Ammo for Ruger New Vaquero 45 Colt with 4 3/4" barrel


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Balrog
October 1, 2011, 09:05 PM
What 45 Colt ammo or handload shoots to point of aim? Specifically, I am trying to determine if the factory fixed sights are designed for a cowboy load (ie, 250g at 750 fps) or a more standard load (ie, 250g at 850 fps).

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Tallinar
October 1, 2011, 10:34 PM
5.4gr of Trailboss with a 250gr RNFP shoots about POA in my 7.5 inch New Vaquero at cowboy shoot ranges and burns pretty clean. This is what I settled on as my standard cowboy load.

At the same ranges and with the same bullet, I find 8.0gr of Unique also to shoot POA.

Good luck to ya.

BCCL
October 1, 2011, 11:01 PM
I've had good luck with both Winchester and Ultramax 250gr RNFP "Cowboy Action" loads with my 45 Vaquero.

Byron
October 2, 2011, 08:02 PM
Using the Speer #10 manual, the data using 231 and the LSWC bullet gives factory specs.The accuracy is good at 15 yards. 15 is a good distance for these aging eyes.

CraigC
October 2, 2011, 10:56 PM
They make them with an extra tall front sight so that they can be properly regulated with the desired load.

Balrog
October 2, 2011, 11:32 PM
They make them with an extra tall front sight so that they can be properly regulated with the desired load.

While that statement is true, it doesnt answer the question.

CraigC
October 2, 2011, 11:56 PM
It does answer your question. The sights are not "designed for a cowboy load (ie, 250g at 750 fps) or a more standard load". They are not "designed" for any load. They are made extra tall so that they may be regulated. It wouldn't matter anyway because different shooters will often shoot the same load to a different point of impact.

Are you always this argumentative???

MachIVshooter
October 3, 2011, 12:09 AM
You mean you actually aim yours? What fun is that?

On a serious note, as CraigC said, that's why the front blades are tall. See where the bullet hits, compensate accordingly.

Red Cent
October 3, 2011, 04:11 PM
You guys are hurting my hand.

4.2 grs of American Select with a 165 gr lrnfp.

Talk about low recoil, fast recovery.

I had to take over one half off the front sights of a pair of Colts to hit POA at 60 feet.

Now if you wanna hurt someone better listen to the other guys :).

Balrog
October 4, 2011, 01:12 AM
It does answer your question. The sights are not "designed for a cowboy load (ie, 250g at 750 fps) or a more standard load". They are not "designed" for any load. They are made extra tall so that they may be regulated. It wouldn't matter anyway because different shooters will often shoot the same load to a different point of impact.

Are you always this argumentative???

No, but I dont think you are entirely correct either. Of the vast majority of single action pistols I have seen, most will hit to point of aim without filing off the sight. Sure some need to be filed, but not most. In fact, I bet that less than 10 percent of front sights ever get filed at all. That means that most are hitting close to aim. I want to know with what loads.

I reload, and can make a bullet impact pretty much anwhere within about 12 inches on a 50 foot target by varying bullet weight and powder charge.

BCRider
October 4, 2011, 01:29 AM
If they are being faithful to the original guns of the old west then the front sight should be just right for a moderately compressed charge of honest to gosh black powder behind whatever the classic bullet weight was for the time. All the rest of our loads are compromises and wannabees.... :D

Modern cowboys that shoot CAS are cheap and value light recoil so they mostly use 200gn bullets with loads suitable for 700 to 750 fps. Less lead per round means lower cost per round. And the serious "out to win" folks would hold the muzzle velocity down to lower than 700 fps. Such slow loads will let the bullet hit higher but maybe not as high as the front sight is aimed.

I know this isn't a direct answer either. But it does make me wonder why it matters. You should know what sort of power and weight you want to shoot so why not just figure this out and file to suit? If you're not interested in shooting some oddball cowboy light load or "proper" black powder loads tha happen to work with the sight as is what good does it do you?

CraigC
October 4, 2011, 01:48 AM
No, but I dont think you are entirely correct either.
You're right, I only have two dozen single action revolvers. I only have nearly every book ever written on the subject. What could I possibly know???

Balrog
October 4, 2011, 02:47 AM
Now look who is argumentative. I don't doubt you know a lot about single actions, but I wasnt asking about single actions, I was asking about specific loads. So unless your library goes into load data, it won't be helpful. While I appreciate you trying to help, you aren't really answering what I was asking. I was asking what handload shoots to point of aim for an unaltered 4 3/4" barrel New Vaquero. I know there is a load that will do that, as I have made loads in the past that would shoot to point of aim without filing off the front sight. I have done this with Colt SAA in 45 Colt and 32-20, but it was for 5 1/2 and 7" barrels.

I know why they made the front sight high. Its to allow people stuck using factory ammo to be able to shoot to point of aim. But why would I want to alter the gun permanently when I can make a load that will shoot to point of aim without altering it?

You telling me to file off the front sight would kind of be like telling me to cut off 4 inches of barrel on a 308 if I want my bullets to go 100 fps slower. Yea, it would work, but why not just put less powder in the case and not alter the gun?

1911Tuner
October 4, 2011, 05:28 AM
Before this one goes too far south...

Craig is saying that the front sight is tall to allow tuning to a specific load. The logic behind it is that we work for accuracy, and then adjust the gun to put'em where we want'em. He's not saying that's the only option...but just another tool in the box. The choice is yours.

One problem with "just using less powder" is that very often, too much airspace in the case results in buckshot patterns instead of groups and there's really no way to tell if the gun is shootin' where it looks because it might shoot 3 inches high for one shot...and 3 inches low on the next...and the dispersal could also sideways.

My pair of New Vaqueros both shoot to point of aim at 25 yards with a cast 250-grain bullet...RNFP or SWC...with 8.5 grains of Unique and 9 grains doesn't seem to make any practical difference. Of course, this isn't a typical "Cowboy" load as recoil is fairly sharp. Not at all unmanageable...but still a bit more lively than most CAS competitors like.

snooperman
October 4, 2011, 07:41 AM
trying to get your single action to shoot to point of aim with factory ammo, unless you are willing to adjust the sights. I reload for all my single actions, now 18 in all. Factory ammo will sometimes vary with different lots made and different powders used too.

snooperman
October 4, 2011, 07:50 AM
flatnose bullet going fast enough for point of aim at 25 yards in your New Vaguero 45.

Balrog
October 4, 2011, 08:27 AM
One problem with "just using less powder" is that very often, too much airspace in the case results in buckshot patterns instead of groups and there's really no way to tell if the gun is shootin' where it looks because it might shoot 3 inches high for one shot...and 3 inches low on the next...and the dispersal could also sideways.

Thats true if we are talking about huge differences in powder charge, but a 100 fps change in velocity doesnt require much of a powder difference. And if you are making really light loads, you can use Trail Boss which is fluffier.

CraigC
October 4, 2011, 08:40 AM
Because you don't tailor your loads to your sights. You tailor your sights to your chosen load. You find the load that provides the velocity and accuracy with the bullet you want to use and adjust accordingly. I AM answering your question, it's just not what you want to hear. If you're gonna argue with every answer, why ask the question in the first place???

If you just want to find a load that shoots close to point of aim, like I said, they don't "design" (which is what YOU asked!!!) it to shoot a certain load to POA. Why? Because there are too many variables and like I said before, WE ALL SHOOT DIFFERENT LOADS DIFFERENTLY! So you'll have to find out for yourself.

For a given velocity, heavier bullets will print higher.

For a given bullet weight, lower velocities will print higher.

Do you want me to shoot it for you too??? :rolleyes:

snooperman
October 4, 2011, 09:01 AM
I find that what he said above is what I have learned on my own the past 50 years of reloadind ang shooting single action guns.

Balrog
October 4, 2011, 09:46 AM
Because you don't tailor your loads to your sights. You tailor your sights to your chosen load. You find the load that provides the velocity and accuracy with the bullet you want to use and adjust accordingly. I AM answering your question, it's just not what you want to hear. If you're gonna argue with every answer, why ask the question in the first place???

If you just want to find a load that shoots close to point of aim, like I said, they don't "design" (which is what YOU asked!!!) it to shoot a certain load to POA. Why? Because there are too many variables and like I said before, WE ALL SHOOT DIFFERENT LOADS DIFFERENTLY! So you'll have to find out for yourself.

For a given velocity, heavier bullets will print higher.

For a given bullet weight, lower velocities will print higher.

Do you want me to shoot it for you too???

Craig, just don't worry about it. Others have answered the question, and my front sight will remain unaltered. Didn't mean to insult you or hurt your feelings. For fixed sighted guns, I generally do tailor handloads to the sights. I guess I didnt make it clear, I was looking for load data, and probably should have posted in the reloading forum instead! You are right about the differences in point of impact with velocity and bullet weight, and that was the angle I was coming from, just wanted specific data.

CraigC
October 4, 2011, 10:26 AM
I thought I was hard-headed. You want what no one can give you.

No, my feelings aren't hurt. I'm not a 13yr old girl.

1911Tuner
October 4, 2011, 10:40 AM
*sigh*

Balrog
October 4, 2011, 10:46 AM
You want what no one can give you

Why are you saying that? Several people replied with loads that shoot to point of aim in their guns, without front site modifications.

CraigC
October 4, 2011, 10:56 AM
Because....."...there are too many variables and like I said before, WE ALL SHOOT DIFFERENT LOADS DIFFERENTLY! So you'll have to find out for yourself."

No one can predict what any load will do in any gun. A wise man (John Taffin) once said that "every sixgun is a law unto itself". There is no way in hell for anybody to give you data for a load that will shoot to point of aim in YOUR gun with YOU shooting it. Any more than one could give you data for the load that will shoot the most accurately. I really don't know how much more clear I can be on this.

Balrog
October 4, 2011, 11:10 AM
I was just looking for a starting point, and to see what had worked for other people. Friendly discussion with others who have tweaked specific loads to specific guns.

BCCL
October 4, 2011, 05:51 PM
There is no way in hell for anybody to give you data for a load that will shoot to point of aim in YOUR gun with YOU shooting it.

And there it is in a nutshell.

No two people hold a gun exactly the same, no two guns are exactly the same (even massed produced ones) so it's often impossible to take a loading tailored for person A and his gun, and have it shoot exactly to POA in Person B's gun. (Heck, it often won't shoot exactly to the same POA in Person A's gun, with Person B shooting it.)

Balrog
October 4, 2011, 09:10 PM
Why are fixed sighted single action revolvers the only fixed sighted guns that have to have their front sights filed down to get ammo to shoot to point of aim? For example, 1911s, Glocks, and S&W revolvers with fixed sights will generally shoot to point of aim with factory ammo. What is different with single actions?

BCCL
October 4, 2011, 09:26 PM
I've seen models of every one you just listed need their sights regulated to get the best accuracy from a particular load, for a particular shooter.

And how many Glock's and 1911's have you ever seen with totally "fixed sights"? Every model I've ever owned had sights that could be drifted for windage, and different height front sights could be installed.

Balrog
October 4, 2011, 09:44 PM
Would you say most of those guns have to have the front sight adjusted?
Also, I am really talking about elevation adjustments when I say fixed sights, not windage.

CraigC
October 4, 2011, 11:18 PM
Because subtle differences in how you grip a single action can cause significant changes in point of impact. Single actions are much more susceptible than any other handgun type.

Also, revolvers can utilize a broad range of loads. Autos have a much less varied range of loads they can utilize and still function properly. Most folks just pick one load and adjust their point of aim accordingly. Revolver shooters are much more likely to experiment with different bullets, weights and velocities.

BCCL
October 5, 2011, 08:53 AM
Would you say most of those guns have to have the front sight adjusted?

Depends on how close to true POA that any one shooter wants to get with a particular load.

In my experience, a lot of guns actually do need it, but most shooters don't want to go to the trouble, so they shoot a bunch of different ammo, find one that hits closest to POA (for them) and then learn to adjust their aim.

But folks that really want their gun and "pet" load to be on true POA, often make small adjustments to the sights, i.e. filing down a front sight, having a front sight made taller, filing down either side of a front sight blade to adjust for windage, or filing a little off the inside of the rear sight notch to do the same.

It also has a lot to do with if a person wants a gun and load, regulated for them specifically and for precise target shooting, or a gun that's sights are "good enough" across a range of different shooters at close SD range shooting.

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