My Opinion- Charter Arms Pitbull .40 S&W Revolver


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pvq
October 12, 2011, 01:29 PM
Though I do have a couple of Glocks, I've always considered myself a revolver aficionado. I'd heard of Charter Arms, but honestly, prior to this purchase, I never actually had the opportunity to fondle a Charter Arms revolver. I did an exhaustive amount of internet research on Charter Arms and, with some trepidation, ordered my Pitbull from Davidsons, sight unseen. What follows is a rather lengthy review of my revolver in particular, and Charter Arms' owner, employees, and company in general. To those interested in my impressions of the gun without a desire to read further...I LOVE IT! I think it is a fine quality revolver that will most certainly outlast me (and probably my children) with a reasonable amount of use and care. But I feel the need to recount (in painstaking detail) not only my opinion of my revolver, but of the company itself. There is a lot of negative opinions about Charter Arms out there on the net. Since my experience has been extremely positive, I want to share it for those that might be considering a Charter.
So that you might have some context for my opinion, I have been a law enforcement officer for the past 24 years. I spent 10 of those years as a certified firearms instructor and have bought and sold more guns than I care to recount (since I have regretted nearly every one that I let go.) I began my career with a variant of the S&W 686 as a service weapon, and a Ruger SP101 as an off duty. I've had many snub nose revolvers (mostly S&W) through the years. I was one of the last to begrudgingly convert to a semi-auto, and only after my agency adopted the Glock. (Their first foray into the "wondernine" world was the S&W 6906 which I held in low regard.) To this day I prefer revolvers and am elated that Charter has taken the initiative to develop and market a self defense revolver that accepts rimless ammunition since that is what I am currently issued.
Despite that fact that there were a number of Charter Arms authorized dealers in my area, none had the PitBull in stock, and none indicated that were planning to order them. One of the unintended consequences of the internet is that dealers seem to be restricting their stock to only the most popular firearms. This prevents educated consumers (like me) from "cherry picking" the best one in stock. With no alternative means of getting my mitts on a Pitbull, I ordered one from Davidsons and had it shipped to my local dealer.
I was pleasantly surprised when I picked up my new revolver. It was tight, locked up solidly, and exhibited much more of a quality "feel" than I had expected based on some of the internet information I had read. There were no machine marks or sharp edges, the revolver was finished well, and timing was flawless. One issue of immediate concern was that the ejector rod was very stiff. I chalked it up to the fact that the gun was brand new and needed a good cleaning and lubrication. Armed with "Davidsons Lifetime Guarantee" as well as Charter Arms "Lifetime Warranty", I accepted the gun, hopeful that Charter would resolve any issues that might arise.

At my first opportunity, I sat down to do a side by side comparison of my new Pitbull with my Ruger LCR. (FYI, my LCR has about 150 +P rounds through her) Despite the fact that the Pitbull is a larger gun (most similar in size to the Colt D frame Detective Special), I think it is valuable to compare the Pitbull to the LCR since it appears to me that both are similarly constructed. Both the Pitbull and the LCR feature a two piece frame, enclosed crane, and lack a cylinder stop. My admittedly unscientific observations are that the Pitbull is virtually identical to the LCR in terms of tolerances. Both revolvers lock up tightly, there is no play in the cylinders when the trigger is held to the rear, the "hand" and "cylinder bolt" of each revolver appear to be proportionately sized and of equivalent strength, and the (very minimal) amount of "end skake" is the same in both revolvers. Those of you familiar with the LCR know that it utilizes a completely different trigger system which I think is without equal. The Charter trigger was a bit gritty out of the box, but "smoothed up" beautifully after dry firing it a hundred times or so. One criticism I have seen about the Charter revolvers is that there is greater than normal "cylinder wobble" when the cylinder is opened and hanging on the crane/ejector rod assembly. This appears to be because the crane is narrower where the ejector rod passes through in order to accommodate the "slip collar" on the ejector rod which slides into place to provide a locking point when the cylinder is closed. This may be difficult to visualize without handling the revolver, but I do not envision this being a problem. There is less "cylinder wobble" when the crane is open on the LCR, but the LCR locks up with a detent on the end of the extractor rod (like an S&W), allowing for more metal on the crane which I believe accounts for that difference.

The revolutionary feature of the Pitbull is that it allows the use of (so called) rimless ammunition without need of moon clips. This is accomplished by means of spring loaded tabs that engage the cartridge rim when inserted. As a result, the rounds don't just "fall" into the chamber when reloading since some force is required to push back the spring loaded tab. One trick to reloading is to depress the extractor rod to lift the star, then placing cartridge on to the extended tab, allowing the round to "fall" into the chamber when the extractor star is lowered. I loaded and unloaded the cylinder about one hundred times to evaluate its reliability. Initially, one of the five tabs would stick and fail to engage the cartridge case. One drop of Militec oil (from a pin point oiler) solved that problem. I assume, much like the trigger assembly, the tabs need to wear in a bit. It is important to point out that the spring loaded tabs serve ONLY to allow for the extraction of the spent shells. The cartridge itself is headspaced in the cylinder, so even without the tabs in place, the cartridges would seat properly and not fall through. The rimless system seems very robust and I think it will perform well long term.
When, after a through lubrication and cleaning, the ejector rod continued to bind, I emailed Charter Arms to arrange to return the gun for repair. Since I live in NYC (where it is unlawful to ship firearms except through an FFL) I had inquired as to whether or not I would be able to bring the gun to the factory (about 75 miles from my home) and have it repaired while I waited. Imagine my surprise when I received a call from Nick Ecker (Owner and President of Charter Arms Inc.) personally on a Sunday! Mr. Ecker told me that Charter would, of course, cover all shipping and handling in the event that I wanted to ship the gun to them, but he invited me to visit the factory for a tour while my gun was repaired. I was giddy at the prospect of a factory tour, and happily chose the latter.
When I arrived, I was greeted by Mr. Ecker who proceeded to take me on a step by step tour of his factory, which is basically a classic machine shop. All parts in a Charter revolver are manufactured within a 100 mile radius of the factory, with assembly, fit and finishing done by Charter. I got to meet many of his employees (there are just under 30) who (in addition to being extremely friendly) were proud to demonstrate their role in the manufacture and distribution of these fine firearms. I really got the sense that Charter Arms is a family. Mr. Ecker noted that his company has a "zero" attrition rate, and that most of his employees were there when he bought back the business back in 1999. (If you visit charterfirearms.com you can read about the full history of the company.)

It is also worthy of note that I asked Mr. Ecker how many of his employees were devoted to warranty repairs. In response he pointed to a cabinet containing about a half-dozen guns. He also volunteered that since 1964, approximately two million Charter Arms revolvers have been sold, and that cabinet was typical of what was "in house" at any given time for repair. There are no employees dedicated to warranty service since it is simply not necessary. All repairs are completed on the regular assembly line, and turn around time is normally five business days or less. In my view that speaks volumes about the durability, reliability, and over all quality of Charter Arms revolvers.

During my brief visit, I developed a tremendous admiration for Mr. Ecker. He, along with his employees, truly embody the traditional American values of hard work, pride, and craftsmanship. He is justifiably very proud of his company. All of us who cherish our Second Amendment rights owe a debt of gratitude to Mr. Ecker (and others like him) who overcome enormous regulatory and legal hurdles to bring their product to market.

On Wed 10/12/2011 I headed to the range for a quick test run. One thing that struck me right away is that the Pitbull seems perfectly balanced, points naturally, and has a very comfortable grip. I realize this is totally subjective, and not entirely unexpected since I have always regarded the old Colt Detective Special as the perfectly sized, weighted and balanced snub-nosed revolver. An added bonus is that I was able to squeeze the Pitbull into my old Cobra Gunskin H-35 paddle holster which I regard as the best holster I have ever owned. For me it just feels right.

Due to time constraints, I was only able to fire 65 rounds (Federal 135 grain HST), but I can state that gun shot to point of aim and exhibited excellent combat accuracy out to 15 yards. Like most weapons I have fired...the gun is capable of higher accuracy than I am. There were no malfunctions and the revolver functioned superbly. Spent casings ejected easily, and the extractor tabs functioned smoothly. Three friends that were with me each test fired the Pitbull and were equally as impressed as I was.

In summary, I am happy to report that I am extremely satisfied satisfied with my Charter Arms revolver, due in no small measure to the company that manufactured it. Charter Arms revolvers have a decidedly different "feel" than either Ruger or S&W, but I would not characterize it as a feel of a lower quality...just different. I have no plans to torture test my personal weapon, but I read somewhere that tolerances in one of the initial Ruger LCRs remained within factory spec after 10,000 rounds fired (some with the crane screw removed) and I have no reason to believe that a Charter Arms revolver would perform any differently. Here is a link from the Charter Arms website to a "torture test" of 2000 rounds performed on one of their aluminum framed revolvers with favorable results http://www.charterfirearms.com/audio/Charter%20Torture%20Test.MP3 I have to imagine a steel frame would fare even better. I doubt my Charter revolver will see 5000 rounds until my grandchildren are using it, but I am confident that it could handle many more rounds than that, and if any issues did arise, they would be expeditiously resolved by the Charter Arms family.

I would like to close by urging any of you considering the purchase of a revolver to give Charter Arms a hard look. I own S&Ws, and Rugers...and I like them very much, but there is an intangible satisfaction that comes from owning and carrying a fine quality American revolver, made by a small company that does one thing and does it exceedingly well. I echo the sentiments of Congressman Ron Paul in that I consider myself a capitalist, NOT a corporatist. That is not a swipe at S&W or Ruger, nor is it meant to say that all large corporations are bad...but I do think that small businesses like Charter Arms are the backbone of this great Republic. Mr. Ecker is Patriot who manufactures an excellent product, and whom I am proud to support.

Thanks for taking the time to read my opinion.

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Mr.Revolverguy
October 12, 2011, 06:33 PM
Nice Review

Frank V
October 12, 2011, 08:18 PM
Pvq
Thanks for the review. It's nice to have someone say something nice about Charter. I had a similar experience. I got a Bulldog .44 Special a few years ago & it had light primer strikes the first time out. I returned it to the dealer the next day, he agreed that the firing pin wasn't coming through the frame very far & sent the gun back to Charter. I got my gun back in 3 weeks & haven't had any trouble since. I'm also one who thinks Charter Arms is a good gun.
Frank

Just checked my log book & it was 5 weeks not 3. The gun has been flawless since.
FV

pvq
October 12, 2011, 08:31 PM
Just for the record Frank...I had the exact same firing pin issue you are describing with a ($700) S&W 351PD about two years ago. That is how I found out it is unlawful to mail guns into NYC (sent it back to S&W and then couldn't return it to me)

Anyway I just throw that out there as evidence that, unfortunately, sometimes mistakes don't get caught before the product goes out the door....but that is not exclusive to Charter.

sixgunner455
October 13, 2011, 11:24 AM
Excellent review.

Superdave70_02
October 13, 2011, 12:19 PM
I really want one of those! Thank you for the review.

Triggernosis
October 13, 2011, 12:51 PM
That's excellent to hear about your experience with Charter.

Triggernosis
October 13, 2011, 12:52 PM
BTW, does anyone know why they quit making the .327 Patriot?

harmon rabb
October 13, 2011, 12:58 PM
wow that is absolutely awesome that the owner himself called you, then took you on a factory tour while your gun was being fixed.

kind of makes me want to buy that .44spl pug i've been looking at...

Triggernosis
October 13, 2011, 01:03 PM
kind of makes me want to buy that .44spl pug i've been looking at...
No offense to PVQ, but, yes, I'd rather have a .44 Special than mess with the .40.

harmon rabb
October 13, 2011, 01:06 PM
i don't see the point in a 40s&w revolver. why not a 10mm revolver?

sixgunner455
October 13, 2011, 01:14 PM
Lots of people carry a .40, there's lots of ammo out there for it, and sometimes, it's more available than other stuff. Lots of reasons for a .40. I haven't had one in more than 10 years, but I've thought about getting another one just because of all the brass I've got, and because of being able to get ammo.

Personally, I prefer revolver cartridges in a revolver, but I think it's really cool that they've made a system to make the auto cartridges work without moon clips.

EVIL
October 13, 2011, 04:11 PM
Wow! Nice review, glad to see a company that stands by its' products.

I for one, like the idea of the .40S&W in a revolver - yes, I have .38SPLs & .357s too, but I have found .40 to be an affordable and easily found range cartridge - Typically $15/box of 50 vice $19 for .38 or $23 for .357. I really have to shop around to find .38SPL at the same price point as .40 S&W.

I hope this firearm becomes available in my local area, as I would seriously consider it after your review.

rdrancher
October 13, 2011, 05:27 PM
Imagine my surprise when I received a call from Nick Ecker (Owner and President of Charter Arms Inc.) personally on a Sunday!

I sent an email to CA awhile ago regarding the Bulldog Classic and was equally surprised when I received a return email from Mr. Ecker with info concerning availability and where to purchase. Charter has had it's ups and downs, but it looks as though this may be the best incarnation of Charter Arms yet!

Nice review btw. I'm looking forward to the .45 version.

dallascj
October 13, 2011, 05:33 PM
Thanks for the excellent review. I have to say that I really like my 2 .44 Special Bulldogs and they are great carry guns. They are new models similar to your .40.

Water-Man
October 13, 2011, 05:47 PM
Nice review. Thank you.

W-M

bestseller92
October 13, 2011, 06:35 PM
Would love to have a Bulldog someday.

NelsErik
October 13, 2011, 06:53 PM
I'm trying to picture your description of how the Bulldog holds and ejects the cartridges. It sounds like it works similar to how the Medusa 47 worked. Do you think the "spring loaded tabs" will eventually break off like one of them did on my Medusa 47?


Great Review! Thanks!

pvq
October 13, 2011, 07:39 PM
The spring loaded tabs seem very robust to me. I don't have a micrometer, but my best guestimate would be they are about the thickness of a penny, only made of stainless steel. And they only protrude about 1/16 of an inch or so....so there is not much sticking out. I'm attaching a photo to illustrate. I can't imagine that they would break easily...but if they did...I know Charter would make it right.

VA27
October 13, 2011, 09:00 PM
I'm a big Charter fan (to the point that my LGS gives me first shot at any used ones that come in) and have been for years.

I'm looking forward to this gun in 45ACP and to the new Classic Bulldog.

MCgunner
October 13, 2011, 09:06 PM
Think I'd rather have moon clips, but would like a 40 revolver. The Taurus is hard to find. Thing is, all the LEOs in the area shoot .40 and there's forty brass out the wazz for the taking at the range, more than any other caliber. I don't shoot 40 at this time, would need dies, a mold, etc, but might do that some day. The .40 in a snub would make a lot of sense, up near 500 ft lbs with some loads in autos. I expect 400 ft lbs would be easy in a snub.

igousigloo
October 13, 2011, 09:43 PM
That raises them up several steps in my estimation, I will look at them in a better light in the future.

Super Sneaky Steve
October 13, 2011, 09:57 PM
I'd like to see this gun with a very short cylinder and chambered for 9mm. I think it would be lighter and more packable than most .38's.

MCgunner
October 13, 2011, 10:17 PM
I'd like to see this gun with a very short cylinder and chambered for 9mm. I think it would be lighter and more packable than most .38's.

To contain the 35K CUP pressures of 9x19, it'd have to be a steel frame revolver unless it was scandium or titanium. I'll keep my ultralite .38 at 17 ounces, myself, but 9 makes more power and +P is significantly more powerful. The .38 ultralite carries all day in a pocket, though.

I suppose they could chamber the LCR in 9, but it'll never happen. 9mm revolvers don't sell well. Why bother when you can get a 10 shot 14 ounce auto that's smaller and flatter?

http://i50.tinypic.com/2rqlm34.jpg

mdauben
October 13, 2011, 11:02 PM
I'm looking forward to this gun in 45ACP.
Is this just wishing or does CA really have plans for this?

I've got no use for the .40 as a cartridge but I've always been facinated by .45acp revolvers. I was eyeing a S&W 325NG the other day but I seems a little big for CCW. A Bulldog size .45acp on the other hand would really tempt me.

AJMBLAZER
October 14, 2011, 12:14 AM
Charter plans to have both 9mm/.380 and .45 ACP versions. Coming next year I believe was the word, 9mm first.

Owen Sparks
October 14, 2011, 12:56 AM
I have several .44 Bulldogs (got my first one in 1979) and would love to have one in .45ACP. If you get a .44 get the 3" barrel 'classic' model.

Frank V
October 14, 2011, 01:55 PM
Harmon Rabb
if you are considering a CA Bulldog, I just went onto the Buffalo Bore web site. They are now advertising a 200gr lead full wadcutter .44 Special at 900fps. They list the test guns for velocity & one of them in a CA Bulldog. They say on the site that this load is rated for the CA Bulldog.
A 200gr .429 full wadcutter at an honest 900fps, would be bad news for whatever it hit. I'm trying to locate some now.
I don't thing the CA guns are near as bad as some paint them to be.
Frank

NMGonzo
October 14, 2011, 01:58 PM
.40 revolver would be appealing, but a .45 acp purpose built revolver would be even better.

panamaglenn
October 15, 2011, 12:16 AM
New to High Road.org. I have been a spectator for some time and have picked up a lot of useful information from the various forums. Thought I needed to share my Pit Bull experience. I own two Charter Arms revolvers. The first was an On Duty -12oz .38 special. It had to go back to Charter due to light strikes. One email to Dee Ecker and you get a timely reply and a UPS or FEDEX shipping slip. Two weeks later your gun is delivered back to your door. The On Duty needed a new crane and they also replaced the firing pin. Shoots fine now. After a couple of hundred rounds I am beginning to trust it. They stood behind it, payed shipping both ways, and ultimately made it right. After they announced the Pit Bull, I wanted a .40 revolver and thought I would give them another shot.....no pun. Shot it ten times and the barrel would unscrew with your fingers, cylinder lock up was....well less than desirable, the ejector would bind up, two of the five chambers were slightly misaligned with the barrel so it was shaving lead. Emailed Dee got a return shipping label and gave it to FEDEX. Ten days later, I opened the box, read the "work done" noted the decent grouping from the five test rounds, picked up the gun and proceeded to unscrew the barrel with my fingers...........I spoke with the "gunsmith" that "repaired" my gun. He stated he relieved the forcing cone, replaced the ejector, and assured me he torqued the barrel and applied locktite to the threads. I asked if the barrel had been checked after test firing the gun.........NO. I found only machine oil and a loose barrel. He stated the lock up was within tolerance...whatever that means. Tightening the barrel by hand left the blade sight angled to the left. I informed Dee of my dissatisfaction and she sent me another return label. I now have this beauty back again. The barrel is tight.....looks like the blade sight has been tweeked vertical.....grrr. Not exactly what I was expecting. She indicated the weapon might have to be replaced before I sent it back the second time. We will see what happens after a few hundred rounds. Both of these weapons were flawed and never should have left the factory. I know all manufacturers spit out a bad one now and then and apparently pvq got a good Pit Bull....I must say I am jealous. However, reality for me is both of my Charter 2000 weapons were substandard and having to return one of them twice (so far) for the same problem leads me to say I will not be purchasing another Charter 2000 revolver.

Triggernosis
October 15, 2011, 08:58 AM
panamaglenn,
Thanks for sharing your experience.
However, I recently had to return a brand new S&W revolver for repair of two different issues, neither of which was resolved. I finally sold the gun for a substantial loss.

pvq
October 15, 2011, 09:51 AM
I think its safe to say that all firearms manufacturers have their issues. My only point in starting this thread was to present a more balanced view. Seems like Charter Arms regularly takes a beating on these boards and I think, at times, it leaves an unfair impression. Judging a firearms manufacturer (or anyone for that matter) on anything less than the totality of their products is unfair.

Triggernosis
October 15, 2011, 11:07 AM
Right on, pvq!

Dan-O
October 15, 2011, 11:32 AM
I've got 4 Charter revo's. No problems whatsoever with any of them. Will be all over the 9mm C.A.R.R. (Charter Arms Rimless Revolver) when it comes out.

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww266/yeahitsthatbig/IMG_0296.jpg

hardknocks!
October 15, 2011, 12:17 PM
the 2000s seem to have the most problems.
i like the older models from the 70s and 80s.
good luck
Mike

Gordon
October 15, 2011, 12:33 PM
Uh Oh ! Seems like old Gordon is gonna have to spend his $ on a a rare American 21st century product made with pride!

Frank V
October 15, 2011, 02:37 PM
I agree with PVQ!
A lot of people slam Charter Arms & some of their products may have been sub standard. I have also seen Colts, S&Ws, & Rugers, with problems. No manufacturer is exempt from problems. Charter has always been a less expensive alternative gun. That doesn't mean junk, & I think the ones I've seen lately are a good value for your money.
Frank

Triggernosis
October 15, 2011, 03:23 PM
Dan-O, how'd you get those pinned front sights?

Dan-O
October 15, 2011, 06:04 PM
I sent three of my four Charters to Magnaport to have XS Sights installed and some other custom work done.

My favorite carry piece is my .44 mag pug. Had an XS Big Dot installed. Also had the hammer mini bobbed. And the trigger and hammer jeweled and polished.

Triggernosis
October 15, 2011, 07:37 PM
Dan, what does it cost (approximately) to have XS sights installed?

Ooops, I found it on their website - looks like $115 to rework the front sight.

tekarra
October 16, 2011, 08:24 AM
While on the topic Charter revolvers, soes anyone have experience with their south paw?

Kaeto
October 17, 2011, 08:15 AM
I do and I love it. No problems with it at all. Lockup is solid, timing is perfect. It's +P rated.

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