[10 Ringer']

Since the preferred method of carry of most 1911 owners is cocked and locked, I was wondering why it is considered safer to carry a gun this way? Please, spare no technical detail, I'm a novice in some areas but a nuts and bolts kinda guy and love to learn how and why things work. Any good all around book on the 1911 is certainly on my list of "to reads."

From my perspective though, I'd think there's naturally a higher risk in the potential energy of a cocked hammer putting a load on a spring than a hammer down on a full chamber. I'd think it would be cool to be able to have a 1911 with hammer down and round in chamber just like a transfer bar SA revolver so all you had to do is draw on a bad guy and cock it as you unholster.

Makes me wonder why somebody hasn't figured out a way to modify the 1911 to be safe in a "locked but not cocked" condition without having to rack the slide to put a fresh .45 in the tube. Thanks for any input.

[ClarkEMyers]

For instance a squeeze cocker is out there as well as the Seecamp double action conversion followed by Colt's version and the current which with LDA is a nice trigger.

Since you ask I'll admit I've seen a negligent discharge dropping the hammer on a loaded chamber but never seen one cocked and locked - so for my money cocked and locked is safer than dropping the hammer on a loaded chamber.

That said there have been holsters adapted to cocking on the draw and there was an Air Policeman whose name escapes me, see Chic Gaylord's Handgunner's Guide who was quite handy with a variety of carries that met his duty requirements. He had some extra incentive of course - having been shot while carrying safely.

[McNutt]

I'm not sure why you think cocked and locked is unsafe. What mode of carry is safe to you for a gun? Glocks and revolvers go off whenever you pull the trigger. Guns with a manual safety have to have the safety disengaged and then the gun will go off when the trigger is pulled. 1911s must have two manual safeties disengaged and have the trigger pulled before the gun can fire. To me it sounds safer than the other two.

A cocked hammer might look scary, but on a 1911 it's not dangerous. Just try to imagine a situation where a cocked and locked 1911 would accidentally go off. I can't think of one. It's very safe and extremely quick to bring to "cocked and unlocked".

[mgjohn]

Here you go --- Safety Fast Shooting Kit


http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfs.htm


Prior to the introduction of the S.F.S. system, the single action 1911 or the Browning Hi-Power could be carried in three modes:
1. Chamber empty, hammer down.
2. Chamber loaded, hammer down.
3. Chamber loaded, hammer cocked, safety locked.

To eliminate these three methods of carrying the Single Action pistol, the double action pistol mechanism was developed, allowing the hammer to be cocked by pulling the trigger. However, a double action pistol requires a heavier trigger pull and a longer movement of the trigger. This can be detrimental to accuracy because the different positioning of the trigger for the first shot may disturb the shooter. To offer a safer weapon, some manufacturers introduced an additional manual safety which made handling the pistol more confusing.


The S.F.S. System eliminates all three of these carry modes and the problems associated with a double action pistol, creating a safer method of carry, faster use, and better accuracy. The S.F.S. system allows the pistol to be carried with the chamber loaded and the hammer down. When the pistol is carried in this condition, the hammer is locked, the sear is locked, the slide cannot be opened, and the trigger is locked

[Wildalaska]

If it makes y7a nervous, get the C&S SFS kit as described above,,,

WildlikescockedandlockedAlaska

[BluesBear]

Makes me wonder why somebody hasn't figured out a way to modify the 1911 to be safe in a "locked but not cocked" condition without having to rack the slide to put a fresh .45 in the tube. They did.
It's called the Colt Series 80.

[Rival]

http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm

[Cameron Lamont]

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm

[Cthulhu]

I'd think it would be cool to be able to have a 1911 with hammer down and round in chamber just like a transfer bar SA revolver so all you had to do is draw on a bad guy and cock it as you unholster.

Given that scenario, You'd be cool, to be certain. It would definitely take several hours to achieve though, as your body cools after you were viciously gunned down mid-draw by the aforementioned bad guy.

It's a 1911, not a Single Action Army Revolver. Colt's series 80/90 modifications make what you propose possible, but that doesn't make it a good idea. Search the archives for recent discussions on why Condition 2 in a 1911 is slower and (in practice) less safe than carrying C&L. Some contain a good argument against condition 3 and the so called "Israeli Method" as well. If, after reading the page provided by Rival and browsing the various 1911 resources available on the web, you still are nervous about the safety of Condition 1, I strongly suggest that you carry a different handgun that has your confidence when it comes to safety.

[1911Tuner]

Here is a cut and paste from another thread on a test that I did a while back...before I posted it...before there was an internet or a High Road
Forum.

The basic reason that carrying a single-action autopistol hammer down on a
hot chamber is unsafe is that it requires pulling the trigger and controlling the hammer. If the hammer slips, the gun is in the same mode as it would be if the trigger was simply pulled. To wit: You just told it to fire. In a perfect world, we don't drop guns or allow hammers to get loose from our thumbs, but perfection only exists in the mind of God. If your thumb slips off
the hammer before it gets well past the halfway point in its arc, the gun will fire..and the responsibility of whatever takes the hit is squarely on you.

By loading the chamber and engaging the safety, you are telling the gun NOT to fire, and...barring a mechanical defect...it won't.

Note that dropping a pre-Series 80 Colt or any 1911 on the muzzle without a passive firing pin block can cause the inertial firing pin to reach the primer with enough force to fire the round. The remedy is to put a fresh firing pin spring in the pistol about every 4 or 5,000 rounds. Cheap insurance for less than a buck a copy.
----------------------------------------------

Although I do like the extra security of a Series 80 type passive firing pin block for Con-1 in an open topped holster, the pre-Series 80/Series 2s
are not prone to discharge from this mode.

I used a Dremel to grind about an eighth of an inch from the nose of an
old sear, and installed it in a pistol, using two different hammers for the test. One was an old GI hammer with a broken hook, and the other was
a Series 80 Colt hammer with the safety shelf instead of the true half-
cock notch. Going further, the one good hook on the GI hammer was
ground until it would jar off with a tap on the spur with a plastic mallet.
This was necessary because the sear would still allow full cock and wouldn't
fall without pulling the trigger. I ran this test to determine whether the
pistol would fire if the sear nose failed.

Jarring the hammer off the hooks wouldn't allow the hammer to fall past the half-cock notch with 50 attempts. The Series 80 hammer also had the
hooks ground off to let the hammer bump off the sear. The shelf caught
it 50 times, and never allowed the face of the hammer to reach the firing pin. I reached the conclusion that the sear would have to break in two
or three separate pieces before it would let the hammer fall to the pin.

Going a step further, I completely removed the hammer hooks so that I had to hold the hammer back and release it. I then engaged the thumb safety to see if it would slow the hammer's fall. It did slow it a little, but
the half-cock notch stopped it cold...so I then removed the notch and
ground an angle to allow the hammer to get past the sear, and repeated the test with a primed case in the chamber. It took 37 attempts before I
got the primer to fire. Keep in mind that 1/8 inch of the sear nose was
missing.

Safe to carry in Condition One? I think so.

Cheers!
Tuner

[Sean Smith]

Interesting how the people who think Condition One is unsafe can't explain how a failure could actually happen, while the folks who think Condition One is safe can explain in very precise terms the systems in place to prevent a failure.

The anti-C&L folks seem to have one argument, that they present in various forms: "It looks scary!"

No kidding, it is a GUN. It isn't supposed to look like Strawberry Shortcake's bloomers or something. :rolleyes:

[1911Tuner]

Sean said:

No kidding, it is a GUN. It isn't supposed to look like Strawberry Shortcake's bloomers or something.

ROFL...May I use that?:cool:

[cornbread2]

A lot of people I know DO carry their 1911 hammer down on a loaded chamber.

Like 1911 tuner I did all the cocked and locked tests almost exactly as he did.

I know the 1911 is safe to carry cocked and locked.

I also did a lot of tests on hammer down carry.

It is a 100% complete load of BS that is unsafe to CARRY it hammer down.

The SAFETY PROBLEM IS GETTING THE HAMMER DOWN WITHOUT AN AD. After the hammer is safely down it IS safe.

It is a myth that a blow to the hammer will fire a hammer down 1911. I know because I done this test with a primed case with three different 1911s. I even beat the hammer with a ball peen shop hammer on an old junker I used to own.

The second myth is that the hammer can get caught on something and be pulled back and released firing the pistol. More BS. The half cock notch will not allow this to happen.

Now before everyone goes nuts calling me an idiot for reccomending this type of carry I DO NOT RECCOMEND THIS TYPE CARRY. NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL.

I am only explaining that it is a myth that it is dangerous.

As far as dropping a 1911 on the muzzle and having a AD from the firing pin ineritia yes that IS possible BUT not as likely to happen with the hammer down.

Why?

Because with the hammer cocked the firing pin is further away from the primer. If droped on the muzzle it will hit the primer harder than it would with the hammer down. Think about it.

Now for those people who INSIST on carring a 1911 hammer down I will explain how to lower the hammer without shooting off important body parts.

Place your thumb between the hammer and frame. Pull the trigger and let the hammer rest on your thumb. RELEASE THE TRIGGER. Now the half cock notch will prevent an AD IF you screw up.

Slowly let the hammer down untill it hits the half cock notch.

Not carefully let the hammer down the rest of the way. If you screw up now the hammer will not be cocked enough to have an AD.

[cornbread2]

1911 tuner.

I respect your opinions because unlike the vast majority you PERSONALY test your guns and KNOW how they work and KNOW if they are safe or not.

Now one question.

Would you still carry your 1911 cocked and locked if it had NO half cock notch or firing pin lock or ANYTHING else to stop the fall of the hammer if things went wrong?

[1911Tuner]

cornbread asked:

Would you still carry your 1911 cocked and locked if it had NO half cock notch or firing pin lock or ANYTHING else to stop the fall of the hammer if things went wrong?

Let me first ask a question or three.

Do you hunt? How many have taken the field with a shotgun or a striker
fired rifle? How many servicemen have carried an M-1, M-14, or M-16
cocked with the safety engaged? That's cocked and locked too, even
though most people don't consider that. The double shotgun doesn't have a half-cock...Neither does the pump or self-shucking scattergun. Bolt-action
rifles don't either, yet we carry them at the ready with a chambered round,
cocked hammer or striker, with the safety engaged, and many designs block the trigger only.

The Glock autopistol is striker-fired, and when the slide is racked to chamber a round, the striker is poised to...strike! If the mechanical
device that holds that striker fails, the gun will fire...yet we don't
give a second thought to the Glock's Condition Zero.

The 1911 has a device to block the sear and the trigger, which makes it
no less safe than the cocked/locked shotgun, and a bit "safer" than the
Glock. Would I carry a 1911 in condition One with a missing half-cock? Remember that part of my experiment involved removing the half-cock notch, Holding the hammer past the full-cock position, and releasing it.
The thumb safety slowed the hammer down and prevented a discharge
36 times...on the same primer. In order to give the pistol every opportunity to fire, I used Federal primers..which have a reputation for being touchy. CCI Mil-Spec or even Winchester primers likely would have
withstood much more before detonating.

Would I? Yessir. If it made me nervous, there are a mulititude of
holsters out there that impose a strap between hammer and slide,
and I would carry in one of those.

Bottom line...

"It's NOT safe. It's a GUN!"

[Tamara]

The Glock autopistol is striker-fired, and when the slide is racked to chamber a round, the striker is poised to...strike! If the mechanical
device that holds that striker fails, the gun will fire...yet we don't
give a second thought to the Glock's Condition Zero.

FWIW, at rest the Glock's striker doesn't have enough inertia to bust a cap, as it resets to the half-cock position. Pulling the trigger draws it rearward to full-cock before releasing it.

[1911Tuner]

Tamara said:

FWIW, at rest the Glock's striker doesn't have enough inertia to bust a cap, as it resets to the half-cock position. Pulling the trigger draws it rearward to full-cock before releasing it.

Ahhhh...And it seems that I learn somethin' every day. Good to know.
Truth is, that I haven't been too interested in Glocks. They just don't fit my
hand.

[jem375]

I carry in condition 2 all the time and have done so for many years.

[1911Tuner]

jem said:

I carry in condition 2 all the time and have done so for many years.

I have also done so, but can't advise it in any case. Might I suggest a
two-foot thick stack of old newspapers to stop a bullet in the event that
your thumb slips? Cheap, effective, sits out of the way in a corner or closet...and could spare you a world of grief in that once-in-a-lifetime
OOPS!

By far, the safest method that I've found for lowering the hammer on a hot chamber is by reaching over the top of the slide with the weak hand, and
grasping the sides of the hammer in a pinch with thumb and forefinger.
Push backward on the hammer to make sure that you have full control of
it before pulling the trigge, and lower the hammer in full pinch.

With this method, the weak hand is opposing the strong hand, with the
thumb on the left side of the hammer and the finger on the right. It
feels a little clumsy the first few times, but it grows on you.

The slick method of using the strong thumb to pull the hammer against the grip safety to disengage it and pulling the trigger to effect the hammer drop
one-handed is a time bomb. Whenever I see anybody do that, I make a mental note to avoid his company. I've seen several ADs while lowering the hammer on a pistol...and not all were 1911s. One resulted in a dead
German Shepherd, and a wife that was white as a sheet for an hour afterward. Ever heard a .44 Magnum go off in a kitchen without hearing
protection? Awesome! It didn't do anything for the water pipes in the basement either.

Careful! The life you save might be mine!

Tuner

[cornbread2]

The Glock's striker is really less than half cocked and it has a firing pin lock to prevent an AD.

[cornbread2]

I posted the safest way to lower the hammer on a 1911.

Lowering it any other way is where people screw up.

The best thing to do is just put the safety on and don't worry about.

Cocked and locked is the best form of carry for the 1911.

[1911Tuner]

T'was said:

The Glock's striker is really less than half cocked and it has a firing pin lock to prevent an AD.

I stand corrected. Like I said...Glocks ain't my cup of tea. :D

[Hot brass]

If you want a 1911 with a safe carry option try the Para Carry.

[cornbread2]

1911 tuner.

Now you know the Glock is basically a DAO.

Most all single action auto pistols have something to stop the fall of the hammer or striker if the sear fails.

You know how the 1911 works. The safety and the half cock notch stops the fall of the hammer.

The Springfield XD is a single action pistol. The grip safety blocks the sear and a firing pin lock stops the fall of the striker if the sear should fail or the slide come loose from the frame.

I don't know but I am told that even the POS Highpoint has a firing pin lock.

The only single action auto pistols that I am aware of that do not have something to stop the fall of the hammer or striker is the Jennings, Bryco type junk and the Steyr M series.

One can get by with rifles with only a sear blocking safety because they are useally not carried by everyone in public everyday with a loaded chamber.

Hunting rifles are not left loaded all the time and are not carried 7 days a week all year.

Good old rifles such as the Mauser were very safe. They had a two stage trigger with a bunch of sear engagement and a safety that locks the firing pin.

The M-14 and Garand's manaul safety blocks the hammer. The M-16 AR -15 has a sear blocking safety but they have a lot of sear engagement.

[ReadyontheRight]

An oldie but a goodie:

A little old lady sees a Texas Ranger with a 1911A1 on his hip, cocked & locked. She says to the ranger "Young man, is that pistol cocked?" He says "Yes Ma'am, it is." She says "Isn't that dangerous?" He says "Yes Ma'am, it is."

[1911Tuner]

Cornbread...I understand all that. My point was that the fear of the cocked and locked single-action pistol is mostly a matter of perception. We don't worry about the others because we can't see the hammer. None of them is
any more or less safe than the human being who carries the gun.

The 1911s that predated the lawyer parts are inherently as safe to carry in Condition One as the ones that do have the lawyer parts. The 1911 pistol
has plenty of sear engagement too...as long as nobody removes it in the pursuit of a trigger pull that belongs on a target pistol. As far as the
Glock's DAO option, note that double-action revolvers are involved in
accidents too. DA isn't a guarantee...It just forces the idiots to work harder at shooting themselves and other people.

If cocked and locked makes you nervous, either carry it in leather that blocks the hammer or carry a revolver.

Cheers!

[cornbread2]

I agree with you 100%.

The thing I see all the time is some people do not understand gun design enough to know what is safe and what is not.

I seen a guy trade a Glock for a Jennings 9mm.

He assumed the Jennings was safer because it had manaul safety.

The manaul safety on the Jennings only keeps an idiot from pulling the trigger.

The Jennings is not drop safe and anyone that understands gun design would not carry one with a loaded chamber.

[Bart Noir]

..if my carry gun could do that. But the Detective Special won't and the newly purchased (but not new) Glock 27 won't. I'll carry the Glock once I am satisfied that it is in working order.

Anyway, I have fired the Para Ordnance Light Double Action (LDA) and after a box , I liked it. Nice light trigger pull, and could be locked. And I fired a box or two through a Daewoo .40 caliber. Why did I mention Daewoo? It has a version of that Fast Action push-the-hammer-forward system. It also has the usual DA-SA operations, and can be carried cocked (hammer forward) and locked. A complicated weapon, actually.

So I get to my objection to these newer styles of firing systems: They are newer, have more, smaller parts, and have never been torture tested, and have not any extensive history. So who knows if they will fail or jam? I don't and am not going to bet my life on them.

I may be wrong about the torture test of the Daewoo. Anybody know if the South Koreans use this same version? If so, they probably made sure that it is reliable.

Bart Noir.

[45auto]

Like many things, it's what you become familiar with that seems "normal" or "safe".

I grew up with a 1911, so to speak, and the exposed hammer, cocked or not, is an easy(safe) indicator of whether the gun has potential to fire or not.

While the thought of cocked and locked can give some people the "willies", I can almost feel the same when "decocking" certain types of auto. Dropping a hammer down on a "loaded" chamber doesn't seem natural(safe) to me. But, they are safe...right :) .

[PCRCCW]

Let take it a step further.....carry the frame on one side and the slide on the other....in a defensive situation. Just put the gun togethor, load it and your set :D...................Kidding! Dont shoot.................


IMO, carry any gun the way they were designed to be carried. That means Cond 1 for a 1911...thats just the way it is in my CCW World.

What makes hammer down carry safer than having:

The thumb safety engaged blocking the sear/slide/trigger.
The hammer back with the 1/2 cock/safety notch to catch it.
The grip safety stopping the trigger from moving
(optional) Series 2 Kimber/80 Colt FPB from being activated by no grip safety movement.

All from being carried cocked and locked.

Ive seen people carry Cond 2 and if thats what floats their boat then so be it......I dont do it.

Shoot well.

[Vern Humphrey]

The M1911 was designed for cocked and locked carry -- in those days, the pistol was a serious weapon for a serious branch of the service, Cavalry.

Imagine trying to rack the slide to chamber a round on the back of a fractious and frightened horse. Imagine trying to lower the hammer while wrestling with a panicky and perhaps wounded horse!

FM 23-35, the manual on the pistol, offered only two modes of carry, what today we call Condition 1, and Condition 3.

I have seen pistols fire when the shooter was attempting to lower the hammer, and know of at least one case where a pistol on half-cock fired. A company commander in Viet Nam (a friend of mine) put his pistol on half cock, put it in the holster, and slung his M16. The butt of the rifle hit the hammer and BANG!

[cornbread2]

The most dangerous way one can carry a 1911 is on half cock.

[1911Tuner]

Cornbread said:

The most dangerous way one can carry a 1911 is on half cock.

Amen brother cawnbread! Testify!

[Vern Humphrey]

No, there is a MORE dangerous way to carry an M1911.

My friend, after he shot his bootheel off, put the pistol BACK on half-cock (which by now was broken and was simply a rough ledge on the tumbler) and carried it THAT way for the rest of his tour.

It was a few years later, when he was talking about the incident, I told him what he'd done.

He went white.:D

[inventory0297]

Its safer because you won't get killed (by a BG) while cocking your gun. Why carry an SA auto with the hammer down anyway?

[zahc]

FWIW, at rest the Glock's striker doesn't have enough inertia to bust a cap, as it resets to the half-cock position. Pulling the trigger draws it rearward to full-cock before releasing it.

YES

But, TTBOMK, the Springfield XD (similar, but with a grip safety) is in fact fully cocked. Which bothers me not the least.

With 1911s, C&L forever.

POSSIBLY cond three but NEVER cond. 2. JMO

[cornbread2]

One of the local "experts" carried his 1911 for at least 8 years with a loaded chamber and the hammer on half cock. There was no way he would carry it cocked and locked or hammer down.

I talked to this moron everytime I seen him and tried to make him understand just how dangerous it was. I had no luck.

One day he was working in his garage and he put his 1911 on a shelf over his work bench. While looking for a tool he knocked the 1911 off the shelf and it hit the concrete floor directly on the hammer.

The sear broke and the hammer went forward hard enough to fire the Federal match ball round and it went through his brand new roof missing his head by about one inch.

He no longer has a 1911 because he now claims they are dangerous.

If the moron had the hammer all the way down instead of on half cock the worst thing that would happened that day would have a dent in his floor and a little concrete dust on his hammer.

He is damn lucky to be alive today.

[Tamara]

He no longer has a 1911 because he now claims they are dangerous.

If the moron had the hammer all the way down instead of on half cock the worst thing that would happened that day would have a dent in his floor and a little concrete dust on his hammer.

God must love idiots, since he sure did make an awful lot of 'em, no? :uhoh:

[Old Fuff]

When the Colt Company introduced John Browning’s first .38 automatic pistol in 1900 it was intended that it would be carried with the hammer down on a loaded chamber, or hammer down on an empty one. Cocked & Locked was impossible because these guns had neither a grip safety nor a manual one. But this was in an age when Colt’s Single Action Army revolver was still popular, and the idea of drawing and then cocking a handgun was not considered to be unusual. In various variants Colt produced a series of these guns until 1929 when they were discontinued in favor of the .38 Super which was introduced that year. It is clear to me that if serious problems with unintentional discharges had arisen the pistol would have been modified to include a manual safety long before 1929.

It wasn’t that Browning didn’t know about grip and manual safeties. He incorporated both into the design of his 1903 Pocket Automatics. But these were “hammerless” guns that didn’t have an exposed hammer that could be cocked or lowered with the thumb.

However both were featured in the model 1911 design, which also had a hammer with a long, wide spur obviously for the purpose of thumb-cocking. In 1911 the thinking still held that the pistol should be carried and used the same way as older .38 pistols were.

While there were exceptions, most people that carried a Government Model pistol did so with the hammer down through the middle-latter 1950’s. This included myself, because it was “the right way” at the time. The only substantial exception I know of was the Texas Rangers, who not only carried in Condition One but sometimes carried two matched pistols as well.

The man who changed this was Jeff Cooper. I met him during the late 1970’s and before long saw the light and started using his method of carry. By then he had conclusively proved that the only way the pistol could be employed quickly (especially one-handed) was if the gun was Cocked & Locked.

However this doesn’t change the fact that during those years that I carried the pistol with the hammer down on a loaded chamber I didn’t experience any unexpected “bangs” and neither did my many friends who carried the same way. But of course, with very few exceptions, our guns didn’t have those little Commander-style hammers.

I have carried the Government Model in one form or another since I was 15, and that’s over a half century ago. During that time I’ve tried all of the various ways to carry, and I haven’t had any problems with any of them. I will admit that Cocked & Locked is perfectly safe – it’s just that it doesn’t look that way. But as long as I have a decent hammer spur I have no problems lowering or cocking the hammer regardless if the chamber is loaded or not. But given some of the hammers I see on today’s guns I’m not sure I would want to do this.

Anyway …. old habits die hard. I’d say a person should use whatever way they’re comfortable with, and practice with an unloaded gun until they’ve got it down pat.

[Tamara]

However both were featured in the model 1911 design, which also had a hammer with a long, wide spur obviously for the purpose of thumb-cocking. In 1911 the thinking still held that the pistol should be carried and used the same way as older .38 pistols were.

This is popular, conventional wisdom, but incorrect. It is contradicted by all the original U.S. Army field manuals for the 1911, which indicate that the pistol is to be carried in Condition 1 in the front lines and in Condition 3 in the rear areas.

(See pages 11 and 12 of FM 23-35...)

[JPM70535]

I'll be the first to agree that condition 1 carry is perfectly safe,as long as everything functions as designed. JMB knew his design was safe to carry that way. The problem with cocked and locked carry has always been one of perception. The general public has been indoctrinated with the belief that this mode of carry is unsafe. This same public votes, legislates changes in fitrearms related law, and more importantly serve as Judges and Jurors in Criminal and Civil proceedings involving firearms. Their pre-disposition that condition 1 is unsafe will most certainly influence their actions.

It does our cause (promoting RKBA) no good to , as an example, to have JQ Public come in contact with a member of the local S.O., or P.D. carrying a cocked and locked 45. First impression to the uninitiated is that the Officer is a trigger happy Cowboy just itching to blast something at the drop of a hat.

IMO, that is the major reason that LE in general has never adopted SA autos for duty use, the negative P.R. is too great. That is most likely why most departments issue and use DA Autos, or Glock type pistols with no visible hammer to negatively impact the Public.

Even Glocks are beginning to get a reputation as being prone to ADs because of the lack of a seperate manually applied safety. While the Glock is perfectly safe to carry in a holster that keeps the trigger covered, and as long as reasonable care is exercised reholstering, the force necesary to cycle the trigger ( and yes I know about the triger mounted safety) I personally would not carry one just tucked into my waistband.

That is the one major advantage DA /SA autos have over SAs. The manual safety, rightly or wrongly gives the impression of safety when carried.

Although I have been a fan of DA/SA Autos for duty use, they do have the disadvantage of a vast difference in the first DA trigger pull and the subsequent SA trigger pulls. In their favor, they lok safe to JQ Public and with the manual safety applied are less prone to AD while being reholstered (Mexican carry included)

After all that, When I carry my Springfield Loaded, it is always condition 1 and always in a high quality holster. I feel completely safe even though I still get comments from the great unwashed masses about the hammer being cocked. Trying to explain that the gun is safe is usually a waste of time.

Since I have retired I carry mainly either a Para LDA, or a S&W 649 IWB at about 4-5 Oclock with or without holster and have no worries about either ones safety.



One

[Old Fuff]

Tamara:

When Browning designed the pistol FM 23-35 hadn't been written.

If you review contemporary firearms literature written during the years prior to World War Two you find very little or no reference to carrying the pistol cocked and locked. Examine if you will, holster catalogs of the same period and you'll always find the hammer is down (if you can see it at all). If you review pictures of earlier prototypes leading up to the 1911 you see the hammer spur getting longer and wider. The Army even considered a hammer with a spur that was almost vertical - intended for easier and more positive thumb cocking. I stand by my contention (and experience) that cocked & locked carry did not become popular until Co. Cooper came along.

[Tamara]

If you review contemporary firearms literature written during the years prior to World War Two you find very little or no reference to carrying the pistol cocked and locked.

Does a US Army (Cavalry) Field Manual for the 1911 from the 1920's count as "contemporary firearms literature written during the years prior to World War Two"? If so, it most certainly did prescribe C&L carry in the manual of arms...

If you'd like, I can go through the tedious process of borrowing it from a friend and scanning the relevant passages. :uhoh:

I stand by my contention (and experience) that cocked & locked carry did not become pouular until Co. Cooper came along.

I'll settle for one page from any U.S. Army field manual describing Condition Two as a proper method of carrying the M1911 or M1911A1.




The problem here is that we have a couple of generations of folks who served in the military but never used the M1911 as it was intended to be used. Four years of Condition Three carry on garrison duty in the 1970's tells us nothing about how the horse cavalry operated the pistol on Black Jack Pershing's Mexican Expedition (although I wager the cavalry manuals of the time might offer a hint: "Charge pistol. Apply Safety. Holster pistol.")

[Old Fuff]

Tamara:

You miss my point. I'm not saying that the Manual didn't authorize cocked & locked carry under some conditions. What I'm am saying is that Browning designed the pistol so that it could be carried in several modes, and that the way the hammer was designed was intended to further facilitate cocking and lowering it. Further, that it was the actual practice both in civilian and military circles (but particularly with civilians and the few law enforcement officers that used it) to carry with the hammer down prior to Col. Cooper's advocating a "New Technique." As a matter of fact I think he was right, and I learned this directly from him.

However none of this changes the fact that prior to BC (Before Cooper) most people didn't carry with the hammer cocked. As I said in an earlier post: People should decide what they are comfortable with, and then practice whatever they choose until they have it down pat.

Oh, one other thing to add: My personal observations don't date from the 1970's, but rather the late 1940's. And as I read the original post I thought it had more too do with whata civilians rather then the military did.

(edited to add last comment).

[cornbread2]

I agree back in the very early days the pistol WAS carried hammer down and that was the origional intent of JMB.

The average person in those days would NEVER carry a pistol with a cocked hammer.

It would go against EVERYTHING they were taught since they were kids and back in those days you would have been considered a damn fool if you walked around with a cocked pistol.

They grew up with the Colt SAA and other SA pistols and they would not consider carring their Colt SAA cocked so they would operate their new autos the same exact way.

I also agree that before Cooper the vast majority carried the 1911 hammer down or empty chamber.

[Shmackey]

It is a 100% complete load of BS that is unsafe to CARRY it hammer down. The SAFETY PROBLEM IS GETTING THE HAMMER DOWN WITHOUT AN AD. After the hammer is safely down it IS safe.

There's also the problem of getting the hammer cocked when you need it to be. Thumb-cocking a 1911 "on the fly" is tricky business.

Simply put, the only time anyone's thumb should touch the hammer on their 1911 is when they're dry-firing multiple times and they get tired of racking the slide.

[Sean Smith]

I agree back in the very early days the pistol WAS carried hammer down and that was the origional intent of JMB.

That seems like a rather vaccuous assumption on your part, given the presence of a thumb safety that is only useable if the hammer is COCKED.

More to the point, JMB's "intent" is irrelevant.

The 1911 was made to a military specification for use by the military... not on Browning's whim for his own fun. He was required to meet the MILITARY'S intent for the weapon, not the other way 'round. Once it was introduced in military service, the contemporary military manuals for the weapon directed that the pistol be carried cocked & locked if enemy action was to be expected. Hence THEIR intent for how the weapon was to be used is quite clear.

The military had the weapon designed to meet their requirements. Their manuals articulated their intent for its use to the end user. The fact that some people were too dumb to read the manual says nothing about how the weapon was meant to be used.

[antediluvianist]

From a previous post : "I'm not sure why you think cocked and locked is unsafe. What mode of carry is safe to you for a gun? Glocks and revolvers go off whenever you pull the trigger. Guns with a manual safety have to have the safety disengaged and then the gun will go off when the trigger is pulled. 1911s must have two manual safeties disengaged and have the trigger pulled before the gun can fire. To me it sounds safer than the other two."

The fact is that the Glock has a standard trigger pull of 5.5 lbs., and a typical S&W revolver has a DA trigger pull of about DOUBLE that (the revolver just lying around or in a holster is in DA mode so that's the trigger pull to talk about, not its SA pull.) This difference is quite significant, and means that the revolver has an inherent edge in safety - the Glock and revolver cannot be lumped together just because neither has a manual safety.

A revolver's DA trigger pull is also obviously much heavier than a 1911's (SA-only) trigger pull ,which in general is lighter than the Glock's.The much heavier revolver trigger pull is the safety - everybody knows this.

I will certainly agree that a revolver which is smithed to have a light DA trigger does not have this safety aspect.

[1911Tuner]

A certain politician whose name escapes me at the moment made a
clear and accurate statement during one of his anti-gun screeches.


He said:

"Guns are unsafe because they are designed to make holes in things."

Now, that was about as true and simple a statement as I've ever heard a
politician make...ever. Never mind that it could also be said of cordless
drills and staplers. He nailed it.

Bottom line...It's a GUN! It's NOT safe!

The safety is you.

Cheers!
Tuner

[cornbread2]

Could someone post a link to a WW-I or earlier military manaul that clearly shows that the troops in those days were instructed to carry the 1911 cocked and locked.

[Tamara]

This one (http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manual.htm) is from 1940, and seems to read the same as the one I saw, which was from the 1920's. Unless there was a drastic rethink of the manual of arms between 1917 and the '20s, I'd reckon the earliest ones read similarly. The manual of arms is found on pages 11 & 12...

[cornbread2]

The safety conserns about the 1911 on this thread involves drop safety and ADs.

It has nothing to do with NDs. Guns fire if the trigger is pulled. They have been made that way for hundreds of years.

An AD has NOTHING to do with a trigger pull light or heavy.

An AD has happened when a firearm fires WITHOUT a trigger pull.

Do 1911s have ADs? Useally not unless some moron carries it on half cock and drops it on the hammer. 1911 have built in safety features that are designed to prevent an AD if one carries it in the correct mode.

Do others guns have ADs. Yes some do. Most do not.

Single action striker fired autos such a Jennings, Bryco and such do.

An old style Colt SAA type revolvers will if one drops it on the hammer if it has a round under the hammer. That is why they are carried with only 5 rounds in the cylinder with an empty chamber under the hammer.


Some modern hunting rifles and shotguns have done so.

[BluesBear]

Anyone who has had much experience using older 1911 pattern pistols knows that those old long, wide, checkered hammers are very easy to thumbcock and uncock.

The Commander hammer as well as the newer style elongated ring hammers are a lot more difficult to cock and uncock.

The original 1911 hammer is not any harder to cock or uncock than a good revolver hammer.

My Government model is C&L when it is on my person. When it is in the safe or in the desk drawer next to the computer it is hammer down on a loaded chamber. OF course all of my 1911 pattern pistols have those old wonderful wide hammers on them. I even continue to buy extras for back up and future purchases.


Just my tuppence, I know many will disagree but it works mighty fine for me, YMMV.



etided fro speeling

[Mute]

"Guns are unsafe because they are designed to make holes in things."

Geez! Numbnuts must really hate power drills then.

[cornbread2]

Even the great Jeff Cooper one wrote that he does not always keep his 1911 cocked and locked.

He once wrote than while in the field he slept in a sleeping bag with his 1911 on a lynard around his neck with the pistol hammer down on a loaded chamber.

He wrote that he did not trust "sleepy hands" on a cocked pistol.

I would bet this old fellow did not shoot off any toes decocking the pistol.

[ClarkEMyers]

I wasn't there but I do credit reports of a cocked and locked 1911 in the holster firing on contact with the edge of a desk, nobody's hand near. Also the story of a Goldcup with its wide trigger being forced into a strongly boned holster for the narrow trigger/GI sight - bang!

That's why some departments used to forbid trigger shoes on double action revolvers for duty carry.

I believe the story of the new model Ruger Blackhawk loaded more or less safely 5 cartridges with an empty under the hammer in an open top holster on a horseman pushing through brush. The story goes that a twig pushed the hammer far enough back to advance the cylinder then the twig functioned as a transfer bar when the hammer fell forward presumably never having properly seated full cock on the notch.

There was a case in Lewiston Idaho 20 odd years ago of a reported accidental discharge with an old model Bearcat - the jury more or less decided happened to the right guy no award - I have to credit one expert of my personal acquaintance who said it was a gun ( worn lockwork?) failure that it fired (it was operator failure that it wasn't harmless)

Bill Ruger guns are at least as safe as anybody's.

Elmer Keith said "haven't had an accident yet" one in a million chances happen every day to somebody.

[45crittergitter]

What happens if the business end of the sear breaks off while it's cocked and locked? Nothing to hold the hammer or catch the half-cock.... Does the manual safety only block the sear? If so, and the sear breaks....

[1911Tuner]

crittergitter asked:

What happens if the business end of the sear breaks off while it's cocked and locked.

The half-cock will still stop it. Go back and read the post on my experiment.
I removed about 1/8th inch from the top of the sear to check it. It even
caught the hammer hooks and held at full cock. I had to grind off the hammer hooks so I could get the hammer to fall to half-cock.

Cheers!
Tuner

[SW9mm]

http://www.sightm1911.com/ this is a good sight to find out about 1911's. somewhere in this site is what sold me about c&l carry. it reads if the sear and hammer notches were to fail, and the safety is on, the hammer still cannot move foward to strike the firing pin. the safety physically gets in the way of the hammer on the way down. condition 1 seems pretty fool proof to me once you understand the interaction of all the parts of the safety mechanism.

[SW9mm]

What do we mean by “cocked and locked”? The M1911 pistol is loaded by inserting a charged magazine and racking the slide. This action chambers a cartridge and cocks the hammer of the pistol. The thumb safety is then pushed up toward the sight. This “locks” the pistol. The safety is on and the slide will not move. Inside the gun, a piece of the safety rotates (red area in diagram) and blocks the base of the sear which prevents the sear from releasing the hammer. If the sear hook on the hammer were to break, the sear would be captured by the half-cock notch preventing an accidental discharge. The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged. You can assemble the weapon with no sear at all and cock the hammer and engage the safety and it can't hit the firing pin because of the stud. Multiple redundancy!
this is a quote from the link i posted above The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged. that statement is the key to condition 1 safety to me

http://www.sightm1911.com/

[1911Tuner]

SW9mm said:

this is a quote from the link i posted above The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.

It's true that it's designed to impede the hammer, but I wouldn't bet a lotta
long green on all of'em actually stoppin' it. In about half the ones that I've examined, the falling hammer will push the safety off and into the fire position. It will, however, impede the hammer enough to prevent a discharge. It doesn't matter at any rate. The half-cock will stop the hammer before it can get to that point, even if the sear breaks, unless it
shatters into pieces.

Cheers!
Tuner

[SW9mm]

by being the key i meant if all the others weren't enough already here was another one i hadn't known before. i thought to myself this condition one thing is a no brainer safety wise.

[1911Tuner]

SW9mm said:

by being the key i meant if all the others weren't enough already here was another one i hadn't known before. i thought to myself this condition one thing is a no brainer safety wise.

Ay-greed! And if there wasn't enough, Colt added yet another one
with the Series 80s. Many don't like the Series 80 pistols, but I like'the
extra-extra security, even though I know I don't need it. Can't stand to
lose any meat offa my old skinny as it is.:D

As has been noted through the years. Seeing that hammer at full cock
unnerves some people. The ones who understand it simply smile when they see a 1911 in Con-1. It's as safe as YOU are, or to quote a Rusky...

...eet eez a GON! eet eez NOT safe!

Cheers!
Tuner

[45crittergitter]

Thanks much, 1911 and SW9! :)