45 ACP for black bear


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wisconsin
September 25, 2011, 05:37 PM
I'm going camping soon and taking my 45 with, what kind of load would you recommend for protection against black bear?

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rcmodel
September 25, 2011, 05:45 PM
230 grain FMJ-RN.

Deep penetration & the ability to break bones in a bear attack will do you more good then a rapid expansion HP generally recommended for SD & hunting.
And 230 grain FMJ-RN will give it.

But for actual protection against Smokey the campground bear?
I'd suggest an industrial size can of Bear Pepper Spray.

And put the samwichs & garbage someplace besides in your tent at night.
The further away & higher in a tree, the better..

Heres todays news about two rifle toting elk hunters attacked by a bear.
They used Bear Spray to run it off.
http://www.standard.net/stories/2011/09/24/idaho-elk-hunter-injured-bear-attack

rc

jeepnik
September 25, 2011, 05:47 PM
If you're wedded to the .45 acp, find a +p rated FMJFP (full metal jacket, flat point). But, once you find the desired round, please, please run a couple hundred through your handgun "before" you rely on it.

Ranger30-06
September 25, 2011, 05:48 PM
I would recommend something FMJ and +P. I would question the stopping power of a .45 ACP against black bears, however they are 99.99% of the time deterred by loud noises and groups of people. If brown bears come into the equation, you have an excuse to go out and buy at least a .44 Magnum. Best of luck and keep the food high off the ground! :)

wisconsin
September 25, 2011, 05:54 PM
thanks for the advice and quick responses. we should not encounter brown bear (northern WI), and due to being a poor college kid i am wedded to the 45. And we are bringing bear spray... you just never know though...

NWcityguy2
September 25, 2011, 06:03 PM
I think people over estimate the average size of black bears. If I were in your situation I would alternate 230 grain +P XTP's and some truncated cone 230 grain non-expanding slug, with a non-expanding slug in the tube.

I second the recommendation of bear spray. No one wants to needlessly kill an animal just because you cross paths, but with a non-lethal option you can be way more liberal in your use of it.

Ranger30-06
September 25, 2011, 06:07 PM
I think people over estimate the average size of black bears.

You've never seen a Jersey black bear, have you. Our black bears are the size of grizzlies because we cant hunt them. :what:

gofastman
September 25, 2011, 06:11 PM
Depending on what kind of gun you have:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=215

Mike1234567
September 25, 2011, 06:21 PM
If your pistol can handle +P then you might want to consider testing a few rounds of the following for function...

255gr Hard Cast LFN (http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214)

ETA: Link corrected!!

NWcityguy2
September 25, 2011, 06:23 PM
I've worked on Picatinny Arsenal, 100% in the outdoors. Seen about a dozen, not counting cubs of course :).

Zerodefect
September 25, 2011, 06:35 PM
Bear spray works better.

Keep in mind, if youre car camping, those bears are used to people. Just ignore them or chase them away. I used to camp in NH. They had a bunch of bears. You had to respect them, but they were harmless. One even unzipped my tent. Had one wander through my lot every other night. Just not a big deal. Sneaking up on one when your hiking 10m offroad is way worse. In a campground, no bear is going to be surprized by your being there.

FMJ +P is plenty. It'll work on small bears, it won't on a big one. Use it as a last resort. Youre better off de-escalating the situation. Don't pick a fight with a bear.

Ranger30-06
September 25, 2011, 06:39 PM
I've worked on Picatinny Arsenal, 100% in the outdoors. Seen about a dozen, not counting cubs of course :).

No no no, I should have specified. The center of south Jersey is where the bulk of them are. There isn't nearly as many black bears in the northern part of the state as there are in the southern half.

My job involves a lot of deliveries to the pine areas (Wharton State Forest), and that's where they really thrive. I talked to a forest ranger while I was out there once and he said they put several down that weighed in just under 700 lbs. Considering male grizzlies weigh between 500-800 lbs, that's a big black bear.

wisconsin
September 25, 2011, 06:46 PM
yeah, there's no way in hell i plan on taking one on deliberately. I'd just like a alternative if my none lethal option fails.
my gun is P+ rated so i think ill try the buffalo bore ammo sometime soon

Ranger30-06
September 25, 2011, 06:50 PM
Just curious, but what type of firearm are you using?

jerkface11
September 25, 2011, 06:52 PM
LOL in one thread there are people saying 9mm isn't good enough for deer. In this one people say .45auto is good enough for BEAR.

Mike1234567
September 25, 2011, 06:54 PM
LOL in one thread there are people saying 9mm isn't good enough for deer. In this one people say .45auto is good enough for BEAR.

I wasn't gonna open THAT can of worms but... :D

Ranger30-06
September 25, 2011, 06:54 PM
LOL in one thread there are people saying 9mm isn't good enough for deer. In this one people say .45auto is good enough for BEAR.

That's because no, 9mm is not good enough for deer, and .45 ACP will be just fine for black bear. Nothing more. :rolleyes:

Lucky Derby
September 25, 2011, 07:02 PM
If your pistol can handle +P then you might want to consider testing a few rounds of the following for function...

255gr Hard Cast LFN (http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=74)
.45 Auto Rim is a revolver round. It is for use in .45 ACP chambered revolvers so the shooter does not need to use moonclips to ensure extraction. This ammo will not work in any semi-auto .45 ACP

wisconsin
September 25, 2011, 07:03 PM
I'm using a 1911. and 9mm is more than enough for even grizzly if you use "xtreme fang face ammo" (sorry, had to toss in a mall ninja reference)

wisconsin
September 25, 2011, 07:06 PM
If it's a really big problem for you I'd strongly suggest you get a bigger caliber gun even if you have to sell the .45 to get it.

I dont see it as being a huge issue, we have never had many issues with bear up on our property. But it never hurts to be prepared

Mike1234567
September 25, 2011, 07:20 PM
.45 Auto Rim is a revolver round. It is for use in .45 ACP chambered revolvers so the shooter does not need to use moonclips to ensure extraction. This ammo will not work in any semi-auto .45 ACP

Woops!! Copied the wrong link. Darn these weak eyes. Corrected it and here it is again... .45 ACP 255gr Hard Cast LFN (http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214)

Zerodefect
September 25, 2011, 07:43 PM
Forgot to mention that a good flashlight will keep them at distance as well. Nobody likes haveing a Surefire E2D Led pointed at their eyeballs.

Azb
September 25, 2011, 07:48 PM
Black bear are not typically aggressive. Don't aggravate them, follow good camping policies, and have fun. Don't worry about black bear.

I've had many encounters with black bear, with several up close. One was trying to steal my pack and I smacked it on the butt with my walking stick to chase it away. He was pretty persistent, most of the time all you see is their rear end as they're running away from you. If they don't immediately run, say something to them, like "Hey bear, go away". That's usually all you need. As a last resort, just the report of your pistol should send them running.

I carry in the backcountry, but not for black bear. I'm far more worried about feral hogs and two legged varmints.

Brown and grizzly are a different story. For them, I suggest a rifle. And a scope. And enough distance that you have to use the scope.

Az

Ranger30-06
September 25, 2011, 07:49 PM
I dont see it as being a huge issue, we have never had many issues with bear up on our property. But it never hurts to be prepared

Black bears are easily intimidated and only attack if they are seriously hungry. I too wouldn't expect a problem.

Hossfly68
September 25, 2011, 07:51 PM
But should one open carry to show the bear that he is armed or concealed carry so that the bear doesn't know and isn't sure if he should attack or not? :evil:


I couldn't help riffin on a discussion in another thread. Forgive me.

Ranger30-06
September 25, 2011, 07:54 PM
But should one open carry to show the bear that he is armed or concealed carry so that the bear doesn't know and isn't sure if he should attack or not? :evil:


I couldn't help riffin on a discussion in another thread. Forgive me.

Be careful! He could take your gun, shoot you with it, then kill all those young cubs! You monster! :D

jon_in_wv
September 25, 2011, 07:57 PM
My woods load for my 1911 is a 200gr LFP at about 900+fps. I don't buy into the idea a clack bear, especially in this area, is bulletproof from anything less than a magnum. If there were some really bigger bears in the area I would feel better with the power of a magnum but that doesn't mean a 45acp won't do some serious damage with well placed rounds.

gofastman
September 25, 2011, 08:18 PM
Just remember any time you go up against a juggernaut, save one round... :D

wisconsin
September 25, 2011, 08:27 PM
maybe this is what i need :D

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/custom41-1.jpg

Kachok
September 25, 2011, 08:43 PM
OK yall let's not be silly about this, no the 9mm is not a deer hunting weapon and no the 45 ACP is not the ideal bear stopper. Is is better then nothing oh heck yeah, will it even approach the stopping power of a 44 or 454 no way. If you don't own a magnum handgun sure bring along the 45, just get some heavyweight hardcast bullets with +P power. Buffalo bore makes a pretty good load if you cannot roll your own.

wisconsin
September 25, 2011, 08:49 PM
any place you know of that i can get some buffalo bore for cheap? yes i have googled it, but sometimes people know about those little hidden gems

Ranger30-06
September 25, 2011, 08:57 PM
Cheaper than dirt usually has a decent price on that stuff but their in-stock supply is spotty. If they have it, great. If not, try MidwayUSA

toivo
September 25, 2011, 08:58 PM
Here in the Catskill Mountains, a black bear mauled and killed an infant at a summer camp in 2002. The responding officer shot and killed the bear with a .40. It was a small bear, though.

http://www.sc-democrat.com/archives/2002/news/08August/23/bear.html

AJumbo
September 25, 2011, 10:58 PM
"Wedded" to your .45, are you, Wisconsin? Maybe you could cheat on her with your buddy's 12 ga, just for the weekend.

Girodin
September 25, 2011, 11:04 PM
Black bears are one of the ways I'm trying to justify this as a new toy for myself http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm

Kachok
September 26, 2011, 11:05 AM
"Wedded" to your .45, are you, Wisconsin? Maybe you could cheat on her with your buddy's 12 ga, just for the weekend.
+1 a 12ga with hardend slugs is a really good choice. Large caliber heavy projectile that penatrates 4 foot of soft tissue, hard to argue with that.

Zerodefect
September 26, 2011, 11:13 AM
But should one open carry to show the bear that he is armed or concealed carry so that the bear doesn't know and isn't sure if he should attack or not? :evil:


I couldn't help riffin on a discussion in another thread. Forgive me.

The bear will just target the open carrier first.

Just walk behind your horse. Bears have no idea how many legs a horse has.

MCgunner
September 26, 2011, 11:29 AM
I have a 200 grain SWC I shoot in my .45, Lee tumble lube. I have a few rounds loaded up to about 500 ft lbs, +P I reckon, from the Speer manual. That's what I'd use in .45. Should be plenty. But, I have a few .357s and a .45 Colt Blackhawk I prefer for ourdoor guns.

ku4hx
September 26, 2011, 11:33 AM
Good info here:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/firearms_defense_bears.htm

MCgunner
September 26, 2011, 11:34 AM
He's talking griz. The subject is black bear. I guess some folks don't realize there are different bear species nor the difference in a 300 lb black and a 1200 lb griz. A lot of difference there, I'd say. I do like this statement, though, for all those that say a 12 gauge will kill anything in the world.

Despite the claims of those selling special shotgun (i.e. slug type) ammunition or special barrels to shoot slugs, the reality is that almost any heavy for caliber, high powered rifle bullet, particularly the premium bullets typically used for stopping big bears, has far more penetration than a 12 gauge shotgun slug.

Me, for griz/browns I want a rifle, not a shotgun. However, a handgun might be easier to deploy FAST. If I were real worred about it on Kodiak or something, I'd carry both.

Greg528iT
September 26, 2011, 11:56 AM
Plus 1 on the bear spray. You or you buddy would survive a dousing of bear spray, you won't the round to the chest. That poor guy last week didn't.

Ranger30-06
September 26, 2011, 12:22 PM
He's talking griz. The subject is black bear. I guess some folks don't realize there are different bear species nor the difference in a 300 lb black and a 1200 lb griz.

I think you have your facts pretty exaggerated there. Adult male grizzles only weigh between 500-800 lbs, but black bears weigh in between 300-550 lbs (the exception being the black bears here in Jersey). Kodiak bears can be 1200 lbs easily with some known to top the scales at 1400 lbs, but those are in a relatively select area of Alaska and there's a 0% chance you will run into one of them down here.

For a 400lb, curious, easily scared, non bulletproof animal, your .45 will be just fine provided you keep your food high.

Dueling1911s
September 26, 2011, 12:35 PM
i used to sell guns for a bass pro. when ever some one would ask for bear mace spray i'd pull out a smith and wesson 500 out of the case.

RinkRat
September 26, 2011, 11:56 PM
when ever i go into the wood lands for a stroll all I carry is a 22mag derringer ... but the trick is not to go alone :rolleyes:

so if you do encounter a bruin be it black or brown or blond ... just shoot your walking companion in the foot so you can run away faster then them and let them deal with the bear :neener:

Kachok
September 27, 2011, 01:55 AM
I am not a fan of bear spray, I saw a case on the Discovery channal the other day where a guy tried to spray an attacking bear and the wind blew it right back into his face making matters worse. No tornado force winds are going to blow your 45 slugs back at you :) Nothing says GTFO quite like a 454 Casull slinging 300gr slugs at 1600fps.

cacoltguy
September 27, 2011, 05:34 AM
No no no, I should have specified. The center of south Jersey is where the bulk of them are. There isn't nearly as many black bears in the northern part of the state as there are in the southern half.

Actually, the bulk of New Jersey's Bear population lies in the northwestern corner of the state. The biggest ones live in that area as well. I grew up in North Jersey and my parents live there now (Warren County) and sightings are quite the norm. (I've seen them at Picatinny arsenal too NWCityguy lol) While I'm sure South Jersey has a bear population, I never saw any during the two years I lived there. Not much for them to eat down in the scrub pine areas and I'm sure it limits their size just like it does white tail deer.

Interesting Jersey Bear article:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/03/scientists_say_black_bear_popu.html

Kiln
September 27, 2011, 06:10 AM
I recommend a blank firing gun. It'll make a loud noise, a bright flash, and have the same result as most handgun rounds on a bear...it'll either scare the bear away or get you mauled brutally.

Ranger30-06
September 27, 2011, 08:40 AM
I too am against the bear spray idea. The idea that the bear has to be within 20 feet of you to be effective doesn't sit well in my mind, as well as the wind issue. If I was going that route, I would just take a 12 gauge with slugs and bean bag ammo on the side.

Actually, the bulk of New Jersey's Bear population lies in the northwestern corner of the state. The biggest ones live in that area as well. I grew up in North Jersey and my parents live there now (Warren County) and sightings are quite the norm. (I've seen them at Picatinny arsenal too NWCityguy lol) While I'm sure South Jersey has a bear population, I never saw any during the two years I lived there. Not much for them to eat down in the scrub pine areas and I'm sure it limits their size just like it does white tail deer.

Interesting Jersey Bear article:
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/03/scientists_say_black_bear_popu.html

Well I won't debate the article, but I was basing my facts off of a bear concentration chart that for some time now. Looking at the chart, yes black bears were more prominent in North Jersey in 1995, but the distribution chart says that they are definitely moving south. No food? Try acres and acres of cranberry bog, blueberry fields, strawberry fields, and corn/wheat fields on the more western part of the state. There's definitely enough food for them to steal.

Please note! The chart I am providing shows distribution, not concentration! :)

easher1968
September 27, 2011, 10:42 AM
If you have a 1911, get a .460 rowland conversion kit and you will get .44 mag power out of your .45acp

MCgunner
September 27, 2011, 10:51 AM
I think you have your facts pretty exaggerated there. Adult male grizzles only weigh between 500-800 lbs,

Kodiak bears can be 1200 lbs easily with some known to top the scales at 1400 lbs, but those are in a relatively select area of Alaska and there's a 0% chance you will run into one of them down here.

Kodiak ARE grizzly. Same species. And Kodiak get way over 800 lbs and take a LOT of stopping compared to a black bear which can easily be killed one shot with a good .357 magnum load or anything that'll take a deer.

You missed my point. My point, someone brings up blacks and three posts later, someone is yakkin' you need a .600 nitro express to kill a bear cause nothing lesser will do and file the front sight off the gun cause when the bear shoves it up you butt, it won't hurt so bad and save the last round for yourself and all the other dumb cliches. They don't know the difference in an Alaskan griz and a black bear. They shouldn't be commenting if they don't know what bears are.

Ranger30-06
September 27, 2011, 11:44 AM
Kodiak ARE grizzly. Same species. And Kodiak get way over 800 lbs and take a LOT of stopping compared to a black bear which can easily be killed one shot with a good .357 magnum load or anything that'll take a deer.

You missed my point. My point, someone brings up blacks and three posts later, someone is yakkin' you need a .600 nitro express to kill a bear cause nothing lesser will do and file the front sight off the gun cause when the bear shoves it up you butt, it won't hurt so bad and save the last round for yourself and all the other dumb cliches. They don't know the difference in an Alaskan griz and a black bear. They shouldn't be commenting if they don't know what bears are.

Yes they are both brown bears, but there are differences. I agree with the .357 for black bear, and also that there is a huge difference between the two types of bears.

ALL THE GUY WANTED TO KNOW IS IF HIS .45ACP WILL BE FINE FOR A GENERAL BLACK BEAR. I SAID YES BECAUSE 99% OF THE TIME, IT WILL. They aren't bulletproof or even that big to begin with, except in my rare case of NJ.

Problem answered! :D

Foto Joe
September 27, 2011, 02:33 PM
Given the fact that I live in Grizzly territory it makes me cringe when I see or hear of somebody who carries a handgun as protection against bears. Bear Spray should be your first line of defense when you are not at the top of the food chain. The gun may give you that warm fuzzy feeling but a wounded bear is going to put up a fight to the death. Wanna make any bets whose death he is counting on?

Bear Spray and buy a new one every year, you don't want to risk it not working when your life or your families life depends on it.

smitty704
September 27, 2011, 02:39 PM
I would look at this as an opportunity(excuse) to go buy a .44 mag. Again, I'm sure the .45 would be plenty capable, but hey, why not go all out. Lol :)

Mike1234567
September 27, 2011, 02:46 PM
If you have a 1911, get a .460 rowland conversion kit and you will get .44 mag power out of your .45acp
I would seriously consider easher's suggestion. The kits aren't cheap and neither is the ammo but it sure seems like a good option. In fact, I'm thinking of replacing my .44 Mag with a converted 1911.

cacoltguy
September 27, 2011, 03:44 PM
Looking at the chart, yes black bears were more prominent in North Jersey in 1995,

Ranger, according to your chart, bears were more prominent in North Jersey in 1995 and still way more prominent in 2009. All the chart shows is that a some of them have made their way south during the last 10 years. It also shows that almost all of South Jersey was bear free until 10 years ago and, as of 2009, a large portion of the area still has no black bears. The highest concentration and total number of bears is in the north by quite a large margin. Sandy pine forest really don't have the food supply of the north/ northwest which also has quite a bit of farmland and diverse food supply as well as a much more suitable natural habitat for them.

wisconsin
September 27, 2011, 05:02 PM
ALL THE GUY WANTED TO KNOW IS IF HIS .45ACP WILL BE FINE FOR A GENERAL BLACK BEAR. I SAID YES BECAUSE 99% OF THE TIME, IT WILL. They aren't bulletproof or even that big to begin with

^this, over and over again

NWcityguy2
September 27, 2011, 06:57 PM
You will find that internet gun forums are a breeding ground for "off topic worst case-ism"

Mike1234567
September 27, 2011, 09:10 PM
*deleted*

ExTank
September 27, 2011, 09:55 PM
My job involves a lot of deliveries to the pine areas (Wharton State Forest),...

Ranger, if you happen to run across Paulie Walnut's Cadillac, keep an eye out for an angry Russian.

CraigC
September 28, 2011, 10:40 AM
Black bears are not brown bears. They're not built like `em, they don't act like `em. The .45ACP with a proper bullet would sufficient for black bear. No need for 300gr+ monster masher loads. Though I'd rather use something other than FMJ, which is abysmal on flesh.

Ben86
September 28, 2011, 11:22 AM
.500 S&W Magnum: Accept no substitutes. :D

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1139104885010&id=73d55547925b2c25409849ac92925173&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.lockstockandbarrel.com%2fuplimg%2fauction_img_511616.jpg

Generally black bear aren't all that much harder to kill than a deer with proper shot placement. I'd still rather a shotgun or high powered rifle, but I wouldn't feel unarmed with a .45 either. The few I've seen around my house are smaller than my great Pyrenees doggy. I'm sure size varies from place to place, so you have to be the judge. If you really want a relevant opinion ask a local wildlife ranger.

You'd be better using bear spray first though. It has been shown to be generally more effective and gives you less legal problems. Still carry the .45 just in case though.

MCgunner
September 28, 2011, 11:42 AM
I would seriously consider easher's suggestion. The kits aren't cheap and neither is the ammo but it sure seems like a good option. In fact, I'm thinking of replacing my .44 Mag with a converted 1911.

I'd keep the .44, more accurate, I have no doubt. I don't like autos as outdoor guns, especially 1911s which if made accurate are often touchy in function because they have to be so tight, which was not in the design parameters originally. There is one exception in my collection, a Ruger P90 which is 1.5" at 25 yards accurate with MOST loads under 2" and 100 percent functional. I'd carry it in place of my .357s and .45 Colt with no qualms in black bear country, and have.

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