10mm Question?


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BIGBANG
September 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
ok, this isn't a is 10mm really all that thread. It's a real question because I'm very seriously considering a pistol in this caliber, and I want to know.

Do any agencies in America or other parts of the world for that matter still use this as their service caliber?

I mean when looking at its' ballistics and seeing it being comparable to .357 magnum which was carried by police for years why not? If 125 gr. .357 magnum load was supposed to be the best ever man stopper why not carry 15 rounds with a bigger diameter bullet with the same velocities? And I don't by the recoil thing because if police carried .357 magnums then would 10mm really recoil more than a .357? I've shot full power .357 loads and I am more accurate and I prefer the recoil to that of my brothers glock 22 in .40. The snap annoys me and I don't shoot it accurately. so why don't more agencies especially smaller ones where they have to supply their own gun go to 10mm?

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Telekinesis
September 26, 2011, 02:35 AM
I don't believe any agencies still issue 10mm as a service caliber. While I would love to get a Glock 20, I unfortunately have to wait until I can afford the ammo or the ability to reload for it (reloading is generally frowned upon while living in dorms on campus :mad:)

As far as the reasons that the 10mm isn't issued, it is size/length of the round and (I know you're not going to like this but...) the recoil. The size of the round requires that a larger frame/mag be used (about the size of a similar gun chambered for .45 ACP IIRC) and is a bit big for some officers, especially a double stack which is likely to be a department-imposed design requirement. Fit is pretty important in handguns, and I know I wouldn't want to be forced into a gun that was physically too large for my hands. Not saying the 10mm framed guns are giants, just that they're bigger than the 9mm/.40 frames.

And to recoil...
I'm sure the recoil would be fine for most people if they were shooting a large (read: heavy) revolver chambered in 10mm, but the problem is that they'd be shooing a round with comparable power to a .357 in a gun that weighs much less. Felt recoil has almost as much to do with the characteristics of the gun firing the round as it does with the round itself. As you said, you don't like firing a glock in .40 because of the recoil characteristics, now let's add more powder AND a heavier bullet and see if you opinion improves. See where this is going?

The comparison between the two glocks isn't just for the sake of argument. Glock was one of the first pistol manufacturers to really get a good, reliable semi auto to work long term with the 10mm cartridge. IIRC, most semis that were using the 10mm at the time had problems with excessive wear. So a department choosing between 10mm and another cartridge would very likely be choosing between the Glok 20 and another handgun.

All of this just goes to show why the 10mm isn't issued by a federal or state police agency. Personally I like the 10mm and would buy one in a heartbeat if I could afford to shoot it as much as I'd want to. It is a great cartridge, its just not cut out for mass-issue.

303tom
September 26, 2011, 02:45 AM
Yep they all do, that`s all a .40 is a de-powered 10mm !

Loosedhorse
September 26, 2011, 09:54 AM
The FBI still has some MP5/10s; other than that, I know of no agency.

303tom has a good point. If you're looking at the 10 as solely an SD-against-human-attacker gun, it has very little over the .40. If you're looking at it as a possible hunting/woods protection gun, it does have advantages.

Or if you're interested in "non-conventional" SD rounds (rounds which have a big energy dump and/or fragment), the 10 offers possibilities there.If 125 gr. .357 magnum load was supposed to be the best ever man stopper why not carry 15 rounds with a bigger diameter bullet with the same velocities?You may want to look at the .40 offerings in 155, 135 and 125 gr before deciding you need a 10. Also, consider .357 SIG.

Yes, I own a 10 and prefer it...but there are reasonable alternatives to consider.

ATLDave
September 26, 2011, 10:25 AM
Yes, there are police agencies that use 10mm. Among others, I'm told that the Danish national police force on Greenland have 10mm's because they have to deal with the threat of polar bears!

There are 10mm sub-fora on arfcom and glocktalk, which would be a good place to get more detailed answers.

As for the utility of the round, I find it enjoyable to shoot. It definitely thumps reasonably hard in recoil, but it's hardly unmanageable. Even my wife enjoys shooting our full-size, steel-framed 10mm handgun. Many of the loads you find retail are basically .40 loads, but the cartridge gives you some significant additional space at the top of the spectrum. If you want lower recoil, find loads that track .40. If you want more velocity, or more weight without sacrificing velocity, you can get it.

To me, the only real downside is the relatively high price of the ammo. There's no cheap surplus or LE-reject stuff floating around, like there can be with the mainline "service calibers."

Is it overkill for a 2-legged threat? Probably. But I'd say the same thing about anything past a 9mm JHP, and that doesn't stop a good many shooters from wanting to carry (or agencies from issuing) .40, .45, .357 sig, etc. It is somewhat reassuring to know that, if the 10mm you're using isn't enough, it probably wasn't a handgun-grade problem to begin with!

Remllez
September 26, 2011, 10:55 AM
I think most of the problem with the 10 was recoil/follow up shooting as well as grip size. If you can afford to shoot a 10 then I say go for it! The Glock 20 is a very good choice and will put a hurt on whatever you shoot with it. Like you said the ballistics are hard to argue with but hand loading is much preferred to the neutered ammo company choices available at your LGS.

Ankeny
September 26, 2011, 10:59 AM
I have had three 10's. A Smith revolver, a Colt Delta Elite, and a Glock 20. They are very difficult to shoot well (as in fast and accurately) with full power loads. If possible, shoot one before you buy.

loadedround
September 26, 2011, 11:25 AM
I have to jump into this discussion since I was fortunate enough to purchase one of the first Colt Delta Elites(10mm) that were available in my area. I have put several thousands of rounds through it since the mid 1980's and would consider it my favorite semi auto. When I bought this pistol there was little reloading data available, no new brass, bullets, or loading dies. I fired many boxes of Hornady factory loads at 12.00 for a pk/20 to collect brass. In my opinion the 10mm kicks any harder than 45 ACP hard ball ammo. Most of my reloads are with hard cast bullets loaded at medium velocity for practice and plinking and JHP's for business use. The 10mm round is a handloader's dream and you can load it down to equal a 40 S&W or up to approaching the 41 Mag. I just recently bought another Delta Elite in SS but have not yet had a chance to shoot it. BTW, I have never had a bit of trouble with my Colt Delta Elite, but I do change the recoil springs every 500 to 600 rounds.

Dueling1911s
September 26, 2011, 01:20 PM
great trail gun caliber. i have a delta elite myself, had a glock 20 back in college

only way to afford the ammo is to reload. a box of fmjs go about 30 bucks a box when the stars align. i can reload them for about 8.50 a box.

Kachok
September 26, 2011, 01:26 PM
I would absolutly love to have a 10mm high cap handgun, I am not recoil shy and I handload, unfortunetly I have small hands so I will probably never find one that fits me well.

montgomery381
September 26, 2011, 02:05 PM
I have a commission with a small rural county sheriff's office. When deputies could choose what weapon to carry most carried something chambered in a .40 or 9mm. I think that was because that was just what was common. For the ones that were more into guns wanted more power 1911's were what you saw. And to them, for an auto, the 45 is the man stopper. The 10mm is definitely the best for stopping power. I would say agencies don't issue it because: 1) the ammo is more expnensive, 2) the frame of the guns chambered in them are larger. 3) there is a difference in recoil. When .357 were commonly issued there were not near as many women LEO's so the recoil wasn't as much of an issue. Also the recoil of a .357 seems like less because they were fired out of a lot heavier gun. As for the size of the frame I have heard a lot of women and some guys complain about the size of the Glock 22 grip. It would be hard for women and some guys to grip the large Glock 20. But in the end I would say cost and maybe a fear of liability keep agencies from using it. And for those officers in small agencies who provide their own they probably aren't getting paid much so again cost probably is a factor.

That was a lot of typing for such a short answer.

Loosedhorse
September 26, 2011, 02:33 PM
unfortunetly I have small hands so I will probably never find one that fits me well. The Delta Elite has the slimmest grip; if a standard 1911 frame works for you, I think you'd be fine with a Delta (despite the price!)

(If a 1911 doesn't fit you, I don't think the Smith frame will be better).

Kachok
September 26, 2011, 03:06 PM
Love 1911s, hate the single stack mags. At the range I would take a 1911 over anything but when it all hits the fan give me my 16 rounds of 40 S&W anyday. Besides I don't like exposed hammers on CCW if there were ever a time for them to get caught on something that would be the time for it. I heard they re-designed the Glocks grip, mabey I will check out the new 20 to see if it fits, but I am not holding my breath on it.

Loosedhorse
September 26, 2011, 03:16 PM
Understood. I don't have any experience with the newer Glock frames.

I've heard of folks doing a simple barrel and spring swap on ParaOrdnance 16.40s to get a "16.10"--but I've also hear that ParaOrdnance is pretty hit or miss these days.

Kachok
September 26, 2011, 03:25 PM
What is the deal with Para and Kimber? They used to be benchmark weapons, now all I hear is complaining about them, my hunting buddy just bought a $1100 Kimber and it broke on the first trip to the range. In the rifle world Remington has gone downhill HARD. It is getting difficult to trust the premium brands nowadays. If I were to buy a 1911 now I would only trust Springfield or Colt.

ATLDave
September 26, 2011, 03:31 PM
EAA/Tanfoglio also offers most of their pistols in 10mm. I got the Elite Match in 10mm and it has been a great gun (about 1000 rounds through it). ~15 round capacity (14 in some, 16 or 17 if you get an aftermarket extended aluminum butt plate). Mine's a SAO, but you can get DA/SA if you prefer. Fits my hand great. (I take a men's M or ML cadet size glove for golf if that helps re: hand size.)

bomberbill357
September 26, 2011, 03:49 PM
I've got a S&W 1026 for sale cheap on Gunbroker. Just couldn't afford to feed it. By the way I have medium to small hands and don't have a problem shooting anything. It's all in the grip strength

Kachok
September 26, 2011, 05:21 PM
I don't have an issue holding larger grip guns, but I perfer something that fits my hand, I think anyone would. The 10mm is an overkill for stopping power, but I like overkill lots of it if I can get it. I hardly notice the kick of 40s and 45s so I highly doubt I would have any issue shooting a 10mm. I could in theory do just fine with my 9mm, I am an exceptional shot with a pistol, I qualified with a perfect score when in Texas State LE, but having a little extra umph never hurts.

harrygunner
September 26, 2011, 05:45 PM
The max OAL of the 10mm is the same as the .45ACP. So grips on 10mm guns need not be larger than those of .45 ACP handguns.

Recoil is subjective and I find stout 10mm to be about the same as .45ACP +P.

To the OP, I copied an old (2005) list of LE agencies that may have used 10mm handguns. If I get the OK from THR, I'll list them.

surjimmy
September 27, 2011, 12:48 AM
Can't say enough good about the 10mm. This is my Delta Elite Custom by Chuck Warner. It is my main carry.http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa250/surjimmy/IMG_1959.jpg

Bobson
September 27, 2011, 01:43 AM
Nice piece, Jimmy.

Also, not to ninja this thread, but I'm confused by this:
If you're looking at the 10 as solely an SD-against-human-attacker gun, it has very little over the .40. If you're looking at it as a possible hunting/woods protection gun, it does have advantages.
It just seems to contradict itself. How can 10mm be advantageous over .40S&W against 4-legged predators, but the two be roughly equal against 2-legged predators? Doesn't just about everyone swear by the old adage, carry the most powerful gun you're proficient with?

pisc1024
September 27, 2011, 02:45 AM
ok, this isn't a is 10mm really all that thread. It's a real question because I'm very seriously considering a pistol in this caliber, and I want to know.

Do any agencies in America or other parts of the world for that matter still use this as their service caliber?

I mean when looking at its' ballistics and seeing it being comparable to .357 magnum which was carried by police for years why not? If 125 gr. .357 magnum load was supposed to be the best ever man stopper why not carry 15 rounds with a bigger diameter bullet with the same velocities? And I don't by the recoil thing because if police carried .357 magnums then would 10mm really recoil more than a .357? I've shot full power .357 loads and I am more accurate and I prefer the recoil to that of my brothers glock 22 in .40. The snap annoys me and I don't shoot it accurately. so why don't more agencies especially smaller ones where they have to supply their own gun go to 10mm?

The 10 is a very capable round, it provides you with a lot of options for loading. The fact is though, that there is only one bullet designed for the 10mm velocities the Hornady 200 gr. All other loadings are bullets designed for the .40 cal. When you push bullets beyond their design parameters bad things tend to happen. I own a 10mm and like it a lot, however it is just a gun that I enjoy taking out and shooting or letting friends shoot it for fun nothing more. Just my .02

harrygunner
September 27, 2011, 06:31 AM
Gary Napolitano hosted a list of LE agencies that used 10mm handguns on http://www.guitarsalon.biz/10mm But that site is no longer up. I happened to have saved that web page.

Caveat, the page was dated 2005.

Albuquerque N.M.P.D.
Aleppo Township Pennsylvania P.D.
Anniston, Alabama P.D.
Stevenson, Alabama P.D.
Alpena County Sheriff's Dept, Michigan
Baytown P.D. Texas
Bellingham PD Bellingham Wa.
Billings Montana Sheriff's Office
Billings Montana Police Department
Brick Township New Jersey
Buffalo Minnesota P.D.
Clay County S.O. Florida
Colorado State Patrol
Falkville Alabama
FBI
Immediate Reaction Special Group SWAT Mexico City
Kentucky State Police
Kentucky Dept. of Probation and Parole
Kalispell, Montana P.D.
Lander Wyoming
Loveland Colorodo P.D.
Maricopa County Sherrifs Office
New Castle P.D
Normandy Missouri P.D.
Pawnee County, Oklahoma Sheriffs Office
Pocatello, Idaho P.D.
Pueblo P.D. Pueblo Colorado
Raleigh N.C.P.D.
Sonoma County Sheriff's Department
Spokane County Sheriff Washington State
St. Bernard P.D. St. Bernard, Ohio
St. John Indiana P.D.
U.S Customs Service
U.S Marshals
Weimar Texas P.D

harrygunner
September 27, 2011, 06:47 AM
Hornady's 180gr XTP .400 bullet also fits in the range of 10mm speeds. They rate that bullet for speeds within 700 - 1500 ft/s.

I carry a Commander length 1911 in 10mm. I wanted to take advantage of its performance. It's comparable to a .357 Mag from a 4" revolver.

I constantly see self-contradictory statements on Internet that go something like: 'A .357 Mag is a great self defense round but the 10mm is best for hunting.' I believe the 10mm is good for every situation a .357 Mag is good for. But, the 10 comes with platforms that are easier to shoot and hold more ammo.

Loosedhorse
September 27, 2011, 08:15 AM
When you push bullets beyond their design parameters bad things tend to happen.Like what? Fragmentation on striking target is not necessarily undesirable. Jacket rips before getting to target would be, but I haven't heard of that outside of over-spun .223s. And neither sounds very likely with, for example, an FMJ bullet.

If nothing else, there is the Tac-XP family: 155, 140, and 125--as these are all-copper: hard to imagine what the "bad thing" will be when these are used as intended.

And perusing the manufacturer's websites, most bullets seem to be labeled .40/10. I guess the manufacturer's could be lying about their bullets being suitable for 10mm, which is what you seem to imply.

radkoch
September 27, 2011, 09:23 AM
I pretty much reload my own 10mm as they are expensive to feed.I mostly use new Starline brass but do reload some once fired brass from time to time. The drawback as stated below is some people will load their 10mm hot.

As stated earlier in this thread the case is longer so it is my understanding some of the agencies didn't use it as an issue round due to some of the users hand being a little smaller.

I guess this is the reason Glock 20 and 21 frames/mags are pretty much the same size and not really interchangeable like say the 17 and 22 size frame.

As for recoil I haven't noticed a whole lot between 10mm and 45. There are some who will load their 10mm to max pressure and I'm sure you will notice that after a few rounds. I have heard the comparison of 10mm to 41 magnum hence I think that may be why some are issued and/or carried in bear country. I myself haven't seen too many bear here in Texas but I do carry mine just in case. LOL

scramasax
September 27, 2011, 09:51 AM
Kachok, I don't have a problem with 1911 frame guns but all of mine have a flat mainspring housing and slim grips. They just fit my hand better. You really should get a Tangfoglio in your hand BIL has one and it fits your hand much better with hc mags.

Cheers,

ts

Mainsail
September 27, 2011, 11:25 AM
The short frame glocks (SF suffix) feel much better in the hand for most people.

http://www.topohiker.com/2Gs.png

BIGBANG
September 27, 2011, 02:36 PM
ok guys, sorry it took me so long to get back, I works non stop on the weekends, here's my reasoning for getting a 10mm and why I think it should be more prevalent. I just got into reloading. Mostly .38/.357 and .45, I've hossed em' on up in both rounds and I find that I love the recoil. I feel like I'm shooting something with authority and I know when I hit it's gonna hurt em' Whether it be hogs or humans. If I get a 10mm I will shoot hotter loads and probably carry hotter loads as well, I shoot +p .45s cause that's what I carry and I can hit the 10 ring all day long double tapping or firing as fast as I can. so 10mm shouldn't be a problem on the recoil side of things.

another point is I really wish there was more factory ammo for it, thats ok I'll make my own loads, but is there any hot factory ammo out there for self defense or would I have to load that myself to? I'm not opposed to loading my defensive ammo, I do for my .357, 180gr. xtp. That said would I be better off getting a glock 29 or 20? how does the smaller frame handle with recoil? the reason I ask is because I carry full sized guns now and I know the recoil has to be different with smaller guns.

ATLDave
September 27, 2011, 02:39 PM
Corbon, Double-Tap, and Buffalo Bore all make some pretty crackin' SD loads, IIRC. Most of the Hornady stuff, OTOH, seems to basically be .40 loads in a longer case. At least that was my sense.

I'm not a Glock guy, but I have shot a friend's Glock 20 and 29. I found the recoil to be very managable in both, though more than in my steel-framed 10mm. But if you're used to carrying full size guns, why give up the control?

7075-T7
September 27, 2011, 03:09 PM
I've carried a G29 for a year or so now and I do like it, it conceals well under a t-short or outer shirt, recoil is full, but no where near uncomfortable.

Ammo sourcing is a problem, cabelas usually carries the Remington UMC, which I like, for $24-30 a box. But, you can't go down the street and get target 10mm loads all that often.

pisc1024
September 27, 2011, 03:58 PM
Like what? Fragmentation on striking target is not necessarily undesirable. Jacket rips before getting to target would be, but I haven't heard of that outside of over-spun .223s. And neither sounds very likely with, for example, an FMJ bullet.

If nothing else, there is the Tac-XP family: 155, 140, and 125--as these are all-copper: hard to imagine what the "bad thing" will be when these are used as intended.

And perusing the manufacturer's websites, most bullets seem to be labeled .40/10. I guess the manufacturer's could be lying about their bullets being suitable for 10mm, which is what you seem to imply.

Well fragmentation in handgun rounds is indeed a bad thing. Fragmenting is a bad thing especially when you may be encountering intermediate barriers. These barriers can be anything from dry wall to a car windshield. If you think about it barriers are likely scenario in a SD situation weather you are a civilian or LEO. Your example of an FMJ is a moot point, naturally a non expanding bullet will perform pretty much the same no matter what. That was not my point.
As for your perusal of the manufacturers web sites and their statements about the .40 and 10mm bullets being interchangeable, yes they are in so much as they are the same diameter. However with that, a bullet DESIGNED to be pushed to say 1000 fps and function properly, as in a .40 cal, will not usually perform as well if pushed to 1250 or 1300. It's just that simple. You can't have something for nothing. I am not saying that the manufacturers’ are lying, they are telling the truth, however it is not the whole truth. Can .40 cal bullets be used in a 10mm? Yes. Will the perform adequately? I don't truly know in all cases. Some may, but most will not.

jibbs
September 27, 2011, 04:06 PM
I would agree that Double-Tap and Buffalo Bore are probably your best choices for hot loads in the 10mm, but there is another one out there that is off the radar.

Elite Ammunition, has a few 10mm loadings that I believe are supposed to be the "hottest" out there. They are loaded above SAMMI specs on the other hand and I believe need a stiffer spring in order to function properly (not 100% on that).

http://www.eliteammunition.net/other_ammunition.html

I go through this company to get non-watered down 5.7x25 ammo and haven't been disappointed with them in that respect. I do own their 10mm rounds but haven't shot any as my gun is still being made. Just letting you guys know of more options out there as they are not that popular, they specialize in less available calibers.

Loosedhorse
September 27, 2011, 04:09 PM
Fragmenting is a bad thing especially when you may be encountering intermediate barriers. These barriers can be anything from dry wall to a car windshield.Well, the rounds I mentioned tend to fragment in tissue simulant (and, presumably, tissue). When they encounter other obstacles, they tend to get their HP cavity plugged and act like FMJ.

The fact that rounds fragment in tissue simulant does not mean that they behave the same way when encountering "anything from dry wall to a car windshield."

(BTW: I am not sure exactly when I would want a SD round to penetrate dry-wall or a car windshield. Anything could happen, for sure. But the likelihood of me shooting through a windshield, or shooting through opaque drywall--Rule 4 violation--seems small compared to that of a professional LE force that routinely does felony vehicle stops, for example. After all, windshield penetration was a big reason that Dirty Harry peferred the .44 Magnum! But I might consider that type of penetration lower down on my list of ammo requirements. YMMV.)

pisc1024
September 27, 2011, 04:12 PM
(BTW: I am not sure exactly when I would want a SD round to penetrate dry-wall or a car windshield. Anything could happen, for sure. But the likelihood of me shooting through a windshield, or shooting through opaque drywall--Rule 4 violation--seems small compared to that of a professional LE force that rotinely does felony vehicle stops, for example.)

I don't know what rule 4 is, but it doesn’t sound like something I would want to bet my ass on. Just putting that out there... I guess if you have every scenario gamed out in your head that involves you having to use deadly force, then you are a much better man than I.

Loosedhorse
September 27, 2011, 04:17 PM
I don't know what rule 4 is,'Nuff said.

ATLDave
September 27, 2011, 04:20 PM
I'm with you, Loosedhorse. Cops have to be prepared to shoot a guy driving a car. That's really, really unlikely to happen to me. I'm much more likely to need/want an intermediate barrier to stop a round that missed. In the end, if there's a solid object between me and another person, I probably shouldn't be shooting at that person anyway.

2zulu1
September 27, 2011, 05:42 PM
I kind of have a love/hate relationship with the G20 and G20 SF that I have. Both Glocks have aftermarket Lonewolf barrels (also a 6" KKM tube) as a result of a seriously bulged Winchester casing that had been fired in a factory (unsupported) Glock barrel.

It's fun caliber to shoot, but my trigger finger gets pinched and I'm good for about 70 rounds at the range shooting handloads. IMR 800X and Longshot powders (to name a few) can put the Glock 20s into .44mag recoil numbers and those powders can over stress .40 S&W designed bullets at true 10mm velocities.

Here's the results of some testing that I've done comparing some 10mm loads/ammunition to both the .40 and .45auto calibers;

(***where Vcav equals the lower velocity limit of the cavitation regime, Mw equals the predicted mass of the tissue within the wound cavity and Xcm equals the predicted penetration in soft tissue/calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin)

Federal .40S&W 165 gr. HST JHP (P40HST3) v. four layers of denim
Vi = 1130 feet per second
Mr = 165.3 grains
Dr = 0.643 inch (1.61x cal)

Vcav = 397.316 feet per second
Mw = 50.993 grams (1.799 ounce)
Xcm = 33.807 centimeters (13.310 inches)


.40 S&W 165 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP v. 4 layers of denim

Vi = 1127 feet per second
Dr = 0.648 inch (1.62x cal)
Mr= 164.4 grains

Vc = 120.821 meters per second (396.394 feet per second)
Mw = 47.916 grams (1.690 ounces)
Xcm = 37.139 centimeters (14.622 inches)

Winchester .40S&W 180 gr. PDX1 JHP
Impact velocity: 1080 fps (466 fpe)
Recovered weight: 180 gr.
Average recovered diameter: 0.609"

Vcav = 405.563 fps
Mw = 52.229 grams (1.842 ounces)
Xcm = 39.008 cm (15.357 inches)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Speer 10mm 155 gr. "Gold Dot" JHP
Impact Velocity: 1420 fps/694fpe
Retained Weight: 132.9 grains (85.74%)

Vc: 371.823 fps
Mw: 45.820 gm (1.616 oz)
Xcm: 21.761 cm (8.567 in)

Hornady 10mm 155 gr. "XTP" JHP
Impact Velocity: 1570 fps
Retained Weight: 117.0 grains (75.48%)

Vc: 395.895 fps
Mw: 41.177 gm (1.453 oz)
Xcm: 27.855 cm (10.996 in)

Winchester 10mm 175 gr. Silver Tip JHP
Impact Velocity: 1389 fps
Retained Weight: 150.1 grains (85.77%)

Vc: 384.815 fps
Mw: 50.533 gm (1.783 oz)
Xcm: 28.210 cm (11.106 in)

10mm Nosler 180 gr. JHP v. 4 layers of denim

Vi = 1264 feet per second
Dr = 0.720 inch
Mr= 178.8 grains

Vc = 117.062 meters per second (384.060 feet per second)
Mw = 59.336 grams (2.093 ounces)
Xcm = 31.739 centimeters (12.496 inches)

10mm 180 gr. Remington Golden Sabre JHP
Impact velocity: 1243 fps/618fpe
Average recovered diameter: 0.698"

Vcav = 389.302 fps
Mw = 58.906 grams (2.078 ounces)
Xcm = 33.361 cm (13.134 inches)

Speer 10mm 180 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Impact velocity: 1296 fps
Recovered weight: 118.7 gr. (65.9%)
Average recovered diameter: 0.565" (1.41x cal)

Vcav = 414.791 fps
Mw = 37.459 grams (1.321 ounces)
Xcm = 33.350 cm (13.130 inches)

10mm 180 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP v. 4 layers of denim

Vi = 1267 feet per second
Dr = 0.614 inch
Mr= 178.3 grains

Vc = 122.790 meters per second (402.855 feet per second)
Mw = 58.041 grams (2.047 ounces)
Xcm = 40.939 centimeters (16.118 inches)


Hornady 10mm 180 gr. XTP JHP
Impact velocity: 1294 fps
Recovered weight: 144.7 gr. (80.4%)
Average recovered diameter: 0.623"

Vcav = 397.071 fps
Mw = 46.494 grams (1.640 ounces)
Xcm = 33.940 cm (13.362 inches)

10mm Hornady 180 gr. XTP JHP v. 4 layers of denim

Vi = 1265 feet per second
Dr = 0.631 inch
Mr= 180.0 grains

Vc = 121.788 meters per second (399.568 feet per second)
Mw = 58.756 grams (2.073 ounces)
Xcm = 39.451 centimeters (15.532 inches)

For hunting purposes, the 180gr XTP can be loaded >1300fps given hunting's longer distances. However, if loading for personal defense distances, mid 1200s should be the handloaders goal. There are hunters who have used this bullet to harvest elk.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

WinchesterUSA .45ACP 230 gr. JHP (USA45JHP)
Muzzle Velocity: 870 feet per second
Impact Velocity: 865 feet per second
Kinetic Energy = 517.998 Joules

Recovered Projectile Data:
Average Expanded Diameter: 0.735 inch
Retained Weight: 229.2 grains (99.65%)
Shape Aspect: symmetric, concave expansion face
Total Length: 0.421 inch

MacPherson Penetration Model Analysis:

Vc = 381.666 feet per second
Mw = 62.264 grams (2.196 ounces)
Xcm = 31.913 cm (12.564 inches)

.45ACP Winchester Bonded PDX1 230 gr. JHP
Impact velocity: 889 fps (404fpe)
Average recovered diameter: 0.680"

Vcav = 392.366 fps
Mw = 62.603 grams (2.208 ounces)
Xcm = 36.748 cm (14.468 inches)

Remington .45ACP 230 gr. "Golden Sabre" JHP
Impact Velocity: 971 fps
Retained Weight: 182.4 grains (79.30%)

Vc: 400.698 fps
Mw: 50.193 gm (1.771 oz)
Xcm: 35.165 cm (13.844 in)

.45ACP 230 gr. Gold Dot JHP
Exp 0.735”
Vi = 984 feet per second (494fpe)
Wr= 230.9 grains

Vc = 383.316 feet per second
Mw = 67.378 grams (2.377 oz)
Xin = 13.486 inches (34.253 cm)

Hornady .45ACP 230 gr. +P XTP JHP (#9096) v. four layers of denim
Vi = 916.7 feet per second
Mr = 229.6 grains (99.83% retained mass)
Dr = 0.595 inch (1.3171x caliber)

Vcav = 402.829 feet per second
Mw = 63.390 grams (2.236 ounces)
Xcm = 46.430 centimeters (18.279 inches)

Winchester Ranger .45 ACP 230 gr. +P JHP (RA45TP) v. four layers of denim
Vi = 990 feet per second
Mr = 230.2 grains
Dr = 0.769 inch

Vcav = 372.928 feet per second
Mw = 68.886 grams (2.430 ounces)
Xcm = 31.951 centimeters (12.579 inches)

Winchester Ranger .45 ACP 230 gr. +P JHP (RA45TP) v. heavy bone

Recovered Projectile Data:
Recovered Diameter: 0.6675" (1.4781x caliber))
Retained Mass: 229.7 gr.
Impact Velocity: 990 fps

Predicted Performance:
Cavitation Boundary (Vc) = 390.249 fps
Permanent Wound Cavity Mass (Mw) = 67.304 grams (2.374 ounces)
Penetration Depth (Xcm) = 40.037 cm (15.763 inches)

The Golden Saber fragmented when pushed into the upper 900s; however, the 230gr GD and Win RA45TP are monster loads that hit very hard and create larger crush cavities than the 10mm.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The one person who probably saved the 10mm is Mike McNett who started Double Tap ammo.


Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"



Looks like the DT 45auto 230gr GD runs heads-up (penetration/expansion) with the 10mm/180gr GD despite the 10mm's greater KE advantage. Another vote for the momentum model if you want to compare numbers. [ :)

Loosedhorse
September 27, 2011, 05:59 PM
A bit over a year ago, McNett added a 125 gr Tac-XP (DPX) load for 10 and .40, quoting 1600 and 1390fps, respectively. He also has a 230gr hardcast @ 1120 for 10.

2zulu1
September 27, 2011, 06:19 PM
A bit over a year ago, McNett added a 125 gr Tac-XP (DPX) load for 10 and .40, quoting 1600 and 1390fps, respectively. He also has a 230gr hardcast @ 1120 for 10.
I ordered DT's 230gr WFN and was very disappointed with its QA. A random sample of 10 bullets weighed between 221grs-223grs and a lot of lube was missing. The 200gr WFNs were spot on and I prefer them over the 230gr offerings.

I haven't done a lot of testing with the Barnes bullet, but in one test 3 petals folded backward while the oppposite 3 petals remained expanded, that resulted in the bullet tumbling. The same petal issue can be found in JHP bullets across the board, so it's not a knock against only Barnes. A great feature of the Barnes bullet is that it will hold up at the advertised 1600fps and not fragment.

jmr40
September 27, 2011, 07:21 PM
How can 10mm be advantageous over .40S&W against 4-legged predators, but the two be roughly equal against 2-legged predators? Doesn't just about everyone swear by the old adage, carry the most powerful gun you're proficient with?


Humans ain't as hard to kill as a 500 lb black bear. A 124 gr 9mm hollowpoint @ 1200 fps stops a human as well as anything. Any more is just a waste. A 200 gr 10mm hardcast semi-wadutter @1300 fps won't stop a human any faster, but will penetrate deep enough to make a difference on larger tougher animals.

Strykervet
September 27, 2011, 07:29 PM
Yes, there some police departments in the US that still use them. There aren't a lot though, but that has much more to do with the cost of ammo than anything else. They can't reload, and so why use a round that costs much more than another?

To the civilian and especially the reloader/handloader, the 10mm is THE cartridge. It is VERY flexible. You can get fast/light like a .357mag but bigger, or slow/heavy like a .45 but better sectional density. It has more energy than any other standard semi auto handgun cartridge (there are a couple of wildcats, one of the sooperdooper .45's that are higher, but they are even much less common than 10mm) and lies between the .357mag and the .41mag in terms of power. The G20 has 15rd. mags, the G29 10rd. I think it is the best calibre for defense that one can get.

I love mine. They are more accurate than my .40, much safer and easier to reload for compared to .40, and just a joy to shoot. The .40 really works the best with the 165gr. bullet, but the 10mm works great with everything from 135gr. to 200gr.

The .40 is just a specialized 10mm round, cut down to allow the use of a 9mm frame, but it really stretches that to the limit. In fact, the only differences in the cartridge really are that the 10mm is a little longer (not only allowing more powder, but keeping the long 10mm bullets from seating so deep and keeping pressure down) and the 10mm uses a large primer. The loading dies for .40 and 10mm are the same dies, just like .357 and .38spcl. But the .40 is "good enough" in most cases, much cheaper to shoot factory ammo, and fits smaller hands and larger hands alike, so it has become the LE round of choice.

As for recoil, I have Glocks in 9mm, .40, .45ACP, 10mm. The G27 has far more felt recoil and impulse (the snap) than the 10mm G29. I was told this by my army buddy, his 16yo. daughter who shot up all my 10mm practice ammo, and my wife. They all liked a milder 10mm load (but still too hot to load in a .40) using a heavy bullet, like 180gr. or 200gr. I carry a stiff but certainly not a "hot" load (it is a book load) 180gr. XTP at over 1200fps from a G29. You can get 'em up to 1300+, but that overdoes it a little. My G27 gets similar performance --but from 135gr. Corbon loads!

Factory 10mm ammo is generally loaded so weak as to not be worth it. Double Tap and Buffalo Bore load hot ammo, but it still costs more than what I load, and I've heard of QC problems with DT. The stuff made by the well known companies, Winchester, Federal, Hornady, etc., are all anemic. I don't even bother with factory 10mm ammo. Most of it is just .40 loads in 10mm cases! I've even seen .40 loads that were more powerful than the 10mm load between two different companies, different bullets but same weight. So if you don't load for this one, it really isn't worth it. If you don't load, the .40 is a far better choice, seriously.

But if you do load, you can get great performance with it using book loads, you don't have to hotrod it. I really don't understand why ammo makers don't make their 10mm stuff a little spicier, more like their own loading data!? The pistols can take it no problem, albeit some better than others. The strength in chamber thickness generally goes, from thick to thin, the old Smith and Wesson semi autos, The Glock pistols, the Delta Elite. But the Delta Elite has better chamber support than the Glock, so that makes up for some. The old Smiths were tanks. Not sure about where EAA an others fit in.

I like the G29 for carry, the G20 for range and woods, and I want a Smith, perhaps for both.

If you do go 10mm, if you do go to loading your own, it opens up a whole new world of shooting, like specialty rounds and rounds that perform best in your particular firearms. You can also use any wildcat and it won't kill you on cost. In addition to 10mm and the "basic" fare like .308, .223, 9mm, etc., I also load/shoot 6.5Grendel, .50Beowulf, and I'll be loading .300BLK soon, along with .338Lapua and maybe .416Barrett in the future. No way I could afford to shoot those truly AWESOME rounds without reloading. In addition to reloading, I handload too --I get all new components and make "factory" new ammo myself. These are generally what I carry when I carry my own loads.

For some reason, the best calibres are the obscure calibres. I don't get it, I really don't. But if you go 10mm, you should really load your own, and if you load your own, the way to make it pay off the most is if you intend on shooting a few obscure or expensive calibres.

pisc1024
September 27, 2011, 07:53 PM
'Nuff said.
Care to enlighten me then? What rules that apply to any gun fight that you have ever been in could you be talking about?

FadingSwordsman
September 27, 2011, 08:15 PM
Care to enlighten me then? What rules that apply to any gun fight that you have ever been in could you be talking about?

The one that applies to over-penetration:

Be aware of your target and what's behind it

pisc1024
September 27, 2011, 08:31 PM
The one that applies to over-penetration:

Be aware of your target and what's behind it




The risk of over penetration is inherent with almost any round that will successfully pass the FBI standards. This is there to help ensure that the round will penetrate sufficiently through the body at any angle.

FadingSwordsman
September 27, 2011, 08:34 PM
The risk of over penetration is inherent with almost any round that will successfully pass the FBI standards. This is there to help ensure that the round will penetrate sufficiently through the body at any angle.

Yeah, but when you're shooting through dry wall to hit someone, you aren't exactly aware of what's behind your target.

And over-penetration only really comes into play with rule 4 violations...

pisc1024
September 27, 2011, 08:48 PM
Yeah, but when you're shooting through dry wall to hit someone, you aren't exactly aware of what's behind your target.

And over-penetration only really comes into play with rule 4 violations...
A windshield too?
I can see your point with dry wall. Some people would not feel comfortable taking shots like that. I had a friend however who was shot several times while making a SWAT entry into a crack house. He was shot by a teenager through the wall of a bed room. My friend returned fire back through the wall as he was laying on the floor.
I know you are going to say "well he was a swat cop..." All I'm saying is that you just don't ever know. You don't know when you may be called upon to make a shot through dry wall with some one behind it. If you did know what was going to happen then obviously yes you could tailor your ammo load out for it. I feel though, as some one who carries a gun, if you are LEO or not, it is wise to choose ammo that will perform adequately through intermediate barriers. The scenarios faced by COPS are a real possibility for the no LEO too.
Sorry if the response is a little long winded

FadingSwordsman
September 27, 2011, 10:35 PM
A windshield too?
I can see your point with dry wall. Some people would not feel comfortable taking shots like that. I had a friend however who was shot several times while making a SWAT entry into a crack house. He was shot by a teenager through the wall of a bed room. My friend returned fire back through the wall as he was laying on the floor.
I know you are going to say "well he was a swat cop..." All I'm saying is that you just don't ever know. You don't know when you may be called upon to make a shot through dry wall with some one behind it. If you did know what was going to happen then obviously yes you could tailor your ammo load out for it. I feel though, as some one who carries a gun, if you are LEO or not, it is wise to choose ammo that will perform adequately through intermediate barriers. The scenarios faced by COPS are a real possibility for the no LEO too.
Sorry if the response is a little long winded

Rereading your previous post, I have to agree with you... For some reason I thought you were on the side advocating the whole "OMG over penetration means we should all download rounds to break on one walllll" camp... Apologies, my reading comprehension must be failing me tonight...

Back to the issue: you don't want your bullets to fragment. Even without violating the 4th rule, you could hit, say, a metal lighter/flask/necklace where fragmenting prevents penetration and diverts energy sideways instead of through a barrier.

RNB65
September 27, 2011, 10:42 PM
Gary Napolitano hosted a list of LE agencies that used 10mm handguns...

Raleigh NC PD switched to .45ACP.

pisc1024
September 27, 2011, 11:30 PM
Rereading your previous post, I have to agree with you... For some reason I thought you were on the side advocating the whole "OMG over penetration means we should all download rounds to break on one walllll" camp... Apologies, my reading comprehension must be failing me tonight...

Back to the issue: you don't want your bullets to fragment. Even without violating the 4th rule, you could hit, say, a metal lighter/flask/necklace where fragmenting prevents penetration and diverts energy sideways instead of through a barrier.

No worries on the reading thing, no one ever accused me of being a skillful writer, so the blame could just as easily fall on me.:)

You also made a great point on the fragmentation of rounds. The last thing I would want to do is be forced to shoot at an adversary only to have my rounds be diverted away by some object. I worry a lot about barrier performance. I feel that handgun rounds don't have a lot going for them so I like to get as much weight retention as I can with mine. Rifles I think have a little more wiggle room with it, but not much.

alex4922
September 28, 2011, 01:05 AM
For those who worry over ammo costs in 10mm and own or think about owning a Glock 20 I can honestly tell my story. I read online from a reputable and long posting authority that the Glock 20 will digest .40 SW without a hitch. Being the unstoppable experimenter I had to try. My 1st Gen model 20 had not a bit of trouble with factory .40 or my handloads. The huge extractor on the Glock grabs the extractor grove and holds the round to an acceptable headspace. When I aquired a Gen II it too had no problems with the .40. I got away from the Glocks for awhile because the grip angle was not natural for me but my love for the 10mm didn't go away. I bought a witness 10 in the wunder finish and still have it. It unfortunately does not like .40s so that means more time reloading.

Truly, as to "stopping power" a well trained and motivated warrior with any modern handgun can win the day against evil.

FWIW Alex

Loosedhorse
September 28, 2011, 08:51 AM
I had a friend however who was shot several times while making a SWAT entry into a crack house. He was shot by a teenager through the wall of a bed room. My friend returned fire back through the wall as he was laying on the floor.
I know you are going to say "well he was a swat cop..." All I'm saying is that you just don't ever know.Your point is illustrative.

Correct: we don't expect the murderous to obey Rule 4. So, the fact that your (I will assume real) friend was shot at through a wall is hardly surprising.

Also correct: you just don't ever know. Like whether an innocent was right next to the shooter, or being used as a human shield. Too bad for them, I guess: acceptable losses. :rolleyes:

I can't tell you or anyone whether to take a blind shot to try to stop in-coming fire; it is equivalent to "suppressive fire", shooting into an area without any defined target.

However, if I was doing suppressive fire, I'd prefer a crew-served, belt-fed gun--as well as the sure knowledge that anyone "between the stakes" was enemy.

Perhaps, you will open a thread like, "Rule 4 doesn't always apply" to discuss this topic; given the fresh perspective of someone like yourself who has just discovered the rule, it could be very educational. But in this thread, it seems further discussion of Rule 4 would be off-topic.

hatt
September 28, 2011, 05:26 PM
In the middle of a gunfight you aren't going to be strictly following rule 4. Perps usually aren't going to stand still while you ponder if anyone else could be possible be hurt with the shot.

Loosedhorse
September 28, 2011, 05:53 PM
In the middle of a gunfight you aren't going to be strictly following rule 4.You are free to speculate on what YOU will do in a gunfight. What I plan on doing (if I can't avoid the gunfight) is exactly what I've trained to do (for just a few years now ;)), and that includes obeying Rule 4.

Again, gents, feel free to open another thread if this is a worthwhile topic, rather than hijack this one.

pisc1024
September 30, 2011, 01:54 AM
However, if I was doing suppressive fire, I'd prefer a crew-served, belt-fed gun--as well as the sure knowledge that anyone "between the stakes" was enemy.



Well in that situation I know for a fact that my friend, who is very real, would have preferred a tank! But just as you state you would like a crew-served, we don't always get what we want. In the end it's all about doing the best we can with the equipment we have on hand.

pisc1024
September 30, 2011, 01:55 AM
You are free to speculate on what YOU will do in a gunfight. What I plan on doing (if I can't avoid the gunfight) is exactly what I've trained to do (for just a few years now ;)), and that includes obeying Rule 4.



I guess for some it's all about speculation huh?

Loosedhorse
September 30, 2011, 09:15 AM
I guess for some it's all about speculation huh? Sure--as long as you believe that the truism "In an emergency, you will do as you have trained" is just speculation?

If you're selling a better brand of speculation than that, let us know. :Dwould have preferred a tank!A tank's main gun, of course, would endanger not only any innocents in the room, but innocents anywhere down range--even through a house or two. Likely including fellow officers.

I will continue to assume that your friend is real, and add the assumption his desire for a tank is real. That desire does seem to emphasize his disregard for other's safety. I have noticed that in certain segments of the LE community, the phrase "protect and serve" has been replace by "whatever it takes to get me home"--and apparently that includes the reckless endangering of innocents, in the opinion of your friend.

Let's hope his attitude is not widespread.But just as you state you would like a crew-served, we don't always get what we want.No: it's about avoiding horrendous, dangerous "tactics." If you don't have what is required for suppressive fire---like an established free-fire zone clear of friendlies--maybe you shouldn't be doing suppressive fire. :rolleyes:

Are you honestly so cowardly about your "Rule 4 doesn't matter" attitude that you are unwilling to open a thread on the topic in the general forum? Just hoping that no one beside me will visit a thread on 10mm to challenge you on your ridiculous and dangerous attitude? But I forget: you just found out what Rule 4 is...so that would make you an authority on its many exceptions!

Saints preserve us.

pisc1024
September 30, 2011, 11:18 AM
Sure--as long as you believe that the truism "In an emergency, you will do as you have trained" is just speculation?

If you're selling a better brand of speculation than that, let us know. :DA tank's main gun, of course, would endanger not only any innocents in the room, but innocents anywhere down range--even through a house or two. Likely including fellow officers.

I will continue to assume that your friend is real, and add the assumption his desire for a tank is real. That desire does seem to emphasize his disregard for other's safety. I have noticed that in certain segments of the LE community, the phrase "protect and serve" has been replace by "whatever it takes to get me home"--and apparently that includes the reckless endangering of innocents, in the opinion of your friend.

Let's hope his attitude is not widespread.No: it's about avoiding horrendous, dangerous "tactics." If you don't have what is required for suppressive fire---like an established free-fire zone clear of friendlies--maybe you shouldn't be doing suppressive fire. :rolleyes:

Are you honestly so cowardly about your "Rule 4 doesn't matter" attitude that you are unwilling to open a thread on the topic in the general forum? Just hoping that no one beside me will visit a thread on 10mm to challenge you on your ridiculous and dangerous attitude? But I forget: you just found out what Rule 4 is...so that would make you an authority on its many exceptions!

Saints preserve us.

Wow, just wow dude... That last statement was a real gem. You obviously know a lot more about this stuff then I do so I'll defer to my intellectual superior. Your insight on that incident was eye opening to say the least. ;)

Loosedhorse
September 30, 2011, 12:33 PM
I take it then you decline to try to defend your position on Rule 4. That's fine, and what I expected. Dude.

hatt
September 30, 2011, 01:01 PM
Where can you get the training that allows you to instantly and accurately calculate while under stress that you're not potentially violating rule 4 during a shooting?

Clearly you could never pull your gun on the street unless you could always insure the perp is between you and a stone wall. And then you'd have to make sure the angle was perfect to avoid a ricochet hitting a little girl on her bike down the road. Or in a store, more sheetrock, and who knows what on the other side.

Loosedhorse
September 30, 2011, 09:44 PM
Where can you get the training that allows you to instantly and accurately calculate while under stress that you're not potentially violating rule 4 during a shooting?Where do you get the authority to say you shouldn't be concerned with Rule 4 in that situation?

"Potentially"? What's that? You're either sure of your target and your environment (what's beyond) or you're not.

Is ANYONE going to end the high-jack of this thread, and open a Rule 4 thread?

Mainsail
September 30, 2011, 10:43 PM
I like girls. I like them a lot.

Art Eatman
October 1, 2011, 12:30 AM
Gone way away from the OP...

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