[Brass Fetcher]

Test report of 380ACP JHPs :

Winchester 95gr Ranger-T
Remington 102gr Golden Saber
RBCD 45gr TF/SP
Federal 90gr Hydra-Shok
Double Tap 90gr Gold Dot

Versus bone simulant plate and ballistic gelatin.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=150366&stc=1&d=1317877543

[RinkRat]

when I can't carry something bigger because of how I'm dressed my LCP is staggered with "just in case" in this order of rotation Winchester 95gr Ranger-T's and WWB FMJ-flat nose and I do feel comfortable with that combination with as they say < proper placement of shoots delivered > because if you *do not do your part* any size caliber bigger or smaller will not do theirs ... YMMV

[kokapelli]

Test report of 380ACP JHPs :

Winchester 95gr Ranger-T
Remington 102gr Golden Saber
RBCD 45gr TF/SP
Federal 90gr Hydra-Shok
Double Tap 90gr Gold Dot

Versus bone simulant plate and ballistic gelatin.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=150366&stc=1&d=1317877543
Thanks, that just reinforces my decision to carry fmj in my 380 pistols.

[bds]

Thanks for the report.
Summary:
The wounding mechanism of a jacketed hollowpoint is the crushing of tissue through bullet expansion. Failing this, the lethality of a JHP is oftentimes lower than a full metal jacket which wounds through tumbling. FMJ bullet shapes lend themselves more readily to tumbling than a JHP that failed to expand – though many of the unexpanded JHPs did tumble, it was far too deep into the track to have influenced the lethality of the bullet to any extent.

Generally speaking, the expansion of the four conventional bullets tested was unreliable and inadequate after impact with the bone simulant plate and gelatin while the wounding efficiency of the RBCD is questionable due to its expanded surface area being very similar to that of a 380ACP FMJ.


From the report - "Shows a ‘head-on’ view of the human weapon system. Note the size of heart relative to the rib cage and sternum."

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=150385&stc=1&d=1317911777

[Skribs]

The way I see it, a clogged HP works like an FMJ. So I just carry HPs and figure that if I aim COM and hit bone, it will hit important stuff in the chest anyway.

[Fastcast]

The way I see it, a clogged HP works like an FMJ. So I just carry HPs and figure that if I aim COM and hit bone, it will hit important stuff in the chest anyway.

Apparently, you missed part of the report. His observation seems to be that FMJ usually appears to be more lethal than HPs that don't expand.

JE223, thanks for the report!....Have you observed Truncated FMJ .380 with the bone plate and if so what's your observation of its performance?

[MICHAEL T]

Test with the DPX I bet it will work That copper bullet just acts way different.
I shot thru thin lexan and in to water jugs it opened

[LCPor9mm]

Is it just me or did the report say Hornady 110 grn instead of RBCD 45 grn???
That might make a difference!

[Brass Fetcher]

That would make a difference ... :) ... thank you for the heads-up on the typo.

Revised report :

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=150392&d=1317925307

John

[Brass Fetcher]

FMJs typically will tumble/angle of attack significantly, toward the end of the depth of interest. This isn't nearly as good as a FMJ that is designed to tumble, but still better than a clogged JHP that may not tumble at all.

[Tomac]

CorBon's DPX is the only JHP I'd consider instead of FMJ (YMMV).
Tomac

[LCPor9mm]

This isn't nearly as good as a FMJ that is designed to tumble, but still better than a clogged JHP that may not tumble at all.

I was wondering about that. How difficult would it be to design a bullet to spin (end over end) upon impact rather than expand? If it were possible wouldn't that be the perfect SD round?

[heeler]

Glad I have several hundred rounds of WWB 95 gr. fmj.
They get decent penetration,feed super reliably in the LCP and Diamondback 380,and can be found generally fairly cheaply at thousands of Wal-Marts daily in boxes of 100 count.
I will save the expensive hollow points for the PM9.

[Brass Fetcher]

I was wondering about that. How difficult would it be to design a bullet to spin (end over end) upon impact rather than expand? If it were possible wouldn't that be the perfect SD round?

It's not easy to do, because it requires some prototyping and iteration. But the key is to keep your bullets 'center of pressure' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_pressure far fore of the bullets center of mass.

Here are two examples of bullets that were designed to tumble effectively:

FN SS-195 (5.7x28mm) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpnnh-0YEbk

Fiocchi 100gr FMJTC (9x18mm Police) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXTNynOFpLk

[FruitCake]

I only use FMJ in 380 and 32. Too many mixed results, in 32 a hollow point seems reatarded unless your on the beach and any attacker is not wearing a shirt. In all my bugs all I use is FMJ because they work. Flatnose

[LCPor9mm]

It's not easy to do, because it requires some prototyping and iteration. But the key is to keep your bullets 'center of pressure' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_pressure far fore of the bullets center of mass.

I guess if there were an easy way to induce it mechanically the cartridge manufacturers would have stumbled across it while developing the expanding SD rounds.

[gofastman]

WHAT? no XTP or DPX?

[AJChenMPH]

Thanks for posting the report...by any chance, did you record how deeply they penetrated after hitting the plate? I don't recall seeing it in the report...

[Brass Fetcher]

I guess if there were an easy way to induce it mechanically the cartridge manufacturers would have stumbled across it while developing the expanding SD rounds.

I think it's more a matter of marketing/return on investment. Most people won't believe that tumbling pistol bullets (properly designed, to hurt people) can be as or more effective than conventional JHPs. Imagine your defensive bullets costing as much as your FMJ ammo ... you could quite reasonably train with what you are going to fight, for no extra cost.

Thanks for posting the report...by any chance, did you record how deeply they penetrated after hitting the plate? I don't recall seeing it in the report...

The penetration depth is in there... Table 1 near the bottom.

John

[LCPor9mm]

That would be ashamed...NOT! Another way to look at it from a marketing point of view, it would give a manufacturer a cost advantage and possibly instant market share. I would love to pratice with my carry ammo...but I don't because it's too expensive.

[97guns]

what do you guys think about a 95 grain JSP 9mm load spec'd at 1350FPS coming out of a duty length gun as a carry load?

i have a case of this stuff

[kokapelli]

what do you guys think about a 95 grain JSP 9mm load spec'd at 1350FPS coming out of a duty length gun as a carry load?

i have a case of this stuff
Is it Hirtenberger? If it is, it's superb ammo.

I have a bunch of Hirtenberger 100gr +P+ flat point soft nose that I shoot out of my Kahr K9.

I don't remember the exact velocity but a guy at the range ran it through his chronograph and I remember it was well over 1500fps from the K9.

[LCPor9mm]

WOW! 1500+ 100 gr. Is the ME comparable to the 124 nato?

[97guns]

no this is federal, picked it up from cheaper than dirt it was an overrun for the taiwan police and the illinois state police used it for a little while untill it underperformed.

[Brass Fetcher]

the illinois state police used it for a little while untill it underperformed. should read "someone decided that it wasn't what they expected and the idea spread through the mechanism of nodding heads" ... ;)

WOW! 1500+ 100 gr. Is the ME comparable to the 124 nato?

I worked extensively with M882 and couldn't seem to get more than 1250 ft/sec out of my 4" Mann barrel, so KE there was 430 ft-lbf. But remember that M882 is loaded very hot for a 9x19mm.

Those figures for the 100gr bullet at 1500 ft/sec come out to 500 ft-lbf of KE.

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

I have a few questions regarding this theory: Why were the rounds only tested through a P238? What about testing the same rounds through a pistol with a longer barrel? Are we to believe that barrel length has no effect on the total performance of the .380acp round? Are we to believe that this testing was only limited to .380 pocket pistols?

Therefore, I don't believe their testing to be complete without testing the rounds through a longer barreled pistol.

[kokapelli]

I have a few questions regarding this theory: Why were the rounds only tested through a P238? What about testing the same rounds through a pistol with a longer barrel? Are we to believe that barrel length has no effect on the total performance of the .380acp round? Are we to believe that this testing was only limited to .380 pocket pistols?

Therefore, I don't believe their testing to be complete without testing the rounds through a longer barreled pistol.
It would be my guess that by far most 380 pistols carried these days are of the pocket variety with barrels under 3".

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Maybe so K, but I'd still like to see the same tests using something like a Bersa Thunder380 or something similar.

[kokapelli]

Maybe so K, but I'd still like to see the same tests using something like a Bersa Thunder380 or something similar.
I can offer this website that might have some good info for you.
http://bersachapterhouse.110mb.com/cartridges.html

[Brass Fetcher]

I have a few questions regarding this theory: Why were the rounds only tested through a P238? What about testing the same rounds through a pistol with a longer barrel? Are we to believe that barrel length has no effect on the total performance of the .380acp round? Are we to believe that this testing was only limited to .380 pocket pistols?

You should limit your expectations to the impact velocities presented in the report. Anything else is extrapolation ... unless of course you would like to fund a repeat of the test with a longer barrel 380ACP. Then the reality of that situation would become more certain.

That would be ashamed...NOT! Another way to look at it from a marketing point of view, it would give a manufacturer a cost advantage and possibly instant market share. I would love to pratice with my carry ammo...but I don't because it's too expensive.

One other thing that would be ideal about using FMJs that were designed to hurt people vs JHPs for self-defense is that tumbling FMJs would not be effected by the bone simulant and likely real bone as well. Heavy clothing would not be an issue and the rounds would present a limited down-range hazard after passing though a solid object like an interior wall.

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Thanks for the info K. I appreciated it.

No thanks J. I don't have the funds to get my Thunder 380 repaired right now much less pay for new testing. :D

[AJChenMPH]

The penetration depth is in there... Table 1 near the bottom.
Gah...time to ask the Air Force for a refund. (I had the Air Force do PRK on my eyes two years ago.) Thanks, and sorry about that.

Looking at this again...can you explain why it says "RCBD 45gr TF/SP" and yet right underneath it says "Hornady 110gr FTX"? This is where Figure 11-14 is.

Thanks...

[distra]

Interesting study however, I did not see any wound cavity measurements presented here. It would be interesting to see FMJ data along side these data as the report narrative indicates the JHP don't "tumble" as much a FMJ. It would be nice to see that data as well. As for lethality, what values are used to correlate lethality with FMJ and JHP bullets? According to the FBI study, penetration and permanent cavity are the most correlated to lethality. Ultimately a CoM shot is designed to cause hydrostatic failure, 20"+ of penetration by the JHP round would clearly indicate a high potential for lethal interaction with vital organs. While bullet expansion can increase wound cavity, just because the round does not expand does not make it less lethal.

[lobo9er]

Maybe so K, but I'd still like to see the same tests using something like a Bersa Thunder380 or something similar.


buy some ballistic gel and see how things work out.

[tater_42]

This is a great report. In the summary you say "the wounding efficiency of the RBCD is questionable...similar to that of a 380ACP FMJ", I was wondering what the benefits of RBCD are then? Its exspensive right?

[Friendly, Don't Fire!]

Excellent, professional write-up!

[barnetmill]

One of things that is needed make a judgement are the actual measured velocities of FMJ versus designed expanding bullets. Expanding loads are usually loaded to the max. This is not always true of FMJ that is often loaded to lower velocity. The ideal would be someway of taking the HP loads and defeating its ability to expand. They would likely tumble and you would have the best performance possible for the .380. I usually opt out for european FMJ loaded .380 ammo since if often is listed as a little hotter than american FMJ. I have not actually measured it and so can not be absolutely sure.