of those Speer Shotloads. My Judge only comes out to loan to friends who still think they want one... ...the novelty wears off really quickly.

Buy a used S&W M10 or M64 and you'll have a way better gun for way less money.

Ala Dan
September 29, 2011, 10:55 PM
Not what its cracked up to be, IMHO~! :uhoh: :scrutiny: ;)

oldfool
September 30, 2011, 12:08 AM
cannot help but notice how many advocates of da' Judge rely so heavily upon

A) snakes.. omygawd ! (like they were Grizz or zombies)
B) intimidation bore size like it was magically 145 caliber viewed from muzzle end
(which 44 sp/mag, 45 acp, 45LC "only", or a measly 380/9mm/38/357 bore is so obviously not)
C) 2 feet up all the way to a whopping 10 feet for SD, 7 yards for cottontail wabbit... but a whole 35 yards with a 45LC "snubbie" hit on slow unwary piggies (pretty good for such a short sight radius... if miss piggie ain't too biggie nor in a foul mood and moving quick at you, I guess.. but you do get five tries unless the first three are for hard charging snake defense)
D) the stunning penetration & instant stopping power of so very few buckshot vs. 38+p, 357, 40 S&W, 45 acp, 45LC, 9mm, 10mm, 44sp/mag, etc.
E) the convenience of carry in the center console of a vehicle, so lacking in any of the aforementioned centerfire calibers

and.. snakes.. and snakes.. and snakes
(thank goodness some gunmaker finally solved that problem)

Skribs
September 30, 2011, 12:33 AM
4-5 pellets of 0.36" diameter vs. 1 shot of semi-reliable expansion that may be anywhere from ~0.36" to 0.7" (000-buck vs. an expanding 9mm/.38/.357 round)...there is something to say about the extra shots.
At SD ranges, they will offer enough penetration (more just means they fly farther past the exit wound), so I think the tradeoff is good there. If you're beyond that range, you won't likely have a good excuse for SD unless the attacker is armed. Due to that and it's size, probably not a good carry gun, but useful for the car (when the attacker is close enough to bang on the window) or in the house (unless used down the hallway).

I don't encounter snakes where I live, but where they are a problem, if they're close enough to strike I'd want to take one down quick. If it's close enough to strike, then you're in effective range with the judge.

I haven't seen many people say "bore size" as a good reason.

The convenience in a console is because those other calibers make 1 hole at a time, and require you to aim precisely to hit the target. With this, you're bound to hit some vitals. I've seen plenty of police videos of shootouts under 10 feet where they both empty a clip and hit nothing, so even from the driver's seat to the passenger door, being able to hit the target is important.

oldfool
September 30, 2011, 12:45 AM
inquiring minds just want to know and cannot resist asking... durn it

them "new & improved" special powder/special projectile loads in 410 shells
ever wonder what they do/don't do out of a minimum legal length smooth bore 410 shotgun ?
(vs. a 'snubbie' revolver)
pattern too doggone tight for sudden snake attack ?
and how is that penetration, with say 3" buckshot shells ?
or them extra special 'disk' special powder loads (anything like a load of thin dimes) ?
and what do it do to an aggressive watermelon ?

PS
missing from the drivers seat to the passenger door is pretty scary (especially when the attacker is close enough to bang on the window) , acknowledged
although 10 feet is pretty hard to come by in any vehicle I own
hitting the target do count for a whole lot at whatever distance
if buckshot makes you feel safer about missing at 10 feet or less, choose buckshot, maybe with a flared muzzle
(shucks, maybe LE will wise up and dump them Glocks, given sufficient evidence in favor of)

if that snake be close enough to strike, consider stepping back s-l-ow-l-y
or just practice out speed drawing a rattler in midst of it's strike.. (or mebbe the rattler will ignore sudden hand movements, giving you a jump start)
unless rattler teeth are already embedded in your foot, in which case your foot probably already has problems enuff without buckshot in it
(hmmm... what is the average penetration of rattler fangs vs the penetration of 000 thru a good leather boot ?)

41
September 30, 2011, 09:38 AM
Here is a video of Hickock45 shooting the judge. It seems to be a much better gun than given credit for. If you don't want to watch the whole video, the buckshot starts at about 16 minutes, and the federal 000 copper plated buck shot starts at about 22min. I think that the federal would be the best choice for SD based on this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRlry5KH6I0

Guillermo
September 30, 2011, 09:59 AM
Old Fool,

While you are right (as usual) there is one thing that you are not addressing.

A lot of the pro Judge stuff on this thread is guys trying to justify their toys. They might have had to justify it to their wives. *sigh* This is just an extension of that.

Another thing, like the internal lock on Smith revolvers...Darwin may not have much of a chance to prove his theory. After all...the chances of someone needing their gun for self defense is small. And, say a bad guy kicks down the door, the good guy shoots him with a Judge. Big boom and being stung is enough to make most people leave. (I would!!! :what: at high speed)

So let them have their fun.
After all...the Judge goes "boom" and burns gunpowder...so it ain't all bad. :D

kludge
September 30, 2011, 10:18 AM
While a lot of the Judge specific loads don't have reasonable penetration, the 000-buck loads have been proven to meet the FBI required penetration levels.

So yes, your choice of SD ammo is limitted, but you still have a viable load that produces enough penetration and has a decent spread for SD ranges.

Link?

Skribs
September 30, 2011, 01:30 PM
So...would you guys say that a 12-gauge is a bad defense weapon? Because, at the ranges the particular weapon is intended for, a 12-gauge vs. a rifle will have roughly the same differences as a .410 handgun vs. a standard pistol.

Oldfool, I never said that the .410 has the same penetration potential as a .357. However, in a load designed for SD, you want 12"-15" of penetration. The 000-buck should give you that. So compared to an SD .357 round, the 000-buck will have similar penetration.

I personally have never shot at a live target, so I wouldn't know how accurate I am when the adrenaline is pumping. However, I have seen plenty of police videos where both the cop and the perp empty their magazine from less than ten feet away, and nobody gets hurt.

I'm not saying the Judge is the be-all-end-all of SD. What I am saying is those that say "crappy SD gun" are wrong. It would serve that role very well if loaded with 000-buck.

I do agree that the "Judge Premium SD" loads which include random crap are utterly useless. But standard 000-buck should be fine.

gilgsn
September 30, 2011, 03:21 PM
Like Oldfool, I wonder why snakes have become so aggressive lately.. A stick used to be plenty enough.. I am 44, and have never been threatened by a snake.. I don't know anyone who has been threatened or bitten by a snake either.. Either you see one and step away, or it bites you after you step on it, and it's too late.. You have to give it to gun manufacturers though, it's brilliant marketing: Appeal to a deep rooted fear in most people's psyche and offer them a solution for a few hundred bucks.. Brilliant!

I think the Judge is the answer to a non-existent problem. It lacks accuracy in 45 Colt, and I doubt penetration is enough out of such a short barrel, even with 00. See http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41_2.htm

Was there a movie featuring the Judge? Because I really can't understand why it is so popular.. Maybe people believe it will blast bad guys away like a Hollywood 12-gauge.. I think it is more likely to piss them off... Not to mention all those pellets missing the target, and ruining someone else's day..

Had I never shot one, I wouldn't be so critical, but I have... And I didn't like the results. You go to Taurus' web site, and there is not one 45Colt-only revolver listed. Same for BFR. TC only has one 45Colt contender, and it's 410 also! What's next, a 45/410 Single action Army? A S&W model 25-45/410? Enough 410 already!

Skribs
September 30, 2011, 03:25 PM
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53.htm

The Judge, Revisted.

They decided to try it again with all the "Judge OMGBBQ" loads, and found that they all sucked, but that 000-buck worked.

Some snakes, based on species and individual temperment, may be more or less likely to strike based on proximity.

nonseven
September 30, 2011, 03:51 PM
As far as snake effectiveness goes, the Judge is no more effective than 45 colt/44 special CCI shot loads.

I did a test of 10 different guns, at a snake target at 10ft. What you need is pattern density at this distance. The Judges are throwing more lead no doubt, but the patterns are looser than the CCI shotshells. So in a 6" circle, you've got the same number of pellets with a 45/44 shotsell as you do with the judge. The 3" 410 shells didn't improve upon this. More lead, yes, but not but in the 6" circle. Surprisingly, a 22lr shotshell out of a 2" snub had the best pattern density in my test.

FIVETWOSEVEN
September 30, 2011, 10:43 PM
So...would you guys say that a 12-gauge is a bad defense weapon? Because, at the ranges the particular weapon is intended for, a 12-gauge vs. a rifle will have roughly the same differences as a .410 handgun vs. a standard pistol.

12 Gauge is more powerful, its a long gun to it produces patterns that are far more useful beyond 10 feet that the judge could dream of. A 12 gauge with buckshot is effective out to 40 yards, Judge is only 10 feet. Its a long gun. What your saying is like saying that AR 15s suck because a AR 15 pistol isn't a good self defense gun.

What advantage does the Judge have over a Regular handgun?

Skribs
September 30, 2011, 11:07 PM
Someone said it in a post on another section, ammo choice flows in this order:
Shot Placement
Penetration
Caliber
Hydrostatic Shock

PLACEMENT
At SD ranges, the Judge will be able to hit the target with all of the pellets. A revolver in .357 magnum will be able to place a round on the target. A 12-gauge will be able to place all rounds on the target. Granted, there will be a wider spread on the Judge, but that makes it more likely that at least one pellet will hit a more vital spot.

PENETRATION
12" of penetration required to effectively deal damage to vital organs. At SD range, there are loads for the Judge that can do this. The revolver and the 12-gauge obviously will, so they all qualify here.

CALIBER
Judge can be loaded with 4 or 5 rounds of 000-buck. 12-gauge typically has 9 pellets of 00-buck loaded for HD use. So 2 shots from the Judge is approximately the same as 1 shot from a 12-gauge.*
Comparing the Judge to a .357, as said above - you have 5 ~.35" holes vs. 1 ~0.7" hole. If you're looking at the diameter of the holes, 1.75 > 0.7. If you're looking at the frontal surface area of the bullet, 0.48 sq in > 0.38 sq in. The permanent wound channel will be bigger than that of a .357.

*You might say "that's like saying that 2 shots from a .22 is the same as 1 from a .45." Well, if the .22 had reliable penetration, I might agree. However, the .22 will not have decent penetration, while buckshot from a Judge will. So I think it's okay to say 1 shot from a 12-gauge = 2 shots from a Judge at SD ranges.

HYDROSTATIC SHOCK
Ok, all of these guns fail to produce the velocity to effectively stop with the shockwave. So it's a wash here.

So, would I rather have a 12-gauge than a Judge? Yes. I'd also rather have it over a .357.
Would I rather have a .357 over a Judge? Outside of SD ranges, yes. If I think I might need to combat another shooter outside the house, I'd rather have a .357. But for car defense or for my fight-to-my-long-gun pistol, I would take a Judge over a .357.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not useless, and it does actually have a small niche where it would be a great option. Outside of that niche, yeah, its effectiveness is going to degrade rapidly. If I wanted a multipurpose gun, I'd rather take something that's going to be much more rounded.

But for all of you who say "I wouldn't be afraid to stand 15 yards away from a Judge"...if you had one pulled on you at 10 feet, I bet you wouldn't tell the person behind it "go ahead, none of the pellets will hit me."

David E
September 30, 2011, 11:36 PM
It's a free country and, so far, there are choices to make in defensive handguns.

I think the Judge is a very poor choice beyond 5 feet using shotshells of any type, but if you don't then by all means, use it.

oldfool
October 1, 2011, 01:14 AM
BTW, I never said da' Judge was useless
G (as usual) is on target; it goes bang, throws lead, and the barrel will probably stay attached to the frame. Extreme few carjackers are brave enough to stand in front of any gun muzzle after the 1st really loud bang at under 10 feet. The window shatter alone will catch their attention. Strive not to miss the window at three feet.

I said what I said in post #6, honest opinion that
usable, yes, good no
which could be stated as "a solution desperately seeking a non-problem to solve"
and claiming that 410 000 is equivalent to X pellets out of a 12 gauge long gun is a pretty l-o-n-g stretch (like patterns and shot density don't count; tell that one to pheasant and quail and turkey and duck hunters)

Throwing five "good penetration" chunks of lead at random, not unlike 15 rounds of spray-n-pray 9mm, might get you one good hit... or not... one chunk of 38 to 45 is best not thrown spray-n-pray either, so if you are really that worried about missing at 2 to 10 feet, the gun you carry just might not be the thing you might ought to be most worried about... if you are likely to miss the target with any gun muzzle point shooting at 10 feet or less, count on fringe hits in just the very right places if you choose to, it's your choice to make, friend

Me, I sometimes drop a 380 acp LCP (a derringer no matter how else labeled) in a coat pocket, and wander about town in casual mode; but only because I don't really worry about myself as much as I might ought to. Because beyond 2 to 10 feet I best pray-a-lot, not just spray-n-pray (and da' Judge don't fit in my coat pocket). It is what it is, it ain't what it ain't. When I do feel the need to "worry" about myself, it won't be a derringer nor a snubbie 410 on my hip. YMMV, you pay your own freight.

Fun guns are fun guns, nothing ever was wrong with that. If I admitted what some of my big-boy-toys are, THR in total would collectively be 'ROTFLMAO'.

mostly..
some things are just harder to not make a little bit of fun of (sorry about all that)
and some things take a mighty lot of justification to be other than just for fun
BUT one thing is certain about what da' Judge really is good for, no doubt about it
It's always good for about a hundred posts anytime things get a little bit slow on a gun forum.

Choose it, use it, be well, shoot well, and always mind your backdrop
(and say a little prayer for yourself every now and then, just don't pray and spray at the same time)

PS
the mods have shown a lot of patience on this one (yet again)
so I am going to quit on this one whist still behind the shot pattern game

weregunner
October 1, 2011, 04:13 AM
Recent testing gives the newer Judge rounds 8 inches to past 13 inches in penetration calibrated gelatin. This is documented in very recent publications.

The areas of destruction in the gelatin were large in size.

However many of you are overlooking the the field use and fun gun issues for which many bought the gun. For general purpose on the farm, at the cottage in the boonies, or for a truck gun the Judge works out well. The owners say so and have the data to back it up. It works for them!

With the newer rounds specifcally for the Judge will be lethal or have a better than average chance to stop an attack. The emphasis is on stop the attack. Groups for buckshot and other projectiles was tight compared to other older rounds.

Recent .45 Colt use showed the velocities to be ot or over 800fps. This is documented by the gun writers as well. No, not +P Colt ammo.
A number of rounds showed that 850fps-900fps was obtained.

Use a .45 Colt round of the right type and in the right place will stop the attack. Isn't the .45 Colt considered one of the King of the Handgun Rounds from yester-year and still a viable round today? Yes it is! So yes. At very close range out to 10-15 yards the Judge rounds can cause serious wounds that can stop an attack.

At close up to about 25 yards the .45 Colt is a force to be reckoned with. There are also many more .45 Colt loads that are available than ever before. This gives the .45 Colt some versatility.

Granted, I would rather and do have a plethora of different revolvers ( and I do) to that can do the job of stopping an attacker/s. That's from .38 Special to .44 Special, with a few magnums thrown in. That was a personal choice.

If a person chooses the Judge or Govenor then that is a personal choice as well. Many want the simplicity of the revolver and a gun for protection or for overall around use. This the Judge can do with the various models offered out there.

Many of these people are not into guns like a lot of us. Some are.

Plenty of people who have quality other brand types of firearms have bought the Judge,Governor, or other related firearms and are as normal as anyone else in the firearm culture. The reasons for buying these was well considered,common sense,and thought out carefully. Others wanted a novelty gun or just for fun. That or for any of the above reasons.

Let's also consider this. The .45 Colt/.410 gauge ammo combo also has a large following in other forms of firearms. Bond Arms and other gun makers jumped on the bandwagon a long time ago. For many years at that.

S&W has done the same thing just recently.

The .410 gauge defense rounds for the Judge and Governor have been refined to hit in tighter patterns, wound more, and penetrate deeper and is still an ongoing thing.

One thing that everyone seems to have overlooked is that we all are responsible for every projectile we set loose. That's for ethical and moral reasons. If you hit it you buy it. That includes people and things. OOOOOPS doesn't cut it. So,yes. One has to be careful where every part of the shell's payload goes and does. This isn't T.V. or a video game. Thus I like to loose only one projectile at a time from a revolver or pistol.

Many been there accredited gun instructors value a shotgun for home defense. They're right depending on circumstances and everyones' case is different. In my case shooting off many projectiles in many directions in a tightly packed neighborhood just does not make sense in many ways. So I prefer the handguns or .223 rifle with proper ammo for defense. In other places and for others circumstances will be much different.

Pick the right tool for the job and circumstances.

For CCW carry there are models of the Judge and holsters. On the other hand I find that it is easier to have a K framed revolver or smaller on my person. I am short, have small hands, and short fingers. Medium-small framed pistols, medium, and small revolvers fit my personal needs much better.

I'm sure it's different for most of the rest of you.

weregunner
October 1, 2011, 04:24 AM
Oh,yes. Snake loads were recently tested and documented in a monthly periodical.

.357 magnum-45 Colt/ACP rounds all would have killed or shredded the snakes head. So will .410 gauge #8 rounds.

I have used the CCI .22 WRM snake load on a snake and the snake died from one round. It was saturated.

Plenty of people have used or use good old fashioned lead bullets to do in quarrelsome poisonous snakes. There's more than one way to skin them. :D

fxstchewy
October 1, 2011, 06:21 PM
I have had one for a while and i like shooting 45lcs at SD range with it, don't shoot it much but for up close SD a 45lc will do the job.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 1, 2011, 11:40 PM
But for all of you who say "I wouldn't be afraid to stand 15 yards away from a Judge"...if you had one pulled on you at 10 feet, I bet you wouldn't tell the person behind it "go ahead, none of the pellets will hit me."

45 feet =/= 10 feet, also, no one has said anything about standing downrange in front of a Judge. I don't like the idea of a handgun being so limited by it's shot to an effective range of 10 feet and neither do alot of people.

Once again, what advantage does the Judge have over traditional handguns?

Skribs
October 2, 2011, 12:16 AM
The amount of lead you can pump into a target at 10 feet. That is the advantage.

Which is why I say if you think you need something longer range, I would definitely go with a different gun. If I were getting something specifically for bedside table (to fight to my 12-gauge) and/or vehicle console, I would take a Judge.

Unless the other guy has a gun, using a gun beyond the effective range of the Judge is probably asking for a legal nightmare.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 2, 2011, 12:45 AM
Unless the other guy has a gun, using a gun beyond the effective range of the Judge is probably asking for a legal nightmare.

There are many situations that involve ranges over 10 feet and yes they have happened. Do you tote two guns when you go about your day?

Skribs
October 2, 2011, 12:59 AM
No, I do not. I wouldn't want to tote a Judge anyway. Even the 3" barrel 2.5" chamber is a monster.

Like I said, the only situations I would get it for are to be grabbed from a desk/nightstand or a car console. CCW I'd rather have a pocket .380, a 5-shot revolver, or a full-size semi-auto. HD I'd rather have a long gun. But for getting to my long gun, or for car defense, yes, a Judge would be my first choice.

ETA: What would some of those situations be?
Would there be scenarios where your average civilian would be fighting at distances greater than 10-15 feet inside a home (excluding hallway), using the gun from their drawer to get to their shotgun, or in any situation where you would grab a gun from the console of your car?

gilgsn
October 2, 2011, 10:20 AM
But for all of you who say "I wouldn't be afraid to stand 15 yards away from a Judge"...if you had one pulled on you at 10 feet, I bet you wouldn't tell the person behind it "go ahead, none of the pellets will hit me."

I did say that.. 10 feet, of course, that is another story. I am sure the judge would do fine at it's intended range. But so would other guns, which would also do better at longer ranges.. If I had a Judge, I would load it with .45 Colt, not shot. I just saw a TV show "I almost Got Away With It" where a bad guy takes three .22 rounds to the chest, and proceeds to shoot the couple he had kidnapped. Fortunately for them, his gun jammed. The BG drove away to be arrested later, but he was fine.. So, I wouldn't even count on 00 to do the job out of a handgun.

The Judge is a large gun. So, not so good for CCW. In a house, there are far better options. In my opinion, any .357 would do better, in a smaller package. I would also take a short barrel SAA over the Judge any day; you never know when the distance could be a bit longer, and you'll need a tad more accuracy.. If you want to shoot snakes, there are always the CCI shot loads, or even handloads.

Skribs
October 2, 2011, 11:31 AM
So over 10 feet, we agree .357 is better.
Under 10 feet, it's your opinion that .357 is better. Understandable, and we probably never will agree on which is better. But at least we agree that it would do its job.

gilgsn
October 2, 2011, 11:45 AM
So over 10 feet, we agree .357 is better.
Under 10 feet, it's your opinion that .357 is better. Understandable, and we probably never will agree on which is better. But at least we agree that it would do its job.

Yes, certainly. Actually, at short range, I would prefer .45 Colt, even in the Judge. But as an overall self-defense weapon other than the Judge, a regular .45 Colt revolver or smaller .357 would, in my opinion be a better choice.

We all have our preferences, and it all depends on circumstances.. Personally, I don't carry a weapon. If I did, it would most likely be a Glock; but that's for another thread..

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 2, 2011, 01:47 PM
Just another piece of info, with 00 Buckshot out of a shotgun, each individual pellet equals .32 ACP. Thats with the long barrel to really get the shot moving. Now you have the Judge with a barrel thats alittle over an inch long trying to propel 000 with much less powder, so what exactly does that equal?

Skribs
October 2, 2011, 01:55 PM
Like I said, 527, there is 1 load that meets the FBI requirements:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53_2.htm (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot53_2.htm)

To make the FBI 12 inch penetration standard, it will need to fully penetrate through 4 water jugs, for 24 inches of water.

(...)

The 5 000 buck penetrated into the 4th jug, for 9 to 12 inches penetration.

Notice how they were flattened as they went down the barrel.

The PWC created should be the same as 5x .380s.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 3, 2011, 01:07 PM
Still seems pretty spotty, although some loads did meet penetration, but actually dangerous considering how if you don't aim center mass literally, you can easily have some pellets traveling off in some direction causing a dangerous situation. I still stand where I do about the Judge as something that isn't good for SD.

41
October 3, 2011, 05:33 PM
Still seems pretty spotty, although some loads did meet penetration, but actually dangerous considering how if you don't aim center mass literally, you can easily have some pellets traveling off in some direction causing a dangerous situation

Pretty sure that is how all guns work.

Skribs
October 3, 2011, 07:16 PM
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#OVERPENETRATION

Handgun rounds have worse overpenetration after going through a wall, because they don't reliably expand and thus retain their energy better. I'd be less worried about a 000 pellet going stray. (Still worried, just less worried).

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 3, 2011, 11:07 PM
Pretty sure that is how all guns work.

Your gun would still be pointed at the guy, just at his lung instead of his heart and WHOOPS! There goes 3 pellets to stop God knows where.

Handgun rounds have worse overpenetration after going through a wall, because they don't reliably expand and thus retain their energy better. I'd be less worried about a 000 pellet going stray. (Still worried, just less worried).

At home I just use a full size shotgun, I'm thinking about outside such as in your car.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 4, 2011, 02:32 AM
Once again, I'm talking about a situation where you're in a car as you talked about.

Kiln
October 4, 2011, 08:54 AM
The Judge is a decent pistol as far as fit and finish in my opinion. There are few pistols better suited to dispatching snakes and other small pests than the Judge is at fairly close range. With ammo designed for personal defense I also think it is probably effective enough that I would rely on it. The PDX-1 ammo would be alright for this purpose I'd imagine...though somebody with more knowledge on the matter may come along and recommend a better ammo type.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 4, 2011, 11:44 AM
You do realize that you can easily get shotshells for nearly any revolver and even autoloaders to kill snakes right?

Kiln
October 5, 2011, 01:34 AM
You do realize that you can easily get shotshells for nearly any revolver and even autoloaders to kill snakes right?
Yeah I know but you can't get those little blue plastic tipped rounds nearly as cheap as you can get a box of .410 ammo. Plus you can load it with PDX-1 shotshells and that will give you a decent defensive pistol as well or if you prefer a single solid round you can load it with the .45 Long Colt.

I'll admit that most people probably buy the Judge on the idea that .410 is some super powerful round that is superior to most other handguns because it usually comes out of a shotgun but they're not bad guns and are easily adaptable to many situations too.

JHenry
October 5, 2011, 01:47 AM
i want to try the 6" raging judge magnum. Its barrel is alot longer possibly providing better ballistics, and its got the bonus of firing the .454 casull.

at $600-700 i wouldnt buy it on a whim, but it might increase accuarcy and perform alot better at the cost being much larger and unconcilable

bassdogs
October 5, 2011, 11:28 AM
I own a Judge and have shot a wide range of ammo thru it. I suggest that most on here have never as much as held one in their hand let alone actually shot one. As others have said, don't like them, then don't own one. On the other hand, IMHO serves a very good purpose for someone [like my wife] who is not a regular shooter with a lot of rounds down range. She shoots a pretty handsome pattern at 15' and less. Loaded with 2 PDX and a 45LCHP and then 1 more of each, you have a very effective PD weapon for walking to your car or a breakdown on the hwy. Have found [thru actual experience, not what I've read from like so many wantabe experts] it to be realiable and lethal for the purposes it was intended for.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 5, 2011, 12:41 PM
Yeah I know but you can't get those little blue plastic tipped rounds nearly as cheap as you can get a box of .410 ammo. Plus you can load it with PDX-1 shotshells and that will give you a decent defensive pistol as well or if you prefer a single solid round you can load it with the .45 Long Colt.

I'll admit that most people probably buy the Judge on the idea that .410 is some super powerful round that is superior to most other handguns because it usually comes out of a shotgun but they're not bad guns and are easily adaptable to many situations too.

So in other words, if I already own a .357 Magnum revolver, I have a snake gun and a self defense gun already plus something that is more accurate with handgun ammo. What advantage does the Judge have then? The ability to fire shotshells that are limited to 10 feet effective range?

Skribs
October 5, 2011, 01:46 PM
What advantage does the Judge have then? The ability to fire shotshells that are limited to 10 feet effective range?

Yep. That's basically it as far as I can tell. If you're only planning on using it at up to 10 feet, then that limitation isn't a problem.

Even though I'm defending it, it's far back on my wish list. I want at least a couple long guns and semi-autos before I get a Judge/Governor.

RX-178
October 5, 2011, 02:01 PM
Judge Opinions... well let's see...

First of all, I tend to think of it as a .45 LC revolver that just happens to be able to handle .410 shotshells too. As a defensive firearm, I'd never use any of the .410 shells (barring being completely out of .45 LC ammunition), but it does seem to me that being ABLE to fire .410 shells out of one is a pretty nifty feature.

Yeah, a regular .45LC revolver is going to be more accurate, and a regular .410 shotgun patterns better. I'm still pretty sure I'd rather pack a Judge when out in the sticks rather than both a revolver and a shotgun, hiking packs can get pretty heavy after a while!

And now they've got the Raging Judge Magnum, 6-shot in .454/.410. I'm more than a little bit eager to try that out, since it seems to be pretty suited for Alaska.

Skribs
October 5, 2011, 02:15 PM
They have a 7-shot version, RX, but it doesn't handle .454. Then again, they have 8-shot .357s.

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=703&category=Revolver&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=

nonseven
October 5, 2011, 04:59 PM
Over in the Taurus forum, when polled, most judge owners carry a combo of the Federal 000 load and 45 colts. Typically 2 buckshot loads and 3 45 colts.

I can't say thay they are badly armed. Heck, a lot of people carry a 380 auto.

So I don't talk down the Judge. It's actually been good for the industry and certainly for 45 colt and 410 owners because of all the new loads that have come out.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 5, 2011, 08:21 PM
Yep. That's basically it as far as I can tell. If you're only planning on using it at up to 10 feet, then that limitation isn't a problem.

Planning to use a gun within 10 feet is not smart IMO, you should plan for 21 feet at least.

Skribs
October 5, 2011, 08:58 PM
Planning to use a gun within 10 feet is not smart IMO, you should plan for 21 feet at least.

My new place, longest distance I expect to use it would be 12 feet, but then you factor with my arm extended and the person not being flush with the wall it's more likely 7-8.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 5, 2011, 09:05 PM
You choose whats best for you, my opinion on the Judge being a over hyped, snake-killing, toy won't change.

Kiln
October 6, 2011, 05:38 AM
So in other words, if I already own a .357 Magnum revolver, I have a snake gun and a self defense gun already plus something that is more accurate with handgun ammo. What advantage does the Judge have then? The ability to fire shotshells that are limited to 10 feet effective range?
Yeah I'm not going to argue about effectiveness of caliber (being an owner of a .357 and .38 myself on top of various other weapons) because it doesn't matter too much when loaded with shotshells as opposed to regular defensive ammo...I'm a strong advocate of shot placement above all else when it comes to that. My main point here is that .410 bulk ammo is cheaper than a box of pretty much any other shotshell manufactured for a handgun and even contains more rounds.

I was just arguing that the Taurus Judge isn't bad for what it is, an expensive handheld shotgun that alot of people enjoy. For snakes at very close range, I feel that the .410 is better because it has tons of pellets and would more than likely destroy a snake. Will your revolver loaded with shotshells be more effective or as effective at longer range? Maybe but I never made a statement to the contrary or if I did, didn't do it intentionally.

I'm not trying to push you into one, haven't been hostile, and haven't been disrespectful in any way as far as I can tell so please don't take my comments as such. I personally don't even own a Judge but after firing a .410 derringer I can say that I would like to one but won't shell out the price they want for them...maybe if I can find a cheap used one but otherwise I won't be getting a Judge anytime soon.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 6, 2011, 10:54 AM
My main point here is that .410 bulk ammo is cheaper than a box of pretty much any other shotshell manufactured for a handgun and even contains more rounds.

Do you really kill that many snakes?

David E
October 6, 2011, 01:07 PM
Does the "cheaper bulk .410 ammo" take into account the cost of the gun?

Reminds me of the guy that brags about the mileage his brand new financed Prius gets over my completely paid for Jeep.

Guillermo
October 6, 2011, 04:29 PM
Reminds me of the guy that brags about the mileage his brand new financed Prius gets over my completely paid for Jeep.

Literally laughing out loud.

Prius boy is a dumbass

cost of operation is a hell of a lot more than just mileage.

AJMBLAZER
October 6, 2011, 06:26 PM
It gets REALLY screwy when you look into just how much effort, industry, and transportation is put into making a Prius and it's battery packs.

nonseven
October 6, 2011, 08:19 PM
Let's remember that we buy most of our oil from people who would just as soon kill us as sell it to us, and that anything we can do to buy less oil is good for the country.

Boy, this thread has really got off-topic.

AJMBLAZER
October 6, 2011, 08:31 PM
Including all the oil used to dig up, move, process, assemble, ship some more, ship again, and shipping the components to make said "green" vehicle?

More fuel efficient and energy efficient to just make a 1 ton truck here.

GEM
October 7, 2011, 04:00 PM
People carrying mixed loads as some sort of wonder weapon practice further confirms that the gun is an attractor for the untrained. We've seen that silliness with handguns and shotguns and NO one legit recommends such.

Skribs
October 7, 2011, 04:06 PM
GEM, I've seen plenty of people suggest with a defensive pump gun that you load a couple birdshot (see if you get a voluntary stop without much penetration), and the rest buckshot (or buckshot/slugs). While I wouldn't do this, I can see how it would be preferable.

Loading .410 and .45 means you can rotate the cylinder and use whichever one you feel fits your situation better. That's better, IMO, than a tube magazine that you can't rotate between.

bassdogs
October 7, 2011, 07:13 PM
One more time---- If you don't like the Judge don't buy one!!!!!

I do and I did!!!!

As for the Judge being for the "untrained", I think you are 100% correct. There are thousands of people looking for self defense that are not frequent shooters. While it is much preferred to shoot hundreds of rounds on a regular basis, many of us can't or simply don't do that. I initially bought a Judge for my wife who is not a regular shooter. She has practiced and is a decent shot with the judge at targets out to 21'. IMHO it is the perfect SD weapon for someone like my wife. It is a point and shoot when loaded with 410 rounds followed with a 45hP. She is much more likely to stop an attack walking to her car or stopped along the road with her judge than a 38sp or whatever.

My final comment is refer to my first comment!

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 8, 2011, 01:37 AM
GEM, I've seen plenty of people suggest with a defensive pump gun that you load a couple birdshot (see if you get a voluntary stop without much penetration), and the rest buckshot (or buckshot/slugs). While I wouldn't do this, I can see how it would be preferable.

I don't agree with it but the idea is to hit them with something that will pretty much send them running without much damage to the house. I can't imagine anyone wanting to stick around after getting shot with any gun.

Loading .410 and .45 means you can rotate the cylinder and use whichever one you feel fits your situation better. That's better, IMO, than a tube magazine that you can't rotate between.

I don't see the point. With a shotgun, you just rack it/cycle it and you can have a slug. The Judge you have to cock/decock to get what you want. I would not want to be cocking and decocking a gun in a life and death situation. If you're about to mention snakes, just don't, please don't. Snakes aren't gonna be able to attack if you keep your distance, if you're worried about one being somewhere, either don't go there or get a sharp stick.

This thread makes it seem like snakes are the most dangerous thing on the planet.

RX-178
October 8, 2011, 11:41 AM
Am I the only one getting a serious sense of deja-vu here?

I think I've even seen the exact same usernames saying the exact same thing before...

Big Juan
October 8, 2011, 01:09 PM
I think the "subject" is "thread"bare after over 100 posts. Moving on.

GEM
October 9, 2011, 05:10 PM
If you shoot, you are in a situation where it is life threatening. Sending them running might be a nice concept but using a load that limits your chance of stopping someone is not realistic. No shotgun instructor of any competence recommends such - that's Internet bovine recycling substance.

Having two weak loads first - great plan. That's why the Judge brings out all kinds of tactical crazy crappola in people.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 9, 2011, 06:42 PM
Reminds me on how the French Police used to carry their revolvers with 2 blanks first then 4 live ammo.

GEM
October 10, 2011, 01:19 PM
Dutch did that also. Something like: a blank, a cork round, a rubber bullet or two, tear gas and then a real one.

I was in Cabela's and got into a 'discussion' with a guy who wanted to load his shotgun with blanks in case racking sounds didn't scare the BG away. The clerk suggested rubber buckshot. :banghead:

Maybe one can post a sign on the front door: I HAVE A JUDGE - So put a watermelon over your head. :D

Warp
October 11, 2011, 01:22 AM
IMHO it is the perfect SD weapon for someone like my wife. It is a point and shoot

Just like every other DA revolver. Or any of the myriad semi autos with no manual safety.

GEM
October 11, 2011, 11:48 AM
The implication with point and shoot is that the shotgun rounds will fill the room with mankilling pellets. Same stuff from shotgun fans who never patterned a gun. Also, as we know with shotguns, you don't want loose pellets all over the place (we aren't shooting birds in the house). Thus, the new controlled wad and expansion rounds. Very impressive tight patterns.

Shoot birdshot through a rifled shotgun barrel to see the wide donut of 'death' - not really. :D

Take the wife to a good class so she or anyone can hit the target rather than relying on a mythical watermelon killer.

marb4
October 11, 2011, 01:06 PM
I owned a stainless one for a while. The fit, finish, and function were excellent and I actually really liked the "ribber" grip. I did end up selling it because the more I used it the more I realized that though it did a lot of things, it didn't do any of them terribly well. Accuracy with 45LC was poor and the spread with 410 shot was pretty big. Its construction (at least on mine) was top notch but its practical effectivness was suspect.

nonseven
October 11, 2011, 04:49 PM
My BFR 45/410 with a 7 1/2 barrel, throws 270 grains of lead (5 00 buck pellets) from a 3" 410 shell, at 1,000 fps. Across a large room (20ft) the 5 pellets produce a consistent 3" pattern.

I have no doubt that would be an effective load against a 2 legged predator. But you certainly need to aim, not spray and pray.

GeorgeF
October 12, 2011, 12:09 PM
I'll just give my .02. The purpose of the Judge for me is a 'something goes bump in the night' gun. I wanted something I could use one-handed so I could manipulate door knobs, make cell phone call to police, etc...

The Judge with the built in rail allows me to mount a Streamlight underneath. I dont care about it looking tacticool - it's either in my bedroom safe or in my hand.

I like the shotgun loads since my bedroom door opens to a hallway with my kids' rooms at the end. If for some reason I need to discharge my firearm, I dont want over-penetration. Unless the CIA has deployed a wet team to take me out, a bad guy getting hit with 000 buckshot is going to vacate.

That being said, I also load 2 rounds of .45 Colt - it has excellent accuracy for me at 7 yards. 3" groupings are consistent with point shooting.

It is a pistol that I researched and is ideal for my exact situation. I would not dream of carrying it out of the house - plenty of better choices out there. But for home defense it serves my needs perfectly.

Only gripe I have is that the interior cylinder walls are rough - not polished smooth. So some 410 shells are getting stuck. I will take a Dremel with a gentle rubber polish bit and some Flitz to smooth that out. Other than that its swell.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 12, 2011, 01:30 PM
I'll just give my .02. The purpose of the Judge for me is a 'something goes bump in the night' gun. I wanted something I could use one-handed so I could manipulate door knobs, make cell phone call to police, etc...

Just like any other handgun out there.

The Judge with the built in rail allows me to mount a Streamlight underneath. I dont care about it looking tacticool - it's either in my bedroom safe or in my hand.

Just like most modern handguns out there but with the Judge, you can't really reach the light with one hand. You're supposed to keep the light off till you have to ID who you might shoot.

I like the shotgun loads since my bedroom door opens to a hallway with my kids' rooms at the end. If for some reason I need to discharge my firearm, I dont want over-penetration. Unless the CIA has deployed a wet team to take me out, a bad guy getting hit with 000 buckshot is going to vacate.

That Buckshot will easily go through that wall and into your kids room and you have alot more things flying at a large spread making it even more dangerous for your kids than if you used a single projectile.

MyGreenGuns
October 12, 2011, 02:32 PM
Wow 16 posts from 527. You really dont like the Judge do ya?!

I think its kinda funny you told someone (earlier in this thread) it wont penetrate beyond 10 feet, and he should get a 12guage; but you tell this guy its gonna go thru the walls and kill his kids.

Not pickin a fight, just an observation.

Warp
October 12, 2011, 02:37 PM
Wow 16 posts from 527. You really dont like the Judge do ya?!

I think its kinda funny you told someone (earlier in this thread) it wont penetrate beyond 10 feet, and he should get a 12guage; but you tell this guy its gonna go thru the walls and kill his kids.

Not pickin a fight, just an observation.


Most modern interior walls are far easier to penetrate through than a fully grown adult male who is trying to kill you.

Anything that will penetrate your attacker enough to ensure a reliable stop will penetrate interior walls. The reverse is not necessarily true.

MyGreenGuns
October 12, 2011, 02:50 PM
So it wont kill an attacker beyond 10 feet, but it WILL kill his kids after it travels down the hallway, thru the wall and THEN hits his kids?

bikemutt
October 12, 2011, 03:00 PM
I believe GeorgeF just wanted the BG to "vacate", 000 buckshot should accomplish that mission.

Skribs
October 12, 2011, 04:57 PM
I think the problem people have is they see the Judge as a compromise. However, all handguns are a compromise. The difference is that I think of a standard pistol, like say a 1911, a Glock, or a wheelgun as a substitute for a rifle. The Judge is a substitute for a shotgun. It's not a hybrid between a handgun and a shotgun anymore than a S&W 627 is a hybrid between a Glock and a Remington 700.

The Judge fanatics will say that the Judge is perfect for anything, and I'd say they're wrong. It definitely has its downsides.
The Judge naysayers will say that because the judge is a compromise, it's not worth it.

I'm in the middle of the road. The Judge is a tool, much like any other gun. At short range, it will accurately put 3-5 holes in the target (depending on which load of 000 you use) for high recoil. So, you have lots of holes, slightly less accurate shot placement (but honestly, how many of you will hit on a dime exactly where the most vulnerable part of an assailant is in an SD situation? a few inches left or right probably won't make a difference), and a bit more kick. It's a tradeoff, yes, but it does have some advantages.

In a place like a car or a small condo, the Judge would be my first choice for a handgun. In a place like on the street or in a larger building, yeah I'd want something that has a bit more accuracy.

Dnaltrop
October 12, 2011, 05:54 PM
@ Nonseven

The BFR is supposedly properly choked for precisely the range you're detailing, I was seriously looking at them and instead picked up a Schofield replica because it tugged at the "want" monster. Nice choice though.

The Judge does indeed have a crappy spray, but the penetration is improving as manufacturers design more rounds specifically for the Judge. They have good advertising... and a LOT of them are being sold today.

Inside of 10 feet if it was the only thing at hand, sure... but my experience with Taurus is one fantastic .357, one disturbingly bad nearly-new .22 tracker( Under 200 rounds, 4th trip back for the same problem) , and a rental 1911 that wouldn't feed.

I will admit, the Circuit Judge is in the corner of my vision, but a revolver-rifle falls into the "Weird gun" category, and it was light enough to handle one handed.

But unless I see, hold, and Shoot more Taurii, the score is 66% bad, 33% good, I can't justify investing in one when I can spend a bit more and get other guns I already trust from experience. (Star 9mm, C&R"s, etc etc)

Warp
October 12, 2011, 07:31 PM
I think the problem people have is they see the Judge as a compromise. However, all handguns are a compromise. The difference is that I think of a standard pistol, like say a 1911, a Glock, or a wheelgun as a substitute for a rifle. The Judge is a substitute for a shotgun. It's not a hybrid between a handgun and a shotgun anymore than a S&W 627 is a hybrid between a Glock and a Remington 700.

The Judge fanatics will say that the Judge is perfect for anything, and I'd say they're wrong. It definitely has its downsides.
The Judge naysayers will say that because the judge is a compromise, it's not worth it.

I'm in the middle of the road. The Judge is a tool, much like any other gun. At short range, it will accurately put 3-5 holes in the target (depending on which load of 000 you use) for high recoil. So, you have lots of holes, slightly less accurate shot placement (but honestly, how many of you will hit on a dime exactly where the most vulnerable part of an assailant is in an SD situation? a few inches left or right probably won't make a difference), and a bit more kick. It's a tradeoff, yes, but it does have some advantages.

In a place like a car or a small condo, the Judge would be my first choice for a handgun. In a place like on the street or in a larger building, yeah I'd want something that has a bit more accuracy.

The advantage of a handgun are that it can be carried on your person, potentially concealed, with very little effort. Another major advantage is that it can easily be operated with one hand.

The size of these fad .410 capable handguns is a serious drawback vs the established firearms. Seriously, look at how big it is and how LooooonG that cylinder is. It's a 5 shot revolver. That's it. It needn't be so big. I'd rather carry my 4" Ruger GP100, hands down

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 13, 2011, 11:57 AM
So it wont kill an attacker beyond 10 feet, but it WILL kill his kids after it travels down the hallway, thru the wall and THEN hits his kids?

The pellets still have plenty of killing power just that they spread out too much that you can easily miss the attacker with some of them and those can go flying anywhere.

nonseven
October 13, 2011, 01:48 PM
The BFR is supposedly properly choked for precisely the range you're detailing, I was seriously looking at them and instead picked up a Schofield replica because it tugged at the "want" monster. Nice choice though.

The 7 1/2" barrel BFR is the one with the choke - same choke as the Thompson single shot 45/410. You have to shoot one of these to really understand what a 410 shell can do in a handgun. Amazing.

But with the 00 or 000 buckshot loads, like the 2 1/2" Federal 000 4 pellet load, these are coming out of the barrel single-file, and I've found the choke doesn't improve it much. So an un-choked gun like the Judge or Governor holds a pretty tight pattern with these loads, somethink like less than 12" at 25 ft or so. Beyond that, justifiable self-defense is questionable unless they are already shooting at you. After much shooting and chronographing these loads, I've become convinced that they may in fact have some merit in a self defense situation if you understand the limitations.

Skribs
October 13, 2011, 02:27 PM
The advantage of a handgun are that it can be carried on your person, potentially concealed, with very little effort.

The advantage of a handgun in this sense is that they are smaller than a long gun. Which will fit in my handgun safe on my desk, a 12-gauge pump or a Judge? Which will fit in that cutout book? Which will fit in the console of your car? Yes, it may be bigger than some handguns, but then I can say "if you want concealed, why does anyone buy a G17 over a G26" or "why does anyone buy a GP100 over an LCR?" For the situations I've mentioned - HD or car defense, the Judge should fit into your storage method of choice, and be easier to access than the long gun in the closet/trunk.

Another major advantage is that it can easily be operated with one hand.

And the Judge can't?

GEM
October 13, 2011, 05:13 PM
25 ft. There is easily that distance across the diagonal of homes with open floor plans.

I don't want to shoot something that has an inherent 12" inaccuracy. I have no idea if I would have to make a shot that might have a loved nearby or a window.

Also, the idea that a shot at 25 ft is not justifiable is just baloney. Ever here of the Tueller Drill and recent suggestions is that the 21 ft rule is conservative.

Look, people are enamoured by the Judge being a superweapon and having said that, are resistant to logic.

Yes, it's a gun and will shoot someone. Do trained people recommend it - as far as I know - I don't know a reputable trainer that regards it as a first choice. It's seductive for a newbie watching watermelons explode in a commercial. The young lady in the parking garage would be better served with a Glock 26 and a good course rather than a Judge.

Skribs
October 13, 2011, 05:35 PM
Ever here of the Tueller Drill and recent suggestions is that the 21 ft rule is conservative.

That drill is based on the time it takes someone to get to you. If they're still quite far away I wouldn't be willing to shoot yet. If your gun is already pointed at the target, 20 feet is still a safe distance away.

GEM
October 13, 2011, 05:53 PM
If a intruder/person is beyond 21 ft with an edged weapon or any weapon in your home and you choose to have a conversation after discerning the threat - go ahead.

I regard the distance as an advantage for my safety.

The rule doesn't say - OH, here is the magic line - Now it is legally justified to shoot if he or she crossed it. It is that if you haven't drawn by 21 ft (and you haven't trained to deal with such within the radius), you are in trouble.

25 feet is not that far in your house and I still argue at that distance I want the rounds to go where I aim and not where some gimmick gun spreads them.

You are not in trouble in most states if you face an armed intruder in your home at normal house distances and you shoot. To say otherwise is still baloney.

Skribs
October 13, 2011, 06:06 PM
Are you planning on clearing your house, or just using the handgun to get to the long gun to bunker down in your safe room (or using the handgun to bunker down in your safe room). At my condo, I'll have a handgun within reach of the bed and a long gun in the closet in that room. Furthest distance I'd shoot...maybe 10-12 feet.

At my parent's house, it's a different story, but even then there's only 2 points where they might have a shot over 20 feet, and that's only if the attacker is at a specific place at the time when they're at the farthest corner.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 13, 2011, 11:07 PM
Does anyone have any comparisons of Judge loadings vs. standard handgun rounds in ballestic gel? I want to see what this gun is capable of exactly.

Are you planning on clearing your house, or just using the handgun to get to the long gun to bunker down in your safe room (or using the handgun to bunker down in your safe room). At my condo, I'll have a handgun within reach of the bed and a long gun in the closet in that room. Furthest distance I'd shoot...maybe 10-12 feet.

Why not leave the shotgun next to your bed at night?

GEM
October 14, 2011, 12:14 PM
Given that you aren't going to know where others are in the house, when the trouble arrives - saying you are going to fight to long gun is nice cliches.

Maybe you have to play the hand you got - downstairs - if the main room is upstairs. Bye, wife and kid - play with the psycho. Daddy is going to go upstairs or the other room for the long arm. Oh, if I get the shotgun, hope I can make the hostage rescue shot. Fun in training, fun with your kid with a shot pattern of 00 at a distance.

So do you tote a long gun around each room? No, you probably carry a handgun.

If so, and you don't live in a small box - I see NO real advantage of a handgun of limited capacity, no special stopping powers and inherent inaccuracy at a reasonable distance.

Small rooms, guys wearing watermelons on their heads for a disguise - Gotta Go with a Judge.

Sure, if it was all I had - use it. If I only had my Buckmark - use it. But as a free will choice - nope.

nonseven
October 14, 2011, 07:17 PM
My opinion about handgun stopping power changed after I read that FBI study on the subject. What I got out of it was:

1. Most people are stopped (and literally fall down) from the psychological effect of being shot.

2. Barring #1, aggressors are stopped either by a disabling hit to the central nervous system (head or spine), or

3. Loss of consciousness from blood loss from another wound. There is no "knock-down" effect barring #1 or #2 with a handgun cartridge.


"Now here comes the Judge" which is going to work for #1 because lesser calibers like say, 32 auto also work in this situation. However with small calibers like 22lr or 25 auto there are a surprising number of people who don't realize they've been shot. So, a 45 auto or 4 pellets of 000 buck are going to do a better job here.


In the case of #2, in a close-range defense situation, my feeling is that the 000 buckshot loads increase your chances of success for most shooters. I don't know how many of us are capable of a head or spine shot with a single projectile in a high-stress situation on a rapidly moving target, but I don't count myself as one of those. Probably not with the Judge either but based on my practice and experience with these guns, I'm much more likely to do it with a 000 shell. So far there are very few real-life reports of the effectiveness of the buckshot loads from a Judge on humans, but there was one case posted on this forum of a single shot stop, and it appeared that the assailant was hit in the head with a buckshot pellet.

Now for #3 - loss of blood - If the first 2 have failed then time for an aggressor to become unconscious may seem like a very long time during a gun fight. You've already missed #1 and #2 which are the fast ways. You have to hit a major artery/major organ at least once and preferably more than once. How will the Judge do here, compared to let's say a single projectile per shot from a 45 auto?

I included two photos of a target shot from a S&W Governor, both at 20 ft. One is two shots with the Federal 000 buckshot load, the other is a single shot from the Winchester 3-disk PDX load. The ruler in both photos is 6" long.
My aiming point is the X between the four bullseyes. All 8 pellets from the two Federal shells are in a group of about 4 inches. The single shot from the PDX1 is about an inch grouping of the 3 disks.

I'm not yet convinced on the penetration of the PDX1 round, but I believe the Federal 000 penetration is good.

So, you be the Judge. At this point, my opinion is that the Federal rounds may not be so bad for #3.

oldfool
October 14, 2011, 07:55 PM
just curious...which of those (8) 4" target bulleyes was the CNS POI supposed to be ?
(or the snakes head, if you prefer)
just kidding, just kidding.. :)

hint, take a 6" ruler and hold one end of it on your nose
(in front of a mirror, and check that 4" or better distance mark, do same starting from your adam's apple or heart mark, etc.)
ay, there's the rub, most anything penetrates an ear lobe real well

You made some great points there, nonseven
but at 20 feet and closing, with deadly weapon and intent, counting on #3 bleedout is a lost cause, friend, any caliber
choose whatever you use, but shoot a little faster
(and if this is for "at home", a 12 gauge shell holds a lot more of them 000, you know) ;)

PS
we going for 200 posts on this round folks ?

correction -
whoops, he did say that he chose in-between for "X" POA.. not bad
but most anybody can group that well at <7 yards on a standing still non-aggressive target, and most any centerfire round will penetrate whatever a 000 pellet will
and same center of group hit with just one anything 38 to 50 caliber would do same or better
but you be da' Judge of that
and if you expect 'em to bleed out, best hope you have legit reason to open fire before they close to 20 feet

oldfool
October 14, 2011, 09:14 PM
really folks, it do get too mean spirited, it do, but I just don't get the stretch efforts some put out there to justify da' Judge as somehow better
(or even "as good as")

it can work, within limitations, but everything has limitations, and four pellets of 000 have more limitations than a whole lot of "other"
those disk loads may penetrate, but 45 acp, 357 mag, and a bunch of others do, proven track record

it's a too oversized, heavy 5-shot revolver with a too short barrel, even with 45LC loads

one-shot-stops happen for a lot of reasons, but CNS one-hit-kills under gunfight stress are far more luck than anything else, even for the best of the best, when even IPDA winning split times might very well not deliver CNS stops

bleed out is wishful thinking at a few feet (and fewer seconds)

in-the-car and being attacked... the shot is from the driver seat to the passenger window; it ain't even a measly 10 feet. The average width of a 2-lane highway lane is eleven feet with room to spare for cars going in opposite directions. If you cannot hit the passenger window with any handgun whilst sitting in the drivers seat, you need something more than buckshot for help, no kidding.

a snubbie barrel hand shotgun in 410 for a newbie, or someone who is unwilling to practice with some/any centerfire caliber handgun, is going to make magic happen... get real

snakes, snakes, snakes
yes it can kill snakes... as in better than what ???

no, shotshells do not "clear hallways" like hand grenades, not in 12 or 10 gauge, much less in 410, much less in 410 000x4

If you can handle the stress and make the shot within 2" of POA center, as in nonseven's target #2, you will do better than most (with anything you use). If you really think one disk load out of a 410 shell will stop 'em quicker than one same hit with a 9 or 38 or 44 or 45, go for it. If they be trying to kill you from 20 yards instead of 20 feet, you can always wait until they get closer ?

I live in a very modest size ordinary house, but if they crawl in the far end window with intent to come down the "center aisle" (a well framed target opportunity twice enroute) with a weapon in hand, they be 60 feet, 20 yards, from my bedroom door, not 5 or 10 feet, and I won't be throwing mini-frisbees at 'em, but that's just me. YMMV

hey, if it's fun, it's fun
if it works, use it
but quit trying to pretend it's magic
new & improved... neither... not in previous incarnations and not now

NM Mountainman
October 14, 2011, 11:27 PM
I can imagine that the 000 buck loads could be effective at short range. If you can afford a lot of guns, why not get a Judge to play around with? If your gun budget is limited, and you don't want to carry a bulky handgun, a 7 shot .357 revolver with 3" or 4" barrel will be more versatile in more situations.

Apple a Day
October 14, 2011, 11:58 PM
Pattern size doesn't mean much if it fails to penetrate.
I've actually tested a Judge (Ultra Lite 3" bbl.) and as a self-defense weapon I'd give it an F-.
A friend of mine was carrying one and I was thinking about getting one so I convinced him to come with me to the range. I lugged along some old textbooks. I've shot books with several different calibers to compare penetration. I'f you're interested in the full list do a search. Here's a very short sample for comparison:
Winchester 9x19mm, 115 grain HP +P went through the cover and ~500 pages from 25 yrds.
.410 000 buckshot from a 23" bbl went ~810 pages at 15 yards

I shot 00 buckshot, PDX-1 rounds, and #6 shot from the Judge and THEY ALL FAILED TO PENETRATE THROUGH THE FRONT COVER OF THE BOOK at 15 yards. After actually seeing how poorly it did with .410 shells I'd stick to the hottest .45 LC ammo I could find (assuming I was stuck with a Judge already). Otherwise, I'd spend the $ on something more traditional.

stolivar
October 15, 2011, 12:09 AM
I get around 3 inches with the federal premium 000. At 15 yards it is about 6 to 7 inches with the Governor.


steve

Kiln
October 15, 2011, 06:53 AM
Pattern size doesn't mean much if it fails to penetrate.
I've actually tested a Judge (Ultra Lite 3" bbl.) and as a self-defense weapon I'd give it an F-.
A friend of mine was carrying one and I was thinking about getting one so I convinced him to come with me to the range. I lugged along some old textbooks. I've shot books with several different calibers to compare penetration. I'f you're interested in the full list do a search. Here's a very short sample for comparison:
Winchester 9x19mm, 115 grain HP +P went through the cover and ~500 pages from 25 yrds.
.410 000 buckshot from a 23" bbl went ~810 pages at 15 yards

I shot 00 buckshot, PDX-1 rounds, and #6 shot from the Judge and THEY ALL FAILED TO PENETRATE THROUGH THE FRONT COVER OF THE BOOK at 15 yards. After actually seeing how poorly it did with .410 shells I'd stick to the hottest .45 LC ammo I could find (assuming I was stuck with a Judge already). Otherwise, I'd spend the $ on something more traditional.
I'm interested in this. I'm going to do some phonebook tests with my .410 derringer next time I go out. I don't really rely on it for defense but I do load it with PDX-1 as a secondary because it claims to be a half decent defensive round from a short barrel.

Apple a Day
October 15, 2011, 09:09 AM
Here's a link to my previous thread (with the pic's of the target book).
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=615359&highlight=Judge

Note: the rounds that penetrated in the pic were the .45 LC which penetrated ~270 pages for comparison.
Kiln, please, post pictures when you do! I'd love to see more testing.
One of these days I'm going to stop being so cheap and buy some ballistic gel.

Kiln
October 15, 2011, 09:56 AM
Here's a link to my previous thread (with the pic's of the target book).
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=615359&highlight=Judge

Note: the rounds that penetrated in the pic were the .45 LC which penetrated ~270 pages for comparison.
Kiln, please, post pictures when you do! I'd love to see more testing.
One of these days I'm going to stop being so cheap and buy some ballistic gel.
You should wet the book next time and see how it compares. I always soak mine with water before firing just for kicks...I'm just curious which one penetrates better between wet and dry books, there's no real scientific reason though.

Fatelvis
October 30, 2011, 01:14 PM
The Judge? Not a good shotgun, not a good handgun
I agree. When I first saw the commercial showing it, I just thought "why?" And, besides, it's made by Taurus.... :barf:

V1ROT8
December 24, 2011, 12:07 PM
The Black Friday sales got me and I purchased a Taurus Judge Public Defender model. Price was $369.95. Was amazed at the number being sold. Almost 100 before noon. Now, have shot this Judge and it works as advertised. Would not carry this weapon but it will be available to use in our home. Tried both the Remington and the Federal 410 personal defense rounds and was very pleased.

Loosedhorse
December 24, 2011, 12:37 PM
I handled a Circuit Judge revolving rifle a while back. (There will be no Judge handguns sold in MA.) Other than the novelty, it didn't grab me.

However, I just got a chance to handle a Governor. Light weight (scandium alloy frame with titanium pins), tritium front sight, available CT laser grip, ability to use .45ACP in clips (2-shot, half- and full-moon)...

I can understand someone not liking the concept of a handgun shooting .410. But if you accept the concept for whatever application, this is a well thought-out gun.

YMMV

khegglie
December 25, 2011, 12:43 AM
I want to cite Skribs for a valiant effort here!!

Prosser
December 25, 2011, 01:08 AM
I watched a gunsmith check 3 guns, Judges, new from the factory. Two were ok. The third had a bent ejector rod, and getting it straight took awhile. Gun wouldn't fire or work out of the box.

Prosser
December 25, 2011, 01:12 AM
wrong thread

Fatelvis
December 25, 2011, 10:52 AM
Prosser, so basically you are stating that 1 out of every three Judges are no good, and there's something a little crooked about them? I would agree with that......Lol

gbran
December 25, 2011, 11:04 AM
Dad has one of the Judges. After shooting it extensively I've drawn the following conclusions:

Inside of 10 feet it may be pretty effective at stopping a threat. Notice I didn't say "killing" a threat. I can't imagine taking a facefull of shot and continuing any aggression.

I think it's a far better alternative to pepper spray in the home. It's a little too big for ccw.

I think I'll stay with my other handguns for self defense and ccw. If I want to shoot snakes, I'll just use shotshells for my other calibers.

bassdogs
December 25, 2011, 12:26 PM
Since it would be bad for his image, I doubt that Santa would carry a long gun in his sleigh. A Judge on the other hand would fit quite nicely in several places including on his person. With that said so would any number of other handguns. In Ak, he would for sure have the 44mag, but just about every where else, a Judge might just be the ticket. I left one on the table with the cookies and milk last night and it was gone this AM so if you're down the road, don't give him any cr*p!

Now its time to curl up by the fire and enjoy the day. Ho Ho Ho and Merry Christmas to all, even the Judge haters.

Prosser
December 25, 2011, 03:55 PM
"Prosser, so basically you are stating that 2 out of every three Juges are no good, and there's something a little crooked about them? I would agree with that......"
:D

I might suggest you touch up on your logic skills.;)

I will say it would be really suck to be the person that buys that 3rd judge, and how did it ever get out of the factory?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

goon
December 25, 2011, 04:12 PM
In spite of the quality issues associated with the Judge, many people really do seem to develop a fascination with them. Seems every time I go to the range I find half a box of .45 Colt empties (usually CCI Blazer Aluminum case stuff) and a bunch of .410 empties in the trash or on the ground around the benches. I don't think they really are as versatile as some think they are, but I think the novelty of being able to stuff a .410 round into a revolver helps sell a lot of them.

BigSteve57
December 28, 2011, 08:25 AM
The 3" Judge we own has been fine.

It shoots 45 LC well enough at 10 yards and the .410 would be great for varmints at the same range. It would be a handgun I would gladly take with me on a walk/hike in the woods.

It's not advertising, trying to be or costing like a high end revolver such as a Freedom Arms.

weregunner
December 28, 2011, 12:00 PM
How did the 1 in 3 thing come about. You gots data the rest of don't? :)

That would be news to the fans whwo congregate here.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/judge/

Prosser
December 29, 2011, 03:12 AM
Nevada gun retailer that refuses to trust Taurus/Judge quality control. He sends the new guns to a gunsmith, prior to sale, to make sure they work.

evan price
December 29, 2011, 07:31 AM
Big. Heavy. Inaccurate. Clumsy. An answer to a question nobody asked, probably created by marketing.
Instead of a short cylinder with a short jump to the forcing cone of a 45 LC, we have a 2.5" or 3" cylinder to fit the 410 shotshell and forcing the 45 LC bullet to jump through the oversize cylinder bore and lose pressure. Plus the extra weight of the cylinder is not insignificant.

I wouldn't want to carry this gun as a CCW. You could carry a full-frame 1911 instead and have a better gun- faster to reload, more accurate, higher magazine capacity, lighter weight.

On a ranch or farm for varmints it wouldn't be too bad. As an anti-bad guy gun, would you really want to carry a 410 shotgun for bad guys? And if you load with slugs- not much better than 45 LC, and a nice DA revolver in 45 LC will be lighter, easier to handle, and more accurate.

Yes, I have shot the Judge, and have a family member that owns one. Not my cuppa tea.

weregunner
December 29, 2011, 02:54 PM
I love the second hand posts with no verifiable facts or data. Figures.

Maybe you ought go through some of the links that've been brought that has to do with actual Judge ammo use and the ammo actual performance.

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