Speer data is wimpy!


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gamestalker
October 7, 2011, 09:53 PM
Ever notice how wimpy Speer data is compared to powder and other bullet manufacturer's data?

I loaded some Speer 158 gr. Deep Curl a couple days ago using my standard H110/296 powder charge of 17.5 grs., same thing I've been using for all other jacketed 158's since time began. They chrono @ 1300 fps or so and are no where near over the top. Clean and no high pressures signs what so ever, but a firm crimp is necessary to prevent bullets from jumping up.

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56hawk
October 7, 2011, 10:05 PM
What edition do you have? I just checked mine (number 11) and it lists 17.8 for the max. I've been using the Lyman manuals max of 17.0 in my loads, but I'm shooting lead bullets.

bigedp51
October 7, 2011, 11:17 PM
If you notice the Lyman manuals use universal receivers and 26 inch test barrels, Speer and the other reloading manuals use regular off the shelf firearms. These firearms all vary in chamber and bore size and they all have different max pressures. This is why the manuals say start low and work up with your loads. My uncle and I both had .270 rifles, his Mauser was made in Czechoslovakia and had a tight chamber and bore, there was three grains of powder difference in max loads between these two .270 rifles.

Reloading is like playing Black Jack, stay light and beat the dealer or you gun could go bust. ;)

zxcvbob
October 8, 2011, 12:48 AM
They are just making up for Speer 8 (http://www.amazon.com/SPEER-MANUAL-RELOADING-AMMUNITION-NUMBER/dp/B000VXVJJM) (a.k.a. "The Magick Book of Spells")

rcmodel
October 8, 2011, 11:38 AM
Ever notice how wimpy Speer data is compared to powder and other bullet manufacturer's data? No, I haven't.
Generally just the opposite in fact.

And you can't use new Speer data exactly interchangeably with other jacketed bullets.

Almost all the current Speer pistol bullets are plated, not jacketed.
Pressures are different with plated bullets.

rc

bfoosh006
October 8, 2011, 11:49 AM
You have seen this ... right ?

Important Reloading Data

DeepCurl's unique construction process joins the jacket to the core at the molecular level for excellent performance and consistency. For this reason, conventional reloading data developed for standard jacketed bullets should not be used to load DeepCurl™ rifle bullets. Only DeepCurl specific reloading data should be used. It can be found here at www.speer-bullets.com in the reloading data pages or by contacting Speer Technical Services at 866-286-7436. DeepCurl handgun bullets can use data from the Speer Reloading Manual #14.


Link...http://www.speer-bullets.com/whatsnew/default.aspx

Maybe the data was "wimpy" because of this. ( BTW, all the manu. have had hot loads and mild load data. Ramshot , when they first started, had data for the .40 SW that launched the 155 gr XTP at 1350 fps for a starting load ! )

BossHogg
October 8, 2011, 12:07 PM
Speer's manual seems to be the one I go to when looking for hot loads. At least for the calibers I load for. They use reloads catered to the hunting crowd.

They almost turn their nose up to cowboy loads by saying what self-respecting cowboy would shoot a 45 Colt 165 gr bullet at 600 ft/sec when you can shoot a 255gr at 900 ft/sec. I agree with that.

1911Tuner
October 8, 2011, 04:25 PM
All kinds of reasons that a bullet or powder manufacturer's data seems wimpy compared to the data offered 30 years or more ago.

One is that they have much better technology for measuring pressure than the old copper crusher method, which only measured peak pressure.

Two is that They're not overly concerned with maximum velocities. Their concern is staying within safe and reasonable pressures and pressure curves. The resulting velocity is what it is.

Three is that no two manufacturer's bullets are the same, even in the same weight. Jacket and core material varies. The data that you see produced the published results on that day...in that gun...with that lot of bullets and that lot of powder and that lot of primers. If any single ingredient changes, the whole ball game changes.

Four...and probably most important is that they...like the ammunition manufacturers...have to take into account that there are too many variables to aim for extreme velocities, and there are too many guns of advanced age and unknown histories that chamber the cartridge in question. The .357 Magnum, for instance...has been around since 1935. There are hundreds of thousands of revolvers in circulation that are chambered for it...and there are some revolvers still in service that are approaching 80 years old. And this doesn't even take into account the cheap junk that has been available in .357 Magnum. Rohm-RG for instance. I wouldn't want to be within a hundred yards of somebody firing an RG with the old, original .357 factory ammunition.

As a wise old man noted: (paraphrased)

"The pressure required to accelerate a 160-grain bullet to 1500 fps in 6 inches of rifled barrel is more than sufficient to blow your eyes through the back of your head."

As a final note, a question begs to be asked:

What can you kill with a 158-grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps that you can't kill just as dead with the same bullet at 1300?

gamestalker
October 8, 2011, 07:00 PM
I'm refering to the #10 edition, long before Gold Dots were on the menu. But I have recent up to date data that is much higher than any current Speer data, Sierra woudl be one example. Don't get me wrong though, I like to use data from multiple sources to do my load developement. I've always worked up from the lower end up, and stop when I've reached the physical limitations of either the bullet or brass.

And yes, I am very aware of the Deep Curl having it's own load data. But in this respect I'm not loading a high pwered rifle cartridge with Deep Curls as yet, just handgun for now. But I have also noticed that there are two different .357 Gold Dots / Deep Curl bullets out there. One is apparently for hunting, and the other is for lower velocity loads in 38 spcl.

The only plated Speer pistol bullets I'm aware of are the Gold Dots and Deep Curl. The TMJ, JHP, JSP, and the semi jacketed HP or SP are all jacketed bullets.

P-32
October 8, 2011, 07:20 PM
Speer data is wimpy? Maybe in some cases but I would not be using the Speer 11 357 Blue Dot data. Way over the top.

I have a fiiend who was told the max loads listed where really lite by a full grain. He has managed to blow up at least 3 guns using this thought. And yes he uses the wimpy Speer data.

Drail
October 8, 2011, 09:00 PM
"What can you kil with a 160 gr. bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps that you can't kill just as dead with same the same bullet at 1300?" That was a very wise man indeed.

zeke
October 10, 2011, 08:43 PM
It has been my experience Speer's data is generally not "wimpy" when compared to other manuals. Usually it is noticably "hotter". Usually and generally, as there are noticable exceptions. The older i get, the more i notice some of the same data from quite awhile back mixed with some newer data in the newer manuals.

Speer's bonded pistol and rifle bullets generally produce higher pressures than copper jacketed bullets of same weight. Am guessing their friction coefficient is noticably higher.

Deavis
October 11, 2011, 12:43 AM
I'm refering to the #10 edition,

Recent data is generally the other way in my experience. I just looked through 9mm across powders and Speer has the highest or is very close to the highest charge weight within FMJ and JHP loadings for at least 1/2 of them. It is a full grain higher (9.6 v. 8.6) in #7 than any data I have in my spreadsheet. Not to mention they typically use magnum primers when many other manufacturers use standard primers in large calibers.

If you notice the Lyman manuals use universal receivers and 26 inch test barrels, Speer and the other reloading manuals use regular off the shelf firearms.

Any manual that has pressure data should be using a pressure barrel and setup that complies with the SAAMI standard outlined in the Z299 spec. Speer may test in normal firearms for velocity but for pressure work they do it in test barrels otherwise the data would be worthless for proofing purposes.

MtnCreek
October 11, 2011, 12:23 PM
The TMJ, JHP, JSP, and the semi jacketed HP or SP are all jacketed bullets

I may be wrong, but I think the TMJ is 'jacketed' using the same method as the gold dots.

I have a fiiend who was told the max loads listed where really lite by a full grain. He has managed to blow up at least 3 guns using this thought. And yes he uses the wimpy Speer data.

Now there's someone that refuses to give up!

der Teufel
October 11, 2011, 01:37 PM
I too have noticed some variation in the load data among manufacturers. For instance, MAX LOADS for a 150 bullet in a .308 Winchester:

Hodgdon data shows 47.7 grains of IMR 4064 (compressed load) at 2903fps and 57,100 psi
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Hodgdon%20Basic%20Manual.pdf

Sierra 5th Edition shows a max load of 45.5 grains of IMR 4064at 2900 fps
http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/f/Sierra308Win.pdf

Speer manual #11 shows 47.0 grains of IMR 4064 at 2882 fps

Speer and Hodgdon are somewhat similar, but the Sierra data is considerably different.


What can you kill with a 158-grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps that you can't kill just as dead with the same bullet at 1300?

With the above thought in mind, I'm just working toward the minimum load that:
1) Is reasonably accurate
2) Cycles reliably in my AR-10
3) Kill hogs at ranges of 125 yards or less

It doesn't need to be super fast, just deadly and reliable. Of course, It'll probably be quite a while before I settle on a specific load. Getting there is more than half the fun.

sniper58
October 11, 2011, 06:19 PM
I have found that Speer's data and results (speed over chronograph) is the closest of any of my manuals. Speer manual is my "go to" book.
If it says that I can expect a certain velocity from a certain load, the results have usually been pretty close for me.

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