[Warp]

I think that I have about had it with the Winchester Ranger line of ammunition.

Strike One:
I ordered a case of RA9B (9mm 147gr bonded) a few years ago from OMB Express. This was during the ammunition buying craze when very little was generally available.
I wouldn't have gone with RA9B if not for the price and availability during that time.

Every round from that case is FUBAR. We had discussions about it on Glock Talk at the time and the end result seemed to be everybody said it was acceptable and
nobody would take returns or exchanges or otherwise fix the problem.
I refuse to load it defensively because it is FUBAR, IMO, which basically made for an expensive case of practice ammo/general JHP feed testing ammo.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/52f71f8f.jpg

The top row is the first 4 rounds I pulled from a regular box. The bottom row is the first 4 rounds from a random box from the 'FUBAR' case.
They all look at least that bad, if not worse.

You cannot tell me the row on the bottom meet any kind of QC standard for bet-your-life ammunition.
Coincidentally as a result of this plus another problem I had with them I refuse to do business with OMB Express.


Strike Two
I bought a Glock 30SF this spring. It was my first/only .45. I bought RA45T (.45 auto 230gr talon) as my initial choice in JHP ammunition. The RA45T failed miserably in the 30SF.
I blame the 30SF, but then HST +P failed once in 100 rounds and the RA45T failed once in every 10-15 rounds. Also, I came across this round fresh out of the box:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/9914406a.jpg


Strike Three
I ordered a few boxes of RA9TA (9mm 127gr talon +P+) from mahsupplies around a couple of months ago.
I took the first box of it out with my Glock 26 yesterday and I loaded this round without noticing (good reminder to inspect every single round you load for
actual potential defensive use!) it until it failed to fire:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g105/austin3161324/5565cf87.jpg

It is more disfigured than I can get the image to convey. I am surprised I loaded it at the range without noticing.
The gun partially chambered it. The slide appeared to be forward and the trigger reset but it was not completely in battery and of course would not fire.



What is going on here? How do we get entire cases/an entire batch/whatever it was of RA9B that looks like that? And it is supposedly okay?

Am I just that unlucky that out of the last 3 boxes of Ranger Talon I have fired I came across two totally FUBAR rounds in two different calibers?

I have always preferred Gold Dot. I have fired more of them than any other JHP in my years of shooting. The more these things happen the more and more I strongly prefer Gold Dot.


Has anybody else experienced anything similar?

[CoRoMo]

Holy-freaking-cow man.

[FuzzyBunny]

I agree!

Write Winchester and send them pics.
It is such a huge liability issue for them I'll bet they will swap you out.

If the cases and bullets are so bad can you trust the powder?
I think not.

[wildman5759]

I have a half dozen boxes of the ammo in your first picture and mine look pretty much the same. I have a few rounds that the cavity is half full of lead. QC is pretty crappy lately with these. I have 5 or six boxes of .40 cal bonded that are similar as well. I went back to Speer, although none of the Winchester ammo has failed on me (yet).

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

They must be hiring straight from Century Arms.

This is why I try to avoid Winchester. Unfortunately When I go get Remington, they are usually sold out and I have to get WWB for plinking. I trust my life to Remington Bulk JHP.

[kd7nqb]

wow thats goofy, send this to Winchester.

[Gottahaveone]

....and I loaded this round without noticing (good reminder to inspect every single round you load for actual potential defensive use!)

I know I'm a bit anal but on carry ammo I not only do a visual, if the ammo is for a semi auto I take the barrel out and drop each and every round into the chamber to check for fit before I'll load it into a carried magazine. For a revolver I actually load the "spare" ammo in the cylinder and verify it closes and turns freely before it goes into the speed strips. And I do the same with the original carry cylinder full.

It takes a little time and effort, but I feel my backside is well worth it :)

[Kingofthehill]

YIKES!...

Although I am pretty devoted to Corbon and Gold Dots (due to my own personal ballistic testing trying 11 popular brands), I am really shocked to see so many problems with the Winchester stuff.

I certainly wouldn't trust my life with those.

[W L Johnson]

Wonder if we're starting to see counterfeit ammo?

[SSN Vet]

thanks for reminding me why I roll my own :)

[NYH1]

I thought Winchester ammo was supposed to be pretty good ammo? Obviously not.

NYH1! :eek:

[Strykervet]

Wonder if they sell "factory seconds" and this is where they come from.

This thread really concerned me, since I carry these in .40 and my wife in 9mm. I also use them in .45 for a bedside pistol. Note I get all these from the same place and they also sell to police around here. I don't know if Winchester does factory seconds, but those sure look like seconds in the picture.

So I pulled them out and looked at them. I have RA911HP+, RA9124TP, RA40TA, and RA45TP. I also have an old box of 147gr. 9mm Black Talon. All LE boxes.

With the exception of a few that have slightly flatter crenelated noses, they are all fine. I measured some of the .40's, and every one was within .002 of 1.090" COL, except the ones with flatter crenelated noses. Those measured about 1.070. It looks like one of their seating dies needs to be cleaned or checked, but the rounds all look fine.

I shot some last time I went to the range, and they worked great in 9mm and .40, I didn't take the .45. The deviation in velocity was pretty low too, but I can't find my numbers off hand.

I don't know, it could be a coincidence. I appear to be the only person on here that has had a problem with Midway. But if I got three boxes like that, I'd stop using it too.

I tend to load for everything, and I load 10mm carry rounds since you can't find a good load in 10mm --they are all either too light or too heavy for carry. But 10mm is forgiving if you load within book specifications. Not so with .40 and +P loads, so I use these Winchester loads for carry and only load range ammo for these three. I got these loads because I had heard they were the best there are out there for carry.

I didn't turn up anything like this on the internet when I was shopping for defense loads, so it makes me wonder where the people you got it from got it from, and if seconds exist. I'm gonna follow this thread, I'd like to see you contact Winchester and see what they say after you send these pictures to them.

[Mac Attack]

Looks like Winchester need to contact their reloading plant in India and give them some additional training because they have some serious QC issues.

I'm joking, but that is just not acceptable QC.

[Strykervet]

Wonder if we're starting to see counterfeit ammo?
Not likely as you can't get these bullets in components. Much easier to counterfeit Corbon or Hornady or some other maker. Which is why I get mine from a reputable dealer. I can see the Winchester box with all the labels and stuff it comes out of.

But yeah, rolling your own can fix this problem quick. Fun too. But you may run into the problem I did. If you want +P for carry (I want all the advantage I can get) reloading close to pressure maximums is risky at best. With 10mm, not a problem though, since good carry loads are somewhere in the middle. Hotter than .40, but not max loads in 10mm.

Switch to Hornady and you might get better results. The round doesn't expand aggressively, but it has really good penetration and it expands enough. The bullet is insanely accurate, the XTP. So much so, when they made an FMJ target bullet, they made it the same shape as the XTP. They are what I usually use in 10mm, and what I use universally for accuracy. I put 5 out of 7 shots .357 into a sillhouette at 300m with a 140gr. XTP. Pretty nice.

[daorhgih]

Please, sir, do try to make your post match the layout of the text-block allowed
for the post. It makes it much easier to read, for those of us who do not have 24-inch view-screens. Thanks. Otherwise, your point is well taken. DAO

[Warp]

The text doesn't wrap automatically?

[SwissArmyDad]

I think it's the picture's size that are making his posts irregular...

[hemiram]

Wow, I've never had that many bad rounds in almost 35 years of shooting. I had some Remington 9mm's that were bad, but they were obviously bad (distorted cases), and would barely go into the magazine. Last bad ones I had were .380 Win white box, about a dozen of them had the bullet set way too deep, and one look at them showed something was seriously wrong with them. The store I bought them at took them back, and gave me a new box and they were fine.

[The Lone Haranguer]

And this is marketed - and priced - as premium ammunition, to defend your life with? :eek::rolleyes: Winchester needs to be sent those pictures.

[BamAlmighty]

This has become a common occurrence with Winchester, no quality control whatsoever.

Over the last year I have purchased approx 20 boxes of .40 PDX1s and EVERY box had at least 2 duds that would have failed, worst box had FIVE. Considering the price and having to bet your life on this ammo I will never buy Winchester ammo again. There is no excuse for the condition of the ammo they are putting out.

[TexasRifleman]

Wonder if we're starting to see counterfeit ammo?

You know that's the first thing I thought too. Where was the ammo purchased?

With ammo prices like they are it's not unimaginable that some scumbag would try to put some junk in a new box and sell it as factory.

[jonmerritt]

Now you know why leo's don't use it.

[Warp]

You know that's the first thing I thought too. Where was the ammo purchased?

With ammo prices like they are it's not unimaginable that some scumbag would try to put some junk in a new box and sell it as factory.

I have complete confidence in the supplier of the RA9TA.

As mentioned the RA9B came from OMB Express, whom I will not do business with anymore as a result of this and another (smaller) issue.

The RA45T came from www.sgammo.com


Now you know why leo's don't use it.

They do.

My local LEA uses RA9T. They have for years and it has done well for them.

[Mike1234567]

This is just another of seemingly endless Winchester QC issues I've read about. I won't buy anything from Winchester until they've resolved them all and have a long track record of "reasonable" reliability.

[Shawn Dodson]

Unless you purchase Ranger ammo directly from an authorized Winchester distributor then you can't be sure of it's pedigree and quality.

Winchester doesn't allow its distributors to sell Ranger ammunition to the general public. If you purchase Ranger ammo from an unauthorized ("questionable") source then you're taking a risk in regard to quality.

[Warp]

Unless you purchase Ranger ammo directly from an authorized Winchester distributor then you can't be sure of it's pedigree and quality.

Winchester doesn't allow its distributors to sell Ranger ammunition to the general public. If you purchase Ranger ammo from an unauthorized ("questionable") source then you're taking a risk in regard to quality.

List of authorized Winchester distributors, please.

Your input on the places I listed, RE: Their status as authorized Winchester distributors, please.

Your response to overruns being offered to the public and dealers who simply choose to skirt around Winchester's policy, please.

[Shawn Dodson]

List of authorized Winchester distributors, please.

Your input on the places I listed, RE: Their status as authorized Winchester distributors, please.

If you didn't have to provide LEO credentials then you obtained your Ranger ammo from an unauthorized source and you take your chances.

Your response to overruns being offered to the public and dealers who simply choose to skirt around Winchester's policy, please.

Overruns? If you didn't have to provide LEO credentials then it's not an "overrun". Winchester DOESN'T "offer" Ranger ammo for sale to the general public.

The ammo may have been sold (surplused) by the original purchasing agency (damaged from mis-handling, damaged from improper storage, etc.). This is what I meant when I said that one CANNOT be sure of its pedigree and quality. Who knows where it came from and why it was dumped on the market?

[MikeNice]

I agree!

Write Winchester and send them pics.
It is such a huge liability issue for them I'll bet they will swap you out.

If the cases and bullets are so bad can you trust the powder?
I think not.
No, you can't trust the powder loads. I've had Winchester Ranger 9mm FMJ rounds that were overloaded. One particular 147gr round nearly KBed my gun. It looked like I was shooting a snubby .357 mag. Not a comforting sight when shooting a mid sized 9mm with a 3.8" barrel.

I have never had an issue with the HP ammo, though. I have ran through several rounds of it and it all worked fine. The cosmetics are ugly, but they all fired and they all expanded in my informal testing. I trust what I have. I will be buying Federal HST, Federal Hydrashock LE, or Gold Dot instead next time.

[Warp]

Are you telling me that not one single retailer who sells Ranger to somebody without LE credentials is an "authorized" seller?

Not even the one that won't sell to me anymore because I am not an officer and they got in trouble, but which still offers it if you can prove that you are a sworn peace officer?

Really? What's what you are saying?

[AK103K]

Ive bought a bunch (20 boxes or so) of both Winchester 127 grain +P+ (RA9TA) and 147 grain (RA9SXT) from SGAmmo over the last couple of years, and they have all been fine. Nothing like what was shown in the pics. I just double checked a number of the boxes after reading this, and nary a scratch or battered bullet, everything looks pristine.


I used to buy a lot of bulk ammo from Streichers until I started getting what looked like old stock or returns. The boxes were all beat up and the ammo (Speer Gold Dots) looked abused. They really had noting to say when I called and asked, just that it was what they had and the next lot in the rotation out the door. They are a police supply, so the I suppose the "return" or "trade in" aspect isnt really a reach.

You might try getting the lot number off the boxes and call Winchester and see what they have to say. They should know where the ammo originally went and what it was. Who knows, maybe it was reject and meant to be sold for components, and ended up in the "unobtainable" supply chain.

[Warp]

I filled out a Contact Us entry on the appropriate section of Winchester's website yesterday. I mentioned that I had the boxes for the RA9TA and RA9B and could provide them with any lot numbers, etc, they desired for any reason.

[MikeNice]

Where is the lot number on your box? I never looked for it on any of my Winchester products.

[JTHunter]

Boy - seeing this makes me glad I load most of my own or the ammo I have is over 5 years old!

[Warp]

Where is the lot number on your box? I never looked for it on any of my Winchester products.

I'm not sure, which is why I told them I could convey what was on the boxes instead of simply telling them. A cursory look didn't show anything that stood out to me.

[Shawn Dodson]

Are you telling me that not one single retailer who sells Ranger to somebody without LE credentials is an "authorized" seller?

Not even the one that won't sell to me anymore because I am not an officer and they got in trouble, but which still offers it if you can prove that you are a sworn peace officer?

Really? What's what you are saying?

Yup.

From Winchester's LE website - Where to buy. Winchester has Law Enforcement Ammunition distributors located throughout the Unites States and Canada for LE sales only.

This has been Winchester's policy since it withdrew Black Talon from the general public in the mid-1990's. Winchester requires LE distributors to enter a legal agreement NOT to sell Ranger to the general public. Don't take my word for it, ask them for yourself - http://winchesterle.com/Pages/ContactUs.aspx

Winchester Law Enforcement website: http://winchesterle.com/Pages/Home.aspx

[Warp]

All that proves is that not all of their distributors honor their policy. We have known this for a long time.

[grubbylabs]

thanks for reminding me why I roll my own

I second that.

[Furncliff]

Until a year ago Winchester White Box was my choice for 9mm and .45acp. Then the crud started to creep in, all kinds of deformities, in nearly every box. It made me think about what I couldn't see.

I have switched to S&B for 9mm and begun reloading .45, Winchester has lost my trust.

[Alex23]

This is worrying and I'd send high res pics to winchester and ask them what is going on. Perhaps they are counterfeits?

I've shot a fair amount of PDX1. Every round looked good and was accurate - for the price it darned better be.

Prefer Hornady though. Can't prove it but I just think they make a better round.

[Shawn Dodson]

All that proves is that not all of their distributors honor their policy. We have known this for a long time.

If anything is to be proved it's that you've purchased poor quality "defense" ammunition that was rejected by somebody for a reason.

Buyer beware.

[Warp]

No such thing has been proven. Conjecture /=/ proof

[Shawn Dodson]

No such thing has been proven. Conjecture /=/ proof

Are YOU not the original poster of the thread titled "Winchester Ranger: Too many QC problems, will no longer purchase **pics**"?

Are YOU not the one complaining about poor quality Winchester Ranger ammo you purchased from questionable sources?

Are YOU not the one who posted photos of poor quality ammo you received from questionable sources to prove your claim?

You're doing yourself a favor in your decision to "no longer purchase".

In addition you've done everybody else a favor in bringing this issue to light!

[Warp]

"Questionable sources" is why I see your matter of fact statement as conjecture.

[MikeNice]

Shawn the Ranger FMJ that nearly blew apart my CZ came from a reputable LE dealer in NC. So did the Ranger Bonded 147gr 9mm that I use. The quality of finish and amount of lead inside the hollow point is inconsistent.

The Bonded hps have performed flawlessly and tested to spec. They definitely aren't pretty though. Is Winchester's QC spotty? I can't say for sure, every company has a few lemons. I just know I'm not using their Ranger fmj ever again. It doesn't matter if it comes from a "reputable" source or not as far as I'm concerned.

[the357plan]

RANGER T-SERIES Lot Numbers are stamped (imprinted without ink) as shown in the red circle on the RANGER T-SERIES flaps. This only done on of the two flaps.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=150546&d=1318212238

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=150548&stc=1&d=1318212269

Most commercial ammo is done as shown below, on the inside of one of the two flaps.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=150547&stc=1&d=1318212269


Personally, I've never had a problem with any Winchester ammunition. Maybe someday, I might. Over the years, I have had problems with Hornady, Remington and Federal. I think problems just go around. I have shipped some (KB'ed on me) back to the manufacture. Lot numbers are important in case the manufacture needs to recall it.

I know better than to order a case of something without first testing a box of it.

Some article (several years ago) from some magazine like G&A or Shooting Times gave me the impression that Winchester was a little more liberal with how they loaded their Ranger Ammo (+P+ or sloppyness, don't know). Evidently, the LE community is less likely to sue Winchester over problems (like battering their guns) than the general public. But as you can see by the pictures, the article didn't stop me from buying it. I'm guessing that what's good for the police is good for me. However, I do switch out with Gold Dots and assorted others from time to time (especially since Ranger T-Series isn't made for 10 mm or 357).

[TriTone]

I've gotten a lot of ranger ammo in .40 at Cabelas before. The boxes were always smashed to hrll but never had a bad round out of thousands.

[Dnaltrop]

I've been burning up a few boxes of the 165's pictured above... I guess I'm just lucky, but the only ugly rounds in my mag are the top two from being tarnished by skin acids.

Seriously ugly rounds you have there... I need to get my dies moving, I've been *mildly* obsessive on the Schofield .45 for the last few months. (Point shooting practice... next up, Hip shooting ;)

My .40 consumption has been extremely loooow, it's just not as "fun" now that my trigger pull is no longer jerking to the left.

Edit... current lot # I'm shooting is...27BK51, picked up at the local gun show about a year ago now, am on my last box.

[AWorthyOpponent]

Ive heard of soo many people having issues with this ammunition.

[essayons21]

Hmm... examples #2 and #3 are certainly damning. When did you purchase those rounds? I heard quite a few tales about how manufacturers were letting QC slip in their desire to churn out maximum quantity during the 2008 ammo craze.

Your first example, while certainly indicating a less than desireable level of QC, is not really terribly concerning. Did the rounds cycle and fire? Was accuracy acceptable? I really don't see the round failing to perform as intended inside a bad guy because of a few extra 1/10ths of a grain of lead.

I have noticed something similar in Federal 230gr Hydroshoks over the years. As they have been the issued round in the local department for almost 2 decades I have seen quite a few different batches. They show similar differences in the amount of visible lead in the hollowppoint, although they are fairly consistent among the box. I am certainly no expert on bullet manufacture, but perhaps the tooling gets dirty over time and is periodically cleaned, resulting in these differences.

I certainly don't blame you for giving up on the company or the line. One bad experience is certainly enough to raise questions about the quality of the tools you use to defend your life. I had a similar situation involving Hornady's Critical Defense .380 ACP, and it has put me off Hornady handgun ammunition ever since. I have used Speer products before and since, and have never had any issues FWIW.

[Warp]

The RA45T was purchased this spring. The RA9TA was purchased a couple months ago.

The first example, the RA9B, has functioned so far. I believe I have fired 250 of the 500. I've had those for at least 3 years.

[Patchbunny]

I filled out a Contact Us entry on the appropriate section of Winchester's website yesterday. I mentioned that I had the boxes for the RA9TA and RA9B and could provide them with any lot numbers, etc, they desired for any reason.

Any word back from Winchester after you contacted them?

[Warp]

I haven't received any emails from them, no. I have checked my spam folder for anything obvious as well

[SGAmmo]

The Ranger Bonded ammo almost always looks kind of rough, spotty and inconsistent due to the bonding process when the projectile is manufactured but performance and function should be well above par. The picture of RA9TA is somewhat bizarre, I've never seen anything like this and I've been selling large volumes of Ranger ammo for years. Sorry to hear I sent you the 45 ammo with one bad round. One should keep in mind with all ammunition that these are mass produced products so one should expect a very small percentage of imperfect ammo in a large sample and one should always visually inspect each round before inserting into a magazine with all ammo. Overall the Ranger line of ammo is one of the finer lines of ammo in my experience but they all have some issue or another from time to time, that is just the nature of the product.

As far as how Ranger ammo gets out to you guys, Its pretty simple. Winchester has an LE/Government sales division and a commercial sales division. Ranger is a product line that is under LE/Government sales and Commercial sales division has precedence over LE and make LE/Government sell to "LE Distributors" who are under contract to sell to LE only. However, the LE wholesalers and Winchester LE division both just want to make money and sell ammo so they really do not care who buys it as long as it gets bought and paid for. The Commercial side gets pissed off when LE ammo gets sold to commercial customers because it cuts into their sales of over-priced PDX1 20 round boxes and other commercial defense loads and they see it as they are losing money because LE/Government sales is intruding on there territory. Its really not hard to get Ranger LE ammo from the wholesalers if they know you, like you and you pay your bills on time, they just want to make money. Almost all of the retailers who acquire ranger ammo do it in this manor,I'm very positive no one is going to try to make or market fake ranger ammo or sell ammo that they know has a significant problem, but once in a while you will find a messed up round in any brand given a large enough sample.

Best Regards

SGAmmo

[huntsman]

I haven't received any emails from them, no. I have checked my spam folder for anything obvious as well
Were all the boxes properly sealed?

[RatherNotSay]

I've always noticed that winchester has a wide base at the bottom of the case. Which results in a lot of FTE. Their lower "walmart" brand especially.

[scrat]

i bought a box of winchester ammo for a 22 it was the worst box i had ever bought all of the bullets were very loose and holding them straight the bullet would sag. i had so many jams with that ammo. i have never bought winchester again. as for all my other guns i reload so i dont have any problem

[Warp]

Thanks for the input SGammo. Don't worry about the bad round I/we know it has nothing to do with you. I've spent over $800 with y'all this year alone and have been very happy with the product, price and service.

[DeepSouth]

About a year ago I bought a box and one of the cases had been folded in during crimping, no way it would chamber in anything. That was the first, and last, box I bought. If something that obvious could get by I'm not going to trust my life with what I can't see.

They were either from Ammo to Go or Ammo Man, don't remember now. They were 45acp's.

[smitty704]

Wow. My pops and I split a box of 50 rds Ranger-T 230g 45ACP, and every round is flawless. I have also seen lots of balistics tests that have proven the round reliable. IMO, I would, and do carry this round when I carry my M&P 45c. Which is about half the time to my g19. I prefer Gold Dot's. I am also curious about the Federal HST round, I have seen great testing as well.

[Warp]

50 rounds isn't much of a sample. For the round you specified, as an example (RA45T) I have fired 200 of them now...and I've only had a .45 since March or so.