If I Tumble "SLOWLY" Enough... Is It Safe To Tumble Loaded Cartridges?


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Mike1234567
October 16, 2011, 11:22 AM
** Also, If I limit how many I tumble at a time and use plenty of media.

I just bought several boxes of Silver Bear 7.62x39 Match "8M1" ammo and the zinc is oxidizing. I want to remove the oxidation before I store them in sealed ammo cans with oxygen absorbent.

Is it safe?

Again.....
1. Very slow rotation
2. Twenty cartridges at a time
3. Lots of media

ETA: Added the caliber...

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rsrocket1
October 16, 2011, 11:30 AM
Why not just give them a light "wipe" with a scotch brite pad?
Yeah, tumbling is easier, but even if you have 100 cartridges, a couple dozen at a time won't take that long.


"just bought?'
1. Can't you take them back and tell the vendor the problem? If 240 rounds are corroded, chances are that his other stock is also corroded. You ought to get your money back

2. "Match"? (7.62x39 match is almost an oxymoron :) )
Are you shooting this in a precision bolt action rife? If it's an AK, I'll bet they will chamber just fine and shoot fine. There is quite a bit of tolerance in those chambers and they were meant to shoot dirty, muddy, oxidized ammo and still operate.

Mike1234567
October 16, 2011, 11:34 AM
I'm too lazy to wipe down 240 cartridges. :)

HK SD9 Tactical
October 16, 2011, 11:43 AM
There are two schools of thought on this:

Some people are adamantly opposed to tumbling loaded ammunition. Others say they have never encounted a problem in years and years of doing it.

There is a myriad of reasons "to" or "not to" do it.

Personal preference mostly......I doubt that you would set off a round if there is sufficient media to buffer them, but the possibility, however remote, may exist.

Do so at your own risk.

rcmodel
October 16, 2011, 11:53 AM
This question comes up about every fortnight, at least.
If you do a search, you will get pages & pages of hits on tumbling loaded ammo.

I vibrate clean everything I load after I load them.
(Except lead bullet loads. The media sticks to the bullet lube)

Not in small batches of 5, 10, or 20 at a time either.
I tumble whatever will fit in my Dillon polisher.

It is safe & it won't hurt a thing.
How do you think they get factory ammo so nice & shiny?

BTW: Your old Rusky ammo has already been vibrated and violated much more just getting it here from Russia, and from a U.S. sea port to where you got it then you can do with a case cleaner in 30 - 45 minutes.

Still not convenced?
See this:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6210696&postcount=71

rc

JohnM
October 16, 2011, 11:55 AM
I suppose all you can say is, "do it at your own risk".
But you gotta figure, ammo can take a lot of thrashing around without going off.
The strike of a firing pin is an intense point of impact.

jcwit
October 16, 2011, 12:08 PM
Mike, toss them in the tumbler, either kind, and have at it.

Do as rcmodel says.

rcmodel
October 16, 2011, 12:12 PM
IMO: A vibratory tumbler would be "safer" then a rotary tumbler.
If there is a "safer".

At least rounds are not being tossed around violently on top of each other where a bullet tip "could" hit a primer with some light force in a rotary.

rc

Mike1234567
October 16, 2011, 12:14 PM
Okay, folks, I'm taking the easy way out. :)

Sorry that my searches failed. Maybe I misspelled something and didn't "notis".

buck460XVR
October 16, 2011, 12:58 PM
This question comes up about every fortnight, at least.


....almost as much as "what caliber for bear?".;)



It is safe & it won't hurt a thing.
How do you think they get factory ammo so nice & shiny?


As usual, RC's info is correct and concise.

nojoke
October 16, 2011, 01:03 PM
Is there any data on how much force is required to set off a primer?

Can those forces be generated w/in a tumbler?

My shoot from the hip guesstimate is that when my gun's firing pin hits the primer quite a detent is left. I really doubt in a zillion years of tumbling in any tumbler could that sort of a detent be left behind.

rcmodel
October 16, 2011, 01:15 PM
Zactly!

Friction, Heat, or Impact sets off primers.

Friction can't happen to seated primers because all the components of the primer are tightly compressed together.

Heat is a non-issue, unless your tumbler motor shorts out and it burns to the ground.

Enough impact in a tumbler to dent the primer cup and smash the compound against the anvil?
Don't think so.

rc

DickM
October 16, 2011, 01:43 PM
The other myth about tumbling loaded rounds is that it will break up the powder granules and change the burning characteristics - i.e., the powder will burn faster and create dangerously high pressures. That isn't any more true than the myth about tumbling setting off the primers. I know someone who loaded up some rounds and tumbled them for a solid month - that's right, 30 days straight - and then pulled the bullets and carefully examined the powder. Absolutely no difference (and he didn't set any off during his little experiment either).

ArtP
October 16, 2011, 03:21 PM
The other myth about tumbling loaded rounds is that it will break up the powder granules and change the burning characteristics - i.e., the powder will burn faster and create dangerously high pressures.

This ^^^^^ is exactly what I was going to post as I read through the thread. The manual for Lyman tumblers cautions against tumbling live rounds for this very reason, powder breakdown.

My estimated guess is that Lyman inserts this information for lawyer reasons and it's probably ultra-conservative info. I also think the type of powder (ball or extruded) and the load density would play a role. I.E., I'd feel better about tumbling cases FULL of ball powder.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
October 16, 2011, 03:22 PM
Huh, perhaps I will tumble some of my reloads that are a bit tarnished!

rcmodel
October 16, 2011, 03:26 PM
Powder is polymer, or plastic, regardless of grain type.

It doesn't break down from tumbling.

The manufacture tumbles it in huge drums to add graphite and other coatings during the powder manufacturing process.

Once again, consider military ammo that gets hauled & vibrated all over the world in cargo planes, trucks, helicopters, tanks, and hummer's for weeks or months on end with no measurable change in performance.

rc

ArtP
October 16, 2011, 03:34 PM
Powder is polymer, or plastic, regardless of grain type.

It doesn't break down from tumbling.

The manufacture tumbles it in huge drums to add graphite and other coatings during the powder manufacturing process.

Once again, consider military ammo that gets hauled & vibrated all over the world in cargo planes, trucks, helicopters, tanks, and hummer's for weeks or months on end with no measurable change in performance.

rc

RC - I happen to completely believe you, and trust you. I just thought I 'd throw out another consideration.

The notion of breakdown from tumbling sort of made me think of the beach. That is, that waves over time can turn solid rock into sand. Given enough time, I don't think any material is immune to break down. But in the sense we're discussing it here, I understand your point.

rcmodel
October 16, 2011, 03:40 PM
I agree anything will break down given enough eons to do it.

But when I talk about tumbling loaded ammo, I'm talking about 30-45 minutes or less.

Thats about all it ever takes to get off toxic finger prints or mild tarnishing.

I would not recommend leaving it go for a day or a week.
Although I don't believe it would hurt the powder if you did.

rc

Walkalong
October 16, 2011, 03:46 PM
The other myth about tumbling loaded rounds is that it will break up the powder granules and change the burning characteristics - i.e., the powder will burn faster and create dangerously high pressures

Powder after 48 hours of tumbling.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6205368&postcount=35

Rollis R. Karvellis
October 16, 2011, 04:00 PM
The longest I, have ever tumbled loaded ammo is 48+ hours. And it looked good. Shot well also.

Mike1234567
October 16, 2011, 04:08 PM
Another Question: What do I do with the media after all the oxidized zinc is removed? Should I throw it away to avoid contaminating other brass/cartridges?

Seedtick
October 16, 2011, 04:22 PM
...I vibrate clean everything I load after I load them.
(Except lead bullet loads. The media sticks to the bullet lube)....

rc

rc,
The only lead I load is what I get from MBC.
I always give it a little finishing tumble in fine walnut/cobb/NuFinish but I've never had any media stick to mine.

What am I doing differently than you?? I also like the flat matte look they take on.

Seedtick

:)

rcmodel
October 16, 2011, 04:23 PM
How many rounds are you talking about anyway?

If less then a butt load I'd just throw a couple of used dryer sheets in with them.

It will pick up most of the dust.

Cartridge brass is already 30% zinc anyway.
A little more won't hurt it.

rc

Mike1234567
October 16, 2011, 04:25 PM
^^^ Not many rounds. Sorry, but I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to this. :)

rcmodel
October 16, 2011, 04:26 PM
What am I doing differently than you?? Probably using RNFP instead of SWC.

My cast & lubed SWC always seems to have a thin ring of lube around the front driving band that picks up tumbler dust and turns into hard packed gunk.

RN, RNFP, or TC don't do that.

But my last question deals with media that's been used quite a bit.If the media is already getting worn out & dirty, toss it when you get done.

Time for new media anyway.

rc

gamestalker
October 17, 2011, 01:50 PM
I really don't think anyone could have said it better or set the record straighter than did RCmodel ! The powder and primers are incredibly stable and resistent to adverse conditions. I've done it before without incident.

rondog
October 17, 2011, 02:02 PM
Yes, it's safe.

cfullgraf
October 17, 2011, 03:20 PM
BTW: Your old Rusky ammo has already been vibrated and violated much more just getting it here from Russia, and from a U.S. sea port to where you got it then you can do with a case cleaner in 30 - 45 minutes.



That brought up visions of the hold of an old Chinese steamer, you know the ones where they copied the Liberty ships, filled to the brim with all this Russian ammunition headed to capitalist America. The ship shudders with each time a cylinder fires on the engine causing a cacophony of noise in the hold as the steel cases shake and shudder around.

Sorry about the distraction.

Rollis R. Karvellis
October 17, 2011, 04:00 PM
Though I, have never flown in one, I, bet the C130's hauling, supplies produce some vibration also.

JohnM
October 17, 2011, 04:04 PM
Though I, have never flown in one, I, bet the C130's hauling, supplies produce some vibration also.

Some, but not bad. Don't have any idea how many hours I spent in one of those. The ones we used were pretty noisy.
We usually got out before they landed the damn things though. :D

SSN Vet
October 17, 2011, 04:32 PM
great resolution on those powder pics....

I'm impressed

T Bran
October 17, 2011, 07:40 PM
If you are concerned just put the tumbler in a trash can out in the yard sort of a redneck blast shield. I agree with RC nothing bad will happen. I once tumbled a box of Black Talons that were so nasty from water and gunk in a flooded basement that you would not recognise them. No problem but it took a full day to clean them up.

T

bigedp51
October 17, 2011, 08:19 PM
There are warnings not to put live ammunition in your case tumblers.

There are warnings not to send text messages on your phone while driving.

There are warnings not to drink and drive.

There are warnings not to lube your ammo and excess bolt thrust.

And right now at http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ there is a person giving out reloading information at this website. The problem is this person doesn't have a reloading press or even cast bullets.

At another website a psychic forum member told me I needed lasik eye surgery.

Sooner or later the drunk driver sending text messages on his phone is going to run head on into a brick wall.

Did any of you read about "NOT" filling your gas cans on the tailgate of trucks with plastic bed liners and the buildup of static electricity and the resulting fires.

Lets see these tumblers have rubber pads on the bottom of the tumbler and are not grounded and static electricity can build up in the tumbler bowl.

Have any of you ever refueled an aircraft, the aircraft and the refueling source are grounded to the same grounding point and the refueling source is grounded to the aircraft.

And then you have people who ignore printed warnings because they think nothing will happen to them. :rolleyes:

How many case tumblers have a three prong plug? Go ahead and keep playing with matches.

This is nothing more than arrogance of the highest order........

Walkalong
October 17, 2011, 08:23 PM
On whose part?

EddieNFL
October 17, 2011, 08:36 PM
On whose part?
I'm just guessin', but...

snuffy
October 17, 2011, 09:00 PM
Lets see these tumblers have rubber pads on the bottom of the tumbler and are not grounded and static electricity can build up in the tumbler bowl.

So what? Static electricity won't even set off exposed gunpowder, how can static do anything to a loaded cartridge?

Are you scared of your own shadow? Do you fear getting hit by meteors? With petty fears like yours, you better stay in bed, hoping it don't colapse and crush you.

What a bunch of paranoid ramblings. You better not be a shooter, nothing could ever be safe enough for you.

You'd better call the big four ammo companies here in the U.S. to tell them to stop tumbling their ammo before it's boxed up.

suzukisam
October 17, 2011, 10:35 PM
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/[/url] there is a person giving out reloading information at this website. The problem is this person doesn't have a reloading press or even cast bullets.

At another website a psychic forum member told me I needed lasik eye surgery.

Sooner or later the drunk driver sending text messages on his phone is going to run head on into a brick wall.

Did any of you read about "NOT" filling your gas cans on the tailgate of trucks with plastic bed liners and the buildup of static electricity and the resulting fires.

Lets see these tumblers have rubber pads on the bottom of the tumbler and are not grounded and static electricity can build up in the tumbler bowl.

Have any of you ever refueled an aircraft, the aircraft and the refueling source are grounded to the same grounding point and the refueling source is grounded to the aircraft.

And then you have people who ignore printed warnings because they think nothing will happen to them.

How many case tumblers have a three prong plug? Go ahead and keep playing with matches.

This is nothing more than arrogance of the highest order........]

we really need a tinfoil hat smiley face!;)

bigedp51
October 17, 2011, 11:39 PM
And how many of you so called experts are involved with product testing.

Lets see, how many of you smoke while pumping gas in your car.

From Accurate Shooter.com

Why You Should NOT Tumble Loaded Ammunition.

"While we are aware that some hand-loaders, particularly pistol shooters, tumble loaded ammo to remove residual lube or just to make their ammo nice and shiny, this is NOT a sensible procedure. RCBS and most ammo-makers specifically warn against tumbling live ammo in a vibratory tumbler. Hodgdon’s official policy is: “Completed ammo should not be tumbled. The powder will degrade and increase in burn speed.” (From Mike Daly, Customer Satisfaction Manager, Hodgdon/IMR.)"

"Tests run some years ago by a commercial entity did indicate that potentially dangerous changes in powder charge burning characteristics do take place after PROLONGED periods in either a vibratory or a tumbling cleaner.

The key word here is prolonged. Many manufacturers of ammunition do a final cleaning of their product either by tumbling or a vibratory process before boxing it for shipment. In no case is this allowed to exceed more than just a couple of minutes."

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/09/why-you-should-not-tumble-clean-loaded-ammo/


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/image002-1.gif

"we really need a tinfoil hat smiley face!"

What we need are a few more people who do factual research before making uninformed statements in an open forum. :what:

Now who do you want to believe, faceless strangers in a forum or the experts who do product testing on the ammunition you use. ;)

RhinoDefense
October 18, 2011, 01:01 AM
Newsflash! The major ammunition manufacturers tumble live ammunition. You are NOT going to change the burn of the powder in any way by tumbling in a vibratory tumbler. Ever. It simply doesn't work like that.

Ammunition goes through a much more violent handling during shipping across the country and even world and no issues arise from tumbling and jolting that occurs tens of thousands of times.

northark147
October 18, 2011, 01:20 AM
If a little bouncing and shaking is going to make ammo unsafe, I can guarentee there is no safe ammo in many parts of the south. Why can I guarantee this? Ammo is delivered on trucks, There are many roads down south that are so rough that 80,000 lb trucks doing the speed limit or less with air suspension to get air born every so many feet. These impacts are enough to break boxes and pallets, shake storage compartments open, shake everything out of storage compartments, break up ramen noodles stored in the truck so forth and so on, you get the idea. The vibration and bashing these trucks would give ammo or anything else is much worse than anything a tumbler could dream up.

JohnM
October 18, 2011, 08:35 AM
99.9% of all safety warnings seen on everything today is legalese CYA speak.
I worked in dangerous surroundings all my life and saw safety warnings and requirements reach amazing levels of absurdity.

Until someone can come up with something more than company XYZ says "tumbling loaded ammunition is dangerous" it should be treated as hearsay.
Lets see some documented reports of all these so called "studies"

SlamFire1
October 18, 2011, 08:48 AM
Once again, consider military ammo that gets hauled & vibrated all over the world in cargo planes, trucks, helicopters, tanks, and hummer's for weeks or months on end with no measurable change in performance.

I had been talking to Ammunition Specialists and to Active Duty. Ammunition that has been bumped around in vehicles is replaced, apparently on a schedule, because the stuff is either inconsistent, or unreliable. I forget which I heard.

I am of the opinion that tumbling will degrade the outside of powder. I cannot see how it cannot. The powder is tumbling just like your media. The outside of my media gets ground down, because the amount of dust in my media always goes up in time. I don't see a reason why this won't happen to powder granules.

How much time and what the cut off, I don't know.

Walkalong
October 18, 2011, 09:18 AM
What we needAre people who can make a point without being confrontational and without calling people names to try to put them down.

Like Officer Webb used to say, just the facts maam.

Mike1234567
October 18, 2011, 09:22 AM
Yeah, let's please keep it civil, folks. :) Many a thread of late took a tumble and was subsequently blown up by a mod. We should all just relax and take a powder. :D

quartermaster
October 18, 2011, 10:09 AM
I always tumble my rifle brass or ultrasonically clean them after all the prep is done and just prior to loading. I always felt that there was too much effort put forth into wiping and that it never would quite get all the lube off anyway. I like my ammo to look good when I'm finished. Eventually it gets dull anyhow, but when I box it up iti is nice and shiny.

I use a Dillon press for pistols and even though the dies are carbide, I use the Hornady spray lube which isn't supposed to contaminate primers or powder on the all brass prior to loading. I guess it feel that it is easier on the dies. Most of my friends tell me it's a waste of time, but to me reloading is a labor of love. I have tried wiping that stuff off and it is a futile task, so I elected to try the easier method of tumbling. I have had my RCBS sidewinder and 2 Lyman tumblers going at the same time many times. I was concerned also the first time I did it, especially with the sidewinder as it is alot more aggressive than the tumblers. I usually tumble them for around 8 hours and have never had a problem. At this point in time, I don't worry about doing it at all. My only problem that I encounter is the media gets filthy pretty fast and has to get dicarded more often than I'd like.

I would say to go for it Mike. The tediuous hand work that we all used to do when reloading, such as wiping cases, chamfering and deburring by hand, and uniforming primer pockets has all but been eliminated with all the new electronic gadgets. I say thank God for innovation.

bigedp51
October 18, 2011, 10:15 AM
99.9% of all safety warnings seen on everything today is legalese CYA speak.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Cigarette_Warning.gif

How many of you were issued one of these. :eek:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6869.jpg

snuffy
October 18, 2011, 10:49 AM
THINK! use your brain for something else besides repeating myth, supposition and safety warnings based on some lawyer.

If you don't want to think, then stop reading right now. What is going to degrade powder INSIDE a brass casing while being tumbled? As RC said, it is similar to a plastic, pretty hard and dense. Then it is coated with graphite to make it flow better and dissipate static electricity. Graphite is used to lubricate things, it's very slippery.

Some say it's going to grind itself into dust! Umm, the inside of a brass casing is smooth. The powder itself is slippery, whats going to "grind" it up? Do you include some sort of abrasive in with your powder charge?

As for the scaredy pants supposition that a bullet tip will fire a primer while in a tumbler, again THINK, or maybe a better term would be "reason it out". The firing pin in a bolt action rifle has a heavily compressed spring that is released by the trigger sear. It needs to be heavily compressed to reduce lock time,(the amount of time from release by the sear to the ignition of the primer). The shorter the lock time, the more accurate the rifle. That firing pin is a sharp but rounded point under a lot of speed and pressure. It's also made of steel. Where in a tumbler does that condition exist?

Bullet tips are 1 lead, 2 copper, 3 plastic, and 4 copper plated steel. The plated steel is the only one with the necessary hardness to do the job of setting off a primer. BUT where is the force? Watch a tumbler with brass in it, it's rolling gently around from the bottom to the top then keeps making the cycle. Listen! Do you hear the cases clinking together? If you do, you have too many in there. A drum type of tumbler MAY have more case-to-case contact, but never enough to fire a primer.

I hear that common sense is dead, I thought no, I still have it but maybe it's dieing elsewhere. These discussions about tumbling live ammo always come down to two very opposed sides to the discussion. People with closed minds that don't bother to think or reason stay convinced they're right to not do it. Fine, but I will still remove lube from the .223 ammo that comes out of my D-650 by tumbling them for 20 minutes. Or to put a shine back on old ammo that's tarnished.

JohnM
October 18, 2011, 11:01 AM
So, what's the picture of an old powder thermometer for?
All they were for was knowing the temperature of the powder in large artillery using bagged charges.
It was needed for calculating fire control.
Doesn't have much relevance to reloading small arms ammunition. :D

snuffy
October 18, 2011, 11:35 AM
So, what's the picture of an old powder thermometer for?
All they were for was knowing the temperature of the powder in large artillery using bagged charges.
It was needed for calculating fire control.
Doesn't have much relevance to reloading small arms ammunition.

He's grasping at straws trying to support his extreme claims of safety.

It's a well known fact that the temperature of ammo has a direct relation to how much pressure a load will develop. Target ammo left out in the sun can become dangerous if it's near max, then gets too hot. Also, if left in a hot chamber too long.

That has nothing to do with tumbling ammo though!:cool::scrutiny:

bigedp51
October 18, 2011, 12:33 PM
THINK! use your brain for something else besides repeating myth, supposition and safety warnings based on some lawyer.

"THINK about it" you got to be kidding, "NOT" one person here who advocates tumbling/vibrating ammunition has the test equipment to validate their claims.

Why would the Sierra reloading manual tell you not to tumble/vibrate ammunition when they only sell bullets. The reason is very simple because they have a testing laboratory and pressure measuring equipment.

I spent 38 years working at a military depot with the last 25 years as a Quality Control Inspector on military equipment. I do not tumble/vibrate my loaded ammunition because military ammunition is tested "BEFORE" it is shipped back to storage depots. If the ammunition fails testing requirements it is disposed of and sold as surplus, reclaimed or if the powder is badly degraded it is burned.

The majority of rifle powders have a deterrent coating on the "OUTSIDE" of each grain of powder to control the burning rate........................

And you people want to tumble/vibrate the powder and alter its burning rate, again "WHY" would a bullet manufacture tell you not to tumble/vibrate loaded ammunition when they do not manufacture or sell loaded ammunition. :rolleyes:

"BUT" they do have test equipment to back up their claims. ;)

And Inspectors carry thermometers to test and verify the temperature in ammo storage bunkers. :eek:

jcwit
October 18, 2011, 12:41 PM
snuffy, SNUFFY, you and I may not agree on every little thing, which is understandable but reading your above 2 posts I see that common sense IS actually still out there, even in WI.

Best
jcwit

snuffy
October 18, 2011, 01:08 PM
The majority of rifle powders have a deterrent coating on the "OUTSIDE" of each grain of powder to control the burning rate........................

Um, how do you suppose they get those deterrent coatings on the powder? Or the graphite? Uh-huh by tumbling. If tumbling degraded powder, they would have to find a different way to apply those coatings.

Tumbling the shells should produce visible changes to the powder granules. If it were to somehow remove those deterrent coatings, it would show up as dust when the shells that were tumbled were pulled apart. Nothing showed up in our tests.

"THINK about it" you got to be kidding, "NOT" one person here who advocates tumbling/vibrating ammunition has the test equipment to validate their claims.

You are correct. So we use the equipment we do have. A tumbler, visual inspection, and a chronograph while shooting groups. If the powder had changed it's burn rate, even though it could not be seen, the velocity would have increased. It did NOT! Change it's burn rate or appearance. Conclusion; tumbling is safe and does no harm to the ammo.

RhinoDefense
October 18, 2011, 01:10 PM
"NOT" one person here who advocates tumbling/vibrating ammunition has the test equipment to validate their claims.
We have tested it, have the equipment to do so, and have found tumbling live ammunition will not alter burn characteristics of gun powder. You will not tumble off coatings. How do you think gun powder is manufactured? That's right, by tumbling components together.

bigedp51
October 18, 2011, 02:32 PM
Its all very clear now...........

1. Ignore the written warnings of the professionals and firearms industry.

2. Believe the amateur ammunition testers who do not have labratory test equipment.

That sound just like..............."Trust me the check is in the mail" :rolleyes:

"An amateur (French amateur "lover of", from Old French and ultimately from Latin amatorem nom. amator, "lover") is generally considered a person attached to a particular pursuit, study, or science, without pay and often without formal training."

I have to go now, I have to tumble/vibrate my tinfoil hat. :what:

JohnM
October 18, 2011, 02:47 PM
1. Ignore the written warnings of the professionals and firearms industry.

2. Believe the amateur ammunition testers who do not have labratory test equipment

Why won't you direct us to some of these written studies and reports so we can read them ourselves?

You said Sierra cautions against tumbling loaded ammo in their reloading manual, where?
I just bought a new one a few months ago and can't find such a statement.

You said all powder containers are marked "do not shake".
I pulled cans of powder off the shelf till I tired of it.
Not a single one had such a warning.

There are writings all over the place about "possibilities" and "may happens".

Where are the facts?

Funshooter45
October 18, 2011, 04:12 PM
This is an entertaining thread. :)

I have never tumbled loaded ammo just because I never felt the need to do so.

But now...

Well, what can I say? I'm just going to HAVE to go tumble some of my loaded ammo. Why? I guess I'm just addicted to danger ya know? Living on the edge... adrenaline junkie... thrill seeker. Speaking as The World's Most Interesting Man, I just have to experience all the dangers this world has to offer. :D

jcwit
October 18, 2011, 05:27 PM
Here's a solution:

If you wish to tumble your reloads, go for it, very unlikely anything will happen.

If you do not wish to tumble your reloads, don't, there's always a possibility something might happen.

For what its worth I'm in the first group, its highly more likely I'm in more danger driving to and from the range, and thats a KNOWN fact.

Funshooter45
October 18, 2011, 05:38 PM
For what its worth I'm in the first group, its highly more likely I'm in more danger driving to and from the range, and thats a KNOWN fact.

Well, that's true. But you would look pretty ridiculous toting all your stuff along the highway if you chose to walk to the range. :)

jcwit
October 18, 2011, 05:43 PM
I've looked pretty ridiculous many times during my 68 years. Walking would not even be an option as I'm disabled, and walking is out.

Also it still would be more likely getting hit walking down the road than getting injured tumbling loaded ammo. JMO

RustyFN
October 18, 2011, 06:44 PM
There are warnings not to put live ammunition in your case tumblers.

There are warnings not to send text messages on your phone while driving.

There are warnings not to drink and drive.

There are warnings not to lube your ammo and excess bolt thrust.

And right now at http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ there is a person giving out reloading information at this website. The problem is this person doesn't have a reloading press or even cast bullets.

At another website a psychic forum member told me I needed lasik eye surgery.

Sooner or later the drunk driver sending text messages on his phone is going to run head on into a brick wall.

Did any of you read about "NOT" filling your gas cans on the tailgate of trucks with plastic bed liners and the buildup of static electricity and the resulting fires.

Lets see these tumblers have rubber pads on the bottom of the tumbler and are not grounded and static electricity can build up in the tumbler bowl.

Have any of you ever refueled an aircraft, the aircraft and the refueling source are grounded to the same grounding point and the refueling source is grounded to the aircraft.

And then you have people who ignore printed warnings because they think nothing will happen to them.

How many case tumblers have a three prong plug? Go ahead and keep playing with matches.

This is nothing more than arrogance of the highest order........

Its all very clear now...........

1. Ignore the written warnings of the professionals and firearms industry.

2. Believe the amateur ammunition testers who do not have labratory test equipment.

Biged if I can ask a quick question, are you even a reloader/handloader?

bigedp51
October 18, 2011, 07:32 PM
1. Commercial ammunition is "tumbled" and never comes anywhere near a vibrating cartridge case cleaner.

2. You preformed a very small limited test to make your conclusions, and your type testing would never satisfy a testing laboratory with all it test equipment.

3. By simply Googling this subject I found tests done in other forums where it was concluded it was unsafe to tumble/vibrate loaded ammunition because they obtained powder dust/residue from their test cartridges.

4. Your tumbling experiment may have satisfied a few of you, but you have not satisfied myself and many, many other people who have done research on this subject also.

5. Your statements are no different than the people in forums who tell you to lube your cartridge cases to fireform them but none of them have the test equipment to back up their claims.

You are told not to do something and yet you go ahead and ignore the warnings and then have the nerve to tell other people its perfectly safe to do so. OK men smoke em' if you got em' :rolleyes:

A "WARNING" from the Sierra reload manual.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/tumble-a.jpg

A "WARNING" from the United States Army.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dontlube.jpg

OK men, smoke em" if you got em" (it will only give you little benign tumors I promise) :what:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Cigarette_Warning.gif

jcwit
October 18, 2011, 07:42 PM
Whatever you say Ed.

If you do not wish to tumble your reloads, don't, there's always a possibility something might happen. I'm in more danger driving to and from the range, and thats a KNOWN fact.

JohnM
October 18, 2011, 07:51 PM
I've had enough.
BTW biged, I guess you wouldn't mind then if I light up while I watch how you reload?

bigedp51
October 18, 2011, 07:53 PM
Biged if I can ask a quick question, are you even a reloader/handloader?

For over 40 years and I don't use a paper clip to check for thinning in the web area.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7193.jpg

I even have a sense of humor, at Accurate Shooter.com someone stated he used a click adjustable torque wrench on his reloading press to get "uniform" neck tension with his Lee Collet dies.

My reply was "I can't get mine to click, now what do I do?" :rolleyes:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7173.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7167.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6526.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6390.jpg

How about some reduced loads for the .303 British. ;)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP4691.jpg

Just please, please, please don't tell fguffey I have a feeler gage. :rolleyes:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP4394.jpg

snuffy
October 18, 2011, 07:53 PM
A "WARNING" from the United States Army.

The subject of this thread is tumbling loaded ammo, NOT whether to lube shells before firing them. In fact, the main reason to tumble my ammo it to REMOVE the oil/case lube.

OK men, smoke em" if you got em" (it will only give you little benign tumors I promise)

Smoking? Haven't smoked for 30 years, I do believe it can kill you. In case you grasp at another straw to support your position, I haven't had a drink in 28 years.

EddieNFL
October 18, 2011, 08:04 PM
About seven or eight years ago, during an identical discussion, I contacted every powder manufacturer I could find. Three responded and assured me I could NOT alter powder burn characteristics by tumbling. No maybes, possiblys or even you'll shoot your eye outs.

Spent a lot of years handling explosives. I was always more afraid of forklift drivers.

MattTheHat
October 18, 2011, 08:11 PM
Can modern powders be degraded by tumbling? Absolutely! All you have to do is tumble it for several hundred hours continuously. Powder is not uniformly hard, so if you tumble it long enough, there is going to be some *slight* breakage. Tumble for a few hundred more hours and it will degrade even further. Do it long enough and the powder will degrade into a...powder and it will become more dangerous than in its original powdered state. No, wait!

Tumble for a couple thousand hours and the powder *might* degrade enough that the ammo velocity *might* increase above the mean velocity of otherwise identical but un-tumbled ammo.

I don't personally tumble live ammo. But I suppose if my mother-in-law announced a visit complete with ammo inspection, I could safely shine up all that I needed.

-Matt

bigedp51
October 18, 2011, 08:11 PM
The subject of this thread is tumbling loaded ammo

The "subject" of this thread has degenerated down to who ignores safety warnings because they think they are smarter than the firearms industry, the reloading manufactures and the companies who make vibrating "case" cleaners.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/casecleaner.jpg

The last line in the warning........

DO NOT attempt to clean loaded ammunition under ANY conditions. :eek:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/rcbsammowarning.jpg

MattTheHat
October 18, 2011, 08:15 PM
Dear God, Ed! What ever possessed you to duct tape a torque wrench to your reloading press? If that duct tape fails, the metallic wrench could strike the press causing a spark! :)

(The humor of the pic wasn't lost on me. That's funny stuff right there, I don't care who you are. Well done.)

-Matt

jcwit
October 18, 2011, 08:27 PM
The "subject" of this thread has degenerated down to who ignores safety warnings because they think they are smarter than the firearms industry, the reloading manufactures and the companies who make vibrating "case" cleaners.

No Ed, this thread had degenerated into nothing more than an argument between you and other opposing parties that combined have many more years experience in reloading than you claim to have, possibly even centuries more experience.

Thats what this thread has become and nothing more!

Dentite
October 18, 2011, 08:33 PM
Ed,

Do you own any guns that state in the owners manual to not use reloads? Do you use reloads in those guns?

bigedp51
October 18, 2011, 08:43 PM
No Ed, this thread had degenerated into nothing more than an argument between you and other opposing parties that combined have many more years experience in reloading than you claim to have, possibly even centuries more experience.

Thats what this thread has become and nothing more!

You mean egos and peer pressure, sorry try another tactic I'm not impressed, I don't tumble loaded ammunition and I don't grease my ammo. (silly me for arguing with the forum "experts") :rolleyes:

Lets see if the respected web site and forum at Accurate Shooter.com isn't good enough for you how about what Varmint Al has to say about it.

"POLISHING BRASS.... Smooth and uniform case mouths are very important in producing accurate reloads. Therefore, I don't polish my carefully prepared brass in a tumbler. During polishing, the case mouths are hammered against the other cases in the tumbler. The hammering rolls over a small lip or burr on the ID and OD of each case mouth. This peening process also locally work hardens the brass. These tiny rolled-over rings of brass at the case mouths are harder than the rest of the annealed neck. These rings and tiny peen marks are very obvious on new brass. If you look at your nice shiny cleaned cases out of the tumbler, you will see the battered case mouths! I have heard that some people tumble their loaded ammo to clean it and, with a bullet in place, the case mouths would be protected from the hammering. I haven't tried it. CAUTION: There is a serious problem with tumbling loaded ammo. The coating on the powder grains, that controls the burn rate, could be abraded and this would change the powder's characteristics. If you were loading ammo near maximum, after tumbling, you might have created a dangerous pressure problem. I merely wipe each of my reloads clean with a cloth towel to remove all of the grease and dirt. For my "fitted neck" cases, I polish the neck OD and shoulder with a "Krazy" brand polishing cloth (any silver or brass polishing cloth would work) or a bit of Flitz Metal Polish on a cloth before each reload. I swab out the neck ID with a cotton cleaning swab to remove the carbon and dirt. Keeping that case mouth smooth can't be over stressed."

http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm

"possibly even centuries more experience"

Good God almighty the vibrating case cleaners are 100 years old already...........

Wait a minute, I need to put my hip waders on now, it's really getting deep. :neener:

jcwit
October 18, 2011, 08:54 PM
So varmintal.com is now the Holy Grail of reloading? Or accurateshooter for that matter?

Neh, don't think so.

One more time:

If you do not wish to tumble your reloads, don't, there's always a possibility something might happen. I'm in more danger driving to and from the range, and thats a KNOWN fact.

cfullgraf
October 18, 2011, 08:57 PM
Hey guys, don't stop now. this is more entertaining than Leno.

jcwit
October 18, 2011, 08:58 PM
The pay isn't near as good tho.

steelhawk
October 18, 2011, 09:16 PM
I don't go outside because I am afraid of being hit by a meterorite, but I have tumbled live rounds before. :)

I had a bunch of .45 ACP and a few had been handled by someone with sweaty hands and left fingerprints that had been there for years. I tumbled them for about 30 minutes. I checked them a couple of times during the process so I wouldn't overdo it.

Larry Ashcraft
October 18, 2011, 09:33 PM
Enough.

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