NAA Guardian .380 Problem


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usnavymasterchief
January 29, 2004, 08:55 AM
My son's NAA Guardian .380 is finicky about what he feeds it. It seems to operate best on Win Silvertip Hollow Points or most brands of ball ammo.
BUT and this is a big BUT, no matter what he feeds it, it will stovepipe the last round in the magazine, every time.
It's his wife's carry piece and he is concerned about it's reliability. I have searched other forums and it seems a lot of other folks experience the same problem.
Any one out there know of a possible fix for this or does it have to make a trip back to the factory?
:banghead: :cuss: :fire:

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000Buck
January 29, 2004, 09:40 AM
I have a Guardian in .32, and it does the same thing(randomly though, not always on the last round). I sent it back to the factory, they did some polishing, spring replacement, etc, and it still does the same thing, except with Silver tip. I gave up and just carry a revolver now.

Byron
January 29, 2004, 09:57 AM
I encountered the same situation and also found that the magazine release was easy to push on firing dropping it. Thankfully, it was not my pistol. I was shooting ball ammo. Byron

Michael
January 29, 2004, 10:17 AM
Master Chief,

These little guns operate that way pretty much all the time as they do not have ejectors. When the extractor pulls the fired casing from the chamber, the live round underneath, contained within the magazine, moves upward under pressure from the magazine spring, thus, helping push the fired casing up as the extractor pulls it out. When the last round is fired, there is not a round in the magazine to push against the fired casing, which, commonly, gets stuck in a classic stovepipe malfunction. The condition is inherent to the gun based on its simplicity of design.

I have a Guardian in .32 ACP. Rarely, the last casing will eject, but more commonly it gets caught between the slide breechface and the chamber. I don't worry about it for two reasons. First, I don't expect to be performing speed reloads should I actually need to use it. If things have degraded to the point I'm using this gun, I am at that stage of empty the mag in their ear and run away. Second, I have practiced clearing the stoppage, just as I would with my duty weapon, and have had no problems in ejecting the spent casing, and then switching the empty magazine for a full one. These are nice little guns, and I have had no problem with mine through hundreds of rounds, and four years of carry and practice. I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Michael

usnavymasterchief
January 29, 2004, 10:27 AM
MICHAEL, Thanks for the very informative answer, I sincerely appreciate it.
His problem is slightly different from what you have experienced, his will not feed the last live cartridge, number six in the magazine.
If it were my gun, I would do as you have done and learn to deal with the problem. On the other hand, it's his wife's carry piece so I think I'll recommend to him to sell or trade the NAA and find a light weight S&W or Taurus .38 SPL revolver for her.
Again I thank you very much for the info.

Matt Sutton
January 29, 2004, 10:34 AM
From http://www.naaminis.com/naagdfaq.html

I have read/experienced that the case from the last spent round occasionally gets stuck between the slide and the frame. Is this a product 'failure'? Should I be concerned?

No, frankly, not at all. Yes, we are aware of, and understand the causes of, this condition. Yes, it is not an uncommon occurrence. No, we do not believe it represents a performance failure and we do not intend to try to 'correct' the condition.

The design of this pistol does not include an ejector (not to be confused with an extractor), but relies on the following action of a fresh cartridge, as it is moving up the magazine stack and towards the chamber, to push the spent extracted case out of the breech. When the magazine is empty and there is no following cartridge to exert this pressure, the spent case may simply be trapped by the slide returning forward (the slide is not designed to remain open after the last round).

When a full magazine is inserted to replace the empty one, the slide must, in any/every event ('stovepipe' or not) be re-racked to chamber a fresh round. During this process, the spent case simply falls freely out of the breech and the pistol returns to battery - as though the condition had never existed. (Please note that we are not attempting to excuse any stovepipe of a live round. If that condition exists with any of our pistols, we will be happy to rework the gun to eliminate that failure).

ajacobs
January 29, 2004, 10:36 AM
For what it is worth, NAA will not acept it for waranty work on a last round stove pipe as they consider it part of the design as mentioned above. I have both the .32 and .380. I don't carry a reload when I carry it so it doesn't bother me but if I did, all I would have to do is drop the magazine, insert a new one and rack the slide just like normal and it clears itself. SO for me it is a non issue. While I respect that this is not confidence inspiring. I think that is based on experiences with other handguns and practice would overcome any hesitation about the design. But obviously there is nothing more important than someone's love one and if they want to change obviously the should do it.

HogRider
January 29, 2004, 12:11 PM
I have a Guardian .380 since last May. Bought it new. During the initial break in period I had all kinds of not feeding and stove piping problems. But it only happened with PMC ammo. After about 50 - 60 rounds those problems went away and since then it has fed Hollow points and FMJs just fine and never has given me the stove piping at the last round problem. I have shot a little over 200 rounds through it and have not had any issues with it since.

usnavymasterchief
January 29, 2004, 01:03 PM
MATT SUTTON, If you are a company rep for NAA your attitude sucks!!!!
People pay over $400 for a compact pistol they should be able to feel confident that it will work as advertised. Where does it say in your published owner's manual that the last spent casing will probably stovepipe and that's an OK normal condition. You say you are aware of the problem, why don't you try to fix it?
I won't trust an NAA Semi-auto as far as I can throw one and if your attitude is representative of the company you work for then I shall do all I know how to do to get the word out that your product does not live up to it's advertising and that The Guardian series is a poor investment. We bought your product because it was made in the USA, dam shame that off shore products perform better than yours. Even the little guy, Kel-Tec, will at least try to fix their problems but you say you have no intention of trying to fix your guns problems. You don't have to be a gunsmith to figure out that Kel-Tec is a better investment than NAA.
You say you have no intention of trying to correct the problem and that you don't intend to stand behind your product? Well then who do I have to speak to to get my $440 back, certainly not you I hope!

ajacobs
January 29, 2004, 01:09 PM
Opps, me and Matt must have posted at about the same time. I don't believe he is nessesarily a representive of the company, he just cut and pasted from their faq section on their webpage.

Just becuase it doesn't funtion like you would expect it to with other designs doesn't mean that it is broken. You have to give up something when you make a pistol that small kel tec 380's don't lock back on an empty mag, so the reloading procedure for a keltec 380 and a Naa 380 are the same regarless of the fact that it may have a stovepipe in there. It doesn't inhibit performance, it isn't broken, as it wasn't designed to clear the last round.

usnavymasterchief
January 29, 2004, 01:16 PM
MR AJACOBS That's B/S and you know it. If a product doesn't work because of a poor design, IT SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE MARKET PLACE!!!

ajacobs
January 29, 2004, 01:20 PM
Well I would respectfully sugest that in this case it doesn't work for what you had in mind. They have never hidden the fact that it does this with the .380 models, every mention of them in a magazine that I have read has included it and it is listed right on their website. To me it would be the same as arguing that keltec should fix the problem on the .380 with them not having a slide lock. They never had intended it to have one. If I didn't want a gun without a slide lock, I shouldn't have bought it. If the customer wants a gun with an ejector they shouldn't choose a naa.

Matt Sutton
January 29, 2004, 01:31 PM
usnavymasterchRecommendief,
That was really beautiful. I am all misty eyed.
I believe that you are ASSuming that because my profile says Utah, I work for NAA.
I merely copied a paragraph from NAA's site in an attempt to help a fellow forum member.
I recommend that you cut your caffeine intake, and don't carry a round in the chamber. :what: LOL!!!!

TODD3465
January 29, 2004, 01:42 PM
Very interesting reading.

I don't think I'm going to buy any product from a company that says- Our gun dose not eject the last round but that's OK 'cause it's just the design of the gun.

I was considering that as a pocket CCW but not now. Any weapon that will leave a spent or live shell in the action in a position were it can possibly interfer with it's further function is unacceptable to me.

usnavymasterchief
January 29, 2004, 01:49 PM
MATT Your post said "WE" which indicates that you are a participant. The only ASSumption I made was that you portrayed yourself to be a company rep. Perhaps you should have indicated to the forum that you were copying a portion of the NAA website and not tried to come across as some psuedo expert. I believe that you are not as SMART AS(S) you would like the world to think you are.

No Quarter
January 29, 2004, 01:58 PM
Ok Master Chief,

So - the last spent round stovepipes?

Please explain why that is a problem?

You are able to expend all the rounds in the gun in a reliable fashion.
You can easily clear the round by retracting the slide OR
You can also easily clear the round by inserting a new magazine.

Either way, you have either shot what you intended to shoot OR
Can clear the round OR
Can isert another magazines, rack the slide and keep shooting away - All without the gun hiccuping at all.


it is not a problem at all - merely a function of how these guns work.

I own a NAA .380 and have no issues with the last round thing. It is not a problem!

If you can come up with a single scenario where the last spent casing stovepiping compromises the function of this weapon for its intended purpose (pocket carry self defense gun) I sure as hell would love to hear about it.

BTW - I have about 500 rounds through my little gun and it a wonderful weapon.

Do a little googling or search these forums and Glocktalk about the Guardian pistols. you'll learn a lot and it might help to cool you off a bit.

Their is nothing wrong with these little guns at all.

NQ

Matt Sutton
January 29, 2004, 01:59 PM
MATT Your post said "WE" which indicates that you are a participant. The only ASSumption I made was that you portrayed yourself to be a company rep. Perhaps you should have indicated to the forum that you were copying a portion of the NAA website and not tried to come across as some psuedo expert. I believe that you are not as SMART AS(S) you would like the world to think you are.

And I suppose you think that I am claiming to be you in this post?
:rolleyes: ROTFLMAO!!

usnavymasterchief
January 29, 2004, 02:13 PM
Good Night MATT crawl back under your rock and go nite nites

usnavymasterchief
January 29, 2004, 02:20 PM
NO QUARTER, If you had read my answer to Michael's post, you would have learned that my son's gun stovepipes the last LIVE round.
You guys sure are going for the jugular today aren't you?
I might ad that this thread was progressing nicely until you and Matt decided it was time to scold me for voicing a legitimate complaint.

Matt Sutton
January 29, 2004, 02:25 PM
usnavymasterchief,
I apologize for poking fun at you, and I forgive you for making a hasty and hot-headded response to my post that completely ignored the fact I cited the source of my post and put it in quotes. I realize that you might not be famillar with UBB codes and their meanings.

A little reasearch goes a long way. The NAA Guardian is a rip off of the Seecamp, which is generally held in higher regard and commands a higher price. Not suprisingly, the Seecamp also jams on the last round. I think the point that is trying to be made here is that your problem is not a problem in the minds of the designers. You may not like it, and that's okay. I didn't care for that behaviour either, so I bought a Kahr PM9 that came with a fully functional ejector.

Shoot well,
Matt

usnavymasterchief
January 29, 2004, 02:27 PM
To those who offered kind advise and assistance I thank you.
To the quasi experts who have little or no idea what they are talking about, I will refuse to dignify your comments with an answer so don't waste your time.
Mr Moderator I am requesting your comments please.

JPM70535
January 29, 2004, 02:28 PM
Speaking as a disinterested bystander, ( I don't own a NAA 380 nor do I plan to purchase one in the future. If I was contemplating the purchase ofa pocket 380, based solely on what I have read here, it would most definitely not be an NAA. Auto pistols are not supposed to stovepipe on any round being extracted, not just the last one.

It is a defecctive design and should either be recalled, or removed from the market. Better yet, if enough gunowners read this thread, and just stop buying the damn thing, the problem will no longer exist as NAA is not going nto produce a pistol they can't sell.

usnavymasterchief
January 29, 2004, 02:38 PM
JPM, I thank you Sir and completely agree. Thanks again John

Walt Sherrill
January 29, 2004, 02:53 PM
Seems like I remember an American Gunsmith Institute article some time back about a fix for this problem.

And if I remember correctly, it involved someone adding a longitudinal raised section on the follower to raise the last cartridge just a bit. You could probably experiment with JB Weld, and make a small seam that can be reduced with a Dremel.

I'll try digging out the old issue. If I can find it. If I can remember.

No Quarter
January 29, 2004, 03:51 PM
Sorry Master Chief - I blame my misread on the fact that I am a former High Velocity Projectile interceptor (Marine - You know hoe ignorant us poor dumb grunts are :))

Please accept my apologies - the last live round stovepiping sounds like it could be fixed by trying a new magazine. NAA does indeed have TERRIFIC customer service and I guarantee they will get the pistol working right. If you call them and tell them of the problem, they'll will more than likely be happy to either send you a couple new magazines or have you sen the gun in for some work.

NQ

George Hill
January 29, 2004, 04:38 PM
usnavymasterchief - I can understand how you are frustrated because you were not aware that a Last Round Stovepipe is the way the Guardian operates. I can see where you are coming from. However, I can not see where you get off insulting the members of the forum for telling you that this is the way it is.
If you have ever researched the Guardian, even just a bit, or read just about any article about the Guardians... you would have found that this is the case... like it or not - that's just the way it is.... But because you don't like, doesn't give you the right to insult any board member. It seems you are only fishing for others who agree with your frustration... especially since you wont dignify a dissenting opinion with a response. Very nice, Chief. And you're the one talking about attitude? Please.
I'm going to close this thread right now, leaving you the suggestion to use the "Search" function once in awhile.
If you have any further blustering to do, you can bluster at me via PM or E-Mail.

And no, I don't work for NAA either. Hey, if your that pissed and hate it so much, I'll buy it from you for a Hundred Bucks... (All the cash I have right now)

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