A question about the NICS


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jackson24
October 9, 2011, 09:02 PM
I'm new here and was wondering if you guys can shed some light on an issue I experienced a few days ago. I've bought several guns before but it was in the pre brady era. No problems. I am fully qualified according to the rules of the NICS for gun purchase. I live in Texas. We have been experiencing a bunch of Home Invasions in our area and were talking about purchasing a shotgun for Home Protection. We went to Academy on Thursday Oct 6, 2011 and I picked out the shotgun I wanted and filled out the paperwork etc and was told I was on Delay. Knowing I've done nothing wrong I returned 2 days later and had my wife apply for the same gun. The FFL said her NICS app was invalid and I thought he said she would be placed on a 30 day hold if she ever tried to purchase again because they were thinking this was a straw purchase. He said your husband is on delay here and even though I believe this is not intentional the FBI looks at this in a different way. He said he would call me when my delay cleared. OOPS... I just can't believe that this would be an issue. Wouldn't a straw purchase be if I had a friend go there and try to buy the exact same gun and I was with him. I mean a married couple wanting to protect themselves ?? My wife felt as if she had no rights and thought her's were supposed to be separate from mine. I know Academy will not transfer without a Proceed from the NICS. I went Thursday. Not counting that day.. Fri, Mon Tue would be three days. Well Mon is a federal holiday. so Wednesday. Should I call the NICS and inquire what the delay is for or just wait and if so how long will I be expected to wait. The guy at Academy told me if they had not heard back in 30 day's I'm free to reapply. Reapply !!! This is ridiculous. If it does turn into 30 days should I try to find an FFL that will transfer after the 3 day no response?? I can't believe this is happening. How patriotic is this.

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bikemutt
October 9, 2011, 09:38 PM
Concerning calling NICS with respect to your delay, my advice is don't waste your time; NICS will exchange zero information over the phone other than to tell you what I just said.

As to why the FFL treated your wife as you described, they are just doing their job, they are required to "know your customer". What you described sounds like it meets the test of someone attempting to "expedite", or get around the system.

As far as being instructed to wait 30 days, that sounds like the FFL talking. A NICS delay that exceeds 3 business days is at the discretion of the FFL with respect to a transfer.

BK
October 9, 2011, 09:42 PM
I'm a gun dealer. I've never heard of a 30 day length delay, only 3 days. It appears that this is their company policy to not transfer a firearm unless they have a "proceed" from NICS. They are also referring to the time limitation to a NICS check. See below. Academy doesn't have to wait for the "delay to clear", but they are obviously going to sick with their policy. A lot of times, dealers hear nothing from the NICS check (deny or proceed) which means after 3 days, they can transfer you the firearm. I have never had a customer delayed, but before I was a dealer, I was delayed once. It is almost always because there is a prohibited person in the system with a similar name. If you search around using the word "delay" in thread titles, you will find that this happens to a lot of people and more often than you might imagine. Here is a good thread to read: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=558038
27CFR 478.102(c):

(c) Time limitation on NICS checks. A NICS check conducted in accordance with paragraph (a) of this section may be relied upon by the licensee only for use in a single transaction, and for a period not to exceed 30 calendar days from the date that NICS was initially contacted. If the transaction is not completed within the 30-day period, the licensee shall initiate a new NICS check prior to completion of the transfer.
Delay info:
(B) "Delayed" response, if the NICS search finds a record that requires more research to determine whether the prospective transferee is disqualified from possessing a firearm by Federal or State law. A "Delayed" response to the FFL indicates that the firearm transfer should not proceed pending receipt of a follow-up "Proceed" response from the NICS or the expiration of three business days exclusive of the day on which the query is made), whichever occurs first. (Example: An FFL requests a NICS check on a prospective firearm transferee at 9:00 a.m. on Friday and shortly thereafter receives a "Delayed" response from the NICS. If State offices in the state in which he FFL is located are closed on Saturday and Sunday and open the following Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, and the NICS has not yet esponded with a "Proceed" or "Denied" response, the FFL may transfer the firearm at 12:01 a.m. Thursday.)

Thatguy686
October 9, 2011, 10:49 PM
i work at a gun store now and used to work at gandermtn that said the guy at academy is a idiot what happens more times then not is the nics gets busy and puts people on delay as you call it but its actually a conditional nonapproval after 3 business days and most places will say 3 full business days so if it was on a monday you would have to wait till friday since tuesday wednesday and thursday are the three full days but then you can get a conditional approval and take you firearms home that day the 30day wait is if you got a nonapproval which means you will not get approved no matter where you go and you have to appeal through nics because obviously you or someone with your name or close to the same social has a bad history as far as your wife getting denied thats exactly what they are supposed to do because even tho it may not be the case it looks like you got a conditional nonapproval and since you did shes going to come back and buy it for you. besides that here in florida it is illegal for a felon which is what your concidered until the background check comes back it is illegal for a felon to have guns in there house whether theirs or not so if you have the same address it red flags both of you

Thatguy686
October 9, 2011, 10:51 PM
another little piece of advice if you find out you got a nonapproval and go through the appeal process make sure you get a unique personal identification number or upin so you dont have this problem in the future

rule303
October 9, 2011, 10:57 PM
If your wife was buying the gun for you as a gift, it would be OK. Sounds like she is trying to buy it for you, which is illegal according to the ATF. While I don't agree with it, that's how it is. The clerk is just doing a CYA, because if he or she has any suspicion that it is a straw sale, they can be held personally responsible. They can transfer the gun to you in 3 business days, but many places won't do a transfer unless they get a "proceed" response. Not law, but many companies policy.

mgkdrgn
October 10, 2011, 03:52 AM
1) In that given situation, I would have denied to sell to your wife too, as a possible straw purchase.
2) The "three days" is after the end of 3 full business days after the NICS application was put in. At that point the dealer -may- release to you, but is under no obligation to do so. (fwiw, I will release after 3 days, but many "big box" chain stores will not)
3) If you are just coming up "delay", but not "deny", find another shop to buy from.

It ain't nuthin personal, it's just the law ... and it's been that way for a while.

Also, if you purchase from an individual in your state, person to person, more than likely none of the above applies.

Davek1977
October 10, 2011, 04:08 AM
Having someone purchase a firearm FOR you (not as a gift, but with your money) is the definition of a straw purchase. The dealer, like it or not, did the right thing in this case. While your wife's RIGHTS are seperate from yours, NO ONE has the right to break the law, no matter how silly it may be. No rights were violated in this case, and the dealer coverd his butt just like he should have. Seriously, who WOULDN'T see it as an attempt to get around the law when someone is rejected or delayed by the NCIS and then attempts to have his spouse or someone else purchase the exact same gun hours later? Don't you think the delaer may have had just a hunch that it was going to be in your possession sooner rather than later? If he has so much as an inkling that is going to happen, he is legally required to halt the sale. You claim you "KNOW" you did nothing wrong....but you sent your wife out to commit a felony on your behalf! You may not have know that, but ignorance of the law is seldom an accepted defense

Davek1977
October 10, 2011, 04:11 AM
Having someone purchase a firearm FOR you (not as a gift, but with your money) is the definition of a straw purchase. The dealer, like it or not, did the right thing in this case. While your wife's RIGHTS are seperate from yours, NO ONE has the right to break the law, no matter how silly it may be. No rights were violated in this case, and the dealer coverd his butt just like he should have. Seriously, who WOULDN'T see it as an attempt to get around the law when someone is rejected or delayed by the NCIS and then attempts to have his spouse or someone else purchase the exact same gun hours later? Don't you think the delaer may have had just a hunch that it was going to be in your possession sooner rather than later? If he has so much as an inkling that is going to happen, he is legally required to halt the sale. You claim you "KNOW" you did nothing wrong....but you basically unknowingly sent your wife out to commit a felony on your behalf! You may not have know that, but ignorance of the law is seldom an accepted defense in a court of law.

Thatguy686
October 10, 2011, 04:44 AM
rule303 in any ordinary situation a gifted gun is fine but if he was put on conditional nonapproval then he cant even be gifted a gun

ugaarguy
October 10, 2011, 05:23 AM
We went to Academy on Thursday Oct 6, 2011 and I picked out the shotgun I wanted and filled out the paperwork etc and was told I was on Delay. Knowing I've done nothing wrong I returned 2 days later and had my wife apply for the same gun. The FFL said her NICS app was invalid and I thought he said she would be placed on a 30 day hold if she ever tried to purchase again because they were thinking this was a straw purchase. He said your husband is on delay here and even though I believe this is not intentional the FBI looks at this in a different way. He said he would call me when my delay cleared. OOPS... I just can't believe that this would be an issue. Wouldn't a straw purchase be if I had a friend go there and try to buy the exact same gun and I was with him. I mean a married couple wanting to protect themselves ?? My wife felt as if she had no rights and thought her's were supposed to be separate from mine.
Per BATFE endorsed firearms transfer training I've received that's absolutely correct. You were in delayed status, and you tried to circumvent the NICS by having your wife attempt to purchase the firearm. If Academy had run the NICS on your wife, and transferred the firearm to her, with knowledge of the circumstances (which you've articulated they had) then the clerk, and manager approving the transfer, along with your wife, could legally be charged with a felony under the section of US Code applicable to straw sales of firearms. Your marital status is irrelevant. Your lack of criminal history is irrelevant until you get a proceed response (or exceed the 3 business days without denial at a dealer who will transfer then). As long as you're in delayed status anyone else attempting to buy that firearm, even your wife, is circumventing the NICS on your behalf. The BATFE is very black & white on this if you read the FFL regulations.
I know Academy will not transfer without a Proceed from the NICS. I went Thursday. Not counting that day.. Fri, Mon Tue would be three days. Well Mon is a federal holiday. so Wednesday. Should I call the NICS and inquire what the delay is for or just wait and if so how long will I be expected to wait. The guy at Academy told me if they had not heard back in 30 day's I'm free to reapply. Reapply !!! This is ridiculous. If it does turn into 30 days should I try to find an FFL that will transfer after the 3 day no response?? I can't believe this is happening. How patriotic is this.
If you've ever worked for a retailer that does transfer after 3 days, and had the NICS call you back on the 5th day now wanting you to try to convince that person to bring the gun back you'd understand why Academy won't transfer without a proceed. If you don't get a proceed within two weeks I'd go back and ask for the NTN (NICS Transaction Number), and call the NICS at their appeals number. You have a right to know the NTN, so don't let them try to deny you that. Here's a link to the appeal info pamphlet - http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/appeals/nics_appeals_brochure_eng .

JohnBT
October 10, 2011, 10:32 AM
He didn't "send" his wife on some sneaky felony mission, he went to the shop with her. Openly. You'll have a hard time proving intent.

mgkdrgn
October 10, 2011, 10:53 AM
1) A "DELAY" can mean darn near anything from "you have a name similar to a prohibited person and they need to further research" to "hey, I'm eating my lunch, I'll get back to you later to "I'll get to you when I finish these first 10 guys ahead of you". And no, they (NICS) won't tell you why.

2) I would have denied your wife too ... this is/was a classic "straw purchase" situation. Unless you want to spend the rest of your life making little rocks out of big rocks, I don't suggest you try it again.

3) AFTER three business days have passed since the application, if there has been no reply beyond the DELAY, the FFL -may- release the gun to you. Note I say -may-, they are under no obligation to do so. NICS will "allegedly" work on the DELAY for a total of 30 days. I say "allegedly" because I have never, ever, had a DELAY turn into anything else except a DELAY.

Because of that 30 day thing, many "big box" retailers (the one with lawyers on staff or on retainer) will not release on a DELAY. Most independent FFL's and smaller gunshops will. I will.

Suggestions: Go to another smaller place to get your shotgun
Buy one direct from an individual

Don't concern yourself with the "Appeal" process ... you don't appeal a DELAY, you appeal a DENY.

PapaG
October 10, 2011, 11:02 AM
Basically a "straw" purchase is buying a gun to pass on (sell/give/whatever) to someone who is not legally eligible to own a gun. Your wife could buy a gun to give to you only if you are eligible to have one. If you were on "delay" that kills that deal.

hso
October 10, 2011, 11:07 AM
I returned 2 days later and had my wife apply for the same gun.

That was a mistake. There are legitimate processes for dealing with a delay/denial, but while you're in limbo the system doesn't see you as being qualified to purchase a firearm. Intentionally having someone purchase a firearm for you can be seen as intent to participate in a straw purchase. OTOH, since your wife and you live at the same address and the firearm is for the home, it is not unreasonable for her to make a purchase as long as the intent isn't to get around the law. Her house, her shotgun, her purchase.

If you didn't provide your SS# there can be a delay because of confusion with someone else with same/similar name.

If you've moved recently there can be a delay if there are multiple "current" addresses for you.

If the request line is overloaded or there are database access problems you can get a "DELAYED" response.

Patience is always a valuable virtue when dealing with these sorts of things.

dogtown tom
October 10, 2011, 11:20 AM
Thatguy686 rule303 in any ordinary situation a gifted gun is fine but if he was put on conditional nonapproval then he cant even be gifted a gun
No such terminology in the FBI NICS process.....it's either PROCEED, DELAYED or DENIED.

PapaG Basically a "straw" purchase is buying a gun to pass on (sell/give/whatever) to someone who is not legally eligible to own a gun. Your wife could buy a gun to give to you only if you are eligible to have one. If you were on "delay" that kills that deal.
Incorrect.
It's a commmon misconception, but there is no requirement for any party involved be ineligible to possess a firearm.
ATF is VERY clear....a "straw purchase" is ANY transaction where the transferee is not the actual buyer. (there is an exemption for "gifting").
Question 11a on the 4473 asks:
"Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person..."

hso .....If you've moved recently there can be a delay if there are multiple "current" addresses for you.
If the request line is overloaded or there are database access problems you can get a "DELAYED" response.
FBI NICS is never told the address of the purchaser, only "state of residence".
In my last one thousand NICS calls I've had exactly ONE call where a recording told me NICS was temporarily unavailable. The FBI NICS has to be the single most efficient "call center" on the planet....they answer by the second ring 99% of the time.

MtnCreek
October 10, 2011, 11:28 AM
If it were me and the shotgun was for home defence for my wife's use, I would suggest she purchase a shotgun at a local Mom & Pop gun shop. If Academy calls you back (they probably won't) I would tell them I'm no longer interested and hang up.

PapaG
October 10, 2011, 11:53 AM
The local Mom and Pop gun store has to operate under the same rules and laws as the big stores.

MtnCreek
October 10, 2011, 12:01 PM
The local Mom and Pop gun store has to operate under the same rules and laws as the big stores.

As far as following Federal and State Laws, that's correct, but the typical LGS will complete the transaction on a 'delayed' after the 3 day wait, assuming NICS does not call back with a 'denied'. In this case Academy is going beyond the requirements of Federal law. Another good reason to go to a LGS is because the salesman at Academy likely has no knowledge of shotguns, ammunition or much of anything else. If you have a problem with your firearm purchased from the big box retailer, no one there can help you.

NavyLCDR
October 10, 2011, 05:55 PM
rule303 in any ordinary situation a gifted gun is fine but if he was put on conditional nonapproval then he cant even be gifted a gun

That simply is not true. If you know the person well enough to know they have no reason to be a prohibited person, you can gift them a gun with a NICS delay pending, or even a NICS denial. NICS has absolutely nothing to do with private party firearms transactions between residents of the same state.

jackson24
October 11, 2011, 01:54 PM
Having someone purchase a firearm FOR you (not as a gift, but with your money) is the definition of a straw purchase. The dealer, like it or not, did the right thing in this case. While your wife's RIGHTS are seperate from yours, NO ONE has the right to break the law, no matter how silly it may be. No rights were violated in this case, and the dealer coverd his butt just like he should have. Seriously, who WOULDN'T see it as an attempt to get around the law when someone is rejected or delayed by the NCIS and then attempts to have his spouse or someone else purchase the exact same gun hours later? Don't you think the delaer may have had just a hunch that it was going to be in your possession sooner rather than later? If he has so much as an inkling that is going to happen, he is legally required to halt the sale. You claim you "KNOW" you did nothing wrong....but you sent your wife out to commit a felony on your behalf! You may not have know that, but ignorance of the law is seldom an accepted defense
I disagree. We are married and live in the same household. We will both be using the gun.
It's both of our money on a joint account. Not Mine alone. I went with my wife 2 day's later as she wanted one also. We are going to stock pile many weapons as soon as we get cleared. Once I have one, the rest can take their time as I will have a way to protect my family. I in no way want to ever have to take someones life but I'm going to have a way to protect my family. Were not gun nuts or even go to firing ranges. My Dad is a retired Police Sgt and I guess it's just what you know from experiences that make me want to be ready.
I did not send her to do a felony and they would no way be able to succsfully charge her with that.

Birch Knoll
October 11, 2011, 02:24 PM
Disagree all you like. The FFL was right to do what he did. It's his license that is at risk if he sells the same gun to your wife that you were delayed on 2 days before. If you eventually came back denied, he could lose his license, or be convicted of a crime.

jackson24
October 11, 2011, 04:01 PM
Resolution: My wife and I were in an LGS at lunch looking at some 12GA and I got a call from Academy saying I had been preceded and I could come pick up my 12GA whenever I wanted so actually I was ranting and raven for nothing. I applied Thursday and Monday was a holiday so to be cleared on Tuesday I guess is pretty good. I'm happy happy happy !!
Thanks for all the responses and happy hunting !!

rule303
October 11, 2011, 04:09 PM
Glad to hear this one had a happy ending.

RatDrall
October 11, 2011, 10:19 PM
I was ranting and raven for nothing

You were ranting and raving about your rights being denied. I don't blame you...

Bubbles
October 12, 2011, 09:21 AM
Just a friendly heads-up: we have several customers who get delayed regularly, not because there is something in their past to cause problems, but because there's a prohibited person in the system whose name/DOB/POB/etc is an almost-match. If it happens again, get a UPIN.

jackson24
October 17, 2011, 09:38 PM
That was a mistake. There are legitimate processes for dealing with a delay/denial, but while you're in limbo the system doesn't see you as being qualified to purchase a firearm. Intentionally having someone purchase a firearm for you can be seen as intent to participate in a straw purchase. OTOH, since your wife and you live at the same address and the firearm is for the home, it is not unreasonable for her to make a purchase as long as the intent isn't to get around the law. Her house, her shotgun, her purchase.

If you didn't provide your SS# there can be a delay because of confusion with someone else with same/similar name.

If you've moved recently there can be a delay if there are multiple "current" addresses for you.

If the request line is overloaded or there are database access problems you can get a "DELAYED" response.

Patience is always a valuable virtue when dealing with these sorts of things.
I apologize if I've stepped out of line.

7.62 Nato
October 17, 2011, 10:33 PM
Resolution: My wife and I were in an LGS at lunch looking at some 12GA and I got a call from Academy saying I had been preceded and I could come pick up my 12GA whenever I wanted so actually I was ranting and raven for nothing. I applied Thursday and Monday was a holiday so to be cleared on Tuesday I guess is pretty good. I'm happy happy happy !!
Thanks for all the responses and happy hunting !!
So did you buy from Academy, or the LGS?

jackson24
October 18, 2011, 05:37 PM
Yes I bought from Academy. I have a multitude of address in multiple states. It came back in 2 days actually cause Monday was a holiday. It was quick. I'm sure the next purchase will be delayed however I will wait it out as I was in a hurry as I had no HD gun before the Mossberg. I'm thinking well get my wife a shotgun as well and then well get a couple of Glocks. I'm trying to figure out which Glock would be good for her. I really liked the .38 special bodyguard but she did not seem too stoked about them. I'm trying to explain how reliable a revolver is over a semi auto but she insists on the Semi. Maybe they are better now. I remember I had an older glock in the 80's and it always seemed to jam on the 3rd or 4th bullet. Don't remember the model #.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 18, 2011, 06:01 PM
I, also, am glad for you that this was resolved in a timely manner.

I know the feeling when you feel like you are kind of out of control regarding something -- it's kind of like feeling like one is walking on eggs, really for no reason at all -- just wanting to get the transaction done and complete!

Enjoy your new hobby/sport!
Oh, and Welcome to the site!

Bobson
October 18, 2011, 07:25 PM
OTOH, since your wife and you live at the same address and the firearm is for the home, it is not unreasonable for her to make a purchase as long as the intent isn't to get around the law. Her house, her shotgun, her purchase.
I was wondering why nobody was mentioning this.

Same gun or different gun is irrelevant. If she can legally own a firearm, she should have been approved (unless NICS had some arbitrary "delay" on her, as well). There was no evidence that she was buying the gun for her husband's explicit use.

A family decides they want a firearm to protect their home. The husband could be a convicted felon fresh out of prison on parole, and it wouldn't be illegal for his wife to buy a firearm. Nor would it be illegal for him to go along with her and point to a specific shotgun on the rack, and tell his wife, "Buy this one," right in front of the clerk. What happened here was total BS.

bikemutt
October 18, 2011, 07:48 PM
I was wondering why nobody was mentioning this.

Same gun or different gun is irrelevant. If she can legally own a firearm, she should have been approved (unless NICS had some arbitrary "delay" on her, as well). There was no evidence that she was buying the gun for her husband's explicit use.

A family decides they want a firearm to protect their home. The husband could be a convicted felon fresh out of prison on parole, and it wouldn't be illegal for his wife to buy a firearm. Nor would it be illegal for him to go along with her and point to a specific shotgun on the rack, and tell his wife, "Buy this one," right in front of the clerk. What happened here was total BS.
The story wasn't quite that simple: he was delayed and then returned a couple with days later with his wife wherein she sought to buy the same gun. Any FFL who has gone though the hoops to get a license would see that as fishy. I'll agree they should have explained it better.

Bubbles
October 18, 2011, 08:08 PM
Any FFL who has gone though the hoops to get a license would see that as fishy a huge red flag that screams ATF STING all over it.
FIFY.

Bobson
October 18, 2011, 08:48 PM
The story wasn't quite that simple: he was delayed and then returned a couple with days later with his wife wherein she sought to buy the same gun. Any FFL who has gone though the hoops to get a license would see that as fishy. I'll agree they should have explained it better.
My understanding of what happened is the same as what you just described. I see no problems with it, and it wasn't illegal either. She didn't go back there to buy a gun for her husband. She went to buy a gun to protect her home, and last time I checked, there's no law against that. Whether anyone sees red flags or not is irrelevant. If you invalidate my app because you assume I have illegal intentions, you're a moron acting within the law, and I'll make sure you don't get my business or the business of anyone I know ever again.

Birch Knoll
October 18, 2011, 10:03 PM
If you invalidate my app because you assume I have illegal intentions, you're a moron acting within the law, and I'll make sure you don't get my business or the business of anyone I know ever again.

Do you have an FFL? If so, you're free to jeopardize yours in that situation if you so wish. I wouldn't.

bikemutt
October 18, 2011, 10:10 PM
I agree no citizen should be tried and convicted by a gun counter person, however, if your chosen livelihood involves selling guns to the public, you accept a role that requires you to engage judgement. Anyone who has to judge is going to make some good calls, and some not so good calls, it's the nature of the beast.

I'm happy to agree that we disagree on this call. I smelled fish, "straw" Bass I believe, you didn't. It's all good.

Bobson
October 18, 2011, 10:24 PM
You know, the bottom line is, in court, neither the BATFE, the FBI, or anyone else would have ever been successful in proving any intent to bypass the OP's delay. Nobody could ever prove that the wife wasn't trying to buy the shotgun for herself. In fact, it could have been the husband trying to buy a gift for his wife, when he was delayed; then, as a result, the wife figured she'd just buy it herself. Heck, she wasn't legally prohibited from buying a firearm.

Really, that's all that matters. Maybe that shouldn't be all that matters, but too bad. Laws get passed. Sometimes you like em, sometimes you don't, but you gotta abide by them anyway. Every once in a while, you find a way to make a dumb law work for you, even if it was intended to work against you. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Birch Knoll
October 18, 2011, 10:35 PM
n the case the OP presented, his wife wasn't trying to purchase a firearm for someone else (evidently referred to as a "straw purchase"). She was trying to buy a firearm to protect her home, because her husband was unable to do so.Yes; a situation indistinguishable from a classic straw sale: Original buyer is delayed; returns to store with a friend/relative/spouse in tow to purchase the same firearm. From the ATF FFL Best Practices Guide:


You MAY NOT sell or transfer a firearm or ammunition to any of the following prohibited persons or in the following circumstances:

1. Straw Purchaser: A “straw purchaser” is a person who is not the “actual buyer” of the firearm; that is, a person who obtains a firearm for another person. Straw purchases are a primary source of firearms used in crime. If you suspect that a transaction is a straw purchase or there are suspicious circum- stances surrounding the potential sale—such as one person picking out the firearm, handling the firearm, and providing the payment for the firearm while another person completes the Form 4473—you should not sell the firearm. Similarly, if one person attempts to purchase a firearm, NICS denies or delays the attempted purchase, and another person with him or her attempts to buy the same firearm, you must not complete this sale.

Bobson
October 18, 2011, 10:48 PM
lmao. The ATF's "Best Practices Guide." Does it include instructions on how to traffic arms into Mexico and get US agents killed, then pretend it's not your fault? :barf:

I wish I owned a copy of that thing. Someday it's going to be in a museum as an example of what lead to America's downfall.

Birch Knoll
October 18, 2011, 10:51 PM
You know, the bottom line is, in court, neither the BATFE, the FBI, or anyone else would have ever been successful in proving any intent to bypass the OP's delay. Nobody could ever prove that the wife wasn't trying to buy the shotgun for herself. In fact, it could have been the husband trying to buy a gift for his wife, when he was delayed; then, as a result, the wife figured she'd just buy it herself. Heck, she wasn't legally prohibited from buying a firearm.

While it's very nice that perhaps ATF might not be able to prove a case against the OP or his wife, they most certainly can prove that the FFL did not follow correct procedure.

Suddenly, I can at least understand why you have the opinion that you do: You're getting business instructions from the BATFE.Well, they do make the rules which FFLs are required to follow, now don't they?

BeerSleeper
October 18, 2011, 11:10 PM
A family decides they want a firearm to protect their home. The husband could be a convicted felon fresh out of prison on parole, and it wouldn't be illegal for his wife to buy a firearm.

I'm not sure of that. If there's a convicted felon in the house, I think the guns in the house may have to be locked up out of access of the felon. A friend of mine had to buy a gunsafe, to lock up his guns, when his felonious step son moved in with him when he was released from prison.
He did this on the advice of an attorney (and to be totally honest, also to keep his stepson from selling them for drug money).

dogtown tom
October 19, 2011, 12:38 AM
Bobson:....Whether anyone sees red flags or not is irrelevant.
Seriously?:scrutiny:
Why don't YOU get an FFL and then see if you continue to sing the same song. The transfer of firearms is serious business. Nothing is irrelevant when jail time or fines are involved.



...If you invalidate my app because you assume I have illegal intentions, you're a moron acting within the law...
Sorry Cinderella, but you don't have a clue what is at risk. ATF says that I cannot transfer a firearm if I merely suspect that a straw sale is involved. I don't have a choice. You would be a moron for thinking I would risk my license, business and freedom to sell you a gun. Think again.

Calling a dealer a moron for complying with Federal law is well...the single most moronic thing I've read this week.


and I'll make sure you don't get my business or the business of anyone I know ever again.
Sure you will. :rolleyes:
And most dealers would be glad you stay away. No dealer in his right mind would stand for someone like you coming into his store and attempting a straw sale or encouraging others to attempt such.

If I catch someone trying a straw sale they'll get bounced out the front door muy pronto. I won't stand for someone trying to use me to obtain a firearm illegally.


Bobson lmao. The ATF's "Best Practices Guide."
Laugh all you want. It isn't funny.
The Best Practices Guide is an EXCELLENT resource for dealers to help them stay compliant with federal law. You find it funny? I find it valuable. The difference is you aren't a licensed dealer, if you were and had actually read the guide you wouldn't be "lmao".

ATF regulates firearms, theres no getting around that. Whatever wrongs the ATF did in Fast and Furious doesn't erase the fact that they regulate the firearms industry. Simple clerical errors or ommissions are viewed as "willful" by ATF and can cause a dealer to lose his license, be declined for renewal or face fines or possible jail time. Ignoring the clues to a straw sale makes for a short career as a gun dealer.

Birch Knoll
October 19, 2011, 12:55 AM
Nobody could ever prove that the wife wasn't trying to buy the shotgun for herself. In fact, it could have been the husband trying to buy a gift for his wife, when he was delayed; then, as a result, the wife figured she'd just buy it herself. Heck, she wasn't legally prohibited from buying a firearm.

Really, that's all that matters.You just don't seem to "get" the fact that the FFL could lose his license or go to prison if he completed that sale. If the OP tried to buy the gun from me and got delayed, and then returned with his wife to buy the same gun, I would refuse to make the sale, and explain why. If he pressed me to do it anyway, I would show him the door and instruct him that he is not welcome to return.

My license, my rules. Besides, I'm too pretty to go to prison.

jackson24
October 21, 2011, 10:40 PM
Thanks I really appreciate the kind words.

jackson24
October 21, 2011, 10:41 PM
I, also, am glad for you that this was resolved in a timely manner.

I know the feeling when you feel like you are kind of out of control regarding something -- it's kind of like feeling like one is walking on eggs, really for no reason at all -- just wanting to get the transaction done and complete!

Enjoy your new hobby/sport!
Oh, and Welcome to the site!
Thanks I appreciate the kind words.

RatDrall
October 22, 2011, 11:02 AM
A family decides they want a firearm to protect their home. The husband could be a convicted felon fresh out of prison on parole, and it wouldn't be illegal for his wife to buy a firearm. Nor would it be illegal for him to go along with her and point to a specific shotgun on the rack, and tell his wife, "Buy this one," right in front of the clerk. What happened here was total BS.


Google "Constructive Posession".

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