It's all my levergun's fault really....


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MacTech
October 11, 2011, 07:44 PM
I just recently, in the past month or so have traded off a few lesser-used rifles and picked up first, a Marlin 39A lever action .22, and a few days ago, a Marlin 336 in 30-30

Anyway, long story short, I've always been a traditionalist when it comes to shooting, revolvers, levers, bolts, manual action guns just speak to me, I also like keeping things simple, I really *love* the idea of having a revolver and levergun chambered for the same cartridge, and I've been seriously considering doing some more strategic trades

I'm thinking of a couple possibilities;

Trade my Ruger Blackhawk .45 Convertible towards either a .44 Magnum revolver or a .357 Magnum revolver, and trade in another lesser used rifle or two towards a levergun chambered in the same cartridge

I know that Marlin makes a .45 Colt levergun, but I tried one out, and it felt so small and cramped, even more cramped than my 39A .22, plus, from what I've read, the .45 Colt in a levergun is a 100 yard gun at best....

So it comes down to this, *IF* I did decide to do some strategic trades (still mulling over the pros and cons) is it better to go .357 Mag or .44 Mag?

the advantage of .357 Mag is I'd be getting a potent cartridge in both revolver and rifle, it's cheap to reload for, problem is, I have no supply of small pistol primers, brass, bullets or the dies

The advantage of .44 Mag is first off, it's a caliber that starts with a ".4" ;) , and I'm a big fan of the "forty-something" cartridge, and more importantly, it uses large pistol primers, which I have a good supply of, all I'd need is brass, bullets, and the dies, plus, the .44 Mag is just plain......cool,

the lure of ammo commonality is strong, but is it worth going through the annoyance of switching from .45 Colt to .44 Mag or .357 Mag?

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Crazy Carl
October 11, 2011, 08:19 PM
Marlin in .357 or .44 is the same size as the .45. Just sayin....

Also, since you reload, you can get that .45 runnin' hotter than the .44, with less pressure. Why do you think the .357 or .44 would be any better past 100yds, than the .45?

If you didn't like the Marlin 1894, check out a Rossi 92. Again, the Rossi, like the Marlin, is gonna be the same physical size, regardless of caliber.

Were I you? Keep the .45 BH & find a Marlin 1894 in .45.

David E
October 11, 2011, 08:31 PM
I thought a .45 Colt lever gun could not safely handle "Ruger Only" loads....

osteodoc08
October 11, 2011, 08:46 PM
Don't forget to look at twist rates. I don't have specs in front of me, but some lever actions in pistol calibers have been known to have an overall very slow twist, hence, some with a poor accuracy reputation

Gryffydd
October 11, 2011, 09:02 PM
I thought a .45 Colt lever gun could not safely handle "Ruger Only" loads....
Depends on the levergun. The general consensus seems to be 40,000 CUP in Marlin 1894s, and 50,000 in modern 1892s. I'm only phone or I would link to a couple of articles.
Edit: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

Lawdawg45
October 11, 2011, 09:05 PM
"I thought a .45 Colt lever gun could not safely handle "Ruger Only" loads.... "

Per the company President, the Henry Big Boy will handle anything the Blackhawk or old Vaquero can. To the OP, if you plan on hunting with your lever gun, the Marlin is the only one ready to receive a scope.;)

LD

rcmodel
October 11, 2011, 09:23 PM
The general consensus seems to be 40,000 CUP in Marlin 1894s, and 50,000 in modern 1892s.Who conceded that?

The 92 is no stronger then the 1894 in larger calibers like .44 Mag or .45 Colt.

The weakest link in most all lever-guns is the barrel shank threads & mag tube hole in the front receiver ring. The bigger the cartridge rim is, the less metal the barrel shank and receiver threads have left in them.

Either one is safe with "Ruger Only" loads.

Neither one is safe with 50,000 PSI Ruger #1 loads.

rc

Gryffydd
October 11, 2011, 09:58 PM
Who conceded that?
Hey, I never said it was unanimous.
I take it then you disagree with Paco on his assessment of the relative strengths of the Marlin 1894 and modern '92s?
In any case, I haven't seen a Ruger #1 in .45 Colt, so I haven't seen any load data there.

BCRider
October 11, 2011, 11:03 PM
MacTech, as you're finding out there's really nothing at all shabby about a .45Colt running up at the SAMMI limit even when compared to .44Mag. Oh sure, the .44Mag can max out the pressure and get more velocity. But a lot of folks aren't all that comfy with shooting the hottest .44Mag loads. If you're one of those and find that full SAMMI power regular .45Colts from your present Blackhawk are just fine then a lever gun in .45Colt would not be such a bad option.

If you read around you'll find that NONE of the handgun caliber rifles are considered to be any good much past 100 to 150 yards in terms of making humane kills. According to these folks the bullets are just too blunt and stubby to retain enough velocity for a certain through and through wound such that you're sure of a quick takedown.

For pllnking though I can tell you that my .357 mag rounds from a '92 only needed about 8 inches of holdover to hit a 200 yard gong.

Another option if you like "roomy" rifles would be to get one of the 1873 lever guns sold by Uberti or Cimarron. They don't come chambered in .44Mag, as far as I know, but they are in .45Colt. And compared to the '92 they feel postively LOOOOONG! Or wait until a Winchester 94 chambered in either .45Colt or .44Mag shows up.

MacTech
October 12, 2011, 12:02 AM
Good to know that the distance limitation for the handgun caliber levers seems to be across the board and not just the .45 Colt, that makes my decision a lot easier, just save up for a nice used .45 Colt lever

Thanks for the tip on the full size Uberti and Cimmaron guns, I'll have to check them out, as the .45 Colt Marlin felt very cramped to me

il_10
October 12, 2011, 12:36 PM
You might also want to check out the leverevolution rounds. They'll supposedly extend your range a touch.

BCRider
October 12, 2011, 02:37 PM
Or at least make the "iffy" 150 to 160 yard shots more certain....

bluetopper
October 12, 2011, 11:25 PM
The most versatile handgun/lever action cartridge there has ever been for a reloader, the 44 Magnum. It's really a no brainer.

olafhardtB
October 13, 2011, 06:37 AM
My Rossi 357 kicked about as hard as my Win 94 30-30. I don't see any practicle advantage to a revolver cartridge in a carbine. Frank James did, but I don't go on long horse back rides to rob banks. IMHO the 30-30 is the best carbine round available and the 357 is the best revolver round and I have enough pockets to carry cartridges for both YMMV.

oldfool
October 13, 2011, 09:37 AM
I don't see a whole lot of point, either, in going to a handgun cartridge rifle if what you really want is rifle caliber performance, but I do see a whole lot of value in having match caliber revolvers and carbines. Lots of us do that. No harm in having both. I myself consider all of the revolver cartridge carbines to be essentially 100 yards guns, not longer range hunting tools, although you can stretch that distance, same as you can stretch the range of any rifle cartridge.

As to which caliber lever action, any mentioned will do fine. For me, the 357 is great, but no great reason for you to switch from 45LC.

as for recoil, my 357 mag Rossi '92 kicks substantially less than my heavier Marlin 30-30.
(though neither is a a felt recoil issue for most folks)
YMMV

as for action strengths and CUP, I will leave that to others to debate, but a '92 can/will handle 454 Casull (ask Paco)

DWFan
October 13, 2011, 10:41 AM
Split the difference. Get a .44 Mag 1892 and swap the barrel out for a .357 Mag barrel chambered in .357-44 Bain & Davis. You'll easily have .357 Maximum, if not .357 Herrett/.35 Remington, ballistics. The .357-44 Bain & Davis works in the Blackhawk as well.
If you'd rather work with .45 Colt brass, do the same thing and make a rimmed version of the .357 AMP (AutoMag) but I've never heard of this cartridge being tried in the Blackhawk so I don't know if it would work for the revolver..

CraigC
October 14, 2011, 04:18 PM
The 92 is no stronger then the 1894 in larger calibers like .44 Mag or .45 Colt.
It is. The 1892 is fully capable of digesting loads in the 50,000psi range.

Ten or fifteen years ago, all the major manufacturers were trying to make the .454 work in existing leverguns. Neither the Marlin 336, Marlin 1894, Winchester 94 Big Bore would last very long. Some not more than a handful of rounds before they started shaking themselves loose. The big 1886 worked fine but was too large for the cartridge and offered nothing over the .45/70. The modern 1892 action was the only rifle strong enough to handle the pressures involved. The weakest link is not the barrel shank, it is the locking lugs. Due to the angled lugs of the Winchester 94, for example, they would loosen up rather quickly and the receiver will actually begin to stretch laterally. Only the massive vertical (important design feature!) locking lugs of the 1892 and 1886 provide the necessary strength and resistance to stretching.

Far as we know, there were no major design or metallurgical changes made for LSI to market the .454 and .480 Puma rifles.

xtratoy
October 15, 2011, 03:39 PM
My Rossi 92 is a pussycat to shoot with any load up to 180 grain that I have shot. On the other hand I have always felt that my Win 30-30 kicked like a little mule. The 30-30 never bothered me while hunting but running a couple of boxes through it just plinking around lets you know it has some kick.

MCgunner
October 15, 2011, 05:14 PM
25 years ago I bought a Rossi 92 in .357 magnum. I replaced the rear sight with a ghost ring aperture with a repeatable micrometer click elevation knob. I can shoot a 105 grain SWC (Lee mold) at 900 fps over 2.3 grains of bullseye for 1.5" 50 yard groups and go squirrel or rabbit hunting. I can switch to my 165 grain Lee gas checked SWC over 16.8 grains L'il Gun for 1900 fps and go hog/deer hunting. That load groups 4" at 100 yards. I also have a 6.5" Blackhawk just to match it for looks. :D I love the 92 action and the looks of the gun, very smooth and an accurate, versatile rifle.

As a testament to the strength of the 92 action, it is offered by Rossi in .454 Casull and .480 Ruger calibers.

For versatility, NOTING ON THE PLANET beats the .357 magnum. :D A .44 can't squirrel hunt as well and can't kill a hog any deader.

MCgunner
October 15, 2011, 05:23 PM
The 92 is no stronger then the 1894 in larger calibers like .44 Mag or .45 Colt.

What about in .454 Casull?

CraigC
October 15, 2011, 06:15 PM
A .44 can't squirrel hunt as well and can't kill a hog any deader.
Yes but the .357 has not been used to take the African Big Five either. ;)

MCgunner
October 15, 2011, 06:36 PM
Not many elephants in Texas. Saw one in Houston and one iin San Antonio....in the zoo.;) Besides, were I taking on an elephant, a Marlin 94 in .44 mag would be WAY DOWN my list of to have rifles. :scrutiny:

CraigC
October 16, 2011, 12:56 AM
I would no sooner hunt squirrels with a .357 than I would elephants with a .44 but you can't dismiss the .44's utility because it's capable of taking critters bigger than those that live in your zip code. You can always load the .44 down to whatever level desired but the .357 certainly will never grow up to be a .44.

JustsayMo
October 16, 2011, 11:48 AM
I personally would keep the 45 Blackhawk and get an 1894 in the same caliber. I started with a 357 1894 and Blackhawk. Both great guns in a great caliber but I really didn't like the 357 in the Blackhawk - too much gun for the caliber, heavy and big. I love it in an SP101 and there are other great 357 DA revolvers but my preference is for a SA in the field.

357 Leverguns are a bit heavier than their 44/45 cal brethren but make up for with much lighter weight ammo. The 357 really is excellent out of a levergun too and the versatility has been well represented earlier in this thread.

Still my "matched pair" is a Marlin 1894 and Ruger New Vaquero in 45 Colt. I really liked my 44 1894 too but like the 357 was a bit finicky about what it would feed and shoot well. The 45 Colt 1894 shoots and feeds everything well. Round ball loads right up to 325 grain WFP's. It'll even cycle over length Keith Style SWC's. There are literally dozens of good 45 caliber bullets, both lead and jacketed out there. The guns are lighter but 50 rounds of 45 Colt is 3 pounds or more depending on the bullet weight.

Range is only limited by the rifleman. A feller won our monthly silhouette match a few years back with a 45 Colt rifle in the RIFLE caliber class. He had NO trouble with the 200 yard Rams and the heavy bullet knocked them down easily. The 357s need to be hot loaded to take on the Rams or they'll just ring them.

I'd have a hard time picking just between them. Based on what I currently own it looks like I chose the 45 Colt and the 22 lr (39 & Single Six).

In reality I rarely carry the same caliber rifle/pistol in the field. Usually it's a centerfire and a 22 as its companion.

Fun to ponder. I doubt you can really go wrong with whatever you choose.

MCgunner
October 17, 2011, 07:47 AM
I would no sooner hunt squirrels with a .357 than I would elephants with a .44 but you can't dismiss the .44's utility because it's capable of taking critters bigger than those that live in your zip code.

Sure I can. I don't use the rifle in Africa. I have never been to Africa, cannot afford to go to Africa, and never will go to Africa. :rolleyes: The .357 is near light .35 Remington levels loaded to 1900 fps with a 165 brain bullet. Buffalo Bore's 158 grain load from an 18.5" Marlin clocks over 2100 fps! That's factory .30-30 territory. Inside 100 yards, my .357 will take anything I'll run across with it.

As for not shooting squirrel with a .357, I don't either. I load that 105 SWC in .38 brass and push it at 900 fps. It is as good at squirrel hunting as any .22, not quite as accurate as my Remington, but as accurate as my 10/22. :D Hell, Danial Boone's buddies hunted 'em with a .31 caliber "squirrel rifle, ya know. He didn't use a .43, a little much for squirrel. Hey, squirrel to hogs, that's versatility! If I go elk hunting, I'll take my 7mm remington magnum or my .308 M7 stainless Remington, thanks. I've taken both hogs and deer with the little carbine, though. Never actually shot a squirrel with it, prefer my .22 Ruger Mk 2 for that, but have taken some rabbit with it.

BTW, why isn't this thread in "Rifles"? Oh, something about a revolver that goes with a rifle? Hmm, I lost track, sorry. :D

CraigC
October 17, 2011, 09:03 AM
You can certainly load light .44Spl's for small game but you can't load the .357 up for moose. ;)

MCgunner
October 17, 2011, 04:00 PM
I have a 7mm Rem Mag, maybe not quite what most would take moose hunting (300WM minimum), but beats the hell out of a .44. And, I ain't seen any moose in Texas. There are some Nilgai. They're kinda mean and most ranches that hunt them won't let you use less than .300 win mag. They'd definitely put a foot down if you said .44 mag. :rolleyes:

If there were moose in Texas, I wouldn't be the one hunting 'em with a .44, I can tell ya that. If a .44 can kill it reasonably, a .357 can. End of story. Moose were killed by DB Wesson after inventing and producing the first .357 handguns. He killed everything on the North American continent with it, as the story goes. If a handgun can do it, reckon a rifle can?

Personally, I think 7 mag is enough for moose using a good controlled expansion bullet like the Nosler 160 partition. My Savage shoots those 1 MOA. And, with my Leupold VariX 3, I can put 'em where it counts. But, I don't really use that gun much. I could always rebarrel it to .338 Win Mag. I'll let you do the moose hunting with the .44 mag.

MCgunner
October 17, 2011, 04:17 PM
Another thought....how many grizzly bear, moose, etc, you reckon have been killed by the .30-30? It's all the natives in northern Alaska used for many years. It wasn't the arrow, t'was the Indian, maybe? :D Still, if I gotta face down a griz (none in Texas), and I gotta use a lever gun, I'm STARTING at .45-70, not .44 magnum. Even that .45-70 would feel mighty light against one of those things. But, lots of griz were killed with the lowly .30-30 pushing a 170 grain bullet along at 2100 fps tops.

CraigC
October 17, 2011, 04:30 PM
They'd definitely put a foot down if you said .44 mag.
Then they would do so out of pure ignorance. :rolleyes:


If a .44 can kill it reasonably, a .357 can. End of story.
On what planet???

leeroy71
October 18, 2011, 12:28 PM
Too may opinions. Not enough advice. OP has already stated he has a 336 in 30-30.
If you want more butt than a 30-30 has then a revolver/rifle caliber won't cut it.
But just for fun or "matched" pair, keep the 45lc and try a Marlin 1894 "cowboy" model.

BTW. Why does Mr Craig C always argue with every one on every thread?

CraigC
October 18, 2011, 02:13 PM
Why does Mr Craig C always argue with every one on every thread?
Not everyone, only those who spread information that is untrue.

This one is easy, the notion that the .44Mag carbine is unsuitable for moose is laughable. Too many energy worshippers. :rolleyes:

MCgunner
October 18, 2011, 09:55 PM
Hunt moose however you want. Like I say, DB Wesson killed 'em with a .357 revolver. :rolleyes: Neither is my first choice in a hunting rifle, but I've taken hogs and deer with mine and my handguns in .357. I just think that a handgun/lever gun combo in .357 IS more versatile. It can double as a deer rifle or a .22 depending on the load. The .43 is a bit much for small game shooting any available .429" bullet from a .44 special. That was my point, not that I'm ever going to go elephant hunting with it. :rolleyes:

You've proved your .44 magnum fanboy status. Move on, now. Neither is a BAD choice and, hell, there's the .45 COLT or the .454 Casull if you REALLY wanna hunt bigger stuff with it.

MCgunner
October 18, 2011, 10:01 PM
Or hell, how about a .45-70 guide gun and this?

http://www.magnumresearch.com/Expand.asp?ProductCode=BFR45-707

CraigC
October 18, 2011, 11:15 PM
You've proved your .44 magnum fanboy status.
No, I'm just more educated on the subject that those who spread misinformation. The discussion would've been the same for any big bore revolver cartridge, .41Mag and above. Apparently there are still a lot of folks for whom it is a completely foreign concept that you can actually hunt large game with a handgun. Like I said, energy worshippers.

MCgunner
October 18, 2011, 11:43 PM
Educated, ah? :rolleyes: So now you're calling me a STUPID liar?


Ah, edit out the incivility, probably some 12 year old passed his bedtime.....

CraigC
October 19, 2011, 08:47 AM
Educated, ah? So now you're calling me a STUPID liar?
No, I'm not calling you anything and there is no reason to get hostile. All I'm saying is that if you think the .44Mag is incapable of handling game like moose, your knowledge on the subject is lacking. Or that you are hung up on energy figures.


Ah, edit out the incivility, probably some 12 year old passed his bedtime.....
Yes, because it would be far easier to dismiss everything I've said by some ludicrous accusation than to actually consider the possibility that you could be wrong. The fact that you said that anything that could be killed with a .44Mag could be killed with a .357 makes YOU sound like the 12yr old. :rolleyes:


Bottom line, like the old adage, you can handload the .44Mag for everything from "mice to moose". The .357, while an excellent levergun cartridge, not so much. Mice to deer would be more accurate. That and 20yrs experience with the cartridge, tells me that it is more versatile.

Brian Williams
October 19, 2011, 09:13 AM
On what planet???
Guys check out what Major Doug Wesson (one of the Smith & Wesson Wessons)did with a 357 revolver a few years back....
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/357magnum.htm

357 Magnum Testimonials from earlier days

1935
Major Douglas Wesson

Antelope - 200 yards (2 shots)

Elk - 130 yards (1 shot)

Moose - 100 yards (1 shot)

Grizzly Bear - 135 yards (1 shot)

The Antelope was hit the first time at 125 yards. It ran, stopped and was shot the second time at 200 yards. The second shot killed it.

The Bull Elk was killed with one shot through the lungs.

The Moose was shot in the chest near the base of the neck. It cut the 2nd rib, passed through both lungs, sheared the 8th rib on the off side and stopped just under the hide. No follow-up shot was required.

These animals were taken on a Fall hunt in Wyoming, near the West entrance of Yellowstone Park. The Grizzly was taken later in Canada.

The above game was taken using factory loads which were a 158 gr. bullet at 1515 fps from an 8 3/4" barreled S&W producing 812 ft. lbs of muzzle energy. (S&W later shortened the barrels to 8 3/8" as we have today)

To those who criticized, the Major replied that they "..had not the slightest conception of what we have accomplished in ballistics.." - a statement that still applies today.

1936
Elmer Keith

"When the new .357 cartridge and gun came out I gave it a very thorough tryout ... and found it had more actual knockdown killing power on all game that I shot with it than any other factory loaded, real revolver cartridge on the market.... (It) proved to have much more actual shock effect and killing power ...than any factory loaded revolver or auto pistol cartridge including the .44 Special and the .45 Colt..."

Sixgun Cartridges and Loads pages 29 & 30

1938
Walter Sykes

Wildebeest - 100 yards - complete penetration, knockdown on the first shot.

His Guide, John Hunter (of "HUNTER" and "AFRICA AS I HAVE FOUND IT") wrote that the .357 was "the one and only hand-arm for African hunting"...

1938
Sasha Siemel - Professional Hunter in South America

6 Tigres - Amazon Jaguar's - using the S&W .357 Magnum

He wrote, "...It does all the work of a rifle and is light and easy to carry.."

WW II
General George Patton

He referred to his S&W .357 Magnum as his "killing machine"....

1980
Skeeter Skelton

"No automatic cartridge is as powerful as the .357 Magnum........Years ago I stated that if I could have only one gun, it would be a Model 27 S&W."

Skeeter Skelton on Handguns page 16

CraigC
October 19, 2011, 09:40 AM
Read that article and many more on Leverguns.com. Keith's books, including the above quoted Sixgun Cartridges & Loads, are on my desk at present. What Major Wesson did with a .357 back in the early days is amazing but it still doesn't make the cartridge the .44Mag's equal. That is just plain silly as it can be and no recognized authority will ever agree that it is so. Nor will one recommend it for anything larger than deer-sized game. No amount of wishful thinking will make it so.

Max loads:
.357 - 173gr at 1400fps - TKO 12.4 - ME 753ft-lbs (for those of you who care)
.44 - 355gr at 1250fps - TKO 27.3 - ME 1232ft-lbs (because I don't ;))

Which is about like comparing the .243 to a .375H&H.

It's also worth mentioning that Keith said he liked the .357 better than any other "factory load". Factory loads for the .44Spl and .45Colt, at the time, were still very conservative and the bullets were not very good. He still liked his famous .44Spl handload better than anything else until the .44Mag came along in 1956.

Brian Williams
October 19, 2011, 09:46 AM
Where are you getting 355g 44 mags?

Brian Williams
October 19, 2011, 09:50 AM
OBTW back to the original post, if you think a 45 version of a 1894 is cramping our style, any of the others will also.
keep the 45 and get a marlin in 45 colt and have a nice leather butt pad put on and make the stock longer. A 45 Colt will beat a 43 mag any day if you handload.

CraigC
October 19, 2011, 10:01 AM
At maximum levels, 40,000CUP for the .44Mag and 32,000CUP for the .45Colt, the .44Mag will retain at least a 100fps advantage with comparable bullet weights. Moreover, in the heaviest practical cast bullets for each, (360gr .45 vs 355gr .44) the .44Mag has a definite advantage in sectional density. The 360gr .45 is actually closer to the 330gr .44, which can be driven 200fps faster at standard pressures (1350fps vs 1150fps). Each has its own minute advantage over the other, giving the nod to neither. They are very, very close in performance.


Where are you getting 355g 44 mags?
Beartooth. Data from Hodgdon.
http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/sixgunsiii/large/IMG_7803b.jpg

MCgunner
October 19, 2011, 10:22 AM
What Major Wesson did with a .357 back in the early days is amazing but it still doesn't make the cartridge the .44Mag's equal.

For the record, I never said the .357 was the .44's equal. What I said was, from a rifle, it'll kill a deer as dead as a .44. Both have a rather limited range, of course. I also claim that the .357 in a lever gun is more versatile as it makes a better light load for small game. That's all I claim. I don't claim it's as good an elephant or moose gun. Lord knows, the popularity of the .44 mag for dangerous game is unequaled. :rolleyes:

Anyway, a .45 Colt can exceed .44 magnum and makes a bigger hole since you think that's important. I don't push my .45 Colt too hot in my Ruger Blackhawk, but in a Freedom arms revolver, it can kick sand on the .44. The 92 action is also fully capable of handling those "Ruger only" loads.

I'm sorry I don't own a .44. My loss I'm sure. Don't feel I need one, though. I guess I'll just go on wounding and torturing game with less guns like .308s and such.

CraigC
October 19, 2011, 10:50 AM
No, you said:
"If a .44 can kill it reasonably, a .357 can. End of story."

I wouldn't exactly go comparing a $500 six-shot .44Mag to a $2000 five-shot .45Colt capable of digesting 55,000psi loads either. If we're gonna compare apples to apples, then the .44Mag Freedom Arms can be loaded well above SAAMI standard pressures. Think 255's@1784fps and 300's@1600fps. Very comparable to five-shot .45Colt loads, the .44 just needed a 2" longer barrel length to do it. Unfortunately, in this chambering, it is limited by case capacity. The .45Colt really only shades the .44Mag by any appreciable amount at these pressure levels and really only when comparing FA's or $2500-$3000 custom five-shots to $500 factory Ruger .44Mag's. Or 55,000psi to 36,000psi.

http://www.singleactions.com/files/FiveShot45Colts.pdf


The 92 action is also fully capable of handling those "Ruger only"
As stated before, the 92 action is capable of much more.

MCgunner
October 19, 2011, 01:47 PM
No, you said:
"If a .44 can kill it reasonably, a .357 can. End of story."

Yep, hogs and deer, that's what I mean. This is why I like the .357 over the .44. I do not consider either caliber adequate for bigger than deer/hog/black bear sized game, anyway. YMMV If you hunt a lot of elephants and feel the .44 is enough for that, go for it. Maybe I'll read about you in the obits.

And, now you're changing the requirements to a 500 dollar max cost? A freedom Arms revolver can be had for under 1500, BTW, last time I checked.

olafhardtB
October 20, 2011, 02:20 AM
Iwish to point out the absurdity of the TKO and all other momentum based measurements of firearm effectiveness. The momentum, mass x velocity, of the gun AIWAYS exceeds that of the bullet. Therefore the "knock out" of the gun should injure the shooter more than the bullet injures the shot. Some like to include area of the bullet in the formula which winds up proving a basket ball deadlier than a 357.My personal formula is if the critter dies quickly the gun was effective that time.

CraigC
October 20, 2011, 09:04 AM
TKO is a useful tool for comparing big bore cartridges firing non-expanding bullets to each other. As was originally intended. It is only viable within certain parameters. Not for high velocity cartridges firing expanding bullets and not for basketballs. No, it ain't perfect but it's a hell of a lot more useful than energy, which is far too dependent upon velocity.

MCgunner
October 20, 2011, 12:46 PM
I'll whack 'em and stack 'em with my .257 Roberts out to a full 400 yards on deer/hogs. It shoots a 100 grain bullet at 3150 fps MV. It is a superior hunting weapon to any .44 mag carbine. Don't hurt that it is a 1/2MOA rifle, either. I'm 59 years old, killed my first deer with it at age 11. It killed dozens, from 25 yards to 400 yards, for my grandpa and it has killed dozens since.

Yes, energy is important in rifles, far more so than handguns. And, the .357 magnum is NOT the same cartridge fired from a 20" barrel as it is from a 2" snub. Neither is the .44 mag. The slowish powders used in the magnum revolver calibers beg for more barrel length to show their stuff. The .44 mag from a rifle is in the 1800 ft lb category. That's as much as a factory load .30-30, after all. It ain't just the big bullet working for you there. Range, however, is quite limited by the atrocious ballistic coefficients of pistol bullets. They're pretty well spent by 100 or a tad more yards.

I'm not dissing the .44, it's a good caliber for what it is. But, it ain't the end all in hunting rifles. There are FAR better choices out there in hunting calibers. I own a 7mm Rem Mag, a .308 Winchester, the .257 Roberts, a couple of SKSs in 7.62x39 and some mil surp stuff in 8x57 and have owned other calibers in the past. They all work on deer/hog quite well, better than .357 magnum because of the added range and energy, not due to more bullet weight or diameter. I've only killed a few deer with the .357. Currently, I'm working on trying to bag one with a real thumper, 385 grain .50 cal in front of 90 grains of 777. :D I'm gonna get it done THIS year....

Sorry, I know this thread is TOTALLY hijacked at this point. I still recommend the .357 to the OP, though, not for superior big game efficiency, but for versatility and fun and less ammo cost and some other reasons.

robctwo
October 20, 2011, 01:08 PM
I'm taking my Rossi 1892 .45 Colt out tomorrow for Western Oregon blacktail. I have a modest load of 10.5 Universal and a 255 gr lswc running around 1,200 fps. I have some 340 gr loaded to 1,300 fps with 2400 which will work for most of my other needs.

I like the little carbine for a brush gun, and we still have most all the leaves on the trees and brush.

I traded a .44 mag for a Ruger BH convertible in .45 Colt/ACP a couple years back and have never regretted going .45 over .44.

MCgunner
October 20, 2011, 01:28 PM
One thing I like about a .45 Colt combo over a .44 mag is the size of the handguns. MOST .44 mag single actions are beefier. The super blackhawk is a big, heavy gun compared to a standard Blackhawk. Of course, too, the .45 Colt was actually USED in rifles and handguns back in the day, though .44-40 and .38-40 were more popular in that regard. .44-40 would be a good choice for a combo, but one would need to handload it to keep ammo costs down, not to mention availability, though it can be ordered off the net. I handload everything I own, anyway. :D

CraigC
October 20, 2011, 01:35 PM
One thing I like about a .45 Colt combo over a .44 mag is the size of the handguns. MOST .44 mag single actions are beefier. The super blackhawk is a big, heavy gun compared to a standard Blackhawk. Of course, too, the .45 Colt was actually USED in rifles and handguns back in the day, though .44-40 and .38-40 were more popular in that regard. .44-40 would be a good choice for a combo, but one would need to handload it to keep ammo costs down, not to mention availability, though it can be ordered off the net. I handload everything I own, anyway.
The .45Colt was never chambered in rifles until modern times, due to its tiny rim. It needed solid head brass with an extractor rim to function properly in a repeating rifle. The .45Colt is a historic sixgun cartridge, its use in rifles is not.

The Super Blackhawk and Blackhawk .45Colt are the exact same size and built on the same frame. The only difference is that the Super is all steel, whereas the blued .45 Blackhawk has an aluminum grip frame and ejector housing. So it is lighter, by six or seven ounces.

The new limited run, distributor special, mid-frame flat-top .45 convertibles not withstanding.

MCgunner
October 20, 2011, 01:57 PM
The .45Colt was never chambered in rifles until modern times, due to its tiny rim. It needed solid head brass with an extractor rim to function properly in a repeating rifle. The .45Colt is a historic sixgun cartridge, its use in rifles is not.

I stand corrected.


The Super Blackhawk and Blackhawk .45Colt are the exact same size and built on the same frame. The only difference is that the Super is all steel, whereas the blued .45 Blackhawk has an aluminum grip frame and ejector housing. So it is lighter, by six or seven ounces.

My bud's .44 Super Blackhawk is heavier than my Blackhawks and my .45 has a stainless grip frame. His is one of the older square back trigger guard guns. There are older .44 flat tops and, I guess, Ruger has brought 'em back? That's good to know. I'll keep my .45 Colt blackhawk, though. :D I know it's vastly inferior to the almighty MAGNUM, but I've got money in it. Even engraved my initials on the bottom of the grip, I liked it so much. I reckon I "need" another 92 to team up with it.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2j4sqxx.jpg

GP100Wii
October 21, 2011, 01:20 AM
I have a Gp100 357 and Henry Big Boy 357 -- highly recommend this combo.

Gryffydd
October 21, 2011, 03:01 AM
The Super Blackhawk and Blackhawk .45Colt are the exact same size and built on the same frame. The only difference is that the Super is all steel, whereas the blued .45 Blackhawk has an aluminum grip frame and ejector housing. So it is lighter, by six or seven ounces.
If I'm not mistaken the Super Blackhawk's grip frame is larger as well.
My Blackhawk has a stainless steel grip frame, but it's one of those 5.5" Stainless Bisley Convertibles they do runs of from time to time. I just love that gun. It sure makes a nice pair with my Marlin 1894 (non-cowboy) in 45 Colt.

CraigC
October 21, 2011, 08:43 AM
The 7" and 10" Supers have a grip frame that is about " longer than the others. The 4 5/8" and 5" Supers have the same XR3-RED pattern grip frame as the Blackhawks, only in steel. Neither one works for me so I converted mine to a Bisley, then had David Clements spiff it up a bit.

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/blackriver905/large/P1010063.JPG

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