Plated bullets for light 44 magnum loads? Crimp?


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Photoguy
October 11, 2011, 10:13 AM
As a follow up to my previous 44 mag/spl post (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=617638), I've got another related question.

If I'm loading up light 44 magnum loads, can I use plated bullets? In 9/38/45, I use a lot of Rainier plated bullets. Partially because I like the fact that they are manufactured in my home state, also because they are a good budget plinking choice, and mostly because the indoor range requires a TMJ or "covered base" bullet. We have an outdoor range. But I enjoy the ability to use the indoor range and given that my wife has said she has no interest in the outdoor range during the 9 months of rain we get in the PNW, I'm not likely to try and switch. So I'm hoping I can find a decently priced "indoor" bullet from Rainier/Berrys/xtreme.

Given the choice, I'd go for the lighter 200-220gn bullets. But I'd also be happy with the plain old 240 if needed. I've heard that people have issues with the plated bullets in big calibers because there is no crimping cannelure and a heavy crimp will break through the plating. And of course, too light of a crimp will cause bullet jump. In terms of dies, I have a hornady LnL progressive press and my 44 dies are a RCBS 3-die setup. I do not use a powder through expander and I have an RCBS powder-check lockout die in my remaining station. as far as I am aware, the RCBS 44 mag dies are only set up for roll crimp. Given that I'm aiming for 800-900 velocities, can I get away with the plated bullets and a light roll crimp without having terrible accuracy or bullet jump? Should I just forget the plated bullets and look for a covered-base or semi jacketed or TMJ 44 bullet the meets the indoor requirements?

Any thoughts or suggestions?

EDIT for additional info: In case it matters, I will likely be loading these over Trailboss or Unique. Though I also typically have Titegroup and Bullseye in my powder stash.

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PO2Hammer
October 11, 2011, 10:24 AM
I crimp plated bullets in .357 with no troubles. I'm using a Redding profile crimp dialed back to give a moderate taper crimp. In the bullets that I've recovered I can see the crimp line, looks like a knife edge has creased the bullet, but no plating has been stripped away and no leading or other fouling.

My shooting partner uses 200 grain plated flat points in his .44 magnum without issue, but I'm not sure of his crimp.

Minimize the flare at the case mouth so you have maximum bullet tension, then a light roll/taper crimp and keep the loads reasonable.

ReloaderFred
October 11, 2011, 11:03 AM
Yes, a light roll crimp will work for your intended purpose. As long as the crimp doesn't cut through the plating, there will be no detrimental effects to your bullet.

I have found that the Berry's plating seems to be a little thicker than the Rainier bullets, though.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Drail
October 11, 2011, 12:26 PM
"too light a crimp will cause bullet jump" If your bullets pull (or set back) it has almost nothing to do with the crimp. It is caused by insufficient case neck tension. Which is caused by over expanding the mouth (with an expander button that is oversize - most are) Measure your expander die's button. If it's not 3 or 4 thous. under bullet diameter chuck it in a drill and turn it down til it is. With sufficient neck tension gripping the bullet it will not move even with NO crimp applied. The crimp is good for maybe 10% of holding the bullet in place. Read some of Elmer Keith's writings on the subject of handloading for revolvers. That old man knew some amazing stuff about ammunition.

Walkalong
October 11, 2011, 01:53 PM
I taper crimp for plated bullets in revolver rounds. It is much more forgiving than a roll crimp. You can crimp much heavier if you want. Deburr and chamfer the brass.

What you want to do will work just fine.

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/429887/redding-taper-crimp-die-44-special-44-remington-magnum

Walkalong
October 11, 2011, 02:00 PM
This is .44 Spl, but it works just the same in .44 Mag cases.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6733446&postcount=85

Photoguy
October 11, 2011, 02:20 PM
Walkalong,

If I use that taper crimp die, I would need to either switch to a powder through expander or get rid of the powder-check lockout die. Got any suggestions as to which is the better path? I guess I really don't HAVE to use the powder-check die. But I do like having it there for double or zero charges. Especially if I start using unique, not as crucial if I'm using Trail Boss.

Also, how do you like those xtreme bullets? Can you compare them to Berrys or Rainier? I think those 200gn FP would make a might nice light 44 mag and usable 44 special round. But I've never used anything from xtreme.

Walkalong
October 11, 2011, 04:20 PM
That bullet shoots well for me in .44 Spl.. X-Treme makes good bullets, but so do Berrys and Rainer.

I have an LNL and I do not use a lock out die. I see every single charge I seat a bullet over. I use an LED light to shine down in the cases. With the LNL this is easy as it is right there in front as it goes to station number 4 to seat a bullet. When I crimp in a separate step I do it in station number five.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6490794&postcount=7

Super Sneaky Steve
October 11, 2011, 04:57 PM
I haven't made any magnum loads with my Berry's bullets because their website says I can't. It sure would be helpful if I could make a light .357 with these instead of the expensive jacketed ones.

Are you guys saying it's OK?

Photoguy
October 11, 2011, 06:14 PM
That bullet shoots well for me in .44 Spl.. X-Treme makes good bullets, but so do Berrys and Rainer.

Good to know. I've been happy with Rainier and Berrys but never tried xtreme. Good to get experienced feedback.

I have an LNL and I do not use a lock out die. I see every single charge I seat a bullet over. I use an LED light to shine down in the cases. With the LNL this is easy as it is right there in front as it goes to station number 4 to seat a bullet. When I crimp in a separate step I do it in station number five.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....94&postcount=7

THAT is a very clever idea. I think I will copy you. My thanks to you, sir.

Photoguy
October 11, 2011, 06:32 PM
I haven't made any magnum loads with my Berry's bullets because their website says I can't. It sure would be helpful if I could make a light .357 with these instead of the expensive jacketed ones.

Are you guys saying it's OK?

What I have read on Berry's website is this:

Velocities depend on the caliber, but as a rule of thumb, we recommend you don't shoot our plated bullets over 1200 feet-per-second. Our 44's actually shoot best around 1150 fps. 45's are generally good at 850-900 fps. Our bullets are not recommended for magnum velocities.

They don't say that you can't load them in magnum guns, just that you shouldn't load them to magnum velocities above the speeds stated. So, for example, I'm talking about making light shooting 44 magnum loads in the 800-900 range with these bullets. Low end of the 44 magnum velocity scale, but well within the range that are okay for Berrys, and other, plated bullets. I don't see anywhere that they list any other reason for concern loading their bullets for magnum guns (such as the type of thing I'm asking about here, crimp breaking through the plating).

Walkalong
October 11, 2011, 07:24 PM
THAT is a very clever idea. I think I will copy you. There are other folks here who have attached lights in other excellent ways. The thing is to get good light where you need it.

They don't say that you can't load them in magnum guns, just that you shouldn't load them to magnum velocities above the speeds stated.
Right. You can push any plated .44 bullet at .44 Spl velocities with no trouble and no problems. And of course it doesn't matter whether it is Spl or Mag brass, or which caliber gun. :)

DSinOR
October 19, 2011, 10:21 AM
I'm also interested in a 44 light load for an upcoming target competition.

Using what I have on hand:

6" Ruger Blackhawk. RP brass, trimmed, chamfered, de-burred. 220gr Berrys FP. Bullseye, Titegroup, H-110, or Unique.

Which powder seems best for light load in the 950 - 1150 range?

Coal?

Thanks!

Funshooter45
October 19, 2011, 10:30 AM
W-231 has an extremely broad load range for 44 mag. I have loaded some real creampuff loads with it all the way up to nearly 1100 fps. But the one that I prefer now is Universal. It is excellent in that mid range around 1000 fps or so.

DSinOR
October 19, 2011, 10:45 AM
Thanks FS, but my plan is to choose from the powder I have on hand.

Walkalong
October 19, 2011, 11:23 AM
Of the powders you have:

H-110 is unsuitable.

Titegroup or Bullseye will both work, but there is room in the case for a triple charge. I like Bullseye, but am not a Titegroup fan. Many people like it though. (These two might not get you 1150 though)

Unique is what I would use. It is bulkier, and will wok great. :)

Assuming .44 Mag brass and gun.

PO2Hammer
October 19, 2011, 09:25 PM
I've had Rainier plated .38 Super bullets up to 1,250 fps with no trouble at all.

Hondo 60
October 19, 2011, 09:55 PM
That bullet shoots well for me in .44 Spl.. X-Treme makes good bullets, but so do Berrys and Rainer.

I'm currently using X-treme 200 gr RN for my 1911-45acp.
They're working out just fine.

I've also used Berry's & HSM plated bullets for 357 mag.
I load 'em to about 1100 fps or so.
So far they've been good.

Still wish Berry's would put a cannelure on 'em.

Walkalong
October 19, 2011, 10:28 PM
I'm currently using X-treme 200 gr RN for my 1911-45acp.
They're working out just fine.
Excellent, cause I ordered 1K the other night, along with 1K of the .38 cal 158 Gr SWC. Should be here tomorrow or Friday.

I shot some X-Treme 255's in .45 Colt today after work, and ringing the 10" steel plate at 45 yards with my 25-5 with Siles grips (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=114633&d=1265035956) was childs play.

ssyoumans
November 11, 2011, 09:38 AM
I'd like to use some 240gr Berry's in my Marlin 1894. Kind of tired of shooting XTPs and I don't like lead in my rifles (yes, millions of people do, I'm just not one of them; fine for my handguns). Anyone loading them up for the 1894 and have much success?

I usually load 10gr of Unique but that scoots out at nearly 1400 fps, in order to hold to this 1200 fps rule, I guess I need to drop down to 7-8gr? Anyone have a suggestion? I do have bullseye and 231 available too.

ssyoumans
November 11, 2011, 09:52 AM
Anyone know if the "Power Bond" brand of plated bullets can be fired at higher velocities? I didn't see any data on it on their website. Would I be able to load at 10.0gr unique for 1400fps out of a 1894 or am I going to have plating problems from the velocity or setback problems from the recoil? Hmmm?

Seedtick
November 11, 2011, 02:29 PM
Anyone know if the "Power Bond" brand of plated bullets can be fired at higher velocities? I didn't see any data on it on their website. Would I be able to load at 10.0gr unique for 1400fps out of a 1894 or am I going to have plating problems from the velocity or setback problems from the recoil? Hmmm?

I've been getting my PowerBond bullets from Rocky Mountain Reloading (http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/main.sc;jsessionid=17908626DCC31F4CE588A992F0DF4A81.qscstrfrnt01). Jake, longdayjake, said they could be loaded like jacketed bullets and that's the way I've been loading them.

I have have had good success with them in .357 mag, 9mm, and 45 Colt Ruger Only loads. My son-in-law uses them in 40 S&W and 44 mag. We really like them.

HTH

Seedtick

:)

Walkalong
November 11, 2011, 03:55 PM
I'm currently using X-treme 200 gr RN for my 1911-45acp.
They're working out just fine.
Excellent, cause I ordered 1K the other night,
Update. My Colt Series 80 Enhanced absolutely loves these. :D

Anyone know if the "Power Bond" brand of plated bullets can be fired at higher velocities? I have pushed their 125 Gr .357 bullet at close to 1400 FPS with excellent accuracy. I used a heavy taper crimp (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5942202&postcount=37).

edfardos
November 11, 2011, 10:21 PM
I use berry's in 40 s&W and xtreme in 44mag. Xtreme bullets should mot be pushed past 1500fps. A full load of h110 under a .44 xtreme 240 is 1430fps out of a super redhawk. I apply a medium roll crimp to the 44 mags, mostly because I use a slow powder. Faster powders might not require any crimp. Put two rounds in the revolver, fire one, then measure the length of the unfired round. If it's longer by .01", then increase th crimp.

my experience,

edfardos

Hondo 60
November 11, 2011, 10:41 PM
I've used Power Bonds in my Redhawk 44 Magnum.
I can't remember if it was Walkalong or rcmodel who recommended them.

Pushin em to about 1100 - 1150 fps so far they're pretty accurate.
No issues with pushin a plated bullet.

Mr.Revolverguy
November 13, 2011, 08:20 AM
I have shot plenty of X-Treme plated bullets in 44 and 357. They add a cannelure for crimping.

korny351
November 13, 2011, 02:43 PM
If I use that taper crimp die, I would need to either switch to a powder through expander or get rid of the powder-check lockout die. Got any suggestions as to which is the better path?

Used to use Lee dies in my LNL AP and the Powder thru Expander really caused my press to jump upon extraction. Note: I was using this strictly for belling the case mouth in a separate station from the powder drop. I've since started using the Hornady PTX in conjunction with the powder drop and it has been working flawlessly with much less effort. Some people have had problems with these PTX's early on, but they have been re-engineered since then. This opened up a station for the addition of a powder check die. I just haven't decided on which one, yet.

Mr.Revolverguy
November 13, 2011, 06:33 PM
Krony

Are you sure about the reengineering? I got a PTX and no matter how many times I spoke with Hornady or looked at the instructions I found the PTX to suck so I am using the lee die to feel the case mouth. It is not jumping on me very smooth.

Outside of the PTX I love my hornady LnL AP.

Walkalong
November 13, 2011, 08:18 PM
I use regular expanders in my LNL in station #2. I drop powder in # 3, then seat in # 4.

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