14" shotgun barrel no stamp?


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samy12386
October 12, 2011, 12:00 AM
came across this while looking for grips for my new mossberg. towards the bottom of the page mixed in with the photos is a statement that by keeping your shotgun's total length above 26 inches you can have a 14" barrel. correct me if i am wrong but i thought overall length didnt matter if you were under 18 on the barrel..... by what this site is claiming they are saying if my mossberg came from the factory with a pistol grip (it did) that i could purchase one of their grips and lower my barrel length to 14 without asking uncle sams permission..... link is posted below what are your thoughts? i am only concerned with the law as far as the NFA goes. Thanks for the input, this forum has helped me with so much advice over the years but this is my first question.


http://www.shockwavetechnologies.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=50

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Telekinesis
October 12, 2011, 12:17 AM
I'm pretty sure that it is legal assuming the shotgun was PGO from the factory, as they are transferred as "other" on the 4473, rather than officially as a shotgun.

I'm not sure how you'd prove to a police officer on the side of the road that you're legal, but in court you would be ok.

OldmanFCSA
October 12, 2011, 12:59 AM
I've always understood the law to be : a minimum of 18" on barrel length, and 26+3/4" on overall length.

Tell me if I am wrong or out of date with current regulations.

Arp32
October 12, 2011, 01:05 AM
Barrel length + overall length, otherwise why wouldn't <18" barrels be available without a tax stamp?!? If it sounds too good to be true...

Sam Cade
October 12, 2011, 01:44 AM
I've always understood the law to be : a minimum of 18" on barrel length, and 26+3/4" on overall length.

Tell me if I am wrong or out of date with current regulations.


Shotguns not fitted with a buttstock at the the factory arent "shotguns" per the feds so they don't have to abide by the 18" worth of barrel rule, but they DO have to be 26" OAL.
All this screwy stuff is a consequence of the original intent to make pistols NFA items under GCA '34.

http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf

OldmanFCSA
October 12, 2011, 01:49 AM
Shotguns not fitted with a buttstock at the the factory arent "shotguns" per the feds so they don't have to abide by the 18" worth of barrel rule, but they DO have to be 26" OAL.
All this screwy stuff is a consequence of the original intent to make pistols NFA items under GCA '34.

http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/PistolGrippedShotgunLike.pdf
Thank you for the update.

I purchased mine from a Deputy in Southern Indiana when I lived there. It also has no Seril Number on it so must have been made before 1968 regulations came into effect.

I know it kicks like a "BICH" !!!

backbencher
October 12, 2011, 03:49 AM
Looking @ Remington, Mossberg, & Winchester's sites quickly, it would seem the only option is Mossberg @ this time, & only in 12 ga. For many years my car gun's been an 870 in 20 ga w/ the 21" Youth bbl - w/ full choke, & an extended mag. This prompts a re-evaluation. Will have to guesstimate the length of the receiver on my 500 when I get home w/ the Pachmayr grip - guessing a new 18" bbl on a new 500 pistol grip could be cut to 16" or so? Then off to Briley for choke tubes...

tallpaul
October 12, 2011, 08:53 AM
I would not trust one letter from the nfa, and an Internet one at that. I was always under the impression for a pistol to be a pistol and not make an AOW the barrel needed to be rifled. I never did understand why no one made a shotty with the pistol grip and a shorter RIFLED barrel, the twist could be weak .

If you are afraid of NFA paperwork, don't be.... To cheap to do it remember the first hour of a good lawyer costs more than the 200 .oo stamp.

If ya wanna play the pay to do so! Do it right and save yourself the hassle at the least! Jailtime n bankruptcy at the worst.

Sam1911
October 12, 2011, 09:08 AM
Sam Cade's got it exactly right. If it comes from the factory without a butt-stock, it is NOT a shotgun under federal law, but an "other firearm." (Like a belt-fed semi-auto 1919, or a bare AR-15 receiver.) To be a Shotgun, it must be "designed or redesignd to be fired from the shoulder."

As an "Other Firearm" the 18" barrel length does not apply, but the 26" overall length rule does. Some combinations of barrel, receiver length, and pistol grip style make it possible to stay over 26" oal, with a barrel noticably shorter than 18."

IF you want to build one that is less than 26" OAL, it will be considered a smooth-bore handgun and that is a Title II "Any Other Weapon."

Sam1911
October 12, 2011, 09:10 AM
only option is Mossberg @ this time, & only in 12 ga.Not sure who's making what right at this moment, but Mossberg has sold 20 ga. and I beileve .410 PGOs for years.

ETA: Yup, here's the list: http://mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=5&display=specs

paul
October 12, 2011, 10:39 AM
So, legally, I could shave off 3" of bbl on the PGO .410...:D

I'd lose the front bead, but wouldn't have much use for it anyway...
Have to add a LASER...

What about a VFG on it..?

If'n it's a go, I could see dropping the cash for it, based on cool factor alone!

p

http://www.mossberg.com/images/Mossberg_Guns/930/NEW/50455.jpg

samy12386
October 12, 2011, 10:48 AM
A vertical pistol grip would put u in the AOW category. So am I correct to assume that since my mossy came from the factory PGO I can shave my barrel down as long as I stay above 26 overall? And of course don't put a vertical pistol grip.

Sam1911
October 12, 2011, 11:23 AM
A vertical pistol grip would put u in the AOW category.Not on an "Other Firearm." That only applies to handguns.

So am I correct to assume that since my mossy came from the factory PGO I can shave my barrel down as long as I stay above 26 overall? Yes. I'd keep a coply of the ATF letter on that issue with me and be prepared to have to discuss the matter with any local law enforcement officer who happens to take issue. Unlikely perhaps, but possible. This area is poorly understood.

And of course don't put a vertical pistol grip.Not an issue with a PGO shotgun over 26" overall.

samy12386
October 12, 2011, 11:31 AM
does anyone have a link to the mentioned ATF letter? btw thanks for all the quick replys i will be getting to work as soon as that birdshead grip arrives

Sam1911
October 12, 2011, 11:43 AM
Look in this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7047111

Here's the letter: http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf

samy12386
October 12, 2011, 11:54 AM
Thank you! last question: what atf form is used to request the info from AFT on the orgins of my mossy. just to make 100% it came PGO

Sam1911
October 12, 2011, 12:07 PM
Not possible. That info only exists in Mossberg's records, and in the form 4473 in the filing cabinet of the dealer(s) who sold it.

samy12386
October 12, 2011, 12:14 PM
it was bought brand new at a gun show. all the paper work i have (not a 4473 form) says long gun or shotgun on it. does this mean i am a no go?

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 12, 2011, 12:17 PM
If you use a bird's head grip, you can shave off even more just then you are stuck with that grip or get a new barrel.

Sam1911
October 12, 2011, 12:19 PM
What paperwork do you have? The owner's manual may or may not be generic enough not to clearly say what you purchased. And manufacturers don't use the term "Other Firearm" anyway.

The only definitive answer would come from one of two places: 1) the manufacturer's records of what that serial numbered gun was configured as when they shipped it; and 2) the seller's form 4473.

Now, there are no examples anywhere of someone being forced to prove this one way or another. If your gun was confiscated and/or you were charged with a federal felony, your attorney would simply subpoena those records to prove your case. It seems vanishingly unlikely that the ATF would prosecute on such a case, as their very first investigative step would prove that they'd lose.

Generally, these oddball technicalities seem only to be brought up in charges when the subject is a "person of interest" in much more serious crimes already and they're simply stacking on everything they can think of.

dprice3844444
October 12, 2011, 12:38 PM
well that shot gun is an aow if bought unassembled from remington(870) 5 dollar xfer.
otherwise it's a short barrelled shotgun,200 xfer fee.that gun basically is a wilson arms co witness protection shotgun built for the federal marshalls witness protection program.i have the sbs and aow versions.
youwill see this shotgun in the beginning scenes of the movie cobra with stallone

Sam1911
October 12, 2011, 01:01 PM
well that shot gun is an aow if bought unassembled from remington(870) 5 dollar xfer.
otherwise it's a short barrelled shotgun,200 xfer fee.
What? WHICH shotgun? This one?

http://www.shockwavetechnologies.com/catalog/images/RG500.1.jpg

If you read the text printed on that image, or in this thread, it becomes clear that THAT shotgun is not an NFA item. And assembling one to match it from a factory PGO or from a bare receiver would not be a Title II firearm as the overall length is greater than 26".

If purchased as a full stocked shotgun and then converted to a 14" barrel, then yes, it would be a Title II SBS.

MasterSergeantA
October 12, 2011, 07:33 PM
I wonder how the length of that compares with the Breachers Grip from Knoxx/Blackhawk.

Dead
October 12, 2011, 09:56 PM
Would the 26" OAL apply if one would install a <18" RIFLED barrel on a PGO shotgun?

Owen Sparks
October 12, 2011, 11:08 PM
Sam Cade said:
All this screwy stuff is a consequence of the original intent to make pistols NFA items under GCA '34.

Sam is exactly right. Handguns were removed from the bill due to public pressure but all the provisions to keep people from making concealable "handguns" out of long guns stayed in and became law even though they make no sense when you can still buy a handgun. It sounds trivial until you realize that people have gone to prison for this.

backbencher
October 13, 2011, 01:41 AM
Much thanks Sam. Now I just have to check state law on the subject. But a 16" 20 ga would make a nice stocking stuffer for the father-in-law.

It does seem a bit silly to put a long pistol grip on a shotgun so one can get a shorter bbl. Wouldn't it make sense to have the longest bbl & the shortest pistol grip?

Sam Cade
October 13, 2011, 02:11 AM
Wouldn't it make sense to have the longest bbl & the shortest pistol grip?
Not really.

For a shotgun, barrel length is pretty much inconsequential for ballistic effect provided its longer than 12" or so.

Shotgun powders burn fast and you get most of your velocity in the first few inches. Longer barrels are only really useful on shotguns for handling purposes.

backbencher
October 13, 2011, 03:43 AM
So... he said slyly. Who besides Mossberg sells long arms that can handle shotgun shells, but don't come w/ a buttstock?

T/C is not the answer we're looking for here. A 26" T/C is gonna have a 22"+ bbl hanging off that pistol grip.

Farmers Fight!

backbencher

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 13, 2011, 11:23 AM
Remington does sell PGO 870s.

backbencher
October 14, 2011, 01:24 AM
What about a stripped AR lower : EG

Edited to add - have emailed Remington, as the only factory PG I could find was a 10" breacher on their LE site, which defeats the purpose of this discussion.

MasterSergeantA
October 14, 2011, 07:07 PM
What about it? You can build a pistol on a stripped lower any day you care to so long as your local laws don't prohibit it. Most will require a buffer tube of some sort, but the dedicated .22LR guns and some odd ones like the OA-93 don't need it. Cut the barrel as short as (1) you like, and (2) it will function.

mgregg85
October 14, 2011, 07:32 PM
Can anyone say if this is legal to do in Michigan? If so i'll be running over to see my FFL ASAP to order a PGO mossy. This seems like a nice, cheap backdoor way to a fun NFA-like toy. It'll save me from blowing the $700 on a Serbu Super Shorty.

Sam Cade
October 14, 2011, 07:42 PM
Can anyone say if this is legal to do in Michigan?

Looks like it would be.

“Shotgun” means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the
shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun
shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single function
of the trigger

So a PGO is NOT a shotgun per the law.


(i) “Short-barreled shotgun” means a shotgun having 1 or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or a
weapon made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified
has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Neat.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/publications/firearms.pdf

mgregg85
October 14, 2011, 07:43 PM
Here is a little selection from Michigan Firearms Law regarding shotguns...

MCL 750.222; MSA 28.419, in pertinent part, provides:
‘(d) ‘Shotgun’ means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder
and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire
through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single function of the trigger.
‘(e) ‘Short-barreled shotgun’ means a shotgun having 1 or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or a weapon
made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall
length of less than 26 inches

So it would seem from that that Michigan defines a shotgun as weapon designed to be fired from the shoulder.

So I think this would be legal then?

mgregg85
October 14, 2011, 07:44 PM
Sorry about that, I didn't refresh the page and you beat me to it. Thank you for the fast reply.

Well then, barring any dissenting opinions, let the games begin!:)

mgregg85
October 14, 2011, 08:28 PM
This is getting to be more trouble than its worth already, I cannot find a suitable pistol grip mossy 500 that has a short enough magazine tube to make this worth while. All the pistol grip shotguns they sell now have a long magazine tube that would only allow me to cut an inch or two off the barrel at most.

Rail Driver
October 14, 2011, 09:38 PM
This is getting to be more trouble than its worth already, I cannot find a suitable pistol grip mossy 500 that has a short enough magazine tube to make this worth while. All the pistol grip shotguns they sell now have a long magazine tube that would only allow me to cut an inch or two off the barrel at most.
Why not see about finding a used one? The older models have shorter mag tubes on some guns, and you won't have too much trouble finding someone willing to sell their pgo shotgun.

Sam Cade
October 14, 2011, 10:28 PM
The short 5 round magazine tubes are about $30 or so.

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/869468/mossberg-magazine-tube-mossberg-500-a-12-gauge


Food for thought:

The ATF has told us that buffer tubes are NOT stocks, allowing AR pistols to be kosher.

Why not mount a M4 buffer tube on your not-a-shotgun shotgun to get really short?

backbencher
October 15, 2011, 06:26 PM
3 thoughts:
Why make the receiver longer just to have a shorter bbl? What's the point?

Used PG should be carefully researched before purchase to verify they shipped from the factory w/ the pistol grip installed, & that there's no evidence of a shoulder stock being installed in the entire life of the weapon. Otherwise, you've just made a SBS w/o paying the $200 tax or doing the paperwork 1st. And there's no THR prisoners visitation committee yet.

A couple of inches is ALL one can chop off a Mossberg 500 PG w/out going to a lengthened PG. The 20 ga M500 shows as 28" on their site - you can only chop the bbl to 16.5" & stay @ the 26" limit w/out the tax stamp.

FF! bb

Gordon
October 16, 2011, 01:57 AM
Hmmmmm, that means my 20 ga. Ithaca 37 with PG in the serial # would be legal if I put the Rubber pistol grip it came with back on and cut the 25" barrel it now has on it down to keep the OAL to 26"+ ?? Looks like 14.25" barrel would get me 26.25".:evil:

backbencher
October 16, 2011, 02:37 AM
Gordon, IF your PG marked Ithaca has NEVER had a buttstock installed. It sounds like it has - I'm still not volunteering for THR's prisoner visitation committee. Why don't you go buy a NIB Mossy 500 PG, that you don't already have a used buttstock already lying around that your friends know you used to have on your new sub-18" PG? They might not drop the dime on you - but I would.

mgregg85
October 16, 2011, 07:37 AM
The short 5 round magazine tubes are about $30 or so.

http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/869...500-a-12-gauge


Food for thought:

The ATF has told us that buffer tubes are NOT stocks, allowing AR pistols to be kosher.

Why not mount a M4 buffer tube on your not-a-shotgun shotgun to get really short?

Alright that solves the mag tube problem, what about the barrel? Do you know where I could find a barrel that has the appropriate mag tube ring thing for that 14" mag tube?

I would have the same question about that buffer tube idea, where can I find an appropriately short barrel?

Sam1911
October 16, 2011, 09:28 AM
Gordon, IF your PG marked Ithaca has NEVER had a buttstock installed. It sounds like it has... Actually, the ATF changed their stance earlier this year so that guns that came as a handgun/other can be converted back and forth as you wish.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=606813

Note, this generally mentions pistols & rifles, but I think the foundation of the decision translates to shotgun -vs.- "other" as well.

Mike1234567
October 16, 2011, 10:18 AM
Not to derail this thread but... is anyone aware of any AK style .410 bore PGO guns at reasonable prices? I think one with a 15-16" barrel would make an excellent HD firearm.

Ash_J_Williams
October 16, 2011, 11:37 AM
Actually, the ATF changed their stance earlier this year so that guns that came as a handgun/other can be converted back and forth as you wish.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=606813

Note, this generally mentions pistols & rifles, but I think the foundation of the decision translates to shotgun -vs.- "other" as well.

So does this also work with adding a shoulder stock to a pistol, similar to a black powder revolver with a shoulder stock but in modern calibers?

Sam Cade
October 16, 2011, 01:28 PM
So does this also work with adding a shoulder stock to a pistol, similar to a black powder revolver with a shoulder stock but in modern calibers?

Yes, provided that you have 16" worth of barrel and 26" OAL.

http://www.mechtechsys.com/

Gordon
October 16, 2011, 02:33 PM
OK my (wife's) 20 gauge Ultra Featherlight originally was a Stake Out owned by LVPD and sold at auction without the 13" barrel. It actually has HG in the serialization which I thought meant Hand Gun , BUT actually on research last night means Hand Guard as the foreend has (still) this strap which was meant to protect the hand from the wrath of the 13" barrel. So it WAS a factory handgun. The deal is I put a stock and a 25" Deerslayer barrel on it for the wife for general use around the ranch. Last night I got out the factory (Choate made it) installed pistol grip and got out the tape measure. It would take a 17 1/12" barrel to make it over 26". So there is no advantage to having an ATF eyebrow raising sub 18" barrel on it. Much ado about nothing really, I'll bet most PG shotties take close to an 18" barrel to get to 26+" OAL, as usual we get a sum total of nothing new. Top gun below, note handstrap and unmarked receiver on the 37..
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/spring2008118.jpg

Zoogster
October 16, 2011, 05:11 PM
Most common shotgun receivers with an 18" barrel are close to 26" overall length, so there is only about the width of the added grip to cut off from the barrel, and then you are stuck with a specific shotgun configuration to remain legal.


In California it is not even an option because California borrows the federal 18" and 26" minimum size limits, but then defines a short barreled shotgun as something with less than either that fires fixed shotshells irregardless of whether it is shoulder fired or not.
So it doesn't matter that it would be legal at the federal level, with a barrel less than 18" it becomes an illegal short barreled shotgun.
The Taurus Judge is an illegal short barreled shotgun in California for the same reason, fires shotgun shells and has a barrel under 18" in length.
Additionally California law states just the parts to assemble such a device is the same as having it, so just possession of a shotgun barrel shorter than 18" in California and a shotgun that can use it would be felony possession of a short barreled shotgun (unless you have a legal federally NFA registered AOW which meets an exemption) even if your shotgun is in a legal configuration at state and federal level.

Others may wish to double check their state laws on short barreled shotguns and make sure they don't have a different definition than federal law, and/or require NFA registration to meet a state exemption as I know some other states also outlaw what are typically NFA items if they are not registered federally under state law as well.
This could theoretically result in a state having some law that classifies such a shotgun as a felony even if federally legal based on a different definition of 'shotgun'.

FIVETWOSEVEN
October 16, 2011, 05:23 PM
In my state, you can't have a loaded rifle or shotgun in your car, I'm guessing these shotguns could be loaded?

Sam Cade
October 16, 2011, 05:54 PM
In my state, you can't have a loaded rifle or shotgun in your car, I'm guessing these shotguns could be loaded?

It looks like New Hampshire would consider it a Pistol (depending on how short the barrel) so you would have to play by those rules.

159:1 Definition. – Pistol or revolver, as used herein, means any firearm with barrel less than 16 inches in length. It does not include antique pistols, gun canes, or revolvers.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xii/159/159-mrg.htm

backbencher
October 16, 2011, 06:39 PM
I'm guessing that's the reason why Mossberg isn't selling 16.5" bbl PG smothbore "other firearms" like hotcakes. Only if one's state adopted the convoluted '34 NFA (& it's 1960 revision?) wholesale is this toy legal w/out a tax stamp. It doesn't seem to be legal in Texas, and would offer me a whole 2" benefit - for which I'd have to have the front bead remounted. I've an 870 in 20 ga w/ a 21" bbl w/ full choke - I've thought about getting down to 18", but I'd have to spend good cash to have the choke tube reinstalled. If I'm going to all that trouble, why not just carry the new Kel-Tec, w/ 3 times the magazine capacity, & also only 26"?

On the flip side, it would be wonderful to own one just to demonstrate to liberals how ridiculous their silly gun laws are, written by people who have no understanding of firearms - one reason why I like my Kel-Tec SUB 2000, born under the no folding stock provision of the AWB - so it has a folding barrel.

Gordon
October 16, 2011, 07:54 PM
870 in 20 ga w/ a 21" bbl w/ full choke

Wow thats a rare bird if it's fixed, never heard of it!

Sam Cade
October 16, 2011, 08:03 PM
870 in 20 ga w/ a 21" bbl w/ full choke

Wow thats a rare bird if it's fixed, never heard of it!

Prolly a Special Field. They arent uncommon. Straight English type stock too. I've got one in 12ga.

backbencher
October 16, 2011, 08:21 PM
Nope, the Youth Express w/ RemChokes. A Pachmayr grip & an extended magazine, but it eats mag springs if you keep it loaded. Handy little gun, & it helped someone change his mind about punching me one night. Apparently in the dark it looks like a 12 ga. It's a lot more controllable than shooting Navy Mossy 500s from the hip.

zakmatthews
October 17, 2011, 02:46 PM
Firearm companies have been pushing the envelope lately, consider the Rossi Ranch Hand: http://www.rossiusa.com/product-list.cfm?category=17

Kingcreek
October 17, 2011, 03:05 PM
The Rossi ranch hand is another example of a super-sized "handgun". I know these things exite people but I sure don't know why.

MasterSergeantA
October 17, 2011, 05:24 PM
Call it nostalgia. I watched Steve McQueen sling one around in 'Wanted: Dead or Alive" and bought one when they came out. Just for fun.

backbencher
October 17, 2011, 06:28 PM
zak, love the case hardening. Let's add a free-float quad-rail system, a red dot, & a GripPod, & we're in business!

MenaceMan47
October 26, 2011, 01:15 AM
ShockwaveTechnologies.com is advertising a Version 2 of the famous birdshead grip made by Speedfeed. It is longer than the previous grip, and if installed on a Mossberg 500 with a barrel no shorter than a 14" barrel, it is within legal length of over 26" and DOES NOT NEED A TAX STAMP...

I already own a 590 14" AOW, but have one on order anyways. Good looking grips, and for under $40 its not a bad price.

backbencher
October 26, 2011, 06:24 PM
MM,

Er, if installed on a Mossy 500 that came with a Pistol Grip from the factory... If anyone wants the link to the PG it's in the First Post in the thread... : )

FF!

backbencher

Ash_J_Williams
November 12, 2011, 02:19 AM
Firearm companies have been pushing the envelope lately, consider the Rossi Ranch Hand: http://www.rossiusa.com/product-list.cfm?category=17

Well, it's a handgun, really. It's essentially a volcanic pistol functionally, but a little bigger and more usable. Nothing "scarier" about it by making it smaller.

The Rossi ranch hand is another example of a super-sized "handgun". I know these things exite people but I sure don't know why.

I don't really see super-sized, considering it shoots pretty straight forward calibers (.22, .38sp/.357, .44mag, .45lc).

backbencher
November 12, 2011, 01:36 PM
Ash,

You know where I could find any .45sc?

Gig 'em,

backbencher

Ash_J_Williams
November 14, 2011, 11:07 AM
Ash,

You know where I could find any .45sc?

Gig 'em,

backbencher

I don't take your meaning.

Botschafter
November 14, 2011, 12:33 PM
MCL 750.222; MSA 28.419, in pertinent part, provides:
‘(d) ‘Shotgun’ means a firearm designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder
and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire
through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single function of the trigger.
‘(e) ‘Short-barreled shotgun’ means a shotgun having 1 or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or a weapon
made from a shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if the weapon as modified has an overall
length of less than 26 inches
IF the weapons as modified overall length? This seems worded fishily, unless I'm horribly wrong.

Sam Cade
November 14, 2011, 10:13 PM
I don't take your meaning.

He is implying that ".45lc" is incorrect nomenclature since the original designation was .45 Colt and there is no "short colt" cartridge.

...of course there is a "short" .45, the .45 Schofield.

.45 Colt became ".45 Long Colt" colloquially to differentiate the two and it stuck long after the obsolescence of the .45 Schofield....or so goes the story.

mgregg85
January 12, 2012, 07:10 AM
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I found some interesting new info. In an effort to make it easier for lazy people like me they made a list of all the parts you need to convert your PGO mossy 500 to a 14".

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=438
I had wanted to try this out before but the hassle of it discouraged me, now I might give it a go.

Mike1234567
January 12, 2012, 11:00 AM
^^^ Thanks for the link!!

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