how much to FL Sizing increase .223 brass length


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CJK8
September 27, 2011, 03:56 PM
FL sizing my .223 brass causes it to lengthen by 6/1000s as compared to what it measured immediately before resizing? Is that about normal? Add the 3/1000s it grows from just firing the brass and that means I have to trim brass after every firing, since I FL size after every firing. If the brass would only grow by 3/1000s from sizing, I wouldn't have to trim it every time. Will partial FL Sizing cut down on my 6/1000s growth? Thanks.

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Waywatcher
September 27, 2011, 04:00 PM
How much are you bumping the shoulder back? If you are over-resizing, that could be the problem. Where is the shoulder on your fired brass?

CJK8
September 27, 2011, 04:04 PM
I don't know. I am just following the die instructions and wondering if 6/1000s of growth from sizing alone is normal.

243winxb
September 27, 2011, 04:25 PM
Not normal for me to have to trim after each FL sizing. You could buy a RCBS X die. This die will keep the brass from growing.

Funshooter45
September 27, 2011, 04:47 PM
Different cartridges tend to grow at different rates when FL sized. And then different rifles with different headspace conditions also add to the variability. Your growth is more than any of my rifles, but I wouldn't say it is entirely abnormal. The growth of 0.003" just from firing tells me that you do have more headspace than what I observe in my rifles, but it's not alarming.

But yeah, learn how to do partial length resizing and it will cut back on the amount of case stretching to some degree.

You don't say whether your .223 is a bolt action or semi-auto. If it's an auto, then I don't really know the issues on partial length resizing. Proper feeding might be an issue there.

gearheadpyro
September 27, 2011, 04:49 PM
It depends on your die and your brass. The expander ball inside the die is usually what stretches the brass, and if you've got thick military brass you may be pulling on that a bit more than normal. Try putting just a smidge of lube on the inside of the case neck and see if that changes things. Make sure to get the lube off once you've resized it (I run mine through the tumbler again after f/l sizing).

A headspace gauge will help you determine how much you are moving the shoulder and if it is excessive. For my ar I try to push the shoulder back .003-.005". Bolt guns I shoot for 0.002-0.003" bump.

cfullgraf
September 27, 2011, 08:24 PM
i check the length of my cases after every firing in a go-no-go length gauge and trim only the ones that do not fit. I routinely trim 25% to 33% of the cases processed. This includes 223 Remington fired in ARs.

So, I expect my brass is lengthening about 0.002" to 0.003" inches per firing from the length before firing.

Note, cases usually get shorter when fired.

Walkalong
September 27, 2011, 08:39 PM
Measure it after sizing and before loading. Shoot it, clean it, resize it, and measure it again. Whatever that difference is will be how much it grew. I doubt it will be .006. Regardless, the stretching will slow with each firing/sizing.

ranger335v
September 27, 2011, 09:34 PM
" I am just following the die instructions and wondering if 6/1000s of growth from sizing alone is normal."

Let's just say it isn't abnormal.

The amount of case growth can vary quite a bit, mostly by the diameter of the chamber and the diameter of the FL die, especially if we jam the fired cases as far into the sizer as we can get it to go. Resizing so the sized shoulder is at the same point or a thou less as the fired shoulder point will reduce but not always stop such growth.

Following factory die adjustment 'instructions' certainly makes ammo that will go BANG! But, it rarely makes ammo that actually fits the chamber; 'custom fitted ammo' is a lot of what reloading should be about.

CJK8
September 28, 2011, 12:17 AM
Measure it after sizing and before loading. Shoot it, clean it, resize it, and measure it again. Whatever that difference is will be how much it grew. I doubt it will be .006. Regardless, the stretching will slow with each firing/sizing.

That is what I did. Started at 1.752" before loading. Shot, cleaned, and resized it then measures 1.761". .003" was from firing and .006" was from resizing. This is out of my bolt action. Out of my mini 14, the brass does shorten after firing but then gets back to about the pre-fired length after resizing.

Waywatcher
September 28, 2011, 12:47 AM
If you want to know if it's normal, you're going to need a tool to measure shoulder bump. Hornady and RCBS both make one.

I like the RCBS one I have, factory unfired brass measures at 0.000, fired brass from my AR measures about 0.002; I resize it to -0.001 to 0.000 to be safe.

Without a tool there's no way to know, it'd be a shot in the dark. But bumping the shoulder back too far will definitely lengthen your brass everytime. With the tool you can make informed adjustments to your resizing die (screw it in or out) so it resizes just what you need, not too little and not too much.

Walkalong
September 28, 2011, 08:40 AM
Sounds like some very soft brass, and/or a lot of pressure. .006 is a good bit for one firing, even the first time around. Make sure the decapper is not pulling the necks forward.

But like ranger335v posted:
Let's just say it isn't abnormal.

243winxb
September 28, 2011, 09:23 AM
This is out of my bolt action. To work the brass less, set you FL sizing die so you get a crush fit when closing the bolt. When you set your FL die, start with .010" between shell holder & die. Use a feeler gauge. Or make shims from a soda can, use 2 for a thickness of about .009" Put hole in shim for decapper pin. Check fit in the chamber. If bolt will not close, try .008" or less till bolt closes. Lube the inside of the case neck.

CJK8
October 5, 2011, 12:26 AM
Make sure the decapper is not pulling the necks forward.

How do I determine that? When I pull the brass out of the die it does catch a bit. I talked to a few people and they say that is normal.

I played around with partial FL resizing tonight. I tried with backing the die out about .050". About 2/3rds of the neck was sized. I assume that is normal since I am backing off the die?? The brass still grew about .005" from the resizing. So, I backed the die out about a total of .100". Less than half of the neck was sized. The brass only grew by about .002", however, which is what I was hoping for. But, since not much of the neck was sized I was wondering if I would have enough/appropriate neck tension. Both cases chambered fine, which didn't surprise me since the brass was once fired out of the same gun. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.

Hondo 60
October 5, 2011, 02:02 AM
Something sure doesn't seem right there.

I have to trim after the first firing & then again after about the 3rd or 4th firing.
I trim to 1.750 & trim again after they stretch to 1.757 or more.
(for an AR-15)

Walkalong
October 5, 2011, 08:45 AM
I played around with partial FL resizing tonight. I tried with backing the die out about .050". About 2/3rds of the neck was sized. I assume that is normal since I am backing off the die?? The brass still grew about .005" from the resizing.
Cases get longer when sized. They get skinnier from the die sizing them, and the shoulder gets bumped back a little, unless you have the seater backed off too much, and so the case must get longer. That is why we always trim after sizing.

If you start with sized case that is 1.750, fire it, and then size it, it will be longer. How much is determined by how soft the brass is and how much pressure it was under. Trim if needed. Do it again.

If you want to know if the decapper is pulling necks forward, size with out it to see. If you lube the inside of the neck it shouldn't. Just roll a nylon brush over a lube pad and brush the neck, or dip the neck in mica or graphite. A carbide expander ball helps as well.

Decappers were designed by gremlins. They are a good reason to use a bushing type die, whether a full length one or a neck sizer only. Bottom line though is the standard dies with decappers used properly work well enough most times.

sugarmaker
October 5, 2011, 09:44 AM
On my current .223 setup I get about .001-.002" growth due to sizing when I use a lee collet followed by a redding body die, and I don't have to lube inside the necks. The redding is setting the shoulder back about .004-.005", for highpower competition in an AR. The .001" tolerance I get is mostly due to my measurement tools.

CJK8
October 5, 2011, 11:22 AM
Cases get longer when sized. They get skinnier from the die sizing them, and the shoulder gets bumped back a little, unless you have the seater backed off too much, and so the case must get longer. That is why we always trim after sizing.

If you start with sized case that is 1.750, fire it, and then size it, it will be longer. How much is determined by how soft the brass is and how much pressure it was under. Trim if needed. Do it again.

I get all of that, but I am trying to figure out how to get more than one firing before needing to trim again without going to necksizing. Several people I have talked to and Hondo above say they get about 3 fires before needing to trim. I'd like to get there too if I can. Two firings would be nice. Like I said above, I get .003" of growth from just firing and another .006" from sizing for a total of .009" of growth.

If you want to know if the decapper is pulling necks forward, size with out it to see. If you lube the inside of the neck it shouldn't. Just roll a nylon brush over a lube pad and brush the neck, or dip the neck in mica or graphite. A carbide expander ball helps as well.

I do lube the inside of the necks. I'll try it with taking out the decapper.

Back to my question about partial FL resizing from yesterday. When done properly, does the entire length of the neck not resize like I was explaining? Thanks.

CJK8
October 5, 2011, 11:48 AM
I have been reading how people partial size. They usually say back the die off 1/2 or one full turn and then size a case. They then say the bolt probably will not close and to slowly adjust the die and size until the bolt will close without resistance. That clearly wasn't my experience. My bolt closed fine. Should I be alarmed? Thanks.

Walkalong
October 5, 2011, 12:13 PM
If the entire neck is not sized then the shoulder is not being bumped. That could make it hard to chamber becasue the shoulder is pushed forward until the die shoulder meets it and pushes it back. Might not. You just have to try it.

If it was brass fired in a shorter tighter chamber it could be a loose fit to your chamber unsized. If it was fired in your chamber, it may be tight or may be loose, depending on the pressure you fired it at and how soft/hard the brass is.

I guess I am doing a bad job of describing this, because you do not seem to understand what is going on.

CJK8
October 5, 2011, 12:32 PM
If the entire neck is not sized then the shoulder is not being bumped. That could make it hard to chamber becasue the shoulder is pushed forward until the die shoulder meets it and pushes it back. Might not. You just have to try it.

If it was brass fired in a shorter tighter chamber it could be a loose fit to your chamber unsized. If it was fired in your chamber, it may be tight or may be loose, depending on the pressure you fired it at and how soft/hard the brass is.

I guess I am doing a bad job of describing this, because you do not seem to understand what is going on.


OK. I understand that. What I did yesterday did not bump the shoulder since the neck was not fully sized. However, I don't think the shoulder was pushed forward either because the brass chambered fine and the bolt closed easily. This was brass fired out of the same gun.

I guess I was getting confused in thinking that the shoulder SHOULD HAVE pushed forward and I should not have been able to close the bolt based on what I was reading. But it seeems that is not always the case.

So, it looks like I am stuck with a total of .009" of growth each firing and resizing...meaning I have to trim after each firing. I get these results with various loads and mixed brass. I wish I knew why my brass grew so much compared to others.

Thanks.

Walkalong
October 5, 2011, 02:55 PM
What I did yesterday did not bump the shoulder since the neck was not fully sized. However, I don't think the shoulder was pushed forward either because the brass chambered fine and the bolt closed easilyJust because the brass chambered doesn't mean the shoulder wasn't moved forward a little bit. You have no idea unless you measure it somehow. They sell tools to do that. Some are simple and cheap, and some are more complicated and expensive.

1. Free and easy. I made this for .35 Remington

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=132390&d=1292695880


2. Cheap and easy. Designed for bullets, but will work on shoulders.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=34262/Product/Sinclair-Hex-Style-Bullet-Comparators

Mid priced and works well by all accounts.

3. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=477756

http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/precision_resizing.html


4. Very nice, and pricier.

http://www.larrywillis.com/

CJK8
October 5, 2011, 03:42 PM
If the shoulder moved forward a bit, doesn't that mean the bolt should have been a little difficult to close since the case was fired out of the same gun? In any event, I don't think that has anything to do with keeping my brass from growing so much from sizing...unles I am wrong. Thanks.

MEHavey
October 5, 2011, 05:58 PM
We've danced all around the problem.... back to the basics for the bolt gun:

1. Having removed the extractor (and ejector if req'd) from the bolt, will a fired case rechamber w/o any resistance at all ?

IF YES:
2A. How many successive pieces of scotch (magic)* tape can you put onto to the case bottom to finally get some "feel" to bolt closure? (Magic tape is ~0.002" thick)

3A. Once you get any "feel" at all, measure the case headspace/shoulder position with whatever comparator system you have and subtract 0.002" (that last piece of tape). That measurement is your target from now on when using a full-length resizing die. (Lock the die to that setting and it will minimize case growth from stretching in the future.).

IF NO:
Full length resize in stages (and 1/8 turn per stage) until it just does chamber with no feel. Turn the die back to very near the previous turn position/test/re-adjust barely to chamber and lock it. That is your sizing setting from now on to minimize stretch.

chrome_austex
October 5, 2011, 07:46 PM
Trimming your brass to 1.745 should be ok, right? .. and it would get you closer to 2 shots per trim?

I think most people just resize the necks in bolt guns... I know I did with my bolt gun, and boy did loads last a lot longer between trimmings.

Rounds shot through my AR probably grow close to that much after firing and full-length resizing. I seem to have to trim about every other firing, but I've never measured the exact growth.

Walkalong
October 5, 2011, 08:20 PM
If the shoulder moved forward a bit, doesn't that mean the bolt should have been a little difficult to close since the case was fired out of the same gun?For the second time, no, not necessarily.

bigedp51
October 5, 2011, 09:46 PM
CJK8

When you "partial" full length resize a cartridge case you are squeezing the body and neck of the case. When you squeeze the case in the die the brass can only move and flow upward toward the mouth of the case. When only partially resizing the case it is possible to make the case "longer" than it was after firing. This is because the shoulder of the case moves forward when the case body is compressed.

The shoulder of the case is not pushed back until the resizing die touches the shoulder of the case. Your rifles headspace will determine how far forward the shoulder moves when fired. How far down you adjust the resizing die determines how far "you" will push the shoulder back. The standard for resizing your cases is to push the shoulder back .001 to .002, if you push the shoulder back more than this you are over resizing the case. Over resizing will increase the chances of the case having a case head separation.

Resizing your cases can make them longer "BUT" not lubing the inside of the neck will cause the expander button to stretch your necks and make your cases longer also.

For years all I used were these two washers and by placing them under the lock ring of the die I would partial resize my cases with my full length dies.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7086.jpg

Now I use a RCBS Precision Mic to measure my cases and set up my resizing dies.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7241.jpg

And the old washers have been replaced by headspace control shims under the lock rings.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP4385.jpg


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-17-201055522PM.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-17-201054719PM.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-17-201054345PM.jpg

CJK8
October 6, 2011, 12:24 AM
I took the decapper out. Case still grew .006". So, the expander ball isn't stretching the case any. I guess I am headed towards a head space gauge.

I don't understand why the bolt would still close easily if I pushed the shoulder forward a bit. I throught the brass would have been formed to the chamber and a a push of the shoulder forward would be noticeable.. Oh well, I guess I'll just go with the flow...but wish the brasa would no flow as much. Thanks.

CJK8
October 6, 2011, 12:35 AM
Trimming your brass to 1.745 should be ok, right? .. and it would get you closer to 2 shots per trim?

Yes, except I switched to the Lee trimmer that I can chuck in a drill. It is not adjustable. Otherwise, yeah, I would be doing that.

Walkalong
October 6, 2011, 08:47 AM
I throught the brass would have been formed to the chamber and a a push of the shoulder forward would be noticeable.The case "forms" to the camber, but how much depends on the pressure. Then the brass springs back, or you could not eject the brass.

243winxb
October 6, 2011, 09:14 AM
I have been reading how people partial size. They usually say back the die off 1/2 or one full turn and then size a case. They then say the bolt probably will not close and to slowly adjust the die and size until the bolt will close without resistance. That clearly wasn't my experience. My bolt closed fine. Should I be alarmed? No, it may take more then 3 firings for the case to fully expand to the chamber. Back the FL die off the shell holder by no more then .010" and keep loading till the brass will not chamber. Then adjust you FL die down by .002" till the brass will chamber. I don't understand why the bolt would still close easily if I pushed the shoulder forward a bit. I throught the brass would have been formed to the chamber and a a push of the shoulder forward would be noticeable.. Even when only neck sizing it may take 3 or more firings for the brass to fully expand to the chamber. Some loads will evey make the cartridge headspace shorter on firing. Have you tried a different brand/lot of brass? Does all brass stretch or just one make?

CJK8
October 6, 2011, 11:29 AM
I have tried four diferrent types of brass. All strectch the same.

I think I mentioned earlier that the brass does shorten form fiing out of my mini 14. Not sure why that happens. But the stretching the die causes to my mini 14 brass puts the brass back to where it started, which is perfect.

Walkalong
October 6, 2011, 12:34 PM
I mentioned earlier that the brass does shorten form fiing out of my mini 14. Not sure why that happens.
Fat (generous) chamber in the Mini 14.

When the brass stretches out to fill the diameter of the chamber, it must shorten, just like when you squeeze (size) the brass back down in diameter, it must lengthen.

Catching on yet?

CJK8
October 6, 2011, 01:32 PM
Yeah. That was my guess, but didn't know for sure.

CJK8
November 22, 2011, 06:03 PM
I am thinking about purchasing one of the Skip's Die Shim Kits. The description above says "Dies should be setup with a shim in place (.006" or .007" is suggested for the original set up)." If I want to back the die out by the width of the shim, why would I want to set the die up with the shim in place?

Probably a dumb question but I won't know until I ask. Thanks.

rcmodel
November 22, 2011, 06:07 PM
Skip wants to sell you shims.
And take your money to his bank instead of your bank?

I can't think of very many cases where they would even be needed to adjust a die.

That's what the threads are for.

rc

CJK8
November 22, 2011, 06:17 PM
I take it you don't buy into the partial FL resizing or at least don't see any difference in results.

rcmodel
November 22, 2011, 06:28 PM
I didn't say that.

I said thats what the die threads are for.

You can buy an automotive feeler guage set at AutoZone for little of nothing if you want to accurately measure it.

On the other hand, if you want to use Skips die shims, you should buy them.

rc

CJK8
November 22, 2011, 06:46 PM
Well, I am still confused then. Back to my question: If I want to back the die out by the width of the shim, why would I want to set the die up with the shim in place first? Assuming I need to back the die out .004" and I set up the die first with say the .006" shim in place and the die touching the ram, then I would be adding the .004" shim to the .006" after backing it out instead of setting up the die then only placing the .004" shim between the die and the press. I just don't get why you would set up the die with the shim in place and waste a shim.

kingmt
November 22, 2011, 07:04 PM
Except if you dont bump the shell plate or shim against the die on cam over the flex in the press will very depending on how hard the brass is to size,

cfullgraf
November 22, 2011, 07:11 PM
I agree that it seems confusing. It sounds like the idea is to be able to add or reduce the amount of resizing by changing shims. The .007 or .008 shims are in the middle of the pack.

Without actually seeing the instructions for the shims, not the sales blurb in the catalog, my guess is set up for the dies when using the shims is not quite the same as setting up a die without the shims.

As rcmodel said, get a set of feeler gauges and use the threads on the die for adjustment. You would have more adjustment choices by stacking feeler gauges than the shim set anyway.

fguffey
November 22, 2011, 07:14 PM
CJK8, I do not buy into IT? What ever IT? is. To me nothing would be more mindlessly than removing a die to add and or change a shim, first the die must be screwed (adjusted) to the shell holder to index to .000, to add or make adjustment with Skippy's shims the die must be removed to add a shim, (I am a fan of verifying), after adding Skippy's shim or shims, the reloader should verify with a feeler a gage, if after verifying and the adjustment is not correct, the die must be removed AGAIN!!! and the reloader starts over.

I use the feeler gage, the companion tool to the press, Redding calls it a thickness gage. I use the feeler gage as a transfer, I us it as a standard, I use it to verify, If I had Skippy's shims, I would still need the companion tool to the press, THE FEELER GAGE. If I was making wild guestimates of fractional turn in degrees when adjusting dies, again, I would still need the feeler gage to verify the wild guess in fractional turns in degrees, so I ask, why not skip Skippy’s shims and go straight to the standard, the transfer, the verifier, the feeler gage? (the tool Redding calls a thickness gage).

I use the versatile full length sizer dies to form cases for short chambers, that would be a case that is shorter from the head of the case to it’s shoulder by .012 thousands than a minimum length/full length size case, I use the versatile full length sizer die to size cases that are .002 thousands longer than a field reject chamber/gage, and I size cases in .001 thousands increments from –.012 below a minimum length case to +.002 longer than a field reject chamber, that is 28 options in sizing length with the standard/transfer feeler gage.

Time is a factor.


F. Guffey

fguffey
November 22, 2011, 07:26 PM
Redding competition shell holders are not necessary, grinding the shell holder to reduce the deck height is not necessary, grinding the bottom of the die is not necessary, anything that can be accomplished with Redding competition shell holders can be accomplished with the feeler gage plus 5 additional options, anything accomplished by grinding the shell holder can be accomplished with the feeler gage, when used with an RCBS shell holder the reloader has 12 options between minimum length and –.012, anything accomplished by grinding the die can be accomplished with the feeler gage.

F. Guffey

cfullgraf
November 22, 2011, 08:19 PM
...anything accomplished by grinding the die can be accomplished with the feeler gage.

F. Guffey

Now, this does not make sense to me.

If the die is hard fast against the shell holder at the top of the stroke and things are still too long, how can a feeler gauge help make it shorter without grinding?

kingmt
November 22, 2011, 08:45 PM
By putting it between the head & shell holder.

fguffey
November 22, 2011, 09:27 PM
“I don't understand why the bolt would still close easily if I pushed the shoulder forward a bit” I understand the question, I understand the answer.



“Some loads will evey make the cartridge headspace shorter on firing” ????

Yes, I meant to say something like ‘with an RCBS shell holder’ and .012 thousands and short chambers, I build rifles with short chambers, again, this stuff does not lock me up, the last time this question went around I ask how is it possible to set the shoulder back too far without knowing the length of the chamber from the bolt face to to it’s shoulder. The ability of a die, press and shell holder to size a case is fixed, before the reloader graduates to ‘fire former’ status, I believe they should be required to demonstrate knowledge and skill of the relationship between the case and die when sizing.

F. Guffey

cfullgraf
November 22, 2011, 10:22 PM
By putting it between the head & shell holder.


With the press at the top of the stroke...

If you put the feeler gauge between the shell holder and the die, the distance from the base of the shell holder to the shoulder in the die will be longer.

If you grind the base of the die or the top of the shell holder, then the space from base of the shell holder to shoulder in the die will be shorter.

I still do not understand how using a feeler gauge will help shorten the position of the shoulder of a case when the die is hard against the shell holder at the top of the ram's stroke.

In other words, if you are out of adjustment and want to go shorter, how can a feeler gauge help?

Unless you are saying a properly set up resizing die should never touch the shell holder.

I am not trying to be argumentative, I am just trying to be educated.

fguffey
November 22, 2011, 11:31 PM
Placing the feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and head of the case when sizing reduces the length of the case from the head of the case to it’s shoulder, and that is the reason it is not necessary to grind the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die. Going the other way with Redding competition shell holders, to increase the length of the case from the head of the case to it’s shoulder the feeler gage can be used to adjust the die off the shell holder from .001 to infinity.

F. Guffey

fguffey
November 22, 2011, 11:40 PM
and be careful, do not poke a hole in your feeler gage with the primer punch pin, I am a fan of determining the length of the chamber first, I am not interested in sizing the neck with the expander ball, am not interested in punching primers when all I want to determine is the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber. After the length of the chamber has been determined I can transfer the measurement to the press, die and shell holder with a standard. Once I get the shoulder out 'there' I want to leaver out there.

F. Guffey

cfullgraf
November 22, 2011, 11:46 PM
OK, that makes sense.

Thanks

oldfortyfiveauto
November 23, 2011, 12:01 AM
I really like the RCBS gauge, but they get costly with a bunch of calibers to load for. This one works well for most all cartridges with a shoulder.

http://www.larrywillis.com/

gamestalker
November 23, 2011, 12:10 AM
Once you determine how much the shoulder needs to pushed back, you'll have less brass flow during resizing, and your brass will last longer as well. But even so, brass will reach a point usually within the first 3 reloadings, or so, in which it will nearly cease stretching, even if excessively full length resizing.

bigedp51
November 23, 2011, 12:47 AM
CJK8

Normally a full length resizing die will push the shoulder back on the case .002 smaller than minimum headspace when it contacts the shell holder. If your headspace is set .003 over minimum headspace you would be pushing the shoulder back .005 every time you resized you cases. By adding a .003 to .004 shim under the lock ring you would be only be pushing the shoulder back .001 to .002 and not overworking the brass.

How often you have to trim your cases depends on how "fat" and "long" your chamber is and how "skinny" and "short" your reloading dies are. When you resize your cases the brass has only one direction to go and that is forward and into the neck. This is why custom reloading dies are made from three fired cases from "YOUR" chamber to make the dies a perfect fit for your chamber. (minimum resizing of the case)

fguffey
November 23, 2011, 09:09 AM
“By adding a .003 to .004 shim under the lock ring you would be only be pushing the shoulder back .001 to .002 and not overworking the brass”

So much for product knowledge, forget demonstrating skills and knowledge, Ed has been pushing Skip’s spacers, now? I believe it is your money he is trying to spend.

I would suggest, before taking advise from the Internet, purchase a feeler gage and practice, practice practice. Based on the advise Ed just presented, adding a shim beneath the lock ring will raise the lock ring and do nothing for sizing, but, if you adjust the die off the shell holder with Skip’s shims, verify the adjustment with the feeler gage, eventually it will dawn on you, you do not need skip’s shims to adjust the die, when adjusting the die off the shell holder go straight to the transfer/standard for setting air gaps, the feeler gage, the companion tool to the press.

Even if I had Skip’s shims I would find them less than nice to have, one more time, I have a M1917 with .016 thousands head space, or put another way I have a M1917 that has a chamber that is .016 thousands longer than a minimum length/full length sized case, or put another way I have a chamber in a M1917 that is longer than a go-gage length chamber by .011 thousands. the first time I fired the M1917 with .016 thousands head space I fired it with .002 thousands head space.

And I said, the die must be adjusted to zero or .000 off or to the shell holder first, with gigs and gigs of space used to promote Skip’s shims you would think the promoter of the devise would take the time to demonstrate his knowledge and use of the shims. I do not own Skip’s shims, but if I did when using Skip’s shims I would first loosen the lock ring then back it off, then screw the die into the press with the ram raised, once the die contacted the shell holder I would then adjust the lock ring down to make contact with the press THEN secure the lock ring to the die, and, I would call that indexed to .000.

After indexing to .000 I would remove the die from the press, add a shim beneath the lock ring then (again) screw the die down until the lock ring secured the shim to the press, and the part that renders Skip’s shims less than nice to have, I would verify the gap with a standard, the feeler gage. So without Skip’s shims I go straight to the standard/transfer, companion to the press, the feeler gage when adjusting the die to the shell holder.

Lock rings: If in my possession there is a die with the lock ring secured to the die, it is not my die, because I adjust my dies to the shell holder every time.



F. Guffey

bigedp51
November 24, 2011, 12:48 PM
The problem with the Internet is that we have "SO" many experts who do not know what they are talking about.

1. You have a lot of slop in your reloading die threads that can cause run-out problems, therefore it is very important that the die is centered in the press and the cartridge case is centered in the die.

2. If you loosen the lock ring on your dies playing with feeler gauges your die "MUST BE RE-CENTERED" or your neck run-out will increase.

3. Using shimming washers under the lock ring does "NOT" require adjusting and re-centering your dies, using feeler gauges requires die adjustment and centering and checking neck run-out with "EACH" lock ring die adjustment.

I just purchased a Forster neck bushing and shoulder bump die, the die is adjusted as per normal touching the shell holder plus approximately 1/8 of a turn more. If I do not want shoulder bump I use a .010 shim washer, if I want to bump the shoulder I use thinner washers.

In closing, just because shimming washers or longer shell holders are availably "TODAY" doesn't mean your knuckles have to drag on the ground and use "OLDER" less accurate reloading methods. On top of this all my methods can be found at http://www.accurateshooter.com/ and are used by competitive shooters AKA "The Big Boys".

CJK8
November 24, 2011, 02:28 PM
What I can't get my head around is this. That extra 1/8 of a turn when setting up the dies is so to have the press cam over. If I put a .010" shim washer between the die and the press, I would not think that that would make any difference in how much the die sizes the brass. I sized brass with the dies set up at both the 1/8 of a turn so that the press cammed over and also backing the die out so that it touched the ram without camming over. The die set the shoulder back to the same place in both instances. So, if I turn the die down that extra 1/8 of a turn and then set a shim that is .010" between the die and the press, in my mind, that extra 1/8 of a turn is lowering the die more than .010" will raise the die up. Am I wrong? I have to be if it works for you unless I don't understand what you are saying.

Also, does Home Depot or Lowe's sell washers that are that thin? I was going to go look sometime, but I don't think they would. Thanks.

rcmodel
November 24, 2011, 02:37 PM
One complete 14TPI thread is .0715".
So 1/8 turn would be slightly less then .009".

rc

bigedp51
November 24, 2011, 05:41 PM
Ladies and Germs

Do you actually think once the die contacts the shell holder and you turn the die 1/8th of a turn more that the shell holder is going to compress .009.

All your doing is taking any slop out of the press and making sure the shell holder and die are making maximum 100% contact.

Before fguffey and the invention of the "feeler gauge" there were books and articles on reloading. Pictured below dated 1974 is the Speer number nine reloading manual and a section of the reloading manual entitled:

"Modern Benchrest Reloading Techniques"

And during this "SAME" time period shimming washers were used by competitive shooters for their reloading dies and feeler gauges were used to adjust your point gap on your 54 Chevy.

Below the 1974 Speer reloading manual, with "modern Benchrest Reloading Techniques", and how I set up my reloading dies and "NOT" one word about feeler gauges. What does the words "Shade tree mechanic" and Feeler gauges mean to you! :eek:

CJK8
November 24, 2011, 05:56 PM
I understand that the extra 1/8 turn is to ensure all play is taken out of the threads as that is why the instructions to the die say to make that 1/8 turn and have the press cam over. What I am struggling to understand is, if you put a .010" washer shim between the press and the die such that you have effectively eliminated that 1/8 turn and the press no longer cams over, haven't you also reintroduced the play in the threads since the die and shell holder are no longer making 100% contact????

rcmodel
November 24, 2011, 06:05 PM
There is no play in the threads if the die lock-ring is tight.

The play is in the press linkage & pins, and the press frame may also flex slightly at cam over.

You are correct that putting a .010" shim under the die lock-ring would elminate the press flex take-up.

But it will still be taken up when you size the case.
But the case shoulder would be pushed back precisely .010" less, if that's what you are trying to do.

rc

CJK8
November 24, 2011, 06:36 PM
Ok, then I don't understand why biged doesn't like feeler gauges and thinks that die will not be centered if I were to do the following. Place a feeler gauge with a thickness of .010" on top of the shell holder, raise the shell holder all the way up, screw the die down until it touches the feeler gauge, and then screw the lock ring down tight. I don't understand how that gives a differrent or less desriable setting than using a .010" washer shim. Thanks.

bigedp51
November 24, 2011, 09:34 PM
CJK8

In the Speer article on "Modern Benchrest Reloading Techniques" the majority of it deals with centering the die body and decaping rod/expander button to increase accuracy and decreasing neck run-out.

The article states that more "INACCURATE" reloaded ammunition is made than "ACCURATE" ammunition because the die body is off center and more importantly the expander button is locked down off center.

The reason I do not like the "feeler gauge method" is because it requires re-centering the die and expander button "EVERY" time you adjust or move the die. This means making and testing dummy rounds for run-out "EVERY" time you move the die.

What fguffey and many of you do not understand is there was a reason the shimming washers and taller shell holders were made and that was to increase accuracy of loaded ammunition and not induce run-out error into your loaded rounds. What angers me is fguffey comments added to the fact he didn't do his home work on these reloading aids or "WHY" they were made in the first place.

The body of the reloading die is "NOT" self centering and the lock ring can pull the die off center and there are important steps in aligning and centering your reloading dies.

1. With the lock ring loose you place a lubed case in the shell holder and raise the ram, this centers the die. Next you lock the lock ring down with the die centered and then release pressure on the press handle and try to rotate the shell holder. If the shell holder binds and will not rotate freely the die body is not yet centered in the press. (the case extractor groove is binding in the shell holder because it is off center)

2. The expander button is centered by leaving the lock ring loose until the button just starts to enter the neck of the case and is "centered" in the neck, then the lock ring is tightened down.

3. Now guess why they make self centering bushing dies that do not have expander buttons. :eek:

4. There is nothing wrong with using the feeler gauge method "BUT" it requires the case to be re-centered each and every time you loosen the die lock ring. Using shim washers once the die is setup and centered you "NEVER" have to adjust the die again.

So Mr. fguffey go ahead and tell the world and everyone in it again that I do not know what I'm doing. :rolleyes:

Better yet just go to http://www.accurateshooter.com/ and read the reloading articles written by the experts.

"All the information in the world is written in books and all you have to do is read"

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