T.H.R. newbie needs 223 load help


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Aeton DaClam
September 30, 2011, 11:57 PM
Being an FCSA member is great but maybe I can get 223 load info here. I bought a Fulton Armory lower receiver and an M.&A. upper kit with a 16" barrel which shoots great. I then bought a Nikon M-223 with the BDC reticle which is set for a 55 grain Bal. tip @ 3240 FPS. So far the only powder to be hot enough to NOT be compressed AND be < or >3240 is IMR 4198 @ 22.5- 22.8 gr. I have no sign of over pressure (primer cratering) and there is free space in the 22.8 load, anyone chasing this load too? Thanks:confused:

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ArchAngelCD
October 1, 2011, 12:04 AM
25.0gr H335 under a 55gr bullet will get you very close to the velocity you are looking for. it's also a good clean and accurate load for me. H335 meters very well too.

In my bolt action rifle I use a charge of 26.0gr Varget under a 55gr BTHP Sierra GameKing bullet (#1390) with outstanding success.

Welcome to the forum...

capreppy
October 1, 2011, 12:42 AM
+1 on 25.0gr H335 under a 55gr bullet. I'm using that charge with a Hornady 55gr SP. I need to chrono it, but I suspect I'm pretty close to that velocity.

For my weapon, 25.3gr H335 worked best with the 55gr BTHP SGK.

steve4102
October 1, 2011, 06:49 AM
he only powder to be hot enough to NOT be compressed

Why the need for loads that are NOT Compressed? Compressed loads are very common and can be extremely accurate, safe too.

Give Ramshot data a try. X-T and Tac are fine ball powders that meter well and are outstanding in the 223.

http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/ramshot_handgun_rifle.pdf

rfwobbly
October 1, 2011, 08:17 AM
I have no sign of over pressure (primer cratering)....

Be aware that of all the over-pressure signs, primer condition is probably one of the least reliable. This especially considering the wide range of standard small rifle and "mil" primers available for your use. You should consider a chrono.

wanderinwalker
October 1, 2011, 08:32 AM
Being an FCSA member is great but maybe I can get 223 load info here. I bought a Fulton Armory lower receiver and an M.&A. upper kit with a 16" barrel which shoots great. I then bought a Nikon M-223 with the BDC reticle which is set for a 55 grain Bal. tip @ 3240 FPS. So far the only powder to be hot enough to NOT be compressed AND be < or >3240 is IMR 4198 @ 22.5- 22.8 gr. I have no sign of over pressure (primer cratering) and there is free space in the 22.8 load, anyone chasing this load too?

Just so you're aware, you're probably not going to hit 3240-fps with your 16" barrel. Probably something in the 2850-3000 range, but you lose quite a bit of performance with the carbine-length barrels.

As for .223 powders, I've always had good luck with Winchester 748, H4895, RL-15 and Varget. For the lighter bullets, I'd focus my efforts with 748 and 4895, though I read and hear H335(?) works well also.

243winxb
October 1, 2011, 11:02 AM
+1 Just so you're aware, you're probably not going to hit 3240-fps with your 16" barrel. Why Are My .223 Loads So Much Slower Than The Chart? Link below http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464000

guzzi
October 1, 2011, 11:49 AM
Recently on a hot day, I clocked some 55 grain Hornady BT spire points, at 3,458fps with an extreme spread of 36 fps. Using 24 grains of H335. This was through a LMT 16 inch barrel.

This is not a compressed load, and is very accurate. It's actually my standard blasting load for out to 300 yards.

rcmodel
October 1, 2011, 11:58 AM
AND be < or >3240 is IMR 4198 @ 22.5- 22.8 gr.That right there is 1.0 to 1.8 OVER MAX according to Hodgdon data.

And I agree that there are several powders better suited to the AR-15's gas system pressure curve that will give better velocity with less pressure then IMR-4198.

I'd seriously reconsider not only your choice of powder, but also how much of it you are using!

rc

Aeton DaClam
October 1, 2011, 12:45 PM
Got the chrony and @ last loading with IMR 4198 got 21.5 = 2936,22.0= 3063, 22.3=3115. 16" match stainless. I was caught between H 335 and IMR 4198. Tried my 308's IMR 4064 @ 25 grains but it was'nt even close. I want to match the spec info on the factory 223 but can't find what length barrel they got 3240 from. Thanks for the flood of comments!:what:

rcmodel
October 1, 2011, 12:51 PM
they got 3240 from?It wasn't a 16" barrel I betcha!
More then likely the standard M16/AR-15 rifle length 20" barrel.

I really don't understand why Nikon used that reticule setting.
Considering 90% of the AR's sold are probably 16" carbines.
And a higher percentage then that are shooting FMJ-BT at 2,800, not Ballistic-Tip at 3,240.
It sounds good in scope advertising though.

Anyway:
Federal XM193 5.56 NATO gets 3,244 in a 20" and 3,111 in a 16"
U.S. GI WWC 87 5.56 NATO gets 3,204 & 3,117.

At any rate, in order to get 3,240 out of a 16" barrel, you are going to have to run pressure right on the Bleeding Foreskin of loose primers and potential blown cases!

I wouldn't try it.

rc

ranger335v
October 1, 2011, 10:52 PM
"primer condition is probably one of the least reliable."

I say primers are THE least reliable indication of over pressure. But it seems they are the first thing those with marginal - or less - valid reloading experience depend on. ??

Aeton DaClam
October 2, 2011, 10:38 AM
Does anyone have a link to a 223/55 grain/barrel length chart ? If 16" can't safly push a bal. tip to 3240 then I'll take the 16" load and just componsate. You know having a short barrel leads to compensation anyhow:evil:Thanks.

Aeton DaClam
October 2, 2011, 10:41 AM
What other reliable indicators would show over pressure signs besides immediate or eventual failure?

rcmodel
October 2, 2011, 12:34 PM
* Empty cases ejecting into the next county compared to factory loads.
(Not a reliable indicator with IMR-4198 as it is too fast a powder for the gas system from the get-go)

* Case head extruding into the bolt-face ejector plunger hole, and leaving a round shiny smear mark on the case head.

* Loose primer pockets after the first or second loading.

* Case headstamp markings going south after the first couple of loadings.

* Getting 3,240 FPS, measured over a chronograph, with a 16" barrel. :D

rc

243winxb
October 2, 2011, 12:44 PM
Does anyone have a link to a 223/55 grain/barrel length chart ? See link in post #7. Then click this link also > http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html

788Ham
October 3, 2011, 02:00 PM
Aeton DeClam,

From reading this thread, it sounds as if you're trying to get "vaporizing" rounds out of something you shouldn't! rcmodel has posted many things in reloading, has a vast knowledge of these things, has posted many more items on threads about various firearms, again, his vast knowledge comes into play. You seem hell bent on doing things your way after asking these questions and the advice is given, do you have a death wish? rc has nothing to gain by giving you the advice you ask for, take heed to the things he's telling you....... unless you have more eyes and fingers than the rest of us were given!

steve4102
October 3, 2011, 05:35 PM
What other reliable indicators would show over pressure signs

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/steve4102/Grendelbrass.jpg

Aeton DaClam
October 3, 2011, 06:46 PM
Steve4102, I took a look at all my Mil. once fired 223 brass, even the stuff I have'nt loaded and found your flow marks on some of the bases. FC,Winchester, RP,most LC and WCC look ok but Nato WCC and a few others show ejector pocket marks.. 3115 fps seems to be a common speed for a 16" barrel.

788Ham
October 3, 2011, 11:38 PM
Other than the flattened primers, its plain to see the cases being slammed into the bolt face, leaving bad impressions on the base of the brass. That in itself is a very bad sign of pressure spikes. How were the primer pockets when you went to reload? Unless the chamber is oversized, and all of the brass look this way, still too much chamber pressure. IMHO

Aeton DaClam
October 4, 2011, 08:26 PM
well mind you I am working alot of military once fired and all got a FL sizing. The primer pockets "tension" varied some but upon looking with a 10 power loupe at the ones I loaded above 21.5, a gold ring showed at the neck/shoulder point on the loads , that AND a circular mark running all the way around the primer pocket.The marks are down into the WCC 94 stamp so my 4198 load could be around 20.0- 20.5 (2796-2936). Someone I'm sure somone has worked out a starting point for IMR 4198, I just have'nt found a source for loads for 16" ARs with 55 gr blitzkings.

mjsdwash
October 6, 2011, 03:47 AM
I see alot of people saying 55grn bullet 25.0 of 335, and out of a 16' 1in9, that will give you about 2900-2950 from the majority of brass. The lyman books say you can go upto 27 grains, i do 26.2 for 3200 fps from a 16' 1 in 9. No signs of pressure using federal or winchester standard srp's even at 27. But thats lyman, I know the bottle says stop around 25.3 IIRC. Ive found its pretty hard to get nato speed with standard powders. These numbers were shot 4 feet over a shooters chrony.

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