Glock 20SF?


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browncoatdawn
September 28, 2011, 04:16 AM
Hello, I would appreciate any insight into this pistol. I have never owned a Glock, and to be honest, the 10mm is the only round that I find interesting enough to consider buying a Glock. I was wondering if anyone knows anything about their current chamber support setup, i.e. has it improved with the models, or is it still fairly loose?
I will probably be using doubletap ammo in it if i make the purchase. I do some hand loading, but I don't have dies for this round as of yet.

I am also aware of the EEA Witness 10mm and the Colt Delta Elite. I like the feel of the Delta, but I haven't found one locally.
I also like the old 10mm S&W but I haven't seen one in years.

I welcome all information, thank you much.

Dustin

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sargents1
September 28, 2011, 11:40 AM
Hello, I would appreciate any insight into this pistol. I have never owned a Glock, and to be honest, the 10mm is the only round that I find interesting enough to consider buying a Glock. I was wondering if anyone knows anything about their current chamber support setup, i.e. has it improved with the models, or is it still fairly loose?
I will probably be using doubletap ammo in it if i make the purchase. I do some hand loading, but I don't have dies for this round as of yet.

I am also aware of the EEA Witness 10mm and the Colt Delta Elite. I like the feel of the Delta, but I haven't found one locally.
I also like the old 10mm S&W but I haven't seen one in years.

I welcome all information, thank you much.

Dustin

The Chamber support for the newer Glocks is not too bad, better than it used to be (as far as I know).

Here is a link to my review of the G20SF that I bought this spring. There is a picture there that shows the chamber support of the Stock barrel and a Lone Wolf aftermarket barrel.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=115038

If you are going to run hot ammo like Double Tap I think its a good idea to get a heavier recoil spring. I have the 22lb spring in mine and my brass comes out looking nice.

Glock Chambers are somewhat looser than the Lone Wolf chamber based on my measurements, but not excessively so. The case support is basically the same, but the Glock chamber is just slightly larger in diameter.

I have had few instances where my gun has failed to go fully into battery while using the Lone Wolf barrel. A quick tap on the back of the slide fixed it. I havent shot the Glock barrel enough to know if this would happen with the GLock barrel. My cousin has a regular G20 with the stock barrel and he HAS had his gun fail to go into battery, so this may be more related to ammo or magazines than to the barrel.

Overall I really like the G20 and G20SF. They are very accurate (2in at 25yds is no problem) and quite reliable. The ergonomics are pretty good and the guns are very high quality. If you have smaller hands the SF is the way to go, if you dont then the std G20 should be fine.

G20 on left, G20SF on the right.
http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g359/Sargents77/Cliffs%20SR1911%20and%20G20/DSC02338.jpg

Hello good lookin'
http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g359/Sargents77/G20SF/DSC02126.jpg

Everything I have heard about the Delta and the old Smith 1006 guns is good, but I have no direct experience with them. Ditto (mostly) for the Tanfoglio/Witness guns, except that EAA has a poor reputation for customer service and there are some people reporting problems with the older Witness mags.

browncoatdawn
September 28, 2011, 01:40 PM
Thank you for that bit of info. I hope to hear a little bit more on the Smiths, as they always seemed to be a real well made chunk of stainless.

MachIVshooter
September 30, 2011, 01:19 AM
I hope to hear a little bit more on the Smiths, as they always seemed to be a real well made chunk of stainless.

The 1006 is the most robust 10mm ever made. They're also quite accurate, comfortable and reliable in the extreme.

I have 5 10mm's, and the 1006 would be the one I kept if I had to decide.

My Witness Limited is one of the most accurate handguns I've ever fired, with a sweet trigger and awesome ergo's. Also reliable (and great looking).

My Kimber Stainless Target II was my first 10mm, and I also love it. A 23# spring and shock buff took care of the nuclear load reliability issues.

The Witness Compact is also a fantastic little gun. 12+1, nice feel, decent SA trigger and good accuracy. After a minor extractor mod, it's been 100% reliable except for max length loads; seat 0.020" deeper and it's GTG. I suspect this is due to the high velocity of the compact slide with hot loads; It was never a problem with those under 600 ft/lbs.

The Glock 20 is a recent addition, meant to be a 15+1 10mm that I don't care if I beat up in the field. The Limited is far too pretty, the Kimber and Witness Compact don't have the capacity, and the 1006 would be difficult to replace if lost. I don't care for the grip shape, the grip angle, the trigger, the width or the appearance. It is strictly utilitarian and meant to be ridden hard and put away wet without regret. We'll see how long it holds up to S&W-level loads, though; 180's at over 1,400 aren't easy on guns.

In summary, if you're not in a massive hurry, I'd suggest keeping an eye out for a S&W 10XX and trying to get a Witness FS in your hands before settling. If you like the G20, it should serve you well. I'll just say that I'm glad I have the others to enjoy on the range. The G20 is akin to my shop truck; I don't especially like it, but it serves a purpose and I won't cry if it get's hurt, where I might pop a cork if I saw someone back into my '78 Aspen T-top coupe or '69 Charger R/T. But when I want to enjoy driving, the work truck stays parked.

Loosedhorse
September 30, 2011, 01:25 AM
The 1006 is the most robust 10mm ever made.Meaning, other 10s break more often? Do we have documentation for that?

The Glock 20 seems to recoil for me less than the Smith; not sure if that's from the flex in the polymer frame or the lower bore axis. But I'm not sure the Smith's going to last any longer than a Glock.

MachIVshooter
September 30, 2011, 01:41 AM
Meaning, other 10s break more often? DO we have documentation for that?

Meaning it can handle the abuse on account of material strength and sheer mass.

Considering the number of 10XX series out there, there is a distinct absence of breakage reports. We've had those of cracked Witness slides (the rounded ones), blown-up glocks, 1911 pattern guns with broken barrel links and pins......but nothing of injured 3rd gens.

How many stock .45 Auto's can handle steady diets of .45 Super without modification? The 45XX are the only ones I ever see recommended for the task.

I've stuffed as much 800x into a case as you can and fed them to the 1006; It smiles and keeps on ticking. My 3rd gens are the test platforms for max +++ loads, and not one of them has ever had a failure. I've never truly blown up any gun, but I've hurt a few.

I'm not saying the G-20 can't take it, nor have I damaged the other 10mm's with 800 ft/lb loads thus far. But I would confidently put money on the 1006 outlasting the rest of them in a nuclear load torture test.

Mxracer239y
September 30, 2011, 06:57 AM
*shameless promotion* There may or may not be a S&W 1076 for sale in the classifieds right now. */shameless promotion*

Loosedhorse
September 30, 2011, 08:45 AM
But I would confidently put money on the 1006 outlasting the rest of them in a nuclear load torture test.Hmmm. Not sure what a nuclear torture test would be. But I would (humbly) put my money on the Glock, using hot factory ammo (Corbon, Double-Tap, etc.). Even in a great pistol like the 1006, stress fractures are more likely to happen in steel than plastic.

Peter M. Eick
September 30, 2011, 09:10 AM
The G20 is an accurate, reliable and easy to shoot pistol. I put a KKM barrel and comp in mine and it was nearly perfect. I found one flaw that forced me to sell the gun after about 4000 rounds fired.

Its plastic and the frame flexes.

I found that the grip frame would flex with nearly every shot and this was something that I could not get used to nor liked. Some consider it a feature, but for me it was a fatal flaw. I sold the gun to a shooting buddy and he likes it. If you can deal with the frame flex issue, its a great gun.

http://eickpm.com/picts/10mm_collection.jpg

Here is a picture of my setup years ago.

MachIVshooter
September 30, 2011, 11:20 AM
stress fractures are more likely to happen in steel than plastic.

Truth.

Still, I just can't seem to find any 3rd gen smith pictures like these:

http://frostedbutts.com/images/kB/glock03.jpg

http://www.strelectvi.cz/forum/userpix/4244_glock_kaboom_photo_1.jpg

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowup_images/glock4.jpg


While stress fractures may be more likely, complete failures that occur with polymer guns (not just Glock) don't happen with steel frames.

I may come to trust the 20 completely, but I load hotter than DT, BB or Corbon. None of their loads exceed 800 ft/lbs.

sargents1
September 30, 2011, 11:42 AM
Truth.

Still, I just can't seem to find any 3rd gen smith pictures like these:

http://frostedbutts.com/images/kB/glock03.jpg

http://www.strelectvi.cz/forum/userpix/4244_glock_kaboom_photo_1.jpg

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/blowup_images/glock4.jpg


While stress fractures may be more likely, complete failures that occur with polymer guns (not just Glock) don't happen with steel frames.

I may come to trust the 20 completely, but I load hotter than DT, BB or Corbon. None of their loads exceed 800 ft/lbs.

If you are loading hotter than Double Tap, Buffalo Bore and Corbon, you are likely exceeding the pressure ceiling for the 10mm. I suppose if you are determined to do that, a steel frame gun may serve you better.

I dont think it would be a fair criticism of Glock to say that their guns dont fare well when stoked with home-made Nuke-loads that are running over pressure.

For me, i keep my hand-loads at or under Book Max loads. Sure, I give up some performance, but the paper and steel targets I shoot haven't complained yet:cool:
When I want top performance ammo, I run some kind of Factory ammo (DT, BB or CB) and I know my G20 will eat that without issues.

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if those KB pictures were of .40cal Glocks. I know that some of the older .40cal glocks had minimal chamber support and I have personally witnessed a Glock .40cal KaBoom.

The 10mm is supposed to have thicker brass at the base of the cartridge, and the G20's I have seen (all recent models) have pretty good chamber support. So, despite the 10mm having a higher pressure ceiling than the .40S&W, I have heard fewer 10mm Kaboom stories than .40cal KB's. (that may be because .40cal is so much more popular)

It should also be noted that you can find KaBoom pics of just about any particular model of handgun you would choose to pick on...none of them are indestructible.

I just did a quick google image search and found pics of a Ruger GP100 that someone grenaded...If you can blow up one of those, you can blow up Anything.

Loosedhorse
September 30, 2011, 12:27 PM
Still, I just can't seem to find any 3rd gen smith pictures like theseAll that may prove is that 1006 owners are smarter handloaders than some Glock owners, or that more people post pictures on the internet now than when 1006 were common (were they ever common?). No one should be deluded that you can't destroy a Smith with a hand-grenade reload.

Oh, BTW: if that's what you meant by a nuclear torture test...let's use your guns!

MachIVshooter
September 30, 2011, 02:28 PM
I dont think it would be a fair criticism of Glock to say that their guns dont fare well when stoked with home-made Nuke-loads that are running over pressure.

Saying the strongest of the strong is tougher than the next level down isn't criticizing them or calling them weak.

Nobody argues that a Freedom Arms or BFR isn't stronger than a Ruger. It doesn't mean the Ruger's are weak (duh, right?), just that they're not the toughest out there.

I wouldn't be surprised if those KB pictures were of .40cal Glocks. I know that some of the older .40cal glocks had minimal chamber support and I have personally witnessed a Glock .40cal KaBoom.

Most seem to be (and .357 Sig). I've only ever turned up a handful of 10mm and .45 KB's, I've seen none with 9mm models.

ETA:

The G20 chamber walls are 0.110" thick, the 1006 are 0.130". Chamber support is good in both (very close)

SharpsDressedMan
September 30, 2011, 02:47 PM
If we operate outside of suggested limits, can we be surprised at the results we (may) get?

MachIVshooter
September 30, 2011, 02:50 PM
If we operate outside of suggested limits, can we be surprised at the results we (may) get?

Not at all. But it does drive one to find the hardware best suited to the task.

SharpsDressedMan
September 30, 2011, 06:09 PM
Why do people insist on making "magnums" of things designed to be "non-magnums"?

MachIVshooter
September 30, 2011, 08:55 PM
Why do people insist on making "magnums" of things designed to be "non-magnums"?

Same reason I put higher compression pistons, bigger cams and turbochargers in my cars.

Same reason I used to wire higher voltage transformers to my model train tracks when I was 7 years old.

Some of us are just born hot rodders, destined to squeeze every last bit of performance out of everything up to and exceeding the limits (and how would we know the limits if we didn't exceed them?).

Without this mentality, cars would still accelerate like model T's and the pinnacol of firearm performace would be the .30-30 and .45 Colt.

Maple_City_Woodsman
September 30, 2011, 10:24 PM
And here I though it was because you like to break your toys and spend money? :neener:

SharpsDressedMan
September 30, 2011, 10:52 PM
Actually, guns are often designed from the bottom UP, as was the Glock 20. When used with factory spec ammo, the Glock 20 will have a service life generally longer than MOST other powerful duty weapons. I think one might expect DOUBLE service life from the G20 over the Colt Delta, or other 1911 style 10mm. The S&W IS stronger, and will take your hot rodding longer, but I don't think what you do is the norm.....the average shooter is content with factory offerings. If you hot rod something, you shorten its life (cars, boats, guns, planes, etc). Some people just prefer to have their stuff last longer, rather than "get there quicker". To each their own. By the way, I like the S&W, Glock, AND 1911 guns. They each have unique attributes.

Strykervet
October 1, 2011, 12:02 AM
I have a G20SF. If you get one, get one with the standard mag release, NOT the ambi one. I had to send it back before I ever got to use it. I read online about problems with full mags the night before the range, tried it out, and sure enough --it didn't work, all kinds of problems, then the parts fell out. It went back. They were willing to let me pay for it, but I asked for their shipping acc. number and they paid it.

A few weeks later, I get back a G20SF but with a regular mag release. Now I have no problems out of it and it is one of my tighter fitting Glocks and is quite accurate, it sports adj. sights. I like the more narrow frame compared to my regular G21 frame. The size feels just in between the G17 and the G21, but more like a thicker G17 than the G21 I think. Nice pistol. The chamber support in the later 3rd. gen. pistols, and the slide assembly I have is from a late 3rd gen. pistol, is better than the early pistols, particularly the early .40's, which were a recipe for disaster.

I load exclusively for 10mm. I don't purchase ammo. In addition to the G20, I also load for a G29, my carry piece. I tend to load the new brass and once fired brass to the higher or max loads, and then "retire" the brass to target strength loads. I only use new brass for my carry loads and they are usually loaded near max, but that depends on the bullet. I can get good velocities and much faster loads than the .40 without going over the published book data in Loadbooks and that found from component makers online. I don't load "hot" loads, as it were.

As such, I have little case damage. Sure you can see where the case expanded, the Glock does have a generous chamber. But it is a combat pistol and if you ask them about it that is what they will tell you. The unsupported area causes a very, very faint distortion to the brass when I use my max loads in new brass. I don't get "Glock Smiles", I know what those are. I have a few factory RBCD .40 cases fired from a G27 that nearly failed as a great example. So by managing my brass the way I do, I don't expect to have problems. I also plan on getting a Lee "Bulge Buster" die soon that sizes the whole case and is supposed to extend the life and make chambering easier (bulging over time with Glock brass is problematic in 10mm and .40).

All in all, I love my Glock 10mm's. 2 out of 6 (I thought I had five, but I have six) are 10mm. Nothing quite like 15rds. of 10mm or 10rds. in the carry version. With the loads max'd out for the 180gr. and 200gr. XTP loads, I usually get numbers a little better than the factory box numbers in the G29. So just right. In the G20 though, those are smoking. They definitely benefit from stronger recoil springs. I'd go so far as to say get the stainless rods. The G20 with a stainless rod and 20lb or so spring does great. I do some polishing and may use some factory Glock parts for performance, but the stainless rod, a bunch of different recoil springs, and set of sights are the only aftermarket parts I use on 'em.

As for the Smith and Wesson, I'm looking for a 1006, no doubt about the fact that those old Smiths were tanks. The Smith has the thickest chamber wall, I read, followed by Glock, and then the Delta Elite. The Delta has better chamber support than the Glock, but the walls are thinner. The Smith is just a great pistol, and for a 10mm junkie, a must have.

browncoatdawn
October 1, 2011, 08:34 PM
Thanks again, everyone. I am currently unemployed, and looking for work. Not many people want to work around my schedule with my physical therapy. I will keep plugging away, I want too many trinkets.

The 10mm has been an interest of mine for a long time. My planned G20 setup was 20lb recoil spring, tungsten rod, and frame plug, otherwise, a factory gun with adjustable sights was where I planned to start.

I do plan on eventually getting each of the smith models in 10mm. A former co worker of mine had a 5906 and 4006, and both felt real nice to me, so I planned on making a collection.

The Delta is just a solid, cool gun for factory loads, and I don't feel the need to load past any of the BB, DT or what have you limits. The big 10 is plenty potent for anything I will likely do.

I may use it if I ever figure out how to hunt wild boar, being in a chair, I just am not sure of my options. Only been at this a year, and a 30% chance of walking again is better than nothing. Besides, I'm stubborn.

Anyone here from Iowa by chance? I have this dream of opening a gun shop of my own sometime, which gets me laughed at, but hey, it's my dream.
Any help on that would be welcome also.

This brings up another question, is anyone familiar with Fusion pistols?

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