Wadcutters for Protection?


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The-Reaver
October 13, 2011, 02:24 PM
Alright so my question is full expansion and energy transfer is what you want correct?
Well wouldn't a Wadcutter work for full expansion, I mean its pretty soft lead. And its already flat. Any reason it should do an awesome job as a HD load?
RvR

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USSR
October 13, 2011, 02:41 PM
In years past, it was fairly common practice to load a hollow-base wadcutter backwards for a SD load.

Don

Shaky
October 13, 2011, 02:46 PM
Buffalo Bore actually has full wadcutters in their "anti personnel" line of ammo. Many a person has loaded a hollow based wadcutter upside down, effectively making a hollow point bullet, but other than that, you generally won't see much expansion. While the lead is soft, the bullet is going slow in most factory ammunition, minimalizing expansion (of course, if you handload them you can push them a bit harder, especially if you crimp them in a grease groove or load them into magnum brass). With that said, the full diameter meplat of the wadcutter will do more tissue damage than a round nose or semi-wadcutter. The other consideration is if you should have to reload via speedloader...those sharp edges must be lined up perfectly to go in and will slow you down.

rcmodel
October 13, 2011, 02:47 PM
The problem with HB Wadcutter is, they are almost always loaded to very low mid-range match velocity. Pressure is limited by skirt blow-out, so none of them are going to be up to speed, so to speak.
They generally are going so slow you can see them in flight.

Full wad-cutter bullets can be loaded to much higher pressure & velocity.
If you can find them, they would make most excellent SD loads..

rc

Ratshooter
October 13, 2011, 03:35 PM
I load my own solid lead wadcutter bullets and have carried them many times in a self defense snubby. I get around 800+fps with my loads from a short barrel and around 900fps from a 4" barrel. Very nice to shoot and easily controlled. I also keep a 32 mag snubby in my nightsand loaded with hot WC loads.

There was a show on "The Justice Files" IIRC and a woman shot her husband with two WC bullets and both fully penetrated his torso and were found in the room he was in. I am guessing those were the slow factory loads. They still worked pretty good.

I wish it would occur to someone like Speer to make a double cup ended WC bullet that could be shot around 900 fps with no danger of skirt blowout but would give a modest amount of expansion. I have tried the reversed hollow based wc loads and so far they have been a failure. They either tumble or the skirts mash flat when hitting water jugs. I won't waste anymore of them loaded like this.

Steve C
October 13, 2011, 03:46 PM
the full diameter meplat of the wadcutter will do more tissue damage than a round nose or semi-wadcutter.

That's the untested theory anyway. While the flat point produces some imagining of impact and effect no amount of imagining makes it a reality. Wad cutters have some problems, one is they are not stable at longer ranges and begin to tumble in addition to the low velocity loading you find in target ammo. If the wad cutter design was any better than any other solid bullet they would have been commonly used by law enforcement and others.

Personally I don't see how a WC is going to be any more effective than say a SWC or RN for that matter. People used solid lead bullets for a 100 years before JHP's came along. You would think they would have settled on the most effective during that time, the wad cutter design wasn't it.

90% of self defense ammo selection is the imagination of the person carrying the ammo and how it makes the "feel". If the ammo gives them confidence then they feel powerful and self assured regardless of the reality.

A solid bullet will work fine if place properly, a hollow point generally works better and if not placed in the best possible spot will generally make a larger hole facilitating more blood loss than any solid of the same caliber. If the hollow point fails to expand it is no worse than a solid bullet. The one thing that makes a solid more effective is higher velocity.

zxcvbob
October 13, 2011, 03:49 PM
DEWC's make big holes without expanding. The folks at my bullseye league always "WTH?!" when they score my targets because the holes (with sharp edges) almost look like .40 but they know I'm shooting a revolver -- so I tell them I've shooting a .39 Special, and they bitch about that. ;) The holes are noticeably larger than the HBWC's someone else is shooting.

dprice3844444
October 13, 2011, 03:57 PM
anything that pokes a hole wins.be like shooting ball ammo

Onward Allusion
October 13, 2011, 04:08 PM
The-Reaver
Posts: 329
Wadcutters for Protection?

If it (WC & SWC) was good for LEOs for decades before the wondernines came around, I would think it's good enough for HD/SD. Low recoil as well. But (always a but) I would not use 'em if I had better options.

Tallinar
October 13, 2011, 04:10 PM
Personally I don't see how a WC is going to be any more effective than say a SWC or RN for that matter.

I remember reading a recent thread on here that discussed some testing that was done on just this subject (FWC vs SWC tissue damage). I don't recall all the details, but it was determined that the SWC caused a smaller entry wound than FWC. It was observed that the nose of the SWC begins the "shockwave" to the tissue upon contact, such that the sharp edges of the bullet at the widest point did not fully contact flesh. I don't recall all the fine points.

People used solid lead bullets for a 100 years before JHP's came along. You would think they would have settled on the most effective during that time, the wad cutter design wasn't it.

I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but I think it should be noted that there were other factors that contributed to the moving away from solid lead bullets; such as the migration to semi-automatics - which simply won't feed FWC's generally - as well as the advent of smokeless powder - which made higher velocities possible to the point where leading becomes an issue without some sort of gas-check. I don't think the FWC disappeared from defensive use simply because it was considered insufficient for the application. Perhaps it was simply surpassed in popularity by products that have a wider application? I may be wrong.

I would have no reservations carrying FWC's in my revolvers for defensive use.

DWFan
October 13, 2011, 04:14 PM
Wadcutters are a close-range bullet, but so are the majority of self defense scenarios. Shoot someone much past 25-30 yards and the police and/or the DA are going to question the threat. As far as low velocity, that's only because they are usually cast from very soft alloy. Putting a gas check on them lets you up the velocity. Some do offer hard cast though.
But there is something better. The Manstopper from Northwest Custom Projectile. Available in .357, .40, .44, .45 and even .50 caliber, they are a jacketted hollow-nose wadcutter with a center post to aid expansion.
Both Northwest Custom and Reed's Ammo offer loaded ammunition.
http://www.customprojectile.com/
www.reedsammo.com

Old Fuff
October 13, 2011, 07:18 PM
A mid-range .38 Special wadcutter cartridge, offers about the same velocity as a .38 S&W round, but with a much more effective bullet. I often load my "inside the house" revolver with them where a shot is unlikely to be over 15 feet. Makes the neighbors across the street feel more warm and fuzzy, and at the given distance I have no doubt they'll do what I want them to.

Under other conditions, generally no.

The-Reaver
October 13, 2011, 07:18 PM
That thing looks like a lugnut.

WardenWolf
October 13, 2011, 07:21 PM
It's a fairly common practice to load wadcutters both because of their often lower recoil and the size of the wound they create. It's a very attractive combination for home defense.

Ratshooter
October 13, 2011, 08:05 PM
Personally I don't see how a WC is going to be any more effective than say a SWC or RN for that matter. People used solid lead bullets for a 100 years before JHP's came along. You would think they would have settled on the most effective during that time, the wad cutter design wasn't it.

90% of self defense ammo selection is the imagination of the person carrying the ammo and how it makes the "feel". If the ammo gives them confidence then they feel powerful and self assured regardless of the reality.

A solid bullet will work fine if place properly, a hollow point generally works better and if not placed in the best possible spot will generally make a larger hole facilitating more blood loss than any solid of the same caliber. If the hollow point fails to expand it is no worse than a solid bullet. The one thing that makes a solid more effective is higher velocity

This is most likely the best response in the whole thread so far. Any bullet can and has killed. If all I could get my hands on were round nose lead I wouldn't feel too worried. I would just try to make sure my shots were as well placed as I could make them.

bluetopper
October 13, 2011, 08:15 PM
A double ended wadcutter loaded with 12gr of 2400 behind it in a 357 case makes one of the most destructive rounds I can imagine in a handgun. I always keep a few loaded and handy.

VA27
October 13, 2011, 08:52 PM
...Wad cutters have some problems, one is they are not stable at longer ranges and begin to tumble...

They are perfectly stable at 50 yards and make nice round holes. Ask anyone who has shot PPC. I think that qualifies as long range for a handgun.

I carry 'em in my house/backup gun. If they don't work out I'll have my next-of-kin post here.:D

4v50 Gary
October 13, 2011, 08:57 PM
I used to have inverted 148 grain HBWC for a home defense load. That was before I went into law enforcement (afterwards I just used issue stuff).

Bullet placement is everything. A 148 grain hollow base wadcutter that hits smack in your opponent's forehead beats a 45 ACP Black Talon that misses. It's also better than a sharp stick or harsh words that Art's Gramma wouldn't approve of. ;)

Pyro
October 13, 2011, 09:26 PM
Alright so my question is full expansion and energy transfer is what you want correct?
Well wouldn't a Wadcutter work for full expansion, I mean its pretty soft lead. And its already flat. Any reason it should do an awesome job as a HD load?
RvR
I do not want "full expansion and energy transfer", just something that'll poke nice big holes. All I carry is wadcutters in .32 and 38 Special.
Well first my .32 needs HBWC or else it'll keyhole and that they literally acted like flying hole punches in my wetpack tests.
Those Buffalo Bore 38 Special wadcutters...man are they wrecking balls.

I like them, don't need to worry about a JHP clogging or whatnot.

Super Sneaky Steve
October 13, 2011, 10:04 PM
After shooting so many of my midrange .38 special hand loads I got to thinking that they are so easy for me to shoot quickly and accurately that I'd like to use something like that for SD but hollow points may not expand at those lower speeds. Wad cutters might be just the ticket.

suemarkp
October 13, 2011, 11:43 PM
That's the untested theory anyway. While the flat point produces some imagining of impact and effect no amount of imagining makes it a reality. Wad cutters have some problems, one is they are not stable at longer ranges and begin to tumble in addition to the low velocity loading you find in target ammo. If the wad cutter design was any better than any other solid bullet they would have been commonly used by law enforcement and others.

The "theory" is easily verified in gelatin testing. The permanent crush cavity diameter depends on nose shape, velocity, and bullet diameter. All bullet shapes make a permanent cavity slightly larger than bullet diameter if the velocity is 600 fps or faster. A SWC makes are larger hole than a RN and the full WC makes the biggest. These hole sizes are guaranteed (at least in flesh with a similar density to gelatin) and don't require any expansion of the bullet.

Whether this makes a lot of actual difference can be debated. There are failures for 45 LRN and successes with 32 LRN. It is hard to compare in actual results because people are different, but if I can have a guaranteed 36 cal hole or 38 cal hole or 40 cal hole from a 355 bullet, I'll take the 40 cal hole if it has sufficient penetration.

I would be interested in knowing if WC's are more stable if they are driven faster or from a faster twist barrel. I can see why they would be aerodynamically unstable regardless, but at the ranges they will be used I don't think it matters. Perhaps the next best thing is the WFN or Keith style SWC where the meplat is ~90% caliber diameter.

Speedloaders could also be an issue of why law enforcement didn't use them. I think they'd be good for the rounds IN the gun though.

PO2Hammer
October 14, 2011, 12:09 AM
Personally I don't see how a WC is going to be any more effective than say a SWC or RN for that matter.
WC's and SWC's have been proven to be more effective than RN's by hundreds of handgun hunters in the days before reliable hollow points. Also in the European goat tests, forget the name of the tests, but a bunch of ~150 pound goats, selected for their closeness to humans, were shot with various handgun calibers. Round nose bullets proved to be very ineffective and some goats continued munching on their hay after being shot with RN's and took many minutes to succumb to their wounds.
WC's and SWC's proved much more effective than RN's.
Keith, Jordan, Bryce, Skelton, Cirillo and many other experienced shooters would agree.

ColtPythonElite
October 14, 2011, 12:21 AM
I'd have zero issues with using wadcutters for SD as far as ballistics goes. My only issue is they are a bit more tricky to reload than SWC's.

gamestalker
October 14, 2011, 08:05 AM
Back in the late 1980's the country store I worked at was robbed on the night I was supposed to be working on, but that's another story for another time. Anyway, the young lady that was working my shift had her husband working with her that night. Long story short, he made her husband kneel and then he shot him in the back of the head at point blank range with a .357 mag. loaded with WC's. The round knocked him out cold of course and produced a lot of blood too. But because those were so increadibly under powered, the WC just basically bounced off his skull and the bad guy left thinking he had just executed the husband, who by the way was released from the hospital the next day. Those were a factory load brand called combat, if my memory serves me well. The rest of this story didn't go as well as that particular incident, and people did die, and women raped during his 3-4 day crime spree.

No, I carry full house jacketed hand loads in all my S.D. handguns with the only exception being for my wife and daughter. They both carry .357 mag. wheel guns loaded with high velocity jacketed 110 gr. bullets chronographed at around 1250 fps. I carry a .357 mag. snubby loaded with 125 gr. XTP's or Gold Dots @ 1580 fps, or 158 gr. XTP's or Gold Dots @ 1300 fps, and a very hefty charge of H110 or 296 to get them up there.

Given your desire for stopping power with decent penetration, I would go with a Gold Dot Self Defense bullet, not the hunting one because it doesn't expand as reliably at lower velocity. Golden Saber is another good performing S.D. round. I didn't notice if you reload or not, so based on that I would recomend a factory S.D. round in either Gold Dot or Golden Saber. And if you have a bunch of money, you can order some custom stuff from the people who make CoreBon. I've heard and seen some really good things about their product.

StrawHat
October 14, 2011, 08:38 AM
DEWC are easily cast from a variety of bullet molds. You can tailor the alloy to your needs. I cast them a bit hard and load them to 900 fps. They work great on game up to coyote. Never tried them on anything larger.

When I was in LE, I was told by the Medical Examiner that the because of his work and experiences, he carried WC in hid revolver.

woad_yurt
October 14, 2011, 09:10 AM
anything that pokes a hole wins.be like shooting ball ammo

Er, not true. Round nosed bullets, and that includes unexpanded hollowpoints, split tissue, which our bodies tend to close back up quickly. Wadcutters punch out a hole, removing tissue. They make for a greater wound channel, which works kinda like a tube-less cannula.* They do the same in tissue as on paper. The problem with wadcutters is that factory wadcutter ammo is for taget use (lightly loaded.) If one reloads, one can get around that.

I use Speer 148 gr LHBWCs with 4 gr of Win 231. Once you put some decent muzzle energy behind one, you've got a serious round. I get to practice with my SD load for pennies, too.

* Google it!

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
October 14, 2011, 09:58 AM
Check out Buffalo Bore WC. They are not loaded light. A 200 gr 44 spl
wadcutter at over 900 fps in a Charter Arms . That's NOT light!

HankB
October 14, 2011, 10:12 AM
The only reasons to use a light wadcutter target load for defense is if a) that's the only ammo available; or b) if the shooter has some infirmity that precludes use of a load with more recoil.

It certainly can be lethal - but so can a .22 short. But that doesn't make either a good choice for self defense.

A DEWC, loaded up, is very different than a light wadcutter target load, and will probably be a little better than an equivalent SWC.

An HBWC loaded backwards can be an extremely effective load at higher velocity, although brand does seem to make a difference. I've done testing in various media and have been impressed with these loads, and I've witnessed the coup-de-grace administered to a big wounded whitetail doe and was even more impressed.

PO2Hammer
October 14, 2011, 11:53 AM
Is penetration adequate with the reverse loaded HBWC?

USSR
October 14, 2011, 12:33 PM
Is penetration adequate with the reverse loaded HBWC?

I don't see why it wouldn't be. The hollowbase is wide and shallow.

Don

tx_pistolero
October 14, 2011, 02:06 PM
I have quite a bit of experience with .357 rounds on boar. The best of all, were 158gr SWC. Winchester silvertips didn't penetrate enough, they were not good at all. JSPs were good. Pretty darn effective. SWCs dropped them in their tracks. Incidentally, these were all out of a .357 lever gun. Out of a pistol the .357 is iffy for boar, for some reason the extra velocity makes a surprising difference.

I have loaded some hot 158gr full WCs that I am itching to try. I'll report back on how they do.

pete950
October 14, 2011, 05:25 PM
This toppic has been discussed a lot.
look into Jim Cirillo and his "Safe Stop" ammunition wich is a full plated wadcutter with a "V" notch. This is what I carry in my back up.

A full wadcutter will penetrate and cut like a cookie cutter, cutting through flesh and arteries causing massive blood loss. A round nose will just push through closing behind it.

PO2Hammer
October 14, 2011, 05:30 PM
Speaking of Cirillo, anyone remember the old Super Vel ammo that was tubular and pushed by a plastic wad?

Steve C
October 14, 2011, 07:12 PM
anyone remember the old Super Vel ammo that was tubular and pushed by a plastic wad?

Never saw anything like that from Super Vel but it was loaded by PMC as their ULTRAMAG tubular.

http://www.members.cox.net/scollins15/Pictures/PMCtubular480.jpg

http://www.members.cox.net/scollins15/Pictures/PMCtubular480A.jpg

Pyro
October 14, 2011, 07:18 PM
^^^Flying cookie cutter.

Ratshooter
October 14, 2011, 08:15 PM
Speaking of Cirillo, anyone remember the old Super Vel ammo that was tubular and pushed by a plastic wad?

So far as I know Cirillo never had anything to with Super Vel. It was Lee Jurras that made those.

NM Mountainman
October 14, 2011, 09:54 PM
As usual, rcmodel gives excellent and accurate information in Post #4.

A solid bevel base WC at maximum velocity is as good as any lead bullet (and better than many jacketed ones) for a self SD load in .38 special, especially if the barrel is less than 4". I prefer factory loads for SD, and as far as I know, no ammo with WC at full velocity is being sold commercially. The bevel base WC bullets are also getting harder for hand loaders to find. So WC SD will not be a good option for most shooters.

My wife was sensitive to recoil; and when I was going to be out of town she would load my S&W model 19 with .38 cal wadcutter hand loads. She kept a speed loader filled with 125 gr JHP .38 +P loads for easier reloading.

The midrange .38 target ammo loaded with HBWC might be useful for an extremely recoil sensitive shooter in a light .38 snub (or in a .38 derringer if you are so inclined.) But I consider it inadequate as a self defense load.

Loading a HBWC backwards to make a wide hollow point does not work reliably. The bullet typically penetrates poorly and often keyholes. They often cause a lot of leading and are usually inaccurate. There is no reason to play around with such a load when there are so many better alternatives available.

During the 1970's there was no widely available .38 ammo which expanded reliably when fired from a snub. (Some claimed that Super Vel 110 gr worked well.) A friend who was an FBI agent carried the reversed HBWC loads in his snub .38 because another agent had told him they were great man stoppers. After we tested them extensively, he immediately quit using them and persuaded his friend to quit using them too.

Speer Short Barrel ammo for .38 or .357 is excellent low recoil ammo which will expand well when fired from a 2" or 4" barrel. There is no need to consider WC or other lead bullet styles unless you just like lead bullets better.

PO2Hammer
October 15, 2011, 12:07 AM
So far as I know Cirillo never had anything to with Super Vel. It was Lee Jurras that made those.
Lee Jurras owned the company, but my slightly fuzzy memory tells me that Cirillo was a consultant on that project after his experiences on the NYPD stake out squad where the issued .38 spl LRN failed miserably. They were after a bullet that wouldn't glance off a perp's skull like the LRN did.

JustsayMo
October 15, 2011, 10:01 AM
On Game - Deer, Elk & Bears - my experience favors lead bullets over JHP's or JSP's for fast kills and penetration. That includes kills made with handguns. Two holes gets em leaking and so far (knock on wood) no tracking required. Can't say that about JHP's on even Blacktail Deer hit with 44 Magnum.

pete950
October 15, 2011, 12:02 PM
Here are some pictures of the late "Jim Cirillos" safe stops.

I have more pictures and information when I get time today or tomorrow I will post it

Elmer
October 16, 2011, 05:05 AM
Factory target wadcutters will penetrate deeply, something that many lightweight hollow points won't do. Expanding bullets, with good penetration are preferable, but in a 2", that's not common. Given a choice between the two, I'll take penetration every time.

Plenty of old IWBA guys will recommend using wadcutters for a low recoiling, easy to shoot, effective defense load. They're far better than some esoteric loads folks spend twice as much, and more for.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
October 16, 2011, 11:30 AM
Well this is something I consider myself a expert on. I have thought a lot
about it. I try to use common sense, not energy figures, or bullet hype.
I am almost 70 so I have to carry what's best for me, not what's best for
someone in their 20's, or when I was in my 20's or 30's. But for me, now.
I carry a Charter Arms Bulldog 44 Spl. made in 1977. I have had this since
1977. Shot a lot of real hot loads thru it. It is still tight and shoots excellcent
I have it down to two loads to carry. The 200 gr. Blazer Gold Dot at about
850 fps and the Buffalo Bore 200 gr Wadcutter at 925 fps. The Gold Dot
looks real good when it expands. The big question here is WHEN it expands.
When it don't you might as well just be shooting round nose hardball. I really
don't want to bet my life that it will expand. On the other hand the Wadcutter is very hard and won't expand, but it doesn't have to. It just
cuts a big hole almost 1/2 inch dia.and penterates almost 2 feet!. It has
been proven that a hard cast simi-wadcutter of 44 cal or 45 at around 900
fps has killed bear and will go from end to end on one, and just about
everything else. So bottom line for me, and I am not a gambler, is the
full Wadcutter at over 900 fps. Common sense tell me that. Anyway that's
my story and I'm sticking to it. That's the way I see it.

Scipio Africanus
October 16, 2011, 08:31 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said. I am not a gambler either. Big, flat nose bullets are always a good decision.

sixgunner455
October 16, 2011, 09:49 PM
There is no such thing as energy transfer with handgun bullets. The bullet uses the energy as it pokes a hole. Wider, deeper holes are better than shallow, narrower ones, if you can make a choice.

Wadcutters and WFN and SWC are like cookie cutters. They punch through stuff. I carry a HC-WFN in my .357 when hiking in bear and lion country. I usually carry a very accurate JHP in my 642, but would be happy carrying a SWC or WC.

Al Thompson
October 18, 2011, 10:57 AM
http://www.brassfetcher.com/38wadcutter.html

Food for though. 148 grain Federal Gold Match WC from a snubbie.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com
October 18, 2011, 11:58 AM
Now, Can you imagine a 200 gr like that only in 44 and going 950 fps!!!

Vern Humphrey
October 18, 2011, 01:28 PM
I carried 148 grain hollowbase wadcutters loaded backwards in my Colt M357 my first tour in Viet Nam. I don't remember the exact charge, but it was Unique, and listed as max in the old reloading manual I had at the time.

This load leaded ferociously -- but it worked, both times I had to use it.

Dnaltrop
October 18, 2011, 02:41 PM
Most of my shooting in .38 has been WC/SWC, loaded by the golf-ball bucket by my (now deceased) Saint of a Great Uncle for the joy of having something to do.

He believed in the round, fed his revolvers a steady diet of them, he punched paper with them, he carried them for duty, and for home defense.

TonyT
October 19, 2011, 09:15 AM
Years before the current JHP ammo was available it was common practise to load a LHBWC upside down with a gas check on what is now the base. It was reputed to do the job at close distances without over penetration.

Vern Humphrey
October 19, 2011, 05:08 PM
Years before the current JHP ammo was available it was common practise to load a LHBWC upside down with a gas check on what is now the base. It was reputed to do the job at close distances without over penetration.
Someone may have done something like that on a bullet that resembled an upside down LHBWC, but you can't put a gas check on a real upside down LHBWC. The base of the bullet has to be rebated to take a gas check -- the gas check is too small to fit the full width of a bullet.

Carbonator
October 19, 2011, 09:14 PM
Wish those SafeStops were still being made. Full flat copper jacketed wadcutters are exactly what I want for my .44 Special. Or perhaps better yet without the split top. I can't shoot lead and I don't want to keep exposed lead reloads in my pocket so Buffalo Bore's lead wadcutter is a no go for me.

Love the idea of full wadcutters. I see hollowpoints being like a crumple zone in front of a car - modern cars have more damage to the car (hollowpoint) and less to the thing being hit (bad guy). An old buick (full wadcutter) could really plow through an accident and not receive much damage. Remember when those SUV front bumpers were being blamed for causing more damage to pedestrians because they didn't crumple like a car hood?

Rigid SUV bumper = Full copper jacketed wadcutter

Modern crumple design car = Hollowpoint

Which would you rather be hit by?

I think there's too much focus on what a mushroomed bullet looks like. How much energy was lost deforming that hollowpoint? I think the marketing guys and patent attorneys got a hold of the bullet industry and pushed hollowpoints to the point of pushing out the wadcutter crowd. You can't change a full flat wadcutter and get a patent on it or market it as much different than the next company's full flat wadcutter. I hope the wadcutters make a come back.

Go wadcutters! :evil:

Vern Humphrey
October 19, 2011, 09:27 PM
Rigid SUV bumper = Full copper jacketed wadcutter

Modern crumple design car = Hollowpoint

Which would you rather be hit by?
It's the hole that kills -- especially in handguns. The bigger the hole, the better. Which would you rather have, a .429" hole or a .90" hole?

Pyro
October 19, 2011, 09:31 PM
Heh, I don't think I could connect different bullets with cars but I get the gist of it.

I want a bullet that will perform flawlessly. The only JHP bullet I've seen with such a positive test performance through multiple barriers is the Corbon DPX. Than it comes down to velocity. If I was carrying a 4 inch revolver I'd go for the DPX since it is of a lighter weight. When I have my derringer in the pocket I have two Buffalo Bore wadcutters. My derringer has a barrel length of 1 6/8 and according to brassfetcher that 150 grain hole puncher has been caught above 900 fps in a 1 7/8 barrel. This ain't a target load by a long stretch.

Vern, I want a hole that digs deep and through some good stuff like organs and bone. Not carrying about size all that much, if you can make holes in the bad guy your doing your job pretty good.

gordonagain
October 19, 2011, 09:49 PM
Today there are hp rounds that will expand out of a 2" barrel. The Remington FBI loads, Corbon DPX, and the Short Barrel Gold Dots have all shown expansion out of snubbies. Wadcutters won't likely produce as much crush cavity as a good hp but I think it's a safe bet that they'll produce more crush cavity than a round nose and have less recoil than most hp rounds. Atlanta Arms and Ammo makes a jacketed wadcutter. They are excellent. I carried them in my j-frame.

Carbonator
October 19, 2011, 11:20 PM
gordonagain - is that Atlanta Arms product a complete ready to fire round or just the bullet?

pete950
October 20, 2011, 01:17 AM
That Atlanta Arms stuff is listed at 650fps I wonder how slow it is out of a snub.

The safe stops are 750 for the non +p out of a snub!!!

Low Budget Shooter
October 20, 2011, 03:08 AM
Fellow WC Lovers,

I recently learned two WC tricks that probably has been known for years to the more experienced shooters, but may be news to many of us:

First, for ease of loading:

1. Cast or buy a bevel-base WC bullet
2. Load with the bevel-base forward
3. Seat bullet not flush with case, but out a bit
4. See how easy it is to load into the revolver's charging holes compare with flush WCs!

Second, for improved power: load at honest .38 special velocities, instead of target velocities. For example, use 3.5gr Bullseye instead of 2.7gr. I'm sure this is not a max load, but probably about 800fps instead of 600fps. It's still pretty mild on the shooter, and probably more problematic for the shootee.

LBS

woad_yurt
October 20, 2011, 08:32 AM
Why use the wadcutters at all if one loads them beveled end forward? By forward, I assume that you mean backwards or upside down. If a beveled end is facing one's target, it's not performing as a wadcutter anymore.

Low Budget Shooter
October 20, 2011, 09:42 AM
Dear WY,

On the mold I use, the bevel is so slight it's difficult to see without looking really closely. I don't think it ruins the wadcutter effect.

LBS

woad_yurt
October 20, 2011, 05:12 PM
Does it punch a perfect hole in paper?

Pyro
October 20, 2011, 05:14 PM
Anybody here hear of Blue Bunny?
Didn't they market a copper jacketed reverse wad cutter in 38 Special?

zxcvbob
October 20, 2011, 07:27 PM
Does it punch a perfect hole in paper?
Yes they do, even at low velocities. (I have a bevel-base WC mold)

The bevels help when loading from a speed strip or individually, but it still sucks trying to load them 6-at-a-time with a speedloader. It is possible, and not even all that hard, but it's slow.

pete950
October 20, 2011, 10:31 PM
The guy at "Blue Bunny" uses Berry's HBWC reversed.

zxcvbob
October 20, 2011, 10:46 PM
The guy at "Blue Bunny" uses Berry's HBWC reversed.

I would not expect those to expand much at .38 Special velocities. (of course they don't have to expand to be effective) They would probably be better loaded normal; more room for powder, and more stable with the weight forward. I think I have a half a box of those bullets somewhere...

OTOH, maybe they are supposed to tumble when they hit rather than expand, like that 5.45mm Russian rifle round.

pete950
October 21, 2011, 01:06 AM
Blue Bunny GOLDEN SHOT

olafhardtB
October 21, 2011, 03:43 AM
I load the Lee modern minie over 6.4grains of Unique in my500 s&w handy rifle. I cast out of WW plus 2% tin, air cooled. What I like about the reversed hbwc loaded flush is that it takes up so much of the extra space. I have not chronied mine ; however it is conceiveable that with less powder space avialable the reversed WC could be more efficient. Both configurations of the hollow based :banghead:wadcutters seal the barrel-cylinder gap longer in a revolver.

Al Thompson
October 21, 2011, 08:58 AM
Carbonator, the Atlanta Arms FMJ wadcutter is loaded ammo. I have a couple of boxes left out of a case, it's good stuff.

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