Energy, knockdown power, and real world results.


PDA






Blue Brick
October 14, 2011, 01:01 PM
What is your opinion about energy versus knockdown power versus real world results? It seems that most of the popular police and civilian cartridges have low scores even through they have high energy levels.

Example: Federal 9mm 115gr +P+ @ 1300fps/432fpe = KO of 7

Example: Federal 45 Colt 225gr @ 830ps/344fpe = KO of 12

Example: Federal 357 Magnum 158gr @ 1240fps/539fpe = KO 9

Example: Federal 380 Auto 90gr @ 1000fps/200fps = KO 4


http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

If you enjoyed reading about "Energy, knockdown power, and real world results." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Pyro
October 14, 2011, 01:20 PM
You can give me the scientific equation of throwing a weighted line at x velocity and y distance but to me it'll be just called fishing.

If we all went by numbers we'd be carrying Magsafes or other "extreme performance" bullet.
(Very High velocity and high energy but when you apply the human aspect to the equation is performs quite poorly).

Loosedhorse
October 14, 2011, 01:31 PM
Taylor KO values were designed by him as being roughly representative of his VAST experience in hunting elephant with head shots.

Why folks feel the TKO scores should be useful in any other realm escapes me.

Many will tell you (in one way or another) that real-world shooting results don't matter, because they are heavily influenced by "psychological stops" that are undependable, and because "good data" is very hard to come by.

Others look at the imperfect real-world data we have and try to draw limited conclusions from it.

481
October 14, 2011, 01:31 PM
TKO is an arbitrary and dimensionless scale, that has little real world practicality.

While people can collapse as a result of the damage produced in vital organs by the projectile's passage, there is no way that a bullet can by direct action knock someone to the ground through irresistible force- at least not with anything that doesn't qualify as artillery.

Japle
October 14, 2011, 02:28 PM
The truth is, no one knows exactly why one handgun cartridge works better than another. Theories abound. Statitstics bury us. No one knows, though.

Four examples:

The .357 125 gr JHP at 1400+ fps and 500+ fpe works great.
The 9mm 115 gr +P+ JHP at 1300+ fps and 400+ fpe works great.
The .40 S&W 180 gr JHP at 950 fps and 360 fpe works great.
The .45 230 gr JHP at 850 fps and 370 fpe works great.

Why? Beats me.

The 9mm and .357 loads often fragment, while the .40 and .45 usually don't.

The .357 load has nearly 40% more energy than the .45. Does it work better? Not so you'd notice.

Personally, I'd carry any of the current premium JHP SD loads marketed by one of the major manufacturers and not worry about it.

What I do carry is 9PBLE (115 gr +P+ 9mm) in my XDm 3.8 and CorBon 90 gr .380 in my BUG.

laguna0seca
October 14, 2011, 02:34 PM
I own a 10mm. On paper, the 10mm has tremendous energy and a pretty good capacity. But I choose to carry the 9mm more often than not, simply due to the fact that I like to have more rounds. In my experience, they tend to disappear a lot quicker than you expect them to.

madcratebuilder
October 15, 2011, 08:32 AM
This is the best study of REAL WORLD RESULTS I have found.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 15, 2011, 09:38 AM
The bottom line really is, you can shoot anything with anything and what is going to make the biggest difference between shots is SHOT-PLACEMENT!

So, in a way, you could say there are three important things to buying ammo that will do its job and they are:
*Shot Placement
*Shot Placement
*Shot Placement
*not necessarily in that order!

You could kill a large animal or a person with a pellet gun and possibly even with a high-powered BB gun, if you happen to hit the target in just the right place and at just the right angle!;)

willypete
October 15, 2011, 10:36 AM
TKO is designed to measure the effectiveness of large-bore African fighting rifles at knocking out an elephant with a shot that hits the head, but does not penetrate the brain. Hence the name "Taylor Knockout".

As stated earlier, it's arbitrarily based on one man's anecdotal conclusions on shooting elephants in the head with big, heavy rifle calibers.

I wish people would stop trying to draw conclusions about anything but African dangerous game calibers using TKO...

I think practicing with what you carry is more important than crunching numbers about what you could carry. A man with a $300 plastic .380 who shoots a few hundred rounds a month is probably better off than a man with a $3,000 designer pistol in a major caliber that shoots 100 or less rounds a year. JMO, YMMV, IANAL, etc.

bsms
October 15, 2011, 04:44 PM
Your best bet is probably to talk to hunters. Will it work well against deer and hogs? If so, it will work fine against humans. Maybe more than needed. If it doesn't penetrate a deer side-to-side, or fragments 2" in, then it will probably suck against a human.

Hunters are much more practical about what works and what does not than ballistics calculators. Bullet construction is probably more important than energy.

MCgunner
October 15, 2011, 06:19 PM
Energy is physics. Fackler is a story teller. I'm a hunter. That's why I believe as I do. Too many DRTs from lung shots to believe otherwise.

MCgunner
October 15, 2011, 06:28 PM
Read here..... http://www.btgresearch.org/

oldfool
October 15, 2011, 07:27 PM
I am a used-to-be-hunter, and agree 100% with McGunner and bsms

as an Engineer, I find numbers and jello results real interesting and informative
but for "what works", aim well and ask bambi, biggie piggie, and papa bear

Loosedhorse
October 15, 2011, 08:11 PM
Geez, guys! I see no big disagreements, and no insults. Everything said is reasonable, and is reasonably said.

What a change from the usual "stopping power" threads. Guess I should hang out in "Revolvers" more often. Tip of the hat.

MCgunner
October 15, 2011, 08:45 PM
Well, I for one KNOW it ain't going to happen that I convince any of the big bullet guys my opinion, so no sense getting all riled up over it, right? We all believe what we believe and they make (thankfully) lots of firearm types and calibers to make us happy. :D While I like to read and think about all the theory, when it comes right down to it, I carry what i carry because I can conceal it. Can't shove a shotgun in my pocket.

481
October 16, 2011, 12:59 AM
Geez, guys! I see no big disagreements, and no insults. Everything said is reasonable, and is reasonably said.

What a change from the usual "stopping power" threads. Guess I should hang out in "Revolvers" more often. Tip of the hat.

If the usual "stopping power" threads trouble you that much, there is nothing that requires you to read them or post therein.

kozak6
October 16, 2011, 02:43 AM
TKO doesn't really mean anything. It's just a made up factor for ranking African big game cartridges.

People make a big deal about energy, although I think momentum is generally more relevant.

MCgunner
October 16, 2011, 05:27 AM
People make a big deal about energy, although I think momentum is generally more relevant.

Yeah, that's why the A bomb was so effective, mass of the bomb dropped from 20,000 feet, doncha know? :rolleyes:

kozak6
October 16, 2011, 07:05 AM
Thank you for your realistic and carefully argued criticism of my post. I can truthfully say that I never considered that side of the argument.

The above calculator also conveniently calculates momentum. With the exception of the .380, the rounds listed above aren't really all that far apart.

This seems reasonable when compared to other methods of evaluation such as ballistic gel tests.


http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/973/handgungelcomparison.jpg

mavracer
October 16, 2011, 09:17 AM
TKO is one man's opinion for a forrmula for compairing elephant rifle loads. It is also only relevant for non expanding bullets.
Energy and momentum are dependent on bullet design to best utalize them to produce tissue damage. In most cases given proper bullet design energy afffects cavitation more and momentum afffects penatration more. This is best shown in gel testing of different bullet weights in a single caliber. Like the 124gr 9mm vs the 147gr in the chart in the previous post.
Given adequate penatration a larger wound channel will cause more damage. Potential damage and bullet placement are the only two things you can controll. Bullet placement is much much more important so time spent improving them is best spent on shot placement. Take a little time and figure out how much gun you can handle then spend a lot of time shooting it. ;)

Loosedhorse
October 16, 2011, 11:36 AM
If the usual "stopping power" threads trouble you that much, there is nothing that requires you to read them or post therein. If my posts trouble you so much, there is nothing that requires you to read them, or respond to them.

Take your own advice. :p

I complimented the participants in this thread, including you. Guess some folks can't take a compliment. :D

sm
October 16, 2011, 11:55 AM
From original post:What is your opinion about energy versus knockdown power versus real world results?

Keep in mind I "are" just a dumb Southern boy.

Stuff don't know they are supposed to react to bullets according to data published by ammo manufactures, or Internet postings.

Steve

CraigC
October 16, 2011, 12:24 PM
Firstly, it's knockout, not knockdown.

IMHO, TKO is very useful within certain parameters, when properly applied. Outside that narrow field, it is useless. What one must remember is that it was devised as a way to compare cartridges and loads to each other. Not as a way to determine a cartridge's effectiveness on game. It was also devised as a way of comparing non-expanding solids in big bores, not expanding bullets and small bores. It is far more useful in comparing cartridges than energy figures, which I dismiss entirely. This is because energy is far too velocity dependent, which is the most rapidly diminishing factor. We know by the way these heavy and relatively slow bullets work that they do not kill in the same fashion. That their effectiveness far outweighs what muzzle energy would imply. TKO plays to their strengths, which is bullet diameter and mass. Which are constants. It places greater importance on those two factors and despite what the critics claim, is very useful in estimating how well a cartridge/load will penetrate.

When applied to expanding projectiles and high velocity, small bore rifles, it is simply the wrong tool for the job. I have NEVER read a post by its detractors that did not apply it incorrectly.

Gryffydd
October 16, 2011, 12:44 PM
Yeah, that's why the A bomb was so effective, mass of the bomb dropped from 20,000 feet, doncha know?
Yeah, that's because the wounding mechanics of an A Bomb are so similar little chunks of lead & copper flying through the air :D
That's almost as bad as saying "If you don't believe energy kills, stick your finger in this light socket".

If you enjoyed reading about "Energy, knockdown power, and real world results." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!