You guys duplicate SD rounds with XTP?


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MrWesson
September 25, 2011, 01:11 PM
I want to duplicate 9mm Hornady critical defense which I believe uses xtp bullets. I dont want to carry or use these loads but want to make sure my gun can feed them reliably.

Assuming XTP and Hornady critical defense use the same bullet I should just find the right OAL and velocity and it should fire similar.. right?

Keep in mind I am not worried about flash but would help to know the type of powder used(not exact but faster vs slower) so I can get similar results.

I would like to put a 1-200 rounds of these rounds through my gun to be sure but its not feasible for me to spend 100-$200 on ammo.

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cfullgraf
September 25, 2011, 01:19 PM
Assuming XTP and Hornady critical defense use the same bullet I should just find the right OAL and velocity and it should fire similar.. right?

.

Yes. But you will need access to a chronograph. You will be amazed how much difference publish data could vary from your pistol.

There is always a chance with components available, you may not be able to duplicate the factory ammunition performance before bumping into the pressure limits.

Mike1234567
September 25, 2011, 01:37 PM
Critical Defense uses the FTX bullet... essentially the same as XTP but the FTX has the polymer plug.

JDGray
September 25, 2011, 01:53 PM
Power Pistol should get you the velocity you want for SD practice rounds.

bds
September 25, 2011, 01:53 PM
Keep in mind I am not worried about flash but would help to know the type of powder used(not exact but faster vs slower) so I can get similar results.
I use factory Remington Golden Saber and Speer Gold Dot JHP for SD/HD and buy same bullets in bulk to reload for practice and load backup SD/HD rounds (Gold Dot is now Deep Curl).

I used to use Winchester Super Field as the designated powder for 9/40/45 SD/HD loads but been looking at the new Winchester AutoComp as it has been producing higher velocities with softer recoil and no apparent pressure spike issues. Hodgdon has load data for all popular pistol calibers and most bullet weights.

Galil5.56
September 25, 2011, 03:11 PM
Matching CD 1140-1150 fps and a 115 grain XTP bullets... You will have lots of choices of propellants to do this easily. My two favorites are Unique and Power Pistol, with WW231 being outstanding too. Verifying my loads with a chronograph, the above mentioned velocities are very easy to do, and mostly well under my particulars data max rated charges.

MrWesson
September 25, 2011, 03:34 PM
I had the choice of the 3 powders I own

Bullseye,wsf and blue dot

I choose blue dot because it works great at +p and near +p loads.

I used 1.1 OAL and enough powder to get me around 1100-1150fps(theoretical).

gamestalker
September 25, 2011, 04:15 PM
What is the velocity range of these critical defense rounds for 9mm anyway. I mean, once we have an established velocity to work with the rest is failry easy to accomplish.

MrWesson
September 25, 2011, 04:37 PM
I think I found it at 1140fps and tried my best to get close. My main goal is to find a good SD loadout for a PF9. I would prefer 147gr but hear they dont like them but its case by case. I would hate to invest $50 to find out vs 20ish for 100 bullets.

I wish I had a place to do some ballistic testing but everywhere I shoot is either indoors/no cold range or wont allow anything other than paper targets.

rcmodel
September 25, 2011, 04:45 PM
I think I found it at 1140fpsThat is the manufactures published velocity.

In the real world, in a real gun, over a real chronograph, it is very doubtful they will be going that fast.

Your best bet without a chronograph is to pick a medium burn rate powder like several others have suggested.

Then work up a handload that throws ejected brass in the same pile with the Critical Defense factory loads.
That should tell you your slide velocity & recoil impulse is very close.

rc

Walkalong
September 25, 2011, 06:08 PM
I did the same thing with 200 Gr Gold Dots in .45. I bought 100 and reloaded them. They ran flawlessly in my Kimber, so I bought some Speer +P 200 Gr Gold Dots to carry. To be fair, that gun runs everything I have tried flawlessly, including XTP's and Golden Sabers.

Your WSF will get you the velocity you want. Blue Dot should as well.

Redneck with a 40
September 25, 2011, 06:23 PM
With longshot and 155 grain XTP's in 40 S&W, I can get 1250 fps across the chrono with 9 grains. That beats the factory load at around 1200. However, its very snappy and loud, not pleasant to shoot. I only loaded 50 of'em for backcountry carry on my ATV.

Hodgdon claims 1150 fps with 8.5 grains of Longshot behind a 180 grain bullet, but I'm not going to try it, I think it'll pound the pistol.

jfh
September 25, 2011, 06:36 PM
rcmodel's comments should be emphasized: that is, without a chronograph, what you will be measuring is slide velocity (if both the handload and the factory load throw the brass to the same location, then the slide velocity for each type of round is similar) and the recoil impulse (if both types of rounds feel the same) then those two characteristics of your handload might indicate a velocity similar to the factory round.

In fact, the velocity you may be getting from your reloaded round will probably not be similar to the factory round if you do measure it with a chronograph. (Some of us did similar workups for 38 & 357 ammunition in short-barrel revolvers, and what we settled for was what felt similar to the factory round, with no direct concern for velocity. We settled for calling these "replica reloads" and the actual ballistics, while similar, had no strong correlation to the factory ammo. A couple of us tested over a dozen different powders, etc.--and it sure was fun to do. BTW, we did stay inside of MAX recipe recommendations--although, for 38 Special we did use European (CIP) guidelines at the end.)

So, don't draw the conclusion that your homebuilt round is running at 1100+ fps--especially from a PF9 with its short barrel. Just focus on building a round that feels similar in recoil and / or throws the brass in a similar fashion.

Jim H.

Mike1234567
September 25, 2011, 07:04 PM
You'd better check with Kel-Tec to determine if the PF-9 can take those pressures.

MrWesson
September 25, 2011, 09:30 PM
You'd better check with Kel-Tec to determine if the PF-9 can take those pressures.


The PF9 is +P rated and I think 1140fps would be at the lower range of +p

Mike1234567
September 25, 2011, 09:39 PM
The PF9 is +P rated and I think 1140fps would be at the lower range of +p

Yes, but not for continuous use. Given this marginal "okay" by K-T I won't use +P in my P-11 at all. I value my fingers. :)

rcmodel
September 25, 2011, 09:41 PM
Velocity hasn't got much to do with +P pressure.

I can get higher velocity at standard pressure.
Or lower velocity at +P pressure.

It all comes down to powder selection.

rc

MrWesson
September 25, 2011, 10:02 PM
Faster powders create more pressure to achieve the same fps as slower powders..

That's why I used blue dot which I believe is one of the slowest.

Yes, but not for continuous use. Given this marginal "okay" by K-T I won't use +P in my P-11 at all. I value my fingers.


I'm pretty sure when they say not for continuous use they had practice with SD ammo in mind... I dont see myself putting more than 200 +p rounds total through my gun.. Ill keep my hand I promise.

ArchAngelCD
September 26, 2011, 01:36 AM
The PF-9 is a much better pistol than the P-11 and can handle any ammo that is within SAAMI specs, even +P ammo.

Like said above, when making replica ammo for practice you want to try and duplicate the feel of the original. That means the same type and amount of felt recoil. Even though many powders will give you the same velocity the felt recoil might not be right until you find the right powder.

When duplicating Speer short barrel .38 Special +P ammo and short barrel .357 Magnum ammo two different powders did it for me. The 38 was made with AA#5 and the 357 was made with Power Pistol to duplicate the feel of the recoil, not just the amount of recoil.

g29guy
September 27, 2011, 08:44 AM
Yes, but not for continuous use. Given this marginal "okay" by K-T I won't use +P in my P-11 at all. I value my fingers. :)

One shouldn't use a sd load that is more powerful than what the gun is intended.
You should practice what you intend on using, and if that means a slower ammo than so be it. I used to carry an old 38 j frame non +p. I didn't use +p ammo in it because at the time I need it I want it to function as it always has.
Ive since upgraded to a more powerful gun/cartridge.

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