bought my first silencer


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dannyr3_8
October 10, 2011, 03:38 PM
picked out my first silencer today going to sheriffs office tomorrow hope every things goes well i can't think of any reason to be turned down but still a little nervous but if it doesn't go through i'll just have to spend the 627.00 on something else like a new gun:rolleyes:

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redbullitt
October 10, 2011, 06:33 PM
If you can buy a gun you will go through on the suppressor just fine.

Some sheriffs do not like to sign off. If that is the case, just do the trust. I am sure your dealer could point you in the right direction if that were the case.

Ranb
October 11, 2011, 10:23 AM
Make sure the sheriff knows that his refusal to sign is not an obstacle to silencer ownership as you can simply use a trust. Be tactful, but let him know that he can know who owns them (by signing) or remain ignorant (by not signing). His choice.

Ranb

Dustin0
October 11, 2011, 11:29 AM
Danny Iam in Louisville it will go thur with out a problem.

They signed off on my SBR in a few hours. Droped off my paper work at 9:00 they called at noon said it was ready.

Dustin0
October 11, 2011, 11:30 AM
Dont forget to bring your finger print cards, form 4 and they charge $20 fee.

Owen Sparks
October 11, 2011, 12:42 PM
Can you use a registered silencer on different firearms or is it registered for use only on one perticular rifle?

In other words, if you had half a dozen AR's could you swap it around?

Dustin0
October 11, 2011, 01:34 PM
Any Firearm.

rjrivero
October 11, 2011, 01:49 PM
Dont forget to bring your finger print cards, form 4 and they charge $20 fee.

WHAT? They charge a FEE to excecute the duty of their office? I'd get a TRUST based on that principle right there.

FWIW, if you do decide to pay their petty extortion, you need to bring TWO copies of your 5320.4 (Must be submitted in duplicate with original IN INK signatures on both.)

Aaron Baker
October 11, 2011, 03:01 PM
WHAT? They charge a FEE to excecute the duty of their office?

It isn't the duty of local law enforcement officers to sign off on federal forms. In fact, the fact that it's optional is sort of the point of this thread. The people that are forced to get trusts are forced to get trusts because the sheriff has no DUTY to sign anything. It's his choice.

Now, you might disagree with that system, but that doesn't make it a duty of his office.

I imagine that the $20 fee isn't in exchange for his signature, but for them to do the fingerprints. The fingerprints don't HAVE to be done at the sheriff's office, so it isn't extortion either. You could get them done anywhere. And the sheriff has no duty to provide fingerprinting services to anyone who walks in with a set of cards.

When I worked with a domestic violence shelter as a volunteer, I had to get fingerprinted for their background check, and the local PD did the fingerprints for free. They didn't have to do them at all, and could have charged money if they wanted to. There's no duty to provide free fingerprinting.

Aaron

Dustin0
October 11, 2011, 03:05 PM
NO There is a $20 fee for finger prints at the country Jail that is ran by Metro. Then $20 to the Sheriff for the background check.

CoRoMo
October 11, 2011, 04:31 PM
You can find Nolo software for less than $5 that will get it done.

Aaron Baker
October 11, 2011, 04:31 PM
That's pretty interesting, Dustin. The ATF doesn't require the Sheriff to do a background check... so is that just his requirement before he'll sign off?

Aaron Baker
October 11, 2011, 04:34 PM
You can find Nolo software for less than $5 that will get it done.

You CAN do that if you're drawing up a trust, but it may or may not be the wisest idea. Generic revocable living trust software doesn't necessarily address some concerns raised by the National Firearms Act. It might get you a valid trust that the ATF approves for you to get your silencer, but you may also end up putting your heirs in a bad position legally. (Or even yourself, potentially.)

I am a Kentucky based lawyer who has done some NFA trusts, and they do have some important differences from a generic trust. So I encourage people doing the trust route to consult a lawyer who is familiar with NFA trusts, specifically.

With that said, it sounds like the OP doesn't need a trust, because the Louisville sheriff will sign off on Form 4s. Lexington residents aren't that lucky.

Aaron

Dustin0
October 11, 2011, 05:43 PM
That's pretty interesting, Dustin. The ATF doesn't require the Sheriff to do a background check... so is that just his requirement before he'll sign off?

They may not be required to do but they do. They call and asked about a few things on my record. So if you have to many little things they wont sign off.

rjrivero
October 11, 2011, 07:09 PM
I had to get a background check for various work over the years. Often a pre-requisite for employment at a specific job. However, I don't ever recall paying for the service. I suppose they could have charged the company doing the hiring for the finger print fee.

I suppose I can understand that the CLEO may not want to sign off paperwork for the feds. However, doesn't it strike you as odd that they won't do a local background check on a law abiding, tax paying citizen? They don't even have to do a FEDERAL check, since the FEDS are doing one of their own.

They'll GLADLY go ahead and do a COMPLETE background check if you're SPEEDING, but you ASK them to do one for you and they make you PAY? Just seems somehow......broken.

I do kind of see it as the DUTY OF HIS OFFICE. He is the CLEO. It is required by the NFA to have him sign the form to acknowledge that the person receiving this device IS in fact, NOT RUN AFOUL OF THE LAW in his LOCAL JURISDICTION. That is part of the job, as far as I see it. Maybe I'm nieve that way, but I thought the duty was to protect and serve. I would think this falls under the "serve" part...no?

Dustin0
October 12, 2011, 09:47 AM
I found the fee was reasonable. They do have to push paper work around and do the background checks. Charging a small fee is so John Q tax payer does get stuck with the bill for that manpower and time that people like me take up buying NFA items. It’s just like the fees for the Conceal and Carrier Licenses. I look at as I am paying for a service.

tallpaul
October 12, 2011, 10:09 AM
Mr. Baker, what are the differences? It's not like you will loose money sharing, especially with us out of state folks ;)

My last cost me for the fingerprints, I tried to give my CLEO a few bucks for lunch n he about had a cow, and that was AFTER it was done.... It was innocent on my part but a big deal apparently and he is a straight no gray area kind of guy.

As far as the "serve n duty part" just yet another unfunded mandate from above, I am sure you would gladly do extra work that cost money in materials and manpower for free just because someone who does not pay you says you should.

Sherrifs don't work for the Feds ya know.

dannyr3_8
October 12, 2011, 11:55 AM
thanks dustin i dropped off papers yesterday and yes they charged 20 to do fingerprints and 20 to do filing oh and it was another 10 to get pix done now just waiting thank you for your encouragement i'm a little nervous as i said before

dannyr3_8
October 12, 2011, 11:59 AM
You CAN do that if you're drawing up a trust, but it may or may not be the wisest idea. Generic revocable living trust software doesn't necessarily address some concerns raised by the National Firearms Act. It might get you a valid trust that the ATF approves for you to get your silencer, but you may also end up putting your heirs in a bad position legally. (Or even yourself, potentially.)

I am a Kentucky based lawyer who has done some NFA trusts, and they do have some important differences from a generic trust. So I encourage people doing the trust route to consult a lawyer who is familiar with NFA trusts, specifically.

With that said, it sounds like the OP doesn't need a trust, because the Louisville sheriff will sign off on Form 4s. Lexington residents aren't that lucky.

Aaron
what is a trust how does it work just curious

CoRoMo
October 12, 2011, 12:45 PM
what is a trust how does it work...
A trust is a separate entity that takes ownership of property. It is easier to understand when you hear someone says something like, "I don't own this truck, my business does". The business is often something in and of itself, apart from the owner. The business owns property and the owner controls that property. When people "go the trust route", they are creating a device that will actually own the property while they are a trustee who can control the use of the property.

Aaron can certainly give you a better explanation, but that's how I'd describe it. I'd go as far as guessing that the vast majority of trusts that the ATF receive are drafted on PC software. The majority of gripes that I've heard/read on forums like SilencerTalk are rejections from the examiner for typos and such. One guy on AR15.com may have gotten into an apprehensive situation after his trust was first approved and then later found to be invalid. This would put him illegally in possession of an NFA item, but I'm sure it was/can be cleared up without shackles and an orange jumpsuit. Other than those cursory examples, I've never heard of anything terrible happening from all the trusts that are flooding the NFA Branch examiners' desks. I imagine eventually something will, but for the most part these things are working out for everyone.

dannyr3_8
October 12, 2011, 03:42 PM
A trust is a separate entity that takes ownership of property. It is easier to understand when you hear someone says something like, "I don't own this truck, my business does". The business is often something in and of itself, apart from the owner. The business owns property and the owner controls that property. When people "go the trust route", they are creating a device that will actually own the property while they are a trustee who can control the use of the property.

Aaron can certainly give you a better explanation, but that's how I'd describe it. I'd go as far as guessing that the vast majority of trusts that the ATF receive are drafted on PC software. The majority of gripes that I've heard/read on forums like SilencerTalk are rejections from the examiner for typos and such. One guy on AR15.com may have gotten into an apprehensive situation after his trust was first approved and then later found to be invalid. This would put him illegally in possession of an NFA item, but I'm sure it was/can be cleared up without shackles and an orange jumpsuit. Other than those cursory examples, I've never heard of anything terrible happening from all the trusts that are flooding the NFA Branch examiners' desks. I imagine eventually something will, but for the most part these things are working out for everyone.
thank you

TriTone
October 12, 2011, 04:35 PM
Unless they tell you to go pick up Quicken Trustmaker like mine did. Not great advice. If you need to get a trust, get a lawyer, and get it done right.

dannyr3_8
October 13, 2011, 04:04 PM
:):):):):) i just got call from sheriffs office papers are signed and ready to pick up tomorrow :what:

Dustin0
October 13, 2011, 04:10 PM
Oh now the hard part starts. The waiting.

Aaron Baker
October 15, 2011, 07:43 PM
CoRoMo gave a pretty good explanation of trusts. They're a separate legal entity, just like a corporation. When someone talks about having a "trust fund," they're talking about there being a trust which holds ownership of some money, and they are the beneficiary that the money is paid out to. The trust also has someone who manages that money in the meantime, called the trustee, and it's usually a bank when you're talking money, but could be anyone. And, of course, the trust has someone who started it, called the grantor or settlor, and that's whose money it was originally, like your rich uncle.

Now when you use a trust for NFA items, you're both the settlor/grantor and the trustee. (The rich uncle and the manager.) The beneficiary is a third person (anyone really--usually your kids). You put the NFA item into the trust, and because you're the trustee, you can use it until you die, whereupon it passes to the beneficiary.

The reason people use the trust route for NFA items is two main things: one, you don't need to get fingerprinted or get a CLEO signoff, and two, you can have multiple trustees (such as you and your spouse) so you can all legally possess the item alone.

As for tallpaul's question, I won't answer it for a few reasons. First, if I answer a question openly on the internet, then yes, I would lose money on the in-state people who also read the answer and did their own trusts. But that's not the biggest concern because I'm not getting wealthy off the NFA trusts I do. More importantly, trusts are a complicated legal field. If you don't do one properly, all NFA issues aside, you may not really be structuring the entire arrangement the way you personally want. Each trust is customized to the goals of its grantor. Also, if I were to go around giving legal advice on the internet to people in other states, I could be theoretically be prosecuted for practicing law in states where I don't have a license. I could also accidentally form a attorney-client relationship with someone that I didn't mean to, which means you could sue me when my advice didn't turn out the way you wanted. Since the ATF doesn't have a sense of humor, I'd rather people directly and extensively consult with an attorney that they're paying to know their situation and draft a trust accordingly. If they want to take the risk of using Quicken Willmaker instead, fine. The ATF hasn't really prosecuted anyone yet for a bad trust putting someone in possession of an NFA item. But then again, people haven't been using computer-program-drafted trusts for that long either. I'd hate to be the first person that ended up on the wrong side of the ATF because of a Quicken trust.

Aaron (who is a lawyer, but isn't your lawyer)

dprice3844444
October 16, 2011, 12:46 AM
they eat free at mcdonalds,why take a tip for meals

william74
October 16, 2011, 09:45 PM
Maybe someone can help me out......

Whether I use my name and fingerprints or take the Trust (entity) route, can I purchase a suppressor from Ohio even though I'm a resident of Illinois but often goes out of state to shoot. I can leave the suppressor in my relative house in Ohio which allows suppressors. PLEASE EXPLAIN

Ranb
October 17, 2011, 12:52 AM
Here you go from the horse's mouth;
http://law.justia.com/cfr/title27/27-2.0.1.2.3.2.1.1.html
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. An alien who is legally in the United States shall be considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm. The following are examples that illustrate this definition:

Example 1. A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3. A, an alien, travels on vacation or on a business trip to State X. Regardless of the length of time A spends in State X, A does not have a State of residence in State X. This is because A does not have a home in State X at which he has resided for at least 90 days.
The best thing to do is create a shared trust with your relative in Ohio and store it there for the trustee's (you and releative) use. If you want to own it personally, then you need to establish residency in accordance with the above link. You can keep it locked up in any state they are legal in as long as you have the only key (or combo) to the safe.

Ranb

william74
October 17, 2011, 11:03 PM
Here you go from the horse's mouth;
http://law.justia.com/cfr/title27/27-2.0.1.2.3.2.1.1.html

The best thing to do is create a shared trust with your relative in Ohio and store it there for the trustee's (you and releative) use. If you want to own it personally, then you need to establish residency in accordance with the above link. You can keep it locked up in any state they are legal in as long as you have the only key (or combo) to the safe.

Ranb
Ranb

Thanks 4 da in4.

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